Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Assistance requested at Fringe Theories Noticeboard[edit]

Assistance from one or more Admins and any experienced editors is requested with issues related to this discussion at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard (yes there is such a thing). Short synopsis; we have an editor who has created around 160 articles, and almost all of the ones we have looked at so far have major problems. We over at the tin foil hat noticeboard are sending out an SOS. Any help is greatly appreciated. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Propose a Topic-Ban on New Articles in Article Space[edit]

I propose that this editor be topic-banned from creating new articles in article space (rather than via the AFC review process), since he or she is cluttering article space with a large number of articles that need deleting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Support as nominator. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Holy crap batman--v/r - TP 17:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support The combination of refusal to communicate with other editors, fringe topics (need less on here, not more) and the obvious vast amounts of original research. Their intent does not seem to be malicious, but they've chosen the wrong platform. All this belongs in their blog. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 17:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support seems pretty obvious that these articles need to go through AfC and that the user isn't willing to do that without some strong handed encouragement. CombatWombat42 (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment/Question How will this go any better at WP:AFC? Some of the articles appear to me, a non expert in Hindu material, to be potentially direct translations form a worthy book or set of texts. I am wondering whether it might not be 'our' problem that 'we' cannot understand them easily as submissions in clearer English. A comment from an experienced, perhaps immersed, editor would be relevant to this discussion before moving to a draconian apparent remedy. For example, if they be direct translations or quotations from learned texts then we should, surely, treat them in an identical manner to other such texts an the editor should be granted the same courtesies as are extended to editors creating articles in other faiths/disciplines.
This material is arcane, certainly, but is it proper or improper that it is in Wikipedia as articles? If proper then there is no issue save for our understanding the material. If improper then remedies are already available to you, ranging from deletion through to blocking the editor. Fiddle Faddle 18:05, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
"is it proper or improper that it is in Wikipedia as articles?" Yes, in the way it is written. It presents material from Hindu astrology as uncontested fact. We don't do that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
@Timtrent: A host of reasons: 1) AFC space isn't indexed by search engines, 2) AFCs arn't searched by our search bar without going to more advanced options, 3) AFCs can be deleted easier by CSD guidelines, 4) Editors in AFC space review it before the first 2 things limitations get removed, 5) AFC has a giant "THIS IS A DRAFT" banner.--v/r - TP 18:23, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
If it is not proper for the articles to be here, and I suspected it was not for the reasons stated by AndyTheGrump, might the correct route not be a bulk AfD? If it is not proper then AFC is not the place for them either, surely? I come back to my thoughts that one does not need extraordinary measures to deal with this. I have never heard of a topic ban against creation of new mainspace articles and I feel intellectually against it for a great many reasons. Fiddle Faddle 18:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I am cementing and formalising my opinion as a firm Oppose. I have made a asmall edit to my original text, adding the word "clearer" as a modifier for "English"Fiddle Faddle 18:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Timtrent (Fiddlefaddle). Look at this revision of Rasasvada, for example, which Aditya soni had created, and nobody else had edited it except one editor adding a single cleanup tag. It's quite difficult to read and understand, but that's because I'm completely unfamiliar with Indian philosophy; the article appears to have solid sources, and the difficult-to-understand comes partly from the author's way of writing, which makes me suspect that the author isn't fluent in English. As a result, I can form only two conclusions: either it's a decent article on a specialised topic, warranting only some wording cleanup, or its problems are profound enough that only a specialist can understand them. Neither one warrants the ban that's proposed here: if it's a decent article, we shouldn't sanction the guy, and if a specialist is required, the article will sail straight through AFC because people over there aren't specialists in Indian philosophy — AFC is good for filtering problems that anyone can understand, not things like this. Either levy no sanctions at all, or prohibit creation through AFC as well; if the nominator were to remove the AFC creation option, I would be neutral. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
In the very first section, he has it entirely based on a primary source, Second Quantization (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as much too broad. If one were to prepend "For the large majority of Hindus" to most of these articles they would be indistinguishable to me from Holy Spirit (Christianity) which begins: "For the large majority of Christians" and then is entirely based on WP:INUNIVERSE sources. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 19:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I do not think the editor in question is being malicious here. But whether intentionally or not, the serious problems with so many of these articles is creating an enormous amount of work for everyone else. The FTN Board is not exactly one of the more well traveled ones and we just don't have enough regulars to deal with well over a hundred suspect articles. (Sometimes we are stretched to handle even normal posts and issues that pop up.) Beyond which the editor's refusal to engage with the community and take some advice on board or show some regard for standards and consensus makes it almost impossible not to see more problems down the road without the new article creation ban. In short, I support the ban because I believe that without it we are going to continue to see the creation of questionable articles on a scale that will further severely tax the limited resources of the community to fix or delete. I am still trying to come up with a sane way of dealing with 160 articles that need to be checked and possibly deleted or mass migrated somewhere. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:02, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Changing position to Oppose based on compelling arguments from several editors, as well as closer examination of the editor's record by Salimfadhley, whose judgment I trust, and who concluded the issues are likely not as widespread or serious as initially thought. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Mixed view here. This seems like good content and it seems clear that the user knows a lot about Hindu astrology. The real problem here is that the articles themselves are badly written. Readers of WP should not have to be experts in Hindu astrology to get through even a single paragraph, but that's kind of the issue we have here. I think this user's material and knowledge are valuable but the articles he is making should spend some time in userspace being edited a bit. It doesn't have to be perfect by any means, but it has to at least look like it was written in English. Would anyone be available to help mentor or copy-edit this content? I can do some work with the grammar myself but I would like someone (perhaps from Wikiproject Mythology, Wikiproject Hinduism, or Wikiproject Astrology) to help out since they might have familiarity with the information and can offer more direct constructive criticism. Alicb (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - A ban from creating new articles related to this topic might give this editor an opportunity to improve the existing articles to a point where they meet the WP:NFRINGE standard. I would prefer this than to have to manually review the hundreds of articles on this subject. My greater concern is that this editor feels that this subject (Hindu Astrology) is somehow exempt from the normal rules that govern articles about religious topics in Wikipedia. As a result we have over a hundred pages most of which would never have got past AFC review, this is a prime example [1]. The comment about Einstein in the lede is an automatic 5 on the Crackpot Index. Let's not allow articles about Hinduism to be of lower quality than articles about other religions. If editors were writing such blatant gobbledygook about Christianity or Judaism I think we'd be quick to delete it. I think we need to be consistent in our standards. --Salimfadhley (talk) 22:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Why do you think this would get stopped at AFC? It appears to have decent sourcing, and to someone unfamiliar with the subject, the only problem is the comparatively poor English. Most people at AFC are totally ignorant of Hinduism and other Indian philosophy (not complaining; I am too), so if an article's not badly sourced, they have no reason to object to it. Nyttend (talk) 02:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Regular AFC reviewers tend to have sufficient clue to recognize when to call upon subject specialists from relevant WikiProjects for assistance. Such requests for help are routinely done for drafts about highly technical, arcane or obscure subjects that are hard for non-specialists to evaluate. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't take an expert in Hindu Astrology to realise that it wasn't "an evil and ruinous yoga" that made Einstein perform poorly in his studies, Second Quantization (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support, definitely. Miniapolis 23:09, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - I have been asked to participate in this discussion but I do not know where to begin from.

I started my exercise of creating new pages by first locating the most important and relevant topics that had not been earlier dealt with by any contributor, and having done that one by one I took up those topics, worked on them and created the pages on Indian philosophy and Hindu astrology, the subjects that are known to me. Nowhere have I expressed my own thoughts or done original research; I have based all information included therein as has been available to me online and in the texts that are in my possession which texts also find an online mention. I never thought my well-intentioned efforts would one day cause the kind of problem they have. As an ardent follower of Indian philosophy I was merely obeying the Vedic instruction that if given the opportunity I should unhesitatingly pass on to others, who are willing, all that I have studied and learnt. Knowledge is the light that reveals the true nature of things and removes ignorance; knowledge purifies the mind, that mind which involves all human beings in duality to suffer the pangs of pleasure and pain. It seems I have failed in this task for I have not been able to convey properly.

Friends, I am not a preacher and I am also not a teacher set in the mold of Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Ramana, Varahamihira, Vaidyanatha or Kalidasa. I am an ordinary human being. Philosophy and astrology are difficult subjects to handle. This I know. They are all the more difficult for those who do not know these subjects. Where to begin from I simply do not know. It was long ago said – "they do not know who know, those who do not know, know" - which paradoxical situation will always remain due to the limitations affecting our thoughts and acts.

It has been nice meeting you all.Aditya soni (talk) 02:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to comment here. I think that you are making a lot of useful contributions of information that is badly needed on Wikipedia. There are a few concerns with language that I think we can address but as long as you provide the sources for the information that you provide (either a link to a website or the names/page numbers of print texts) then that should be good enough for other editors to work on. It may be time to call on the users at Wikiproject Hinduism to take a hand in working on these articles. Alicb (talk) 03:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Dear Alicb, no information in my 160 odd articles is without a direct reference to the source. I have dutifully provided the relevant links to the websites, given the names of the books, their authors and page numbers. I have neither promoted myself nor anyone else. There is no problem with the language either, because as far as is possible I have used the same words and expression that has been used by the authors of those very books and articles. Why should there be a problem in accessing those sources, I fail to understand. Moreover, there is already talk of difficulty in handling 100 odd intended AFDs pertaining to the pages I have created, doubt has also been raised about the ability of the editors who had reviewed those pages, and to top it all, my efforts have been termed as utter non-sense and a hoax and therefore already stand summarily dismissed. Then, I do not understand why so much time and effort is now being wasted just to prove my efforts are a bunch of trash. Even if all 160 pages are deleted I stand to lose nothing at all since I have already gained a great deal by way of revision of my knowledge while writing these pages, which revision has served as my Upasana (contemplation). And I am sure some readers must have also gained and improved their knowledge. Through your agency I request for the charade that is being presently played out to end, it is sickening to say the least. Already some very harsh and bad words have been used belittling my efforts, the kind of words I never use; that is enough, there should not be any more of it. There should not be any further delay in deleting my 160 odd articles. I hope you will speak on my behalf and have all 160 pages created by me deleted soon. After the requested deletion is done I shall quit Wikipedia and enjoy my liberation. Nice knowing you.Aditya soni (talk) 05:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
    • the Vedic instruction that if given the opportunity I should unhesitatingly pass on to others, who are willing, all that I have studied and learnt. There is a beautiful passage in the Taittiriya Upanishad (in the ninth Anuvaka) dealing with this. Learn and pass on the knowledge. That is what Wikipedia is about. That is what humanity is all about. But we cannot present the Vedas here without presenting them in the correct (for Wikipedia) form. In the Western phrase, we do not cast pearls before swine, for they will not, cannot understand. More work is needed to aid understanding. For those that are willing. --Pete (talk) 04:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now per Fiddle Faddle/Tim.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Fiddle Faddle/Tim. As a side note, talking about tin foil hats in this context should be blockable. --John (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't see any substantial problem here. It looks like Aditya soni is doing a pretty good job with the sources though a little more explanatory detail in some of the articles would be helpful. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
[2]: They are claiming in wikipedias tone that Einstein did poorly because he had a bad horoscope, and claims that anyone with this horoscope has "has neither knowledge nor wealth, is penurious". Please explain how this is a "pretty good job", Second Quantization (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

super strong support; unless those "opposing" actually pull their fingers out and hold this editor's hand through the process. However, I feel Wikipedia requires WP:COMPETENCE, and it requires its competent editors to be editing competently rather than holding the hands of someone who cannot write a coherent sentence in the forlorn hope that something might be salvageable from the inevitable mess. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Barney, the editor seems to me to have written some very coherent sentences, right here, in this thread. Better, grammatically, than some of the comments from native English speakers on this page, and certainly better than I could do in a language that may not be native to me. Sure, there are problems with English in some of the articles - it's complex content, with difficult translation issues, I'm sure, and it seems it may need someone to help him work through those issues (if he's still willing). It's probably important that he stops adding new articles until that can be worked through, to keep things manageable. Seems we may need someone who is familiar with the subject matter, and that's obviously not you or me. Maybe nobody will come forward to do that. If they do, I suggest it's not up to you or me to tell them how they should volunteer their time. Speaking of which - I thank Aditya soni for the substantial time he has so far donated in an attempt to create and share this content, and I hope we can help clear up any issues. Begoon talk 15:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose any sort of "ban" at this stage, for clarity, per my comments above, in case anyone is "!counting". (Sad reflection on us, in my very humble opinion, that we leap straight into a "ban" vote after one line of non discussion, then try to hold the discussion we should have already had within the !vote. I hope I'm never subjected to that, and I suspect we all hope that for ourselves.) Begoon talk 16:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Comment, Just to clarify - nobody is proposing a 'permaban'. Nobody is proposing to wholesale delete 160 articles which are obviously the result of hard work and research. Some of us are asking this editor to cool it, and respect the norms of notability and sourcing on Wikipedia. I note that at least four of Aditya soni's recently created articles on Hindu Astrology are all subject to AFCs for broadly the same set of reasons: Incomprehensible articles on ultra-niche that are loaded with WP:OR and rely on unreliable occult/esoteric sources. This editor has not yet pledged to do anything differently even in light of the considerable attention criticism in AFD discussions. --Salimfadhley (talk) 14:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Observation: Today I was glad to note that an esteemed editor had approached one page i.e.Rasasvada, with the intention of improving it. But just see what he has done. He has deleted the entire section – "Obstacles to Samadhi and their removal", in which part I have cited Sanskrit passages from Vedantasara that provide definition of the term – "Rasasvada" – in the context of Advaita Vedanta and are the basic reason as to why I decided to create this page. The editor in good faith has extracted the very heart from the body of this essay and killed it. The reason he gives is that the passage is original research based on ancient source. Three drawbacks are evident – 1) the editor does not know Sanskrit language, 2) he does not know who Sadananda was, and 3) he has never read the work of Sadananda titled Vedantasara belonging to mid-15th century, which systemizes Sankara’s Advaita philosophy. Since then, this work has been translated and commented upon by many learned savants. I chose to cite from the translation and commentary by Swami Nikhilananda which was first published in 1931 and which translation and commentary is available online, the reprint I possess is of a recent date. I have conducted no original research.Aditya soni (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
UserAditya soni, I believe that you are acting in good faith, hence any bans or threats of bans may be unwarranted in your case. I have reviewed your older articles and found some of your work on Hinduism and Buddhism in general to be of good quality and potentially useful. I remain concerned about recently created articles such as Trikasthanas (astrology) which as I have previously stated are incomprehensible and fail to articulate any kind of notability according to Wikipedia's standards. None of the sources I was able to verify appear to be particularly important or reliable. None of the sources I could verify seem to deal with the subject matter in any significant depth. The reason I am pointing this out is not to criticize your scholarship, but to encourage you to apply your considerable intellect to an appreciation of Wikipedia's rules. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • support I have mixed feelings about this, but I think in the end something has to be done about in the form of review and guidance. To some degree my issues with the Hindu terminology articles can be ascribed to my lack of familiarity with the material, but I also get the impression that a lot of what I'm reading is slight paraphrasing of near-to-primary source material. It's rather as if our articles on Judaica were constructed from reworded passages of the gemara. It's not an appropriate approach to a general interest encyclopedia. The astrology articles are worse, bordering on incoherency. I've said over and over again that we need people who know the material to write these Indian articles, but the articles need to be actually readable too. Mangoe (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - I was still weighing this one up and believed the editor in question could turn over a new leaf until this comment which is just completely at odds with how WP works and suggest the editor just doesn't get it. An editor has no place here if they refuse to participate in discussion, especially about their own problematic editing. St★lwart111 00:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: Friends, I have already stated that I chose Wikipedia to share, with all those who are willing to know, the knowledge that I had fortunately gained through the intensive study of numerous scriptures and texts, guided by a Guru. For more than two long years I waited and kept on waiting for some good soul to turn up so as to help me improve and expand the contents I had posted. No one turned up. You will agree that most editors who are so very vocal in professing extension of aid, guidance etc., when they do appear on the scene come out with all their guns blazing, firing at will all ammunition that are in their possession ranging from code, technicality, procedure and so forth, in such a discouraging and insulting manner that persons like me who mean no offence are made to feel - "Why have I entered the dangerously dark abyss called Wikipedia, only to be unceremoniously driven out?" At least one really concerned editor ought to have long ago, or even recently, in a polite and purposeful manner pointed out my mistakes and volunteered to help and guide me; then he and I could have happily re-worked and re-written the 160 odd articles bringing them up to the set norms and standards. I would have been only too pleased to do so. But, now too much water has flowed down underneath the bridge, the bridge has collapsed, I have exhausted my patience, there is a very bitter taste in my mouth which I am unable to wash out, and I find my heart bleeding and genuinely crying out goading me to quit Wikipedia the soonest. I am being asked to turn a new leaf; I have failed to understand what is meant by this phrase. I have not rebelled. But, enough is enough. Please, for God’s sake, stop the farce which is being played out at my expense. I was here not to win praise and stars, and later become an Administrator, but all the same I have a feeling someone is being a sadist. I thank you all for allowing me to share my feelings. Be good and help the needy. Allow me to take leave. I had never had an opportunity to meet so many on a single stage; it has been a great learning experience. I have vowed not to create any new page ever.Aditya soni (talk) 03:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support purely for lack of a better alternative. If somebody were to offer to mentor this user, or some such, I would be far better satisfied than with a tban. Essentially, to me the user is eminently competent, but unable to distinguish between what they know and what the general reader can be expected to know; their articles are written for others like themselves. This is also borne out by the lack of wikilinks in their articles. This also raises an unusual sort of NPOV issue; though the articles may be written neutrally, their lack of context, or WP:INUNIVERSE if you will, make them harmful, because the vast majority of readers are not familiar enough with these topics to judge for themselves. To me their English is a trivial concern, and not a factor in voting "support;" there are armies of editors out there with far poorer English. Aditya soni, whichever way this turns out, I suggest you do not take this personally; take this as a break in which you can familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies. A Block is not infinite; it can be appealed, and if you can show that you've addressed these issues it will likely be overturned. Regards. Vanamonde93 (talk) 08:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose It is clear to me that Aditya soni is highly knowledgeable on the topic, but needs to familiarize himself with WP guidelines. A break from creation and a focus on article improvement would be great. However, by the bitter tone of his reply, I am concerned that a tban like this might make him leave WP altogether, which would be pretty bad, as we would be losing an editor with great knowledge on a niche topic. However, I do not see any good alternative. Changed my mind based on discussion at the fringe noticeboard. Kingsindian (talk) 09:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Wikipedia does not come out of this with glory. As Wikipedians we have taken a huge potential step against an inexperienced editor and are causing them grief, a lot of grief.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the way they have approached the creation of articles, they are by no means a vandal, nor disruptive. They simply failed to engage with us in the way we expect usually. We must not have tried hard enough.
Now, we are voting on whether they should be allowed to continue. That appalls me.
Patently, they have a great deal to offer. And, equally patently, we are driving them away.
This started at a fringe noticeboard, which is odd, because Hindu Astrology does not seem to me to be a fringe theory. It seems pretty mainstream to me. The folk there needed the help of an admin, though I am wholly unsure why that was. This type of issue can almost always be handled by experienced editors without invoking the bucket and mop, but here we are, at the big ban hammer board, voting on how much hammer to use.
I am ashamed of our behaviour towards Aditya soni, and feel he deserves an apology, one I am giving him on my own behalf for any hurt I may have inflicted on him myself.
We need to guide him, yes. He needs to be content to accept guidance, yes. Requesting him to use WP:AFC for his next couple of drafts may well be a good idea. Mandating him to do so is not. This whole process is very WP:BITE, and we need to correct this now. Fiddle Faddle 10:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
"we have taken a huge potential step against an inexperienced editor", he has been editing consistently for 2 years and has made nearly 1,700 article edits in that time. That's not new or inexperienced. "they are by no means a vandal, nor disruptive" By doing what they did, they have created a large amount of work for others to fix it by trimming down fringe claims and removing non-notable articles. I brought up the issue of fringe claims with them over a year ago [3], and they didn't even respond to me. Further, they acknowledge that their articles are only of interest to fellow astrologers [4][5], that's pretty much categorically in the face of WP:FRIND. If only astrologers are interested, then there are no independent sources and it's not notable (WP:NFRINGE). You also said, "This started at a fringe noticeboard, which is odd, because Hindu Astrology does not seem to me to be a fringe theory" I take it then you don't understand what a fringe theory is in wikipedia. A fringe theory is something which conflicts with an accepted domain of knowledge but which has no following amongst experts. For astrology that is science. Hindu astrology is fringe for the same reason that creation science is fringe (and creationism is used as an example in WP:FRINGE). Although they have many adherents, in terms of the relevant discipline (science) they have almost no following. "It seems pretty mainstream to me." No doubt there are some indian scientists who believe it (since it is wound up with religious beliefs in India), but science doesn't obey borders. The mainstream in science doesn't accept astrology, and the subset of that in India doesn't either from what I have read of it. Second Quantization (talk)
  • Oppose. [Non-administrator opinion.] I have not examined every article created by Aditya soni but I have extreme difficulty making sense of many of those I did read. I think it is fair to assume from the responses of others that I am not the only one. I reject the assertion that this is simply due to ethnocentrism, or as another editor has suggested elsewhere, a discussion of “my religious nuttery is better than thy religious nuttery”. While I have little experiencing studying the major writings of any religion, including Christianity, I am still able to comprehend articles that touch on obscure topics of a wide variety of religions with much greater ease that this group of articles. The fact that this issue was raised in WP:FTN is irrelevant, as is the issue of whether Hindu astrology is a fringe theory or not. I would have the same opinion if this was brought up in WP:FOOTY. With that said, I oppose a topic ban on Aditya soni. It is apparent from his/her edit history that this general topic is his/her only area of interest within Wikipedia, and a topic ban would ensure that we would loose him/her as an editor. As problematic as I find these articles and as much as I would like to see him/her attempt to work with others, I do not see any history of objectionable behavior (e.g. edit warring to prevent others from trying to fix the articles) that would warrant that action. Location (talk) 17:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
One way in which the issue of whether Hindu Astrology is a fringe theory is very much relevant is with regard to the four articles currently at AfD where editors have raised WP:NFRINGE as a policy reason to delete them, among other reasons: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Equal house system (Hindu astrology), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unmaad yoga (astrology), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reka yoga (astrology) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trikasthanas (astrology). 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
The issue here appears to be whether or not Aditya soni can put together articles - regardless of the topic - that are reliably sourced and somewhat easily comprehended. Location (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Can we concentrate on one article? Trikasthanas (astrology), mentioned above, doesn't seem at all to match what a Wikipedia article should be. It looks more like something I'd find in a book that takes astrology seriously, or on an astrology website. Is this what we want? Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
@Dougweller: I am not sure what you mean by that. You mean the decision should be based primarily on one article? If so, I disagree. If not, as Salimfadhley, who has spent much more time than me on this says, there are many contributions, especially older ones, which are decent, and should be considered as well. Kingsindian (talk) 20:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
@Kingsindian: That's good to hear. I'm not saying base it all on one article, I am asking if we want this one and if it is in any way typical. What do you think of it? Dougweller (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
@Dougweller: Too much detail, very dense, impenetrable to people not familiar with the subject. Probably should be deleted, but I am very inexperienced in such matters. Definitely large sections should be removed. Kingsindian (talk) 21:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support topic ban from creating articles directly in article space. This seems to me very much the kind of thing the Articles for creation review process was created for. If the user creates articles via that process only, it'll be an advantage both for Wikipedia and for themselves. However, in view of the user's goodbye post above, I suppose the issue may be moot. But if they should change their mind about leaving, I do believe we need to insist they use the AFC process. Bishonen | talk 20:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC).
No, we don't need to insist on anything here. This does not even begin to rise to the level you are suggesting. I understand this is your opinion, and I will respect that, but Fiddle Faddle has this correct. We are not really trying very hard and I think a good deal of this is because some editors just don't understand the subjects and don't feel compelled to collaborate. I think that we need more patience with editors. I see no reason for admin intervention or community sanctions here.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - I previously voted support and now continue to support this. Aditya soni is clearly an expert in certain aspects of Hindu culture but feels that this expertise provides an entitlement to disregard some of the fundamental rules of Wikipedia. This editor resigned in protest not just because of this discussion but because of the numerous AFDs and the growing consensus that his recent Astrology articles were not up to the standards of wikipedia 1, 2, 3. Aditya soni has never conceded that any of the criticisms of these articles were valid and his refused to make use of AFC (and other processes designed to assist new editors). Now faced with a possibility of mild and temporary editorial review Aditya Soni has resigned in disgust. In the immortal words of Cartman: "Screw You, I'm Going Home!". --Salimfadhley (talk) 23:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Thank you for those words, which serve to escalate an unpleasant situation. As experienced editors our role is not only to create and edit articles but to provide a place where the less experienced can grow and become more valuable. I am thanking you for the Cartman quote, in case you are in any doubt.
People have driven away an editor whose understanding of the somewhat arcane topic appears to be great, but who is not quite working in a collegiate manner. I have read a number of the articles. They are difficult to understand. So is particle physics. They are not well referenced. Often, nor is particle physics, in that each has references from within the universe in which the topic exists. So what? We, the self styled great and good, are meant to be capable of editing the arcane and impenetrable to make it available to the ordinary reader. What we have said and are continuing to say to this editor is "Betake yourself and your topic that is difficult to understand, and go!" We disguise that as some sort of topic ban. Go us!
The wisdom of crowds often creates something far more unpleasant, and I believe we have seen it here. We have a posse and lunch law here. Yes, 'lunch', because we will have this editor for lunch.
The adult approach is to put this to bed as an understood but unwise proposal which will not be implemented, and to attempt to salvage something from the mess - we need to try to salvage this editor's feelings. I'm sorry that I asked them to come here and comment. As you see on their talk page they feel savaged the more by having done so.
For clarity, I have never met them before this, and never read their work. I joined this discussion because I felt then and feel now that this is a grave injustice being perpetrated on an ordinary person, someone like you and like me. I remain ashamed of us for doing this.
Are we not meant to guide and encourage the less collegiate editor, the less experienced editor? Or do we throw them under the bus when we don;t quite 'get' what they are trying to do? Fiddle Faddle 06:56, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I disagree strongly with Timtrent that we are seeing articles created that are simply written by someone who understands the subject but writes articles that are difficult to understand and need better referencing. They are in fact articles which have Wikipedia stating in its own voice that astrology is an objective fact. The author even says as much at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reka yoga (astrology) - " But all the same Reka yoga is a bad planetary combination; it has a restraining and at times destructive effect." Now he has the right to believe this all to be true, but not to create articles in which Wikipedia itself is asserting these things to be true. Dougweller (talk) 07:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Wikipedia presents many things as facts. A good number are not facts at all, but are hypotheses, theories, etc. If something is presented as a fact that is genuinely not a fact there is a simple and expedient mechanism for making it clear that it is not a fact. We use the Edit button and make judicious edits. We do not then seek to prevent an editor from ever creating articles in main namespace again by a massive ban hammer style proposal at ANI. If we did that we would have very few editors left and the WP:AFC backlog would go up tenfold at a stroke. Not all articles are excellent. That is why we edit as a community. We don't chuck them away unless and until they are shown to be hopeless cases. We certainly do not throw their creator under a bus.
If we are very lucky we may be able to salvage the editor as a contributor for years to come, but I do not blame him at all for being extremely upset with the way he is being treated. Fiddle Faddle 12:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
"A good number are not facts at all, but are hypotheses, theories, etc." Presenting hypotheses as fact? Name one and I'll show you an article which needs to be edited. Also, I suggest you read Evolution as fact and theory before implying the word theory mean "not facts at all". "If something is presented as a fact that is genuinely not a fact there is a simple and expedient mechanism for making it clear that it is not a fact. ... We do not then seek to prevent an editor from ever creating articles in main namespace again by a massive ban hammer style proposal at ANI" Actually, this happens all the time, because it is a massive drain on everything to chase civil POV pushers around fixing their edits (and that's even if they don't just edit war back). Second Quantization (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this guy clearly knows his stuff. He needs some help fitting it into our way of doing things, but this is exactly the sort of material we could do with more of. I'm disgusted at the behaviour of those who want it gone because they don't understand, it's foreign, it's arcane or whatever. I know a little about this sort of stuff, and while it's very hard to get into, especially on a sleepy afternoon after lunch when I listened to a chap explain this area for a week, it's valid within the limits of the subject. We shouldn't be presenting it as fact, but we shouldn't be deleting this very real scholarship. --Pete (talk) 04:17, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Pete,I wish you had made your appearance earlier. I have stepped in mainly because of you. Whatever be the opinion of the people in the Western world about astrology as a pseudo-science or a hoax or a non-sense, but you know that Astrology has been a part of Hindu life and culture for the past 4000 years or so, and it still continues to play an important role in our life. Even those Indian skeptics who vehemently speak and write against astrology, in fact, secretly approach priest-astrologers in the time of need. I can vouch for this fact because I am in this field though not as a professional. After the introduction of British method of education by Macaulay, who divided the world into the educated and the barbarians, the longstanding Indian method of thinking changed; everything ancient was questioned and even rejected, which situation worsened because of the influence of Karl Marx. Hindu astrology also took a severe hit and the number of those rejecting it as a science grew larger and larger, and also because of the support extended by the then political establishment. The vexing question, whether astrology is a science or not, was finally settled by the Supreme Court of India which court on 05/05/2004 ruled that astrology is a science, and even directed the Indian Universities to teach this subject. This judgement was delivered in the Case No. Appeal (civil) 5886 of 2002 P.M.Bhargava & Others. Vs. University Grants Commission and Another. You can access the court order at Govt. of India website - http://judis.nic.in/supremecourt/qrydisp.asp?tfnm=26188 I am sure you are aware of this court ruling which is now the law of the land. Please enlighten all participants especially those who are against Hindu astrology and eager to bury my four articles already listed as AFDs. You have read the Indian Sanskrit texts. Our ancient thinkers did not use many words, they were very brief while defining and explaining the various astrological and philosophical principles. The later translators and commentators were in no position to change that method of expression lest the true meaning became lost. Hence, the language appears arcane and difficult to understand. I have not digressed from the available and referred to texts. This is it. My objecting friends should have directly asked me to re-write and if possible simplify what I had presented all that which is now under their scrutiny. They did not and you know the rest. They have driven me out.Aditya soni (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I, for one, am glad to see that you have chosen to reengage. I found the reasoning of the Madras High Court (quoted approvingly in the decision linked) particularly apt for an encyclopedia: it had "held that the very purpose of imparting education is to gain knowledge and therefore there should be every scope for making a study on very many subjects in order to enrich ones craving for knowledge. Any such attempt from any quarters in furtherance of that pursuit should not be stultified. The learned Judge further held that it was for the pupil concerned to select any particular field or subject in furtherance of his future career, and merely because the subject has got its basis or origin traceable to some cult, it cannot be held that the same would only result in propagation of a particular religion." I, for one, believe that your articles can be edited so as present knowledge more neutrally and not necessarily only result in propagation of a particular religion. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 14:26, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't say that I have read the ancient Sanskrit texts. I have a shallow understanding of the arrangement of the Vedas, the Upanishads and so on. It is a rich and deep subject! I can barely read Sanskrit, and puzzling out meaning with the help of Monier-Williams is a slow task. Though very enjoyable. Max Muller is another sage I revere, and when I next visit Oxford I am charged with visiting him at Holywell.
Despite what the court in Madras says, we cannot present astrology here as fact or science. We can certainly describe it for those who do, giving the sources and rewriting to make it less impenetrable, in line with Wikipedia's policies. We already present many arcane fields. Particle physics is mentioned above, but we also cover Harry Potter and Karl Marx in great detail. There is certainly room for the Vedas here, and your contributions are welcome, at least from those who have an inkling of what you're talking about. For many others, it comes across as nonsense, and I understand their confusion, though cannot support their behaviour towards a scholar. Obviously the wisdom of Advaita is yet to blossom in their hearts.
It is obvious that you are a scholar, and one who knows his texts. I can help edit your work here in line with policy, if you'll accept my feeble understanding of your field. Quite likely there are others here with better knowledge of both Sanskrit and Vedic tradition who can join in. Some of the advice given above is very good, such as the suggestion that you cease creating new articles until we have dealt with those already here by rewording them in line with Wikipedia policy. --Pete (talk) 19:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as proposal is too broad. AlanS (talk) 14:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. I've actually read some (non-Wiki) articles on Vedic (Hindu) astrology, and the long-winded and often dire articles that this user is writing sound like they come from the Middle Ages. I believe they are not only inappropriate, too long, and a detriment to Wikipedia, I believe they are actually misleading in terms of the belief system they purport to represent. Softlavender (talk) 05:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • What an excellent idea. Let us ban every editor whose writing quality is poor, or whose style we do not agree with, from creating new articles. Far better to ban them than to educate them, because it saves so much trouble. And, even better than that, it isn't WP:BITE at all, if we say it isn't. Alternatively we can edit the articles we think are substandard. I thought that was what Wikipedia was about. Fiddle Faddle 13:41, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I never said that the writing quality is poor or that I disagreed with the style. I said the articles are misleading. Do we want an encyclopedia to be misleading? If you think so, fine, but I disagree; I think an encyclopedia should be accurate and up-to-date. Softlavender (talk) 14:53, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Yesterday, I asked User:Aditya soni, if willing, to make some changes to one or two articles so that Hindu beliefs were represented as beliefs rather than as universal truths. [6]. Today, I note that User:Aditya soni has done just that. [7] and [8]. Even if one is not entirely satisfied with the results, I hope we can all agree that this is strong evidence of a willingness to work collaboratively. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 13:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I was invited to ANI for a third opinion. The concepts the user writes on are "real" concepts (not WP:FRINGE) in Hindu astrology. That said; many of them do not warrant an independent article, but however need to mentioned in the master article. Trikasthanas (astrology) IMO should be merged with Bhāva and retained as a para or 2. The articles created by the user are primarily based on WP:PRIMARY sources, thus may be coloured by the author's perception (Read WP:OR). Articles like Devatas (Vedanta) seem to be WP:POVFORKs of the master article (in this case, Rigvedic deities or Deva (Hinduism)).Redtigerxyz Talk 06:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Comment Dear Mr. Redtigerxyz Talk ,I had seen the page Deva (Hinduism), but I did not know where to incorporate my written matter posted at Devatas (Vedanta), therefore, I created a new page owing to inexperience. But,I have not done any original research nor relied on primary sources -
Ref 1 Raj Pruthi’s book – Vedic Civilization is not a primary source; it is a secondary source on the topic. The entire book is available on line.
Ref 2 The book - Sree Varaha mihira’s Bhirat Jataka is not a primary source; it is translation cum commentary by B.Suryanarain Rao, and a secondary source. The entire book is available on line.
Ref 3, 5,6 Swami Gambhirananda’s book on Brahma Sutra Bhasya of Sankaracarya is a tertiary source; this is Swami Gambhirananda’s translation and commentary on the Sanskrit translation of Brahma Sutras by Adi Shankara. The entire book can be accessed at http://michaelsudduth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Srimad-Bhagavad-Gita-Shankara-Bhashya-English.pdf
Ref 7 The book – New Perspectives on Advaita Vedanta is not a primary source; it is a secondary/tertiary source. The entire book is available on line.
Ref 8 The book – A Constructive Survey of Upanishadic Philosophy, as the title suggests is a masterly survey of the Upanishads conducted by Ramachandra Dattatrya Ranade.
Ref 9 The book- Patanjali Yoga Sutras contains the original Sanskrit text along with English translation by Swami Prabhavananda. It is a secondary source. The entire book can be accessed at http://www.estudantedavedanta.net/yoga-aphorisms-of-patanjali.pdf
Ref 10 The book – Eight Upanishads Vol.1 contains original text of Isa, Kena, Katha and Taittiriya Upanishads along with English translation and commentary by Swami Gambhirananda.
Ref 11 The book – Studies in Upanishads as the name itself suggests is a tertiary source.
By the way I have already sought deletion of all 160 odd pages created by me. Therefore, I request you to please quietly delete all pages without inviting or involving others, then, there will not be any kind of aspersions cast on my understanding of the subject, my ability, my sincerity and my integrity. And, by deleting all articles your precious time and effort would also be saved. I hope you will not disappoint me. I seek forgiveness from all you for having created so many thoughtless pages and thus carelessly bothered you all. I have deleted my user page but I do not know how to quit Wikipedia entirely (including disabling of my password i.e. access to any page), please help me. Also, please close this discussion too, which has needlessly gone on and on. I am glad you have also supported a ban on me. You may collectively ban me for ever, I won't be bothering you in future, never in any case. Thanks.Aditya soni (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Continual fringe claims in all created articles (all with terrible sourcing too),[9]: "Generally, a person born with Reka yoga has neither knowledge nor wealth, is penurious"." Albert Einstein was born with a Rekā yoga which made him perform poorly in his studies during the course of the dashas (planetary periods) the planets giving rise to the said yoga." That's a claim in the wikipedia voice that planet positions made Einstein do badly in school.
[10]: "King George III born on 4th June 1738 with Unmaad yoga inasmuch as in his case Mars occupying the 10th house aspected the lagna and the Moon combining with Saturn casted its inimical aspect on Mars; he suffered from mental illness." Of course this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense since the second part seems unrelated to the first, but I think it's obvious what is being implied here.
[11]: " These are the three evil houses of suffering whose lords and occupation invariably bring difficulties, suffering, loss, anxieties, worries, obstacles, disease, confinement, incarceration, impediments, enemies, lawsuits, accidents, injuries, surgeries, and death like experiences in the lives of all human beings." "From the 6th house are divined diseases, disappointments, ..." "The 12th house indicates disturbance to sleep, mental worry, ... ", "The lord of the 6th house should not be stronger than the lord of the lagna if so then one cannot overpower opponents and foes, and is vanquished illness and ill-health will overpower the body. " This is the Viparita Raja yoga that confers learning, longevity, fame and prosperity, illustrious friends, success in all ventures and victory over foes."
People seem resistant to the idea that poor writers shouldn't write 160 articles laden with a fringe POV, but I think it makes sense. Second Quantization (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
And I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, I did even ask him to be wary of our polices over a year ago: User_talk:Aditya_soni#Fringe_guidelines (old nick), Second Quantization (talk) 16:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support, reluctantly. I have hesitated over this due to the ideas already eloquently expressed by Timtrent/FiddleFaddle. However, can we really afford to have hundreds of articles which are poorly written, dense, and in universe, presenting astrology as fact? Who will go and clean them up? Who will monitor and fix every new page?
I wouldn't support this if the articles were just badly written, but writing astrology as factual in Wikipedia's own voice is a massive POV and FRINGE problem and I just can't support its continuation. BethNaught (talk) 15:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I had intended skipping this dispute, but Reka yoga (astrology) is an abuse of Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 23:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Mahadeva states that the person born with Reka yoga is devoid of education and wealth and has bad nails - Oh come now! When feeling threatened, Squirtle withdraw their limbs into their brown-orange shells and spray water from their mouth with great force. Where's the difference? We list and describe all sorts of stuff that is patent nonsense, so long as there is a significant cultural following. Pokemon, astrology, synchronised swimming. We are an encyclopaedia, not some slitty-eyed moral judge. --Pete (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: Friends, I need not disturb you but I cannot avoid narrating to you my day's experience. Only today I noticed the reasons given by the editor who has nominated page titled – Char Dham (Vedic) for deletion. His intention suits me fine, but he has very sadly termed this topic as original research and a hoax because he could not find a reliable source that indicates Char Dham exists in Vedic literature. That hurt me. He seems to have not appreciated the contents of section – Pratardana’s description of the four Dhams in which section two significant Mantras from the Rig Veda i.e. IX.96.18 and IX.96.19 referred to by two authors, have been cited along with the explanations by those authors. Evidently this nominator does not know Sanskrit and Hindi but even then I have led him to Rig Veda Vol. 5 pages 335,336 published online by Aryasamaj Jamnagar which is actually Swami Dayananda Saraswati’s translation of the Rig Veda and his commentary on that text. The word Dham (धाम) in Vedic philosophy refers to plane of existence. In order to assist him so that he properly understands this topic I have specifically brought to his notice the words – "तृतीयं धाम" at the start of the second line of mantra IX.96.18 on page 335 which is explained by Dayananda Saraswati on page 336 as – (तृतीयं, धाम) (pronounced - triteeyam dhaam; triteeyam means 'three') (three dhams) are देवयान (Devayana or Devaloka) और (and) पितृयान (Pitriyana) इन दोनों से पृथक् (beyond these two) is the तीसरा (third) जो (which) मुक्तिधाम (Muktidham) है (is); and to the two words – "तुरीयं धाम" (pronounced - tureeyam dhaam; tureeyam or Turiya means 'the fourth') appearing in the next mantra on the same page. Dayananda Saraswati explains - (तुरीयम्) चौथा (fourth) (धाम) (dham) परमपद (the highest state) परमात्मा (Paramatman) है (is). The link to this text is http://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/rugveda_v5/rugveda.htm . These two mantras of the Rig Veda directly speak about the Char (four) Dhams (planes of existence), and these are the mantras I have cited. I have failed to understand as to how the nominator missed noticing these mantras. I am not objecting to the proposed deletion of this page. Thanks.Aditya soni (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)Aditya soni (talk) 13:37, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not the nom, but you are writing articles on the basis of original research. You are working off the primary texts, and primary religious sources (which are themselves quite old). See WP:NOR and WP:SECONDARY. Wikipedia does not accept original research. Engaging in an original or interesting synthesis isn't a bad thing, it's just something that is forbidden in wikipedia, Second Quantization (talk) 15:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Are you sure that we're getting original research? The texts are old, but there are extensive commentaries. I'm getting the feeling that all of the material is well-sourced. The problem could be that the average contributor to ANI is sadly deficient in Sanskrit, let alone Vedic lore. --Pete (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I think Pete has the right of it. Old commentary is not original research. Referring to Dayananda Saraswati's interpretations of Rigveda is no more original research than referring to Augustine of Hippo's and Thomas Aquinas's interpretations of scripture in Just war theory. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. The question is how we refer to it. So long as we are clear on that, there is no problem describing any belief system. Hell, if we could have a reliable source for what bunny rabbits actually believe, that would be awesome, and a great addition to our pool of knowledge. In this case we think the articles may be over detailed, badly worded, implying fact instead of description of a belief, and maybe misleading, because of that. The question is what we do about that. We can fix them, discard them because they are too misleading, too voluminous and too hard to fix, engage productively with the author, berate the author (and accept the risk of losing them, or even consider that a positive), or any number of things inbetween. Nobody ever said this encyclopedia thing would be easy. We edit, we discuss. Sometimes we reject. Sometimes we can adapt and include. As long as we consider these things properly, we are doing our "job". Begoon talk 18:22, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Pete, Since I am the one who nominated this article. Dayananda Saraswati DOES NOT classify this an independent concept in his commentary. I have read the Hindi commentary. Dayananda just uses the term dham in his translation. The article plays with WP:SYTH. The whole article is a WP:HOAX product of WP:OR. That said, the author has created articles which are not hoaxes (eg Equal house system (Hindu astrology)).--Redtigerxyz Talk 14:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Are you nominating yourself for mentor? Second Quantization (talk) 20:45, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I would if I weren't inexperienced myself. Jayakumar RG (talk) 06:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Weak Support ban from creating new articles in article space on a temporary basis. Redtigerz has said above that Hindu astrology is significantly notable and from what I've seen in reference works I have to agree that there could reasonably be a fairly wide selection of articles on the topic. There do seem to be some real questions regarding the editor's capacity to adhere to NPOV in content right now but a good mentor might be able to help there. I can try in the near future to help a little in that regard and would be willing to be a secondary advisor once I become a bit better informed on the topic in a few weeks but think that for the moment anyway it would be in his and our best interests to ensure his created articles are a bit better from the word go. John Carter (talk) 16:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment The material about the India Supreme Court ruling on whether the Vedas are a science is exactly the sort of thing that should go into the encyclopedia, if it can be sourced. But over a hundred articles? Can AFC handle that much? Maybe some of them could be moved to user space to work on them, until they can be approved. At least they wouldn't be lost. I know the milhist group sometimes does this. —Neotarf (talk) 21:44, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: Supreme Court’s ruling is on Hindu astrology as a science.

Sepharial in his book - The Science of Foreknowledge (pages 58 – 70)(url= [12] ) concludes that the Hindus did not get their astrology from the Chaldeans or the Egyptians; the astrological methods of the Hindus are essentially and fundamentally different from the Chaldeans and the Egyptians, the zodiac is not related to the equinox, the Hindus are aware of the precession of the equinox, and the calculation of periods is based on 27 nakshatras reckoned from the place of the Moon at birth; the Chaldean directions based on diurnal aspects of the planets after birth have no place in Hindu astrology and the Hindus do not use the time-measures such as "one day for a year" method of directing used by the Chaldeans and the Babylonians. Hindu astrology like the Hindu astronomy evolved originally, the trine is the basis of Hindu astrology. Chaldean astrology did not have its birth in India, but astrology existed in India more than 2000 years before the Chaldeans.

We, in india, believe that Jyotisha or Astrology is as old as the Vedas which embody eternal knowledge. Jyotisha forms the most important of the six Vedangas or the body-organs of the Vedas; it is the scientific study and application of the language of the heavenly bodies determined on the basis of astronomy and mathematics. It is a cosmic science not bound by limitations of a laboratory. Astrology did not come to India after the advent of Alexander, references to astrology are found in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. All ancient texts of Hindu astrology are in Sanskrit covering a very wide scope and variety of principles, permutations and combinations of planetary positions; Hindu astrology is a very complex multi-dimensional system and therefore, any criticism of this system should be made by one who has studied this system.

Even so when will this inquisition stop? Do I find it interesting? No. Do I find it entertaining? No. On the contrary it recalls to my mind an Urdu sh’er from Mirza Ghalib’s ghazal which reads:

آگے آتی تھی حالِ دل پہ ہنسی : اب کسی بات پر نہیں آتی :

which means – "Previously I could laugh at my heart’s plight, but now I do not laugh at all".Aditya soni (talk) 01:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)Aditya soni (talk) 03:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Aditya. Let me reply to some of your comments:
  • the astrological methods of the Hindus are essentially and fundamentally different from the Chaldeans and the Egyptians - There are plenty similarities between Chaldean and Hindu astrology, although no one knows who borrowed from whom. Both cultures divide the circle into 12 and 360 (the basis of modern angle system).
  • The astrology found in the Vedas is not horary (ie it is not based on birth charts). Horashastra was influenced by the Greeks, as the Yavanajataka itself says. Natal astrology was found in Ramayana and Mahabharata because they were edited several times, and the final version came only during the Gupta period, long after the Hellenistic period.
  • I cant help but notice how you keep on referring to astrology as 'science'. Astrology may be a knowledge system, a branch of study, but it is not a science because it does not use the scientific method. No one is against representing astrology in this encyclopedia, but ultimately you cant claim in WP's voice that astrology is scientific. Jayakumar RG (talk) 14:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Offer I dunno about being a good mentor, but I'd be happy to work with Aditya soni if nobody with more knowledge of the subject can be found. I think we should put anything problematical into user space, work on it there, and push it into mainspace when we're happy with it. I don't think anything good is going to come out of more ANI discussion - most of the regulars here, bless their hearts, have no knowledge or interest in the Vedas. --Pete (talk) 08:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as it appears to comprise two distinct issues. First is "he uses dense language" which is an endemic problem on Wikipedia, although Wikipedia also has many articles written in purple prose as well. That is a good reason for editing articles to make them more readable, but not a strong reason for anything else. The second issue is the perennial "religion/science/fringe" trichotomy. My suggestion is that articles on religion be clearly marked as relating to religion, and not being in the "science" category in the first place -- thus stopping the never-ending battle about placing "fringe theory" on each clearly religious topic. We should be able to trust that readers can understand that an article properly labeled in a "religious category" is not about "science". Collect (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: Dear Pete (talk), the issue is not the Vedas but my articles on Hindu astrology. Permit me to give a brief but essential explanation.

All created things transform, this is one of the many salient aspects of Truth. But then, Truth itself is very difficult to apprehend. Before coming face to face with Truth, which is present everywhere equally, we are asked by our ancient seers to give up righteousness and unrighteousness, we are asked to discard what we think is real and that we think is unreal, and we are also asked to discard that by which these two are meant to be discarded. Man is certainly not instinctively drawn towards Fate even though he is more aware of death. All knowledge including Astrology gained through experience and study reflects man’s attempt to understand the purpose of his own being and all else connected therewith, as also to know what determines Fate.

Our ancients who had propounded the principles of prediction were conversant with the science of astrophysics and possessed a high level of inferential ability; they were able to draw inferences with astounding results from what they observed in the ordinary course. They knew that revelation requires a human agency for its own manifestation and they also knew that knowledge can be more dangerous than ignorance. Therefore, leaving no scope for doubt and economizing on words, they evolved the method of simply defining the basic and the most advanced principles of prediction and described various yogas (planetary combinations) along with their results avoiding repetition and without offering explanations. All Sanskrit texts on Hindu astrology exhibit this particular methodology. Astrology is man’s effort to understand Time; it begins from the stage when a firm grip over the various principles of Astronomy and mathematics has been achieved.

Astrology is intended for prediction, and prediction itself depends on the Rising Ascendant or the Lagna and the other positions of the planets, which positions involve astronomical calculations. Thus, Hindu astrology consists of Ganitha, the mathematical part, and Phalita, the predictive part, and is more a science of tendencies which assumes that planets influence the activity of man and hence, his destiny. Hindu astrology actually speaks of the fruits of Poorvapunya (the results of the karmas of previous births). Since all events are believed to re-occur in a pre-determinable manner, therefore, astrology is said to be the study of man’s response to stimuli, and that planets simply offer a lawful channel for the outward operation of cause-effect equilibriums each man has set in motion in the past. Prediction is broadly based on the strength, nature, aspect and combination of planets, on the qualities and the strength of the rasis (signs) and bhavas (houses) owned, occupied and aspected by the planets, and on the influence of the yogas. Hindu astrology basically requires the discerning eye to be able to identify the yogas and then apply the prescribed results judicially in accordance with the established principles.

The ancient Sanskrit texts are the primary source, the translations and commentaries on these texts are the secondary source, and texts that explain the application of principles with the aid of live examples are the tertiary source. The translators, the commentators and the later teachers and practitioners have retained the expression of the original texts because the original expression, which is treated as a statement of fact, cannot be changed. For example, Kalidasa in his Uttara Kalamrita, tells us that if either Saturn or Venus or both are devoid of strength, occupy the trikasthanas (the 6th, the 8th or the 12th house) or are in association with the lords of those trikasthanas or own the trikasthanas then during their dasha (planetary-period) they will prove auspicious, and if one owns an auspicious bhava and the other an auspicious bhava then they will prove all the more auspicious. This statement is an observation given as a principle; it cannot be changed by us. This can be tested only through experience because observations do not depend upon specifications alone, and qualitative analysis does not depend on the quality of the sample in hand but on its natural order.

My friends have found my way of writing and the presentation of various principles to be unreadable and violating certain Wikipedia norms. This is so mainly because they had never before encountered such things, they have no inkling of Hindu astrology, they do not understand the mechanics involved; they do not respect the sanctity of ancient Hindu scriptures; they do not know Sanskrit and are also not aware of the importance of brevity. In my articles I have remained faithful to the Sanskrit texts and commentators who have presented the principles etc., as statements of fact. I cannot change their language or mode of expression to suit the critics of Hindu astrology who do not even know Hindu astrology. Nowhere have I given my own opinion or conducted any kind of research. I have not violated any Wikipedia’s norms. If you know Hindu astrology well please do improve these articles, but in case you also find this task difficult (as I have found) then why burden the unprepared editors and readers with information which is beyond their ordinary understanding notwithstanding the fact that there are more persons visiting the pages on Hindu astrology than on the Upanishads and the Vedas.

You find me here because of your notification and because I am eager to know how this discussion ends. Regards.Aditya soni (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You have apparently taken the texts of the old Sanskrit works at authoritative and by wikipedia policies and guidelines as per WP:FRINGE and related pages we cannot. I suggest you read that page and other policy and guideline pages which relate to the broad topic of pseudoscience which is one of the fields all forms of astrology fall into. Also, it might help if you more clearly demonstrated an understanding of the fact that wikipedia is intended to be read and useful for general readers not specialists. There are other WMF entities which are more suitable for more in–depth discussion of topics which cannot be achieved in wikipedia given or particuar policies and guidelines. You have already received one generous offer above to help you better work within the existing wikipedia structre and I think it would be in your best interests to take it. I am willing to offer what assistance I can too. But you do apparently have some mistaken assmuptions about the depth and width of coverage wikipedia gives any topics and those mistaken assumptions seem to be causing you some probems here.John Carter (talk) 14:40, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
This is not the place to discuss the intricacies of the subject. I don't know - or have much interest in - Hindu astrology per se. Few here do. But it can be presented as lore in the same way that we present other arcana. I accept that the primary texts are beyond modification and that the laws governing the movements of planets and their supposed influences are likewise fixed. Such is the nature of Prakṛti. But in the Wikipedia world, we cannot couch our descriptions as absolute fact. We may perhaps quote recognised scholars in their opinions, but they must be presented as opinions, not eternal truth. It is a matter of presentation.
There is no doubt that Hindu astrology is notable enough to be included here, given the vast number of followers. We are a broad church and there is room in Wikipedia for all manner of arcana. You will find details of every episode of Gilligan's Island, for example, and we are positively devoted to football. These topics have their own saints, and fanatics who religiously chronicle the important trivia. Hindu astrology can be presented in these terms - a collection of articles and subarticles on a subject area with a wide following.
The typical Wikipedia editor, especially those with their minds aligned on this page, has little knowledge or interest in the subject, is quite unfamiliar with Sanskrit, let alone the Devanagari characters currently used to present it. The Vedic scriptures might as well have been composed by space aliens, for all the impact they have on the consciousness of the typical wikiperson. Hence their description of a subject familiar to hundreds of millions of human beings as "fringe". They know no better, but here is not the place to educate them.
We can work together, probably find others with an interest in the project, and massage the information into acceptable wikiformat. --Pete (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
But Pete, one by one, the editors who have participated in this discussion, have started deleting the pages created by me. Some have even defaced a few with large uncalled for tags. Shortly, there will be no article for John Carter, you and me to re-work. All problems thus stand resolved. I thank you all.Aditya soni (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
@Pete: I am all for it. I will be back on wiki after a 3-day break starting now. I am not very familiar to the topic like Aditya, but quite interested. @Aditya soni: Meanwhile, please read some of my thoughts on the comment you made above. Jayakumar RG (talk) 06:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Created over 150 articles and they have got sources. Primary or secondary, he has been creating many articles having multiple sources to show. User:Ad Orientem has made a good opinion, Aditya Soni must only add only those information that are not Wikipedia:FRINGE, if he wants to add FRINGE he must also add the refutation. Remember that both FRINGE and Refutation requires a Reliable source. Aditya Soni must follow these simple guidelines and there will be no complaints. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I went thru several edits, as well as the RFC, what convinces me the most is the point put out by Timtrent and Bladesmulti. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 18:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban Review (2nd Attempt)[edit]

Hi, the original thread got archived, so for convenience I've copied the postings from the original thread to here again. Hopefully that's the right thing to do.
Cailil is really busy in real life and so has recommended that I ask here for someone to do the review. The previous review can be found here. I know it takes time to do a review, so thank you in advance. -- HighKing++ 10:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about "someone" doing a review. You're now asking the community to do a review. First: you'll need to link to the discussion that led to the topic ban. You'll need to link to where you were notified that the topic ban was in effect. You'll need to educate us as to what you've been doing in the meantime - i.e. showing that you've been able to edit positively outside the area of the topic without any squabbles. Finally, you need to show us your way forward: if permitted back into that topic area, how will you act? What will you do to avoid the behaviours that led to the topic ban. Remember that if the community lessens the topic ban and you go back to the same issues, the next step is not a re-imposition of the topic ban, it's usually a block - after all, a TBAN's role is to be that "last chance before an indef" the panda ɛˢˡ” 10:41, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
FYI, some background; this stems from Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive626#User:LevenBoy which led to the issue being added to general sanctions; the page listing topic bans etc. is at Wikipedia:General sanctions/British Isles Probation Log. HighKing was topic-banned in August 2011, it was lifted in June 2012, and then re-imposed in June 2013. HighKing has not been a prolific editor since then, but I can see no actual violation of the topic ban (i.e. adding/removing "British Isles" in articlespace), although he has been active on the talkpages of British Isles and some others as regards naming disputes. Black Kite (talk) 11:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
The fact that he was let back in and did it again doesn't give me the warm fuzzies the panda ɛˢˡ” 15:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • HighKing has noted my extremely busy RL situation (this wont change in the short term) since this is a community sanction the community can overturn/change the topic ban if there is a consensus to do so. In the past I've been concerned more that there is no fundamental change in HK's behaviour from gnoming in British & Irish topic areas, most notably but not limited to naming disputes related to British-Irish history or historical figures or flora and fauna articles, rather than there being an actual breach of the topic ban. From my point of view as this is an indefinite topic ban there needs to be (as EatsShootsAndLeaves points out) evidence of positive attitudinal change and development of a different/productive way of editing. From my point of view showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted--Cailil talk 18:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
As noted above, this Topic Ban is specifically in relation to editing in relation to the term "British Isles". From discusions with Cailil, we agreed that the disruptive behaviour was rooted in a couple of habits that ultimately led to squabbles and disruption - and although primarily with a banned sock, it was pointed out (and ultimately I recognized and accepted) that my behaviour was the "trigger" for the sock to engage. Regardless of the right/wrong of each individual situation, ultimately my editing was the common factor, and therefore something needed to change. Since that time, it is true that I've not been as prolific. Partly because my previous "gnoming" in these areas (one of the areas that needed addressing) accounted for a high proportion of my editing, and partly because of changes in real-life. Since the Topic Ban I've created a couple of articles - Sir Fineen O'Driscoll and Coppingers Court, one of the areas I was told I should concentrate on rather than gnoming. I believe I understand which of my editing habits were problematic in the past, and I won't be revisiting those habits in the future. Thanks for taking the time. -- HighKing++ 21:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Just to address Cailil's point above - it should be seen that there has been evidence of positive attitudinal change and development, specifically research and creation of articles, and avoiding gnoming. To address Black Kite - Cailil specifically stated that discussions on any issues was still fine and my Topic Ban did not forbid any discussions on any topics. I was never a confrontational editor to begin with, and I always discussed changes and been courteous to those that engaged on various topics. I think its fair to say that the deep-rooted issue was my insistence on an exact definition of "British Isles" in articles, with references to show that it was being used within the references. Other areas, involving an "exact defintion and usage", were also highlighted by Cailil even though these topics did not fall under the Topic Ban, but I understood what was being said. I don't believe there's any need for the Topic Ban to remain in place any longer as I've shown I understand the reasons why it was in place, and I've addressed those editing habits at the root of the problem. -- HighKing++ 12:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • The fact that it fell off with only dissenting opinion meant the request failed. No need to repost the panda ₯’ 14:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
It isn't clear to me that there were only dissenting opinions, apologies for reposting if that is the case. I saw that editors had posted some observations and questions, and it seemed to me that it "fell off" due to a lack of activity. -- HighKing++ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support lifting of topic ban. I'm impressed that you've not gone the sock/evasion route & have thus respected your top ban. If the community chooses to lift the TB, I would recommend less attention to the topic-in-question, in future. I don't wann seeya getting blocked or worst. :) GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you GoodDay. As I've said above, I believe I've addressed the behaviour that was at the root of the problem, and have shown to the community that I've learned. -- HighKing++ 17:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I've confidence in you :) GoodDay (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support lifting with the appropriate ROPE. Happy to give a second or third chance. Drmies (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Drmies - I assume ROPE is some further probation period? Is there somewhere you can point me? -- HighKing++ 11:34, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
HighKing, see WP:ROPE. It's not so much a rope as it is a leash... Drmies (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • No Support A leopard never changes its spots. Highking has been banned in the past and as soon as a ban is lifted returns to previous behaviour. To recount that Highking was never sanctioned for sockpuppetry while operating under his 2nd account - User:Popaice. No support. Dubs boy (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose As Calil states, a lack of problematic editing since simply proves that the topic ban works. My experience from working on problematic areas affected by nationalist POV is that editors do not change; topic bans expire and the same editing patterns re-emerge. HighKing can be a productive editor in other areas of Wikipedia if they wish, but I don't believe allowing them to return to the whole "British Isles" combat arena would be a productive outcome. Number 57 10:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
On that basis, is it true to say that you wouldn't agree to a Topic Ban ever being overturned? Harsh. No chance then for an editor to show they have the ability to learn from mistakes, or show that they've recognized their problematic behaviour? -- HighKing++ 10:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
In areas with bad POV problems like this, I think lifetime topic bans are the most effective way of cleaning them up. As I alluded to above, I have edited around the edges of another area with some awful issues, and I haven't seen topic ban work as a temporary solution - the problematic editors return when it expires with exactly the same viewpoint - sometimes they are more subtle in their POV after their ban, but the POV remains. The issue for me is the desire to return to a topic area in which the banned editors clearly have a strong POV, and I don't believe it is a positive move to allow this. Number 57 10:24, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Some background: I edited a lot of articles that in my opinion (at the time), used the term "British Isles" incorrectly. We attempted to create rules for usage and formed WP:BISE and discussed edits among interested editors. That initiative eventually failed, and led to the discovery of a large sock farm (still active today). I wasn't ever editing from a "nationalistic" point of view, but from a (misguided) attempt to enforce a standard definition across lots of articles. Cailil correctly pointed this out (took a while for me to grasp, but I see it now), and also pointed out that this was the root of problems caused by gnoming in other areas. Enforcing definitions (especially of controversial terms) where definitions are not "exact" in the real world, was the problem. I don't believe the Topic Ban is serving any useful purpose any longer - it is "working" not because it is in effect, but because I've learned and cut out the problematic behaviour (and learned too). I don't believe any editor would say I'm a POV warrior (exceptions made for the sock farm obviously), or that I even have strong nationalistic POVs. It's less of a desire to "return" to a topic area, and more of a desire to rejoin the community as a fully-fledged and trusted editor, without a shadow of a Topic Ban hanging over my edits, and being able to show that editors do learn, and do change for the good. -- HighKing++ 10:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Ha! This made me laugh. In truth, Highking systematically went page to page removing the term "British Isles" and at an unreplicable speed. I think a history of edit warring and sockpuppetry are reasons enough to decline this request.Dubs boy (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If this editor had chosen to edit in an other way then things would be different, however on the editor's own admission, editing has just been reduced so things are not different. It sounds like the editor is mainly interested in editing in the problematic way. Maybe it would help if the editor indicated the kind of constructive edits that he wishes to make but cannot due to the topic ban. Op47 (talk) 22:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Op47 - just in the interests of transparency and completeness, No, that's not what I said. Yes, my editting has been reduced, but I stated that it is mainly due to cutting out the problematic "gnoming", and partially because I'm not as active as I was before. You appear to attribute the "reduction" as involuntary, and therefore nothing has changed. Not true. 80+% of the reduction is my choice, because the gnoming is the underlying problem. And in terms of "different" editting patterns - I have also researched and created a couple of new articles and working on another. But you've asked one important question - "what kind of constructive edits I wish to make but cannot due to the Topic Ban". I'm not going to blow smoke. The honest answer ... I've nothing in mind. Keeping the Topic Ban in place wouldn't affect my editing .... but would and does affect my "standing" in the community. -- HighKing++ 09:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - If the topic ban is lifted simply for "time served" reasons, HighKing will likely return to the same behavior that led to the topic ban in the first place. This, in turn, will attract more disruptive socking to counter his edits. Déjà vu. I think that HighKing should not be allowed any wiggle room to muck about with the "British Isles" phrase at all, ever, as it will only lead to disruption (major headaches). The restriction is not an albatross around his neck. It is a safeguard against disruption. I have no doubt that the stalkers that watch his every edit will come out of the woodwork the second the restriction was lifted and he made a "BI" edit. Not worth the trouble. Doc talk 09:50, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Doc - to be honest, I kinda agree with you. The only point I would highlight is that I'm being heavily penalized (in my opinion) for the actions (past and potential future) of the sock (who's already attempting to disrupt this discussion). I recognize that the community can't afford to invest the time, energy and resources into every petty event, and I also recognize that the community has no appetite for anything to do with the phrase "British Isles", regardless of whether any edits are actually right or wrong. As you say, and I agree, the disruption isn't worth it. You say I'm likely to return to the same behaviour. I'm saying the opposite and I'm asking the community to trust me. You say it is not an albatross around my neck. Well .. I think it is because it's a sign that the community doesn't trust that I can behave appropriately. And it's going to be impossible for me to demonstrate that the leaf has been turned without a little trust from the community. I don't know what more I can do. -- HighKing++ 11:06, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello :) I have to agree with Cailil above when he says "...showing the community *only* that ban has not been broken proves that the ban works not that it should be lifted". I see no reason to remove the ban because I know the background on this. It's not a "penalty" on you. It's there to "prevent" disruption, and it should remain in place to prevent disruption at large. Nothing personal. Doc talk 11:22, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi :-) I don't get that. How can it *not* be viewed as personal? It's a Topic Ban on me? I've said above that I recognize fully (and hopefully articulated the fact that I recognize fully) the behaviour that causes the problem. I'm asking that the community trusts me enough to lift the Topic Ban. You don't agree ... ergo you don't trust me. Kinda hard not to see it as personal.... I'm not whining or making excuses or blaming the sock or ranting. But I really don't see how the Topic Ban will ever be lifted at this rate ... which translates into the fact that I can never rejoin the trusted editors who operate without a Topic Ban. Victory to socking? Taking your logic one step further, if this Topic Ban extended to all editors, then it wouldn't be personal. But it doesn't. -- HighKing++ 11:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Oppose I was around when this whole thing started(well before the sanction were in place). The wording of the ban "is topic banned from editing in relation to the term 'British Isles' broadly construed." seems reasonable considering this user was prolific in this content dispute. I think this ban has kept this user out of trouble. I think lifting the ban would be about the same as an invitation to start editing in this area which I think is a bad idea.
While I appreciate that this user has respected the ban I also think that this user returning to this topic would result in more trouble. I don't think it hangs over him like a cloud, we don't have a big banner on his userpage or anything. The only thing this ban is doing is keeping him out of an area that was problematic for him before. Chillum 14:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Is the problem the Topic, or my previous behaviour? I've stated I've no intention of ever returning to my previous behaviour. I've also articulated my understanding of what the problem was, and I've demonstrated that I can edit without gnoming while still being productive, and seen out the agreed review period without any violation. I'm getting the distinct impression from Chillum and Doc that the Topic Ban isn't really anything to do with my behaviour. Is there an elephant in the room? Nobody here is stating that they believe I'll return to my previous behaviour... but that the Topic Ban should still remain in place as it doesn't cause me any negative impact. I disagree, hence this request. -- HighKing++ 19:09, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that you want the ban lifted so that you can continue to not edit in the area the topic ban prohibits you from editing? If that is the case then the ban is of no force or effect and you can just ignore it.
There is no banner on your user page, nothing to stigmatize you in regards to this ban. It might as well not exist if you are choosing not to edit in the whole "British Isles" area.
Unless you actually want to edit the subject of "British Isles" again then there is little point in removing the ban. It is the possibility of you returning to editing "British Isles" again that I object to.
You asking for this ban to be removed is essentially you asking for permission to edit the subject of "British Isles". I don't think that is a good idea. Chillum 14:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

EEng and edit warring[edit]

I'm a minimal party to this, so I shouldn't issue a block. EEng has been engaged in an edit war and has ownership issues with Phineas Gage. He has greatly expanded the article to where it is a GA candidate. Six editors, ChrisGualtieri, Chiswick Chap, Johnuniq, Tryptofish, Magioladitis and I have said it is time to move on and for EEng to stop (See Talk:Phineas Gage). EEng then went and reverted for 4th time in the past 48 hours. Others editors have had their edits reverted by EEng. This has already been the subject of an ANI discussion that went nowhere. He has also been the subject of a disruptive editing this past month. EEng also resorts to name calling and diatribes. Such as name calling in the two previous discussions at ANI and a recent diatribe on how all the above editors are "hit and run" editors. Issues range from content to style. EEng's style is, as Dicklyon put it (note EEng's style in the diff), "There's no reason for this article to be so excessively idiosyncratic in style". EEng reverted Dicklyon for supporting his fellow "Gnomes and MOS Nazis".

I feel a short-term block is in order unless the disruptive editing and rudeness doesn't stop. I don't want to see EEng topic banned from the article. He is a major contributor and co-author of the only scholarly publications on Phineas Gage. His input is needed in order for the article to become a GA. Bgwhite (talk) 07:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

  • It's an awkward situation because EEng is very skilled and has done a lot of good things, but this may be a case where a person gets used to being right, and is unable to make allowances for others. @EEng: Suppose we are all wrong—what should you do about that? Should you revert us because we can't argue as eloquently as you? Should you persist until we go away because we are obviously misguided? Sorry, but those approaches won't be successful. Please find a way of rationalizing all this in your mind as being our fault, and move on to something else. Johnuniq (talk) 07:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I protected it for 24 hours, after which I began looking at the history page to see whose edit was the most recent. If this edit be at all typical, we have substantial violations of WP:CITEVAR going on, among other things — people attempting to take the article away from the standardised citation style used by its major author. Let me remind you that not all citation standards use the {{ndash}}, among other things (example), and that the placement of {{shy}} permits the article to be formatted like a professional print publication. In real life, when amateurs tell professionals that they're right and that the professionals are wrong, without solid factual evidence, they get ignored and forced out of the way if necessary. Kindly step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard. Nyttend (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Spectators should know that this is almost entirely about the preferences of certain editors for one form of markup over another -- in most cases, not even affecting the final appearance of the page! -- and who think WP is improved by their going around forcing all articles to conform -- for example, replacing {{ndash}} and {{mdash}} with literals — and – because "that's what editors expect to see" or "templates slow down the servers", which of course is nonsense. Such edits carry blithe edit summaries like "required by MOS" when, of course, MOS says no such thing. (And, of course, it's almost impossible to distinguish — from – from a regular hyphen - when editing.)
This is just the latest in the longrunning campaign, by ChrisGualtieri and others, to teach me a lesson about submitting to the will of the borg. Here's what John Vandenberg had to say about this a year ago: [13]
ChrisGualtieri, you say "someone, clearly not me, needs to reach out and assist in this matter so that this article" - had you and others tried to do so in a peaceful and thoughtful way, you would have more success I am sure. I have had no troubles when I have suggested improvements that bring the article syntax towards greater MOS compliance .. Others have also had successes, large and small, esp. Mirokado. Sometimes two editors need to revert EEng and discuss the issue, after which I have always found him able to accept the desired changes. Not everyone has had the same success, and they cite WP:OWN concerns, but in many of these cases (not all) they have acted like bulls running through this china-shop, doing mass-/automated-'cleanups', without first discussing the issue on the talk page, or doing so in an aggressive fait accompli manner. John Vandenberg (chat)
(Bold added by me.) This latest kerfuffle is just more of the same of that.
EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • This EEng guy, sheesh. Hard to fathom sometimes. Anyone might think he had a metal rod stuck in his head. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 :) Here's a joke: Phineas Gage runs into a bar... EEng (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
... unlike: EEng runs into a block... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My issue began when EEng added 487 Template:Shys to the article that did not render one active use. Putting shy and nbsp templates into invisible comments is completely useless. Cite templates should not be using Hyphen and nbsp templates as Bgwhite pointed out. EEng tries to make eloquent arguments, but has repeatedly been unable to comprehend the basic "Shy" template function. The article as I originally found it had every reference broken with a "false referencing" system that is the most complex and inane system I've ever seen. And I'm not just saying that, EEng called it a "hack of hacks", but EEng had effectively modified the appearance of the page to what looks good on his computer. I had less then 20 characters (not words) across the screen when it began. The page was effectively unreadable. While much has been done to improve it. Also... What CITEVAR issue? The biggest change I see is the Macmillan source (one of many) being cited with the year of its publication in the text; it is also the one with the biggest error that EEng is violently opposed to highlighting. Specifically, the one where Macmillan gives the wrong information and says there is a second source that apparently (according to EEng) doesn't exist. There is definitely a content and COI issue here at play, but BGwhite's concern over edit warring and EEng's name calling should be examined. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • When multiple papers by the same author are cited, it's common to add the year of publication e.g.
Jones (1998)[3] discovered this, confirming it in Jones (2001),[6] and giving further data in Jones (2002).[19]
-- because it looks stupid to write
Jones[3] discovered this, confirming it in Jones,[6] and giving further data in Jones.[19]
This is an accepted style on WP, and that you think there's something wrong with it is typical of everything that's happened in the last year.
  • My "hack of all hacks" was an experiment to see if existing < ref> machinery could be tricked into putting citations in alphabetical order by author name. I spent considerable time trying to get other editors interested in finding a better way to do it, and I finally abandoned it as too unwieldy. For a year you've been trying to make it look like this some evil thing I did, claiming that "it seems that EEng made the article deliberately difficult to edit."
  • As for the rest, I refer again to John Vandenberg from last spring ([19], bolding added):
from what I have seen it is User:ChrisGualtieri who is regularly misusing sources, making a mess of both article and the discussion page in the process of the Tendentious editing. While labeling someone a troll is not OK, neither is Chris' misuse of sources, and Chris' bull-in-china-shop approach to 'fixing' this article, which has been going on for months. ... John Vandenberg (chat)
EEng (talk) 17:44, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I thought Phineas Gage was a delisted FA, I'd never realised it had never got there in the first place. Having a done a few edits on it, just from the referencing and prose in the bits I looked at seems it ought to be possible to get up there. I see last year it had an abandoned GA review which seems to have broken down over stability issues. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Off-topic, but somebody once asked at the Graphics workshop, when I was active there, if we could enhance one of the images, so that the words on the bar could be read. I think we were unable to help much, because the detail wasn't there. Begoon talk 03:39, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I've been involved in trying to get editors to solve these disputes for a long time. The problems are not entirely one-sided, in that editors on both "sides" of the dispute have a history of asking for help with dispute resolution, then suddenly losing interest when the resolution process starts to look serious: see, for example Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Phineas Gage.
  • There is a comment above that tells the editors who have expressed concern about the situation to "step aside and stop preventing this professional from permitting this article to be written to a professional standard." That comment is not helpful. I'm an experienced Wikipedia editor, and if we are suddenly engaging in "professional" editing, I'd like to know when I'm going to get my paycheck. Until that time, I would suggest that all editors who come to a page in good faith are entitled to be listened to, without being told summarily to step aside.
  • About edit warring, EEng was already at 3RR when I reminded him at his talk page: [20]. His page edit subsequent to that time, [21], is, despite the edit summary, in part a 4th revert.
  • This dispute is partly about formatting, but also about writing style and how to balance sources, some of which EEng coauthored in real life. The talk page discussion shows numerous editors expressing thoughtful comments, with EEng a minority of one, and not persuading anybody. Even allowing for some stubbornness on both "sides", he is unilaterally impeding progress towards making the page a GA.
  • A this point, I would see a block for anything other than 3RR as punitive, rather than preventative, and I doubt that EEng's opinion of his role at the page would change following the block. I share Johnuniq's concern about preventing EEng from making any contributions to a page where he truly does bring expertise about the subject matter.
  • It seems to me that the best action would be to topic-ban EEng indefinitely from editing Phineas Gage, but continuing to allow him to edit Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


  • Disappointed to see EEng here again; I think we may need a block at this point. I take John Vandenberg's point with a pinch of salt, as it contains zero diffs. If the problem was one caused by "mass-/automated-'cleanups'" we would not be here for the umpteenth time. This seems more like an OWN problem. Block or a topic ban? I don't know but I do know we cannot go on like this. --John (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I can't read all that. Who is interesting on working on the article? I don't mean who is interested in working on how template xyz displays some picture or transmits some bit of mysterious data to some other template, but who is interested in working on the article to provide information about the subject to a reader? If it is just EEng, you should leave him alone to get on with it and formatting be blowed. If it is genuinely other people too, then EEng needs to lighten up a bit about the formatting (who cares if the line splits midway through supercalifragilisticexpialidocious if nobody else can make out where supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is in the text when editing because of all the templates?). That's it, if anybody wants me, I'll be cutting a baby in half to stop two women arguing over it. Belle (talk) 18:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a significant group of editors who want in good faith to not only improve the page, but to make it a GA. This isn't a question of telling us to leave him alone, but it is a question of EEng needing to lighten up. (No babies were harmed in the posting of this reply.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I would include myself in the group who would like to help bring this article to GA but have been turned away by EEng's OWN and BATTLE behaviour. I would also encourage anyone interested in helping out here to read the last discussion here on this editor's conduct, which was archived without resolution a few weeks ago. I think we do need to take some sort of collective action here. --John (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Can we agree on a topic ban? I, for one, support an indefinite topic ban at Phineas Gage, while allowing continued editing at Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I would be happy to settle for a topic ban rather than a block. --John (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Question: Tryptofish, you don't seem to have made any response to EEng's explanation for the template formatting - that he was attempting to get "citations in alphabetical order by author name". I'm not saying that's the only problem, nor that his approach to that problem was the best one. But it seems like a reasonable explanation for what he saw as good faith improvements to the article. Do you except that explanation or not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
It may explain one or two edits, but not the larger issues here. If one goes over the talk page history, for example Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, the concerns are far more wide-ranging than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't arguing against that. I was searching for some admission of (at least some) good faith on the part of EEng. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Martinevans123, via the link given by EEng, the "citations in alphabetical order by author name" attempt was made over a year ago and before any of this mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I see. So it's not part of "this mess" at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Martinevans123 I don't believe it is part of this mess. But I may have missed something from the loooong talk conversations. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I've been AGF'ing for the longest time. Don't just look at Talk:Phineas Gage/Archive 6#WP:BRD, but also at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive829#Personal attacks and OWN violations. I'm hardly someone who is unsympathetic to him. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I know. The ongoing "discussions" you and EEng have had are the main reason I took that article off my watch list last year. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Then let's be very clear that I have not lacked for AGF. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • A topic ban for EEng and ChrisGualtieri I think are now in order, plus a minimal block for EEng for the latest round of edit warring. This is not just about styling, though placing 487 {{shy}} templates is extremely excessive. Arguments have also been over content and referencing. EEng and Chris are the most vocal. Taking both out of the equation would help any of the other editors get this to GA. Bgwhite (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Does EEng have any explanation for the 487 {{shy}} templates? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Martinevans123 If I understand correctly, EEng states MOS says you can use them (MOS:SHY), but says nothing on how many. If you want to consider style as part of the argument, I'd say judge for your self via this snapshot, before most of the mess started. Bgwhite (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
They look like aids to editing that might be dispensed with after a major article-wide edit had been completed. And invisible to the reader, of course. But I guess some other editors might find them troublesome. (In some future software release I suppose they might be part of user-definable edit skins). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Wee note. Another editor found them to be an issue, but I support EEng's use of them in captions and other tight places as per the Template's documentation. In our last discussion and EEng's last edits, he has resolved the vast majority of the issues. SHY appears to trigger on spelling check runs, but overall, they should remain as long as the perform a function. So the previous issue has actually been resolved, but getting to that point was a bit tougher than I would have liked. That's all. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Tryptofish, no offense, but do not blame me or EEng when you caused the mediation to be rejected. That's right you (the filer) caused it to be rejected. EEng felt it was premature and I didn't even get a chance to voice myself. You may mean well, but you certainly have gotten your facts wrong here. I ask that you strike your above comment about that. EEng should not be blocked, there is no reason to block because it'd simply be punitive. ANI is not a place for an RFC/U and it most certainly is not going to help when 5+ people all want this at GA. Tryptofish, you supported much of my changes, I realize my changes were far from perfect - and I'll admit that I was blindsided by all the errors in Macmillan 2000. You know better than anyone else that I also want this article to be GA or FA. EEng reacted with hostility and I have been afraid to try and deal with it since. Sorry if I add my voice to the pile, but I spent 40 hours researching Gage and I tried to work with EEng - but I do not need to be abused. I won't stay in such editing environments. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually, EEng's being receptive and fixed all the issues I had and then some. I do not think any MOS issue actually remains now. EEng fixed all the issues before this came to ANI with this edit. Why was this brought to ANI anyways? WP:CIVIL? Recently, he's been tense, but not anything outright 'disruptive'. I'm confused. Anyone care to explain why this is open still? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:46, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Here's a recent sample edit. EEng has been fighting for years to keep his idiosyncratic formatting in this article. Use of {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> is eccentric, disliked by other editors, and makes the article very difficult for others to edit. EEng has added this formatting many, many times and is currently at 4rr. He is arrogant and rude if challenged on his weird formatting and long-winded writing style, such that it is very difficult to work with him. Most people just walk away, which has reinforced EEng's feelings of ownership of the article. It's not viable to suggest we can go on like this. --John (talk) 05:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Chris, I feel a need to reply to what you said to me, although it also is becoming clear to me that nothing is going to come of this ANI thread. I can sympathize that you would want to respond to what I said (following what Bgwhite proposed, although subsequent talk separated my comment from his), but turning it back at me is a cheap shot, and I think you know it. Your diff simply shows that I withdrew the request, after seeing that no one besides me was willing to participate. I didn't cause you or anyone else to choose not to participate. You made that choice – and I remember diffs where you, first, came to me at my user talk to ask for my help and, then, were demanding dispute resolution and, later, turned tail when I started the mediation. Also, the reason given by Bgwhite was not related to the attempt at mediation. It was what he called your "most vocal" posture at the talk page. So my advice to you is to take notice of how Bgwhite, coming new to the page, perceived your conduct, and keep it in mind going forward, since undoubtedly this issue will crop up again. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Its interesting to look at the page statistics, EEng (talk Â· contribs) and ChrisGualtieri (talk Â· contribs) have between them contributed 81% of the article [22]. Although a couple of editors who've commented here pop in the number of edits, none of them have substantially contributed to the prose and do not appear in the top 10 contributors of text. Their sole contribution appears to be undoing EEng (talk Â· contribs)'s formatting style to substitute their own preference and its really for no benefit to the article. I dunno guys, there are plenty of really badly formatted articles out there but this isn't one of them. It may be idiosyncratic but it works and it works well - the article looks fantastic in WikiWand. I think some people are forgetting that wikipedia is first and foremost an exercise in writing an encyclopedia. So if your only interest is in formatting it "differently" I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. BedsBookworm (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Bit of a red herring. If your only interest is in making fallacious observations at an administrators' board I would suggest you find something better to do - like writing. --John (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

And so we arrive at the nub of the matter[edit]

It's even sadder than you make it sound, BedsBookworm. This bunch isn't changing the (visible) formatting of the article to be more attractive to the reader or conformant to MOS -- for the most part they're changing the internal, invisible markup to other markup that does exactly the same thing.

Are {{shy}}, {{hyp}} and <p> unusual? Yes. So what? Why does everything have to look like what some self-satisfied roving enforcers are used to?

Are these forms really "disliked by other other editors"? It depends on the kind of editor. If you mean "disliked by editors who show no interest in an article other than to make the markup look they way they think it should look, and who, out of nowhere, arrive to assert their personal preferences as 'rules', apply their mindless scripts, then rush off to clutter the edit histories of the next thousand articles (having had zero effect on what the reader sees)", then I guess Yes.

Oh... except sometimes they do affect on what the reader sees. As explained here, there are places where double-newline doesn't create a paragraph break as it usually does, and <p> must be used instead. Yet here's a high-handed edit (edit summary in full: "no need") taking out <p> in the places where there is, in fact, a need -- and thereby breaking the formatting. Then someone else has to take time to fix it. [23]

So the best thing these activities achieve is nothing, but now and then they screw something up. It's like the old joke about selling at a loss but making it up on volume.

If there's a lesson here, it's that Wikipedia needs a rule something like "Style and formatting should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia. Where more than one style is acceptable, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason" -- except that there already is such a rule, right at the top of each MOS page. (Take a look.)

I've been fond of quoting Beyond My Ken in recent days:

The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on. 03:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

ChrisGualtieri and I have had our serious differences, but at least he takes a longterm interest in the article—​Tryptofish too, of course. John may think this incident has reinforced my "ownership" of the article; I'd like to think it's raised awareness of the cumulative damage done, and the huge amounts of editor time wasted, by (I'll say it again) these self-satisfied roving enforcers. EEng (talk) 05:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Careful now EEng, you wouldn't want to get blocked by an uninvolved admin, would you. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

After the block[edit]

I'm saddened to see that there was a block, and I have some concerns about Bgwhite being involved. But, instead of being "the nub of the matter", I feel that EEng's post above was a saddening demonstration of why we have a problem, and a problem that will continue after the block is over. (It's certainly a textbook case of turning an ANI thread that was about to peter out as "no consensus" into something worse.) EEng, sincerely, I'm glad that you point out, just above, that I have a good-faith interest in the page, so please listen to me about this: The claim that the editors who express concerns about the page are simply driving by, and objecting to the formatting as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, without any legitimate interest in page content, has started to become a recurrent theme in this discussion, and it is wrong and needs to be refuted. It is starting to run afoul of WP:ASPERSIONS. What has happened at Talk:Phineas Gage over the past week or so is not anything like that. It is not just a matter of disliking something trivial that readers of Wikipedia do not see. After all, we can't have it both ways: it cannot be something that has caused "damage" to the page, and at the same time be something trivial and petty and unseen. What really did happen was a group of editors showing up in response to a call to make the page a WP:GA, and trying to work in good faith to that purpose, and then finding themselves in an edit war where each of them successively made either one or zero reverts, and you made all the opposing reverts unilaterally. It's a falsehood to say that the idiosyncratic page formatting is an accepted alternative, equal in the eyes of the editing community to what occurs on greater than 99% of all other pages. If all that formatting (not to even mention the more substantive issues about sourcing on the page) is a good idea, let's have a community RfC at WP:MOS and determine that the community thinks that. Until then, such a consensus does not exist. But the editors at the Gage talk page expressed concerns that are consistent with present-day Wikipedia consensus, and the talk page consensus was unambiguously against you. So let's put an end, right now, to this theme of calling the editors who have disagreed with you drive-by editors who do not care about page content. It's a lie. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

  • It's an offensive and disruptive lie and the block was merited for making and repeating it. John (talk) 07:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I think the block - done during the middle of this discussion - is not necessary a good thing (because now unless someone copy-and-paste stuff over from EEng's talk page, his opinions cannot be heard. Thus, I have added a {{DNAU}} for a few days so that this discussion is not archived before EEng gets a chance to reply here again. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 04:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
For those who took the weekend off, Bgwhite blocked me Friday night, calling my post above "harassment".
  • I posted the following (here edited somewhat) at my own talk page, in response to Bgwhite's block notice:
Noting that you blocked me for comments regarding you, I'll let the great John Stuart Mill explain how ridiculous you're making yourself look:
If the test [of what is offensive] be offence to those whose opinion is attacked, I think experience testifies that the offence is given whenever the attack is telling and powerful, and that every opponent who pushes them hard, and whom they find it difficult to answer, appears to them ... an intemperate opponent.
In other words, Bgwhite, it stings because it's true, you're mad because you can't think of anything to say in response, and as the person criticized you shouldn't take it upon yourself to decide whether the criticism is within bounds. I doubt I'll appeal this since there's more use letting it stand as a 48-hour monument to your thin-skinned pettiness.
EEng (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, Bgwhite had nothing to say.
  • Tryptofish says: We can't have it both ways: it cannot be something that has caused "damage" to the page, and at the same time be something trivial and petty and unseen. But I didn't say that each change was simultaneously damaging and petty/trivial/unseen. I said that each change was at best trivial/petty/unseen, but now and then one of them is damaging.
  • Here's the actual "lie" in this conversation (since apparently it's not OK to call other editors self-satisfied, but it's OK to call them liars): that the article violated MOS, or GA criteria, or the mysteriously unspecified "present-day Wikipedia consensus" to which Tryptofish refers; and/or that any of this posse have responded to my attempts to discuss their changes, other than to tell me they are five and I am only one.

  • Here's a diff [24] showing the hundreds and hundreds of changes which started this scuffle. Point out a few of the violations of MOS, or of the "present-day Wikipedia consensus", or of the WP:Good article criteria, being corrected here..
  • Here's a link [25] to my attempt to discuss these changes. Point out where anything more meaningful than "we outvote you" was said in response to my attempts to discuss.
  • Let's hear again how self-satisfied is hurtful namecalling, while accusations like "COI", "arrogant and rude" -- not to mention "lying" -- are thrown around with impunity in this very discussion.
EEng (talk) 07:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
(rolls eyes) Name calling is childish gaming to involve an admin who takes interest in any case on ANI. Doing it isn't going to make you immune.--v/r - TP 07:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm torn between rolling my eyes, too, or just wiping a tear from them. I got into this whole mess as someone who considered EEng a Wiki-friend, thinking that I was coming to take his side in a much earlier complaint, but I was surprised by what I actually saw, and for the longest time, I have tried to take a middle stance that opposed any sanctions against EEng. What tipped it for me was the unambiguous edit warring and unwillingness to accept consensus during the recent GA discussion. In the last ANI complaint about EEng, just a month ago, the discussion was about to quiet down when EEng needlessly re-inflamed it. The same thing happened above, in the post that prompted the block. And now, it has happened yet again, in the post-block comment directly above. Although I can understand that any editor might want to let off some steam after a block that they consider to have been unfair, I'm afraid that I cannot pass this off as simply that. EEng does not have to agree with other editors, but he is failing to acknowledge that they have non-petty concerns, and failing to indicate that he is willing to make an effort to work towards consensus, unless that consensus is what he personally prefers. The discussion here got off track with competing proposals to issue blocks and to topic ban another editor, but I suggest that the only way to get a meaningful conclusion is if editors will focus on this one editor. I still think we should topic ban EEng indefinitely from Phineas Gage, while continuing to allow access to Talk:Phineas Gage. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

Still waiting for even one actual example illustrating the alleged problems whose correction I was reverting[edit]

  • The true lesson of "The last ANI complaint about EEng" is quite different from the one Tfish implies. The OP of that thread (Johnuniq) complained that "recent behavior of User:EEng at WT:MOSNUM as disruptive ... EEng should be told to make an argument a couple of times, and then keep quiet". But none of the editors subsequently calling for my head in that ANI thread were participants in the MOSNUM discussion -- instead they were (surprise!) the same cast of characters seen piling on in this ANI thread. And in fact, in a subsequent MOSNUM discussion the following unsolicited compliments were posted by someone who actually was involved in the earlier MOSNUM discussion -- the one in which (according to Johnuniq) I had been so disruptive:
  • [26] The discussion on kWh was mostly good-natured, and it was resolved well with Eeng's stewardship
  • [27] If I had known about the proposed topic ban I would have opposed it. You are doing a good job. Consider toning down for newcomers not yet accustomed to your style, especially non-native English speakers who might not appreciate the wit.
It might add force to that editor's comments when I say that he and I completely disagreed about the issue under discussion until almost the very end.
  • I believe in the good faith of everyone here, but some are so certain that they've ceased to examine their own claims. So please, do what I asked in bold above, which is to open the diff linked there and point out two or three of the MOS violations, or "concerns consistent with present-day Wikipedia consensus", that were (as you've claimed) being addressed in that diff, and which I was therefore resisting or reverting. Unless you do that, everything you and John and Bgwhite say here falls to the ground.

EEng (talk) 23:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC) (P.S. Others e.g. Martinevans123, Nyttend, BedsBookworm, Ritchie333 -- please, everyone ping your favorites -- are encouraged to look at the diff as well, and opine.)

Threat?[edit]

Editor blockedGreen tickY admins thanksGreen tickY thread closedGreen tickY Amortias (T)(C) 22:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I checked the history of List of current Home and Away characters earlier and I believe 5summer78 (talk Â· contribs Â· deleted contribs Â· logs Â· edit filter log Â· block user Â· block log) has made a threat against me here: [28]. I understand that they are not happy with me for undoing their edits, but unfortunately they kept trying to add unsourced information, even after I asked them to provide a source. I hope this was the right place to post this, please point me in the right direction if not. - JuneGloom Talk 16:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure looks like one to me. I'd rev-del that edit summary and indef that editor KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
He's blocked. Up to you if you want to report it to the WMF.--v/r - TP 16:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I revdel'ed the edit. While I think it's more than likely a user overreacting, I've contacted the emergency team as a precaution. Current policy encourages you to treat all claims as being serious and that volunteers shouldn't be making the judgement call. Often times these comments are nothing more than empty threats made in anger, but it's something that shouldn't be left to chance. Mike V • Talk 17:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your help. - JuneGloom Talk 15:17, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Persisting disruptive editing despite dispute resolution[edit]

I have been contributing to the "Barlas" clan page on Wikipedia for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlas Recently, an editor named nawabmalhi added contentious assertions to the page - perhaps because they support the contentious assertions made by the founder of his religion, as evidenced by comments made on his page by other editors on other similar matters. In my case he added the vague word "Persianized" to the "Turco-Mongol" ethnic heritage of the Barlas, because the founder of his religion claimed to be Barlas and claimed to be "Persianized" which was a highly contentious claim then, and now. It simply is untrue. The editor used a marginal book on the Persians in support of this assertion. This editor has also changed the description of the Barlas empire from "Central Asia" to "Greater Persia." This is like calling present day France a "Roman Province." Additionally, he threatened me and while essentially vandalizing himself accused me of such. I took this to dispute resolution and here was the result after an over 7000 word discourse (included at the end of my request):

OMG, summarize instead of posting pages worth of text. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
The original discussion can be found here. There was no need to copy and paste the whole thing. The closing admin did not side with you, he told you to quit bickering. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson Thank you for the link to the Archives. I have never been through this process before and was unable to locate it earlier. This is why I posted the whole sequence of events. Thanks to your link I have now removed it from here to keep the posting concise.

The closing editor did not think there was credible or adequate evidence to change the wording of the article the way this editor wanted. This was my position as well.

Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


It was agreed that the wording would not be changed.

@Mdann52 NawabMalhi says "Overall we are in agreement" at the end of his last comment and so I suggest this matter be closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon(talk • contribs) 01:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Since I started this thread someone who specializes in Persian studies has also entered into the picture and is independently supporting the same position that it is not accurate to call this ethnic group "Persianized" and has reverted this wording to the last stable version which is fine with me.

Others have also said this as you can see on page history but this editor keeps persisting, as is self-evident on the page.

I just wanted to highlight how this editor was back at it after the matter being resolved and wanted to bring this to the attention of someone with more experience than me on Wikipedia. Someone who knew the ropes and could look at it dispassionately. This is because I recognized that last time around I got sucked into responding to this editor's repeated comments in bold directed at me etc. This did turn it into bickering, as the closing editor pointed out. That said, in the final analysis he did not see any merit in changing the wording to what this editor wanted and that is all I was getting at. And this editor agreed to the same.

This time around, as I have learned from the last process I will not take it as personally as I did when this editor tried to essentially change the ethnicity of our people and then kept persisting endlessly regardless of information provided. Thank you for responding to me. Jebenoyon (talk) 16:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson The edit discussed on the dispute resolution page and the edit I did recently are not the same at all and the recent edit was actually the compromise I was willing to do with Jebenoyon on the dispute resolution page when I said: Overall we are in agreement. The thing I agreed to was that I would not write that Barlas as a whole were Persianized, since the references that I provided on the dispute resolution were based off of the Timurids and Mughals (who are branches of the Barlas) and did not say the Barlas specifically.(even though all the references used in the Barlas article currently are related to the Timurids or Mughals). I this is what I told user Jebenoyon:

1.the source which you gave does mention the Timurids but the mention of a Barlas ancestor does not mean the ancestor gave the clan prominence but instead to soley trace the roots of the timurids.
2. Read the sources I gave you which shows that Even Timur was a ideal Perso-Islamic ruler
3. The timurids specifically along most of the Barlas were definetley persianized I gave you 8 valid sources
4. But I understand your point that maybe some segments may not have personally this is my first time hearing this
5. Till I find a source that specifically mentions Barlas in general I will not write persianized;however I do think it is important to mention that Timurids and Mughals were persianized and will reference this with the sources I gave you
6. And PLEASE understand that persianization in NOT ethnic but cultural Read persianization and Turko-Persian tradition
7. Again I did not threaten anyone to be honest you threatened report me I told you not to Edit War and asked Mdann52 if their was forum were a more specialized editor(in this area) could look at the issue

To be honest I think Jenebeyon is doing disruptive editing by deleting clear, concise, specific and very reliable Referenced material with many sources. --Thank You Nawabmalhi (talk) 23:01, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson As per your comments earlier Ian I will not repost all my comprehensive responses to the above as I am sure you can see them for yourself in the archives. I not only addressed each of nawabmalhi's sources but provided many more corroborating my position.

The closing editor started out with the statement below, as you can verify from the archives:

Hi. I am Mdann52, and am a volenteer here at DRN, however this does not give me any specific powers. Looking into the history of the article, the dispute appears to center around this type of edit. As the material is sourced, the burden of proof is on Nawabmalhi to show that reliable sources use the term as well. Are you able to show this? --Mdann52talk to me! 09:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Nawabmalhi then provided his sources. Below is the closing editor's response, as you can verify:

You need to provide a source that uses it in this context; A quick skim read of these shows that none of them appear to use the work in the context that is being discussed; Are you able to provide a source using it that can be used to support your dispute arguement (refering to this particularly, not just the general use of the word?). --Mdann52talk to me! 14:20, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

nawabmalhi then went on with most vigorously presenting all his information and the end result, as you can verify, was:

Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

@Mdann52 NawabMalhi says "Overall we are in agreement" at the end of his last comment and so I suggest this matter be closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon(talk • contribs) 01:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe that the solution was clear - that nawabmalhi had not met the burden of proof and the wording would not be changed. Now he is trying to go about it another way by changing the next few sentences.

I will address the changes nawabmalhi tried to make this time around:

Right above where it says on the page that the Barlas were a Mongol tribe that shared heritage with Genghis Khan, from the house of Borjigin, which always was and is still on the page, nawabmalhi tried to add a sentence about the Barlas "originating in Mogulistan," This is historically wrong - Mogulistan was a breakway Khanate that originated in the 14th Century - well after the Barlas were mentioned in the "Secret History of the Mongols" so this is provably factually wrong. Further, using "Mogulistan," which existed briefly 650 years ago, is similar to what this editor tried earlier by using "Greater Persia" instead of Central Asia. Mogulistan does not exist, just like "Greater Persia does not exist, and the Barlas certainly did not originate there. Then, he adds "Persia" into the mix again by saying like many other tribes settled in Persia and Central Asia -its the same thing he tried before but just done on the next few sentences - the end result is the same - the creation of the false image of the Barlas being "Persianized" in which regard he failed to meet the burden of proof last time in dispute resolution.

The other change nawabmalhi made to the page this time was based on one source as to where the Barlas clan lives today, as follows:

The Barlas clan is now spread out in Central Asia, South Asia, Middle East,Turkey, and the Caucasus region. Like many other Turko-Mongol Tribes settled in Persia and Central Asia Big History: From the Big Bang to the Present

You can see he Googled looking for validation of his pre-existing notion, which is a pattern if you see his sources which are basically Google searches like "Barlas+Persianization" etc. And for the record, there are many Barlas in North America, Europe and other parts of the world.

Barons in Scotland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barons_in_Scotland The Scottish Baron is the lowest official titled nobility in the United Kingdom. Unlike England's .... Alisdair John Barlas. Auchinleck

Barlas murder information finally released. - Mason City ... https://www.facebook.com/masoncitypolicescanner/.../58889875782765... MASON CITY — Tom Barlas Jr. claimed to have killed Satan as he left the family's Mason City home after allegedly stabbing his father, Tom Sr., to death July 18.

So there are Barlas worldwide, good and bad.

The point is when is a matter considered resolved? How many times can a guy keep going back and fiddling with things causing everyone to spend a ton of time - something most people get fed up with and walk away from - yet if that is what we do then it encourages this type of stuff.

Below is what another editor said, if you look at the history of the Barlas page, when nawabmalhi started fiddling with the wording to make it more consonant with his views:

22:56, 9 June 2014‎ Hibernian (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,337 bytes) (+89)‎ . . (All these edits are unnecessary, reverting the article back to how it was in April. This wording is perfectly fine

nawabmalhi still reverted it back to his version again. It was after that I got involved and after a time consuming and draining process it was agreed, as shown above, that the wording would not be changed. So now he goes and changes the next few lines with factually wrong information as I have shown above. The depth of his research is evident - superficial google searches to validate what he wants to show - this is not academic research in my opinion.

Now, since I started this thread here, someone who specializes in Iranian and Oriental studies, and has contributed to the Barlas page for long, like me, has reverted the wording back even from what I had reverted it to and to before the time nawab malhi started playing with it. Here is what he said:

(cur | prev) 09:37, 29 August 2014‎ Lysozym (talk | contribs)‎ . . (5,223 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (restoring last stable version; the Barlas were not fully "Persianized", only partially in terms of culture; and they were "Turkicized" Mongols and they were fully aware of their Mongol origin and identity) (undo | thank)

In conclusion Ian, I submit that the page is fine as is, and if every time we reach a resolution this editor goes back and fiddles with the next sentence, when will it stop? If he wants to change what has worked fine on Wikipedia by consensus until he came along, and has conflicted with 3 or 4 editors on the page in as many months, does he not need to meet the burden of proof? And in this case I submit he clearly hasn't, just like what the closing editor said in the last case. It is unfortunate he got annoyed with the bickering but he clearly stated that no changes were to be made to the wording and now this editor, after a few weeks, starts fiddling with it again. I believe this editor is abusing the process, is the one being disruptive, and wasting everyone's time with superficial sources he does not fully understand as they are based on goggle searches and therefore he presents them out of context and is simply interested in getting his version onto the page somehow. This needs to be addressed. Thank you for your time and consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon (talk • contribs)

@Ian.thomsonThe edit discussed on the dispute resolution page and the edit I did recently are not the same at all and the recent edit was actually the compromise I was willing to do with Jebenoyon on the dispute resolution page when I said: Overall we are in agreement
Now I'll answer all of user Jebenoyon's twisted accusations:
Dispute resolution Noticeboard:
1.The reason why Mdann said at first the sources were out of context were because they used Timurids and Mughals(a subset of Barlas) but later I explained to him that Timurids are part of the Barlas and his position changed
2.Then Jeneboyon argued that not all Barlas as a whole were persianized because only the Timurids were not the only Barlas
3. Then Mdann said that might be WP:SYNTH and I said I will not write Barlas are Persianized as a whole but it is important the only two Notable Subsets of the Barlas were Persianized which is undeniable historical fact and afterwards Mdann made a new proposed resolution.
My Edit:
1. Here is part of my edit with which Jeneboyon has contention with (different from dispute resolution):

The Barlas clan is now spread out in Central Asia, South Asia, Middle East,Turkey, and the Caucasus region. Like many other Turko-Mongol Tribes settled in Persia and Central Asia[1][2], many subsets of the Barlas such as the Mughals and Timurids were persianized[3] [4] and made created elaborate Persianate Court Cultures.[5]


2.Now I have not done WP:SYNTH since the sources I use directly use the Timurid and Mughals and meet required burden of proof.
3.My references are valid written by credible historians and I provide the page numbers and use Google books links a reliable way to search through millions of books so that people can look at the references.
4. I sticked to my promise to not write Barlas in general are persianized but instead I am very specific and willing to provide even more reliable Sources if needed.
5. Jebenoyon cannot just remove historical facts that are referenced clearly and then blame the other user for disruptive edits
Other editors don't agree:
1.One of the editors Jebenoyon mentions is Hibernian this is what he restored it too:

The Barlas (Chagatay/Persian: برلاس‎ Barlās; also Berlas; Mongolian: Barlas) were a Turkified Mongol[6][7] nomadic confederation in Central Asia, later Persianized and were settled and assimilated in Greater Persia.[8][9]

3.If Jebenoyon wants to go back to the version Hibernian restored (I am fine with it) but the reality is he will not
4. Then he mentions Lysozym who actually agrees with me that the Barlas were persianized culturally(persianization is only cultural anyway, there is no ethnic persianization)

Jebenoyon should not and cannot delete clear, concise, specific and very reliable Referenced material with many sources written by credible historians and I provide the page numbers and use Google books links. Jebenoyon cannot just remove historical facts that are referenced clearly and then blame the other user for disruptive edits.--Nawabmalhi (talk) 17:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

References
  1. ^ Big History: From the Big Bang to the Present By Cynthia Stokes Brown
  2. ^ Landlord and Peasant in Persia: A Study of Land Tenure and Land Revenue Administration By Ann S. K. Lambton Pg.77
  3. ^ Imperial Identity in Mughal Empire: Memory and Dynastic Politics in Early Modern Central Asia (Library of South Asian History and Culture) By Lisa Balabanlilar Pg.154
  4. ^ Timurids In Transition: Turko-Persian Politics & Acculturation In Medieval Iran Volume 7 By Maria E. Subtelny Pg.42
  5. ^ Periods of World History: A Latin American Perspective By Charles A. Truxillo Pg.130
  6. ^ B.F. Manz, The rise and rule of Tamerlan, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge 1989, p. 28: "... We know definitely that the leading clan of the Barlas tribe traced its origin to Qarchar Barlas, head of one of Chaghadai's regiments ... These then were the most prominent members of the Ulus Chaghadai: the old Mongolian tribes — Barlas, Arlat, Soldus and Jalayir ..."
  7. ^ M.S. Asimov & C. E. Bosworth, History of Civilizations of Central Asia, UNESCO Regional Office, 1998, ISBN 92-3-103467-7, p. 320: "… One of his followers was […] Timur of the Barlas tribe. This Mongol tribe had settled […] in the valley of Kashka Darya, intermingling with the Turkish population, adopting their religion (Islam) and gradually giving up its own nomadic ways, like a number of other Mongol tribes in Transoxania …"
  8. ^ Encyclopædia Britannica, "Timur", Online Academic Edition, 2007. Quotation: "Timur was a member of the Turkicized Barlas tribe, a Mongol subgroup that had settled in Transoxania (now roughly corresponding to Uzbekistan) after taking part in Genghis Khan's son Chagatai's campaigns in that region. Timur thus grew up in what was known as the Chagatai khanate." ...
  9. ^ G.R. Garthwaite, "The Persians", Malden, ISBN 978-1-55786-860-2, MA: Blackwell Pub., 2007. (p.148)

@Ian.thomson As you can see Ian, this editor goes on and on, arguing this way and that way and endlessly - this is what I got drawn into last time and this is why the closing editor was annoyed because he came back to a ton of messages directed at him.

All these arguments nawabmalhi is making, he made before, repeatedly, and then some. The closing editor did not feel they were adequate to change the wording the way nawabmalhi wanted. The whole issue was that nawabmalhi wanted to say the Barlas were "Persianized" and that they lived in "Greater Persia." At the end of it all, as the Archives show, the closing editor said

Proposed solution[edit] I think the best solution I can prose, with the evidence presented here, is that the existing wording of the article remains. Unless I see any decisive evidence (as opposed toWP:SYNTH and sources failing WP:RS, I will close this shortly. --Mdann52talk to me! 06:03, 9 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebenoyon (talk • contribs)

This should have been the end of the story. Now the proposed edits nawabmalhi wants to make amount to the same thing - so he is essentially re-arguing the entire case with you, against what was agreed to - by parsing words. I brought this here for a review of his conduct in persisting to try and create the same impression after a resolution he agreed to against doing so - if you think this is OK for him to do then I guess the next step would be arbitration because I don't think he will stop unless there is a binding resolution on this - I think there is more than enough here for you to decide what the closing editor's intent was, what was agreed to, and what the current proposed changes amount to. Let me add in conclusion that the way the page is now is fine with me, and it was reverted to this version by Lysozym and not me. If you notice, there were no issues on this page until this gentleman entered the picture. Jebenoyon (talk) 21:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

@Jebenoyon Sorry, you don't want me to respond when you bring me administrator incident board? (I have to) You cannot delete clear, concise, specific and very reliable Referenced material with many sources written by credible historians and with the page numbers and use Google books links. And I looked at the edit history you removed the referenced material not user Lysozym
@Ian.thomson I told Jebenoyon clearly at DRN I would not write Barlas in general were persianized But it is important to mention the only two notable Branches of Barlas(Timurids and Mughals) were Persianized. The edit discussed on the dispute resolution page and the edit I did recently are very different and was the compromise Jebenoyon and I reached at DRN. And meets the Burden of Proof, specific and are verifiable which cannot be deleted. @Ian.thomson and please read my previous responses to his allegations he continues to repeat stuff, so my posts get drowned out by his. --Nawabmalhi (talk) 22:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Can someone please get Elizium23 to stop threatening me?[edit]

Situation resolved, no further action required.  Philg88 â™¦talk 20:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can someone please get Elizium23 to stop threatening me? They keep inventing and escalating problems when everyone else is being pretty helpful. I don't appreciate being threatened every time they don't get their way, like when they tried to delete the article. Masioka (talk) 17:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Dispute resolution is thataway also read up on WP:Boomerang, some of your edits have been disruptive and there appears to be a lack of wiling to provide reliable sources to back up your claims. Amortias (T)(C)
I'm attempting to get the threats to end, other people are already intervening to resolve the disputed content (all of it has been kept despite that editor's attempts to remove it and delete the entire article). I have been providing reliable sources the whole time. The other editor maybe doesn't like what they say, however the sources are reliable. Masioka (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
This is a content dispute, not an ANI matter and the "threats" are warnings about disruptive editing. Please continue your conversation with Elizium23 at Talk:World Congress of Families or as Amortias suggests, take it to Dispute Resolution if you prefer. I'd hate to see this escalate into something that might actually warrant the attention of this board. Thanks.  Philg88 â™¦talk 18:12, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
It's more than a content dispute. It's a behavioral issue and I was inches away from my own ANI filing anyway, so let's have it out now. Masioka is a WP:SPA come here to POV push on one article, World Congress of Families. She has edit-warred with me, deleted a maintenance tag out of process, made a personal attack against me, and now she has taken to using the Talk page as a soapbox for advocacy of anti-conservative polemics and bile. It's beginning to border on copyright violation as she copy-pastes from sources, too. So she has within the space of a couple of days clearly represented to me that she is not here constructively. Elizium23 (talk) 19:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I have to wonder now, given the prominence of WCF on HRC's home page, whether Masioka is somehow associated with, and/or on the payroll of, the Human Rights Campaign. Perhaps a checkuser could determine that, or Masikoa's good faith declaration yea or nay on this page. Elizium23 (talk) 21:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Um, do you have any other evidence of a connection between the OP and HRC besides both not liking the WCF, which is something quite a lot of people dislike? Nil Einne (talk) 01:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think it's just a random accusation. Elizium, I think you need to relax. People are allowed to disagree with you without being site banned. Maybe lay off the templates for a while, too. Masioka is pushing an obvious POV, but it's not the end of the world. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Posting four (4!) "you may be blocked" templates to a users Talk page within a 24-hour period is beyond excessive and can have no logical purpose except to threaten and intimidate. While these templates may not be seen as either of those things to an experienced editor, to a new or novice editor they can often be misconstrued as official warnings. Any issues with copyright, etc., should be handled in an appropriate forum and not by harassing the violator. The templates are not designed to be used as a cudgel. DocumentError (talk) 07:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think NinjaRobotPirate is correct, I overreacted in this case. It is worth mentioning that I have gone through some stress recently in my real life and I'm letting off some steam right now. It would've been a good time to disengage and take a WikiBreak instead of pounding on the Twinkle so much. So to Masioka and the community, I apologize for my role in this incident. But I stand by what I said earlier, including the suspicion of WP:COI; the pattern and the coincedences fit the profile, that is all I can say at the moment. I have worked frequently with disruptive COI editing and have developed a feel for it. Of course, this doesn't really add anything even if it were true because COI editors are not prohibited from any kind of editing anyway. Elizium23 (talk) 13:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a reasonable and well-meaning apology. I've placed Masioka's Talk page on my watchlist, as an assurance to him, and I think this matter can now be wrapped up. DocumentError (talk) 02:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Disruptive editing by Jakobrots500 (talk)[edit]

I would like to report disruptive editing of this user on Massachusetts road articles, in particular Interstate 95 in Massachusetts. This user has been adding unsourced information to the Exit list and has been reverted many times. I took time to go through reliable references [29] to settle on the content, but this user has not stopped adding such unverifiable information. I have reached out to the user for a discussion, but requests have been ignored. The user also did not respect a standard at WP:RJL on other articles, but the article mentioned above is the most apparent.

Diffs demonstrating disruption after references were added: [30], [31], [32], [33] Chinissai (talk) 22:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Some mobile users appear to completely miss the notification system (despite the big red number), or otherwise seem to think we can't block them. Inability to read messages and refusal to read messages don't really have different effects on the community, but because there's the chance he simply doesn't know what the big red number at the top of the screen is, a block shouldn't more than 24 hours. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Unsourced information is not the same as unverifiable information. It perfectly OK to add unsourced information, as long as it is verifiable. And indeed if we can't verify it after consulting the user (who in this case is not responding), we remove it, and inform the user (exactly as Chinissai did, of course). If they continue to add it back that is disruptive - I'm not sure from the description above if they are re-adding the same information.
Having said that the pattern of making many edits, being reverted, and carrying blithely on, perhaps using as a reference an outdated US road atlas of some type, is disturbing.
It is important to contact this editor, who may have more than one account. I notice that User:RyGuy012 has an email contact set up. This might be the next best step, if they are confirmed to be the same person.
Clearly if they do not engage, and continue to make only edits which are reverted they will be likely to end up blocked, and sooner rather than later.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough00:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC).
Thanks to Ian and Rich for your comments. Sorry for the potential mixup of terminology. The user has been adding information (in this case, destinations) without citing a reference; I gather this is unsourced information. When I tried to verify these destinations with Google Street View, these additions do not follow WP:RJL that the destinations should reflect the actual signs on the road; I gather this is unverifiable information. In other words, this user has been adding unsourced information that is unverifiable. I hope this clears up any confusion. As of now, the user has not added more edits to any more articles since the first reporting. I will keep you posted if the incident resumes. Chinissai (talk) 17:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

[Behavior/Misconduct] User:Semitransgenic[edit]

Wasn't there also a User conduct noticeboard about behavior and etiquette a few decades back? I will fill my report here, I really am sorry but I could not find the specific board unless the policies have changed and it has been merged with another in which this board has to be close to the right noticeboard for this kind of issue.

User:Semitransgenic has a very colorful way of responding to random people and sure if this is how he talks home or to his mother then good for him but he will not talk this way to me. This disgusting display of human behavior stayed up right there, above a newer post of an (NPA redacted again...don't repost it ItsAlwaysLupus) administrator](!) who chose to say absolutely nothing, for one(!!) entire month without no one taking a notice not even the administrators which is a complete failure to contain a breach on both sides, the administrators and Semitransgenetic, who even had time to amend his position and apologize for some of the most disturbing comments I have ever seen on the entire internet but choose not to. It is saddening to see comments like these slip right through because it really shows poor integrity of individual users here. There is no point of being preachy here but people like him don't belong on Wikipedia unless Wikipedia was a discussion board of homemade moonshine-makers and avid wife beaters and even then it would not be acceptable the way he reacted. I demand a sincere apology from him because there is simply no reason or to act like this to your fellow user on Wikipedia. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 00:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Other than the WP:NPA violation of calling someone a "prick", not much there. WP:WQA is sadly long gone, and since the NPA is a month ago, not much we can do at this point. It's also nowhere near the level of "disgusting display" that you suggest the panda ₯’ 00:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I knew the board didn't disappear completely but I started to think I made it up in my mind since even my browser couldn't fetch any relevant pages on Google which was strange. Anyhow I don't care about how normal or ordinary you think his comments are it's his hostile tone that you should be offended about not even what words and how many expletives were used in the process because it makes no harm to anyone, it only hurts his reputation and shows what a character he is. That is insignificant. What is not insignificant however is that a full scale ad hominem-fueled "personal attack" just slipped under all radars implying that it happened and it will happen again unless he is penalized whichever way you find to be the best but not too low because again this is not an innocent accident of two clueless parties but a well-construed personal attack that some people usually take to the courts so it would be preposterous to dismiss it as "not much there." ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Calling someone a "prick" and saying things like "get a life" lower the level of discussion on WP, tend to inflame and provoke in-kind responses, and create an unfriendly and hostile edit environment. At the same time, implying Semitransgenic is a "moonshine-maker" or "avid wife beater" does the same thing. I think if there were direct admin intervention in these incidents at this initial stage we would see less instances where they fester and snowball into events that result in indefinite blocks. I would very much like to see both ItsAlwaysLupus and Semitransgenic receive a 24-hour block. DocumentError (talk) 07:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I held Wikipedia in high esteem until this happened and I hope it won't happen again. I did not come to Wikipedia to be insulted. Perhaps the policies have changed between the times I wasn't here and it is now okay to attack users perhaps even using racial slurs, learned internet tough guy phrases and of course our favorite penis references in which case I would not bother taking my case here and dealt it with Semitransgenic personally. Also please stop putting words in my mouth, I did not call Semitransgenic a "moonshine-maker" or "avid wife beater" I was merely reflecting on his sick behavior. Is this a public open-court thing that non-administrators are allowed to this discussion? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure what that would achieve, since this incident has clearly been drawn out over a long period of time. The diff in question is this, definitely not "spam", and during the edit war Semi brought his concern up on the talk page here and there was no real effort from Lupus to discuss the point at hand. Name calling doesn't help, neither does putting warning templates on experienced users' talk pages or wrongly accusing them of spam, and the hyperbolic sky-is-falling tone used in this report is quite frankly ridiculous. Maybe apologise to each other and civilly focus on the content dispute? – filelakeshoe (t / c)  14:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
If copying the entire poriton of one article and inserting it in a hardly coherent section in a second article is not "spam" then I am sure you will educate me on the right terminology. Meanwhile I see it as a spam because he continued in that endeavor more than twice and actually past 3RR but in an extended period of time because not everyone has time to be an editing warrior on Wikipedia so that went unnoticed as well. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
These type of questions can seem hyperbolic until one is the subject of the vitriol be leveled. I think we should work to empathize with User:ItsAlwaysLupus rather than dismissing his concerns as overblown. I would, personally, have my enjoyment of WP lessened if someone was using this type of language toward me. DocumentError (talk) 21:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with DocumentError. I just noticed this thread when looking back at something els, and I do not know all the background. I'm not asking for a block, given the time passed, but the English Wikipedia really needs to get better at not standing for the kind of discourse that I see in the two diffs at the top of this thread. We should expect better of one another. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

User:ItsAlwaysLupus has a track record of spewing sentiment that contravenes WP:AGF, some difs:

  • [34] edit summary: "How many times do I need to cancel your anti-NPOV crusade" = Bad Faith
  • [35] a false accusation of spamming an article by placing a spam warning on user talk page = Bad Faith
  • [36] edit summary: "Spam-pushing unrelated sources" a false accusation = Bad Faith
  • [37]edit summary: "rv Semitransgenic spammer" = Bad Faith
  • [38] edit summary: "Nice brutal South Africa apartheid era-like attempt to annihilate any slightest hints that point to a music style while abusing the same sources to compose the "era" hypothesis intro." = Bad Faith

I ignored the above instances of bad faith behavior, but when it arrived on my talk page, I requested that this user cease from making intentionally inflammatory, and completely false accusations, the user chose to ignore this request. Semitransgenic talk. 09:58, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

This is without a doubt one of the worst occurences of someone grasping at straws this hard I have ever seen. You not only show no remorse but also are springing so hard to come up with a counterattack even as bad as it is. This guy is unbelievable! Sullying the other party's credibility with anything he could scrape off the barrel but he absolutely fails at giving explanation for his vicious attack. Oh well, if only I forgot that it is voluntary to post here and not bound by any legal obligation. (: ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
This is all, also, clearly unacceptable behavior and uses words whose only purpose can be to inflame and provoke. I, therefore, reiterate my call to subject both ItsAlwaysLupus and Semitransgenic to a 24-hour block. This is the minimum block and should not be seen as punishment but as a record-creation action that would allow future violations to be quickly and succinctly addressed by reference to the block as a benchmark point; it would be easy to sort-out who was the problem editor in the future by viewing editor actions from the date of the block forward. I call on both Semitransgenic and ItsAlwaysLupus to volunteer for such a block. Whomever volunteers first will be seen as a leader willing to put WP first, and whomever volunteers second will be seen as a team player willing to work with other. Whomever doesn't volunteer for the block will be seen in an unflattering light. DocumentError (talk) 16:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
You certainly deserve a trophy for the loudest person here but what's with those tacky ways of making your random sentences bold to influence anyone's decision. Seriously? ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
ItsAlwaysLupus is hereby blocked for 24 hours. This is a contingency block, meaning I don't have any power to enforce it at this time, but I am making a mental note to apply it if I become an admin. DocumentError (talk) 03:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I just removed your comments about Ed Johnston. Using personal attacks against an administrator isn't going to help you at all, especially since your'e complaining about a user being rude to you . KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 17:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
KoshVorlon, please. No one has mentioned [redacted]'s name here as seen here except you. You can't just force me to accept your patronizing opinions on me then trying to silence me by performing an unauthorized access into my text. I am against bold-splaining as much as the next person but do not ever attempt, as a non-administrator, to censor my text. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
If the text violates NPA, then yes, I will remove only the NPA violating part of the text. I don't need to be an administrator to do that. In the same way, I would accept any revert on any text I post the violates NPA as well. Once again, attacking an admin here, when y ou're complaining about being attacked doesn't help your case. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 11:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I will accept the proposed 24 block but only on the condition that an overall consensus to impose this punishment is demonstrated here. Semitransgenic talk. 18:01, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
There is no need to use voluntary blocks to document anything. At this point, it's simple. Both editors need to recognize that two wrongs do not make a right, and both editors need to cut it out. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Very concise, very short. I like your post. The discussion as it is now sadly won't lead anywhere because this is a classic children waging a "pointing fingers at each other" war, that I called some of his edits a "spam" (I stand by my words that what he did he did overstep his boundaries and went on just plain destructive behavior but perhaps there is another less "bad" word for that) and he now points back at me saying bad faith which is pointless name-calling so his word has as much worth as mine in this particular example but he uses it to divert attention from the fact that he done wrong and ain't gonna apologize. ItsAlwaysLupus (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
This thread is getting tediously dense in personal attacks. I don't see a single diff here that shows how Semitransgenic spammed the project, engaged in "destructive behavior", or assumed bad faith. Coming here and demanding an apology (seriously?), blowing off your own disruptive behavior with personal attacks, and then making baseless accusations make me think that maybe you are the one who should be blocked. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

User:StanTheMan87[edit]

Every time the image of Mullah Omar is deleted [39] right away StanTheMan87 (talk Â· contribs) uploads another copy of the same image. On his user page he wrote "I detest wik-i-diots." [40], He's edit-warring on Taliban page [41] and pov pushing on other pages. Looks to me like single purpose account with specific agenda and likely another editor's sockpuppet.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 02:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


I re-upload that image becuase I see no reason as to why it must be taken down on a supposed copyright violation when it's in the Public Domain being published by the U.S State Department. "I detest wik-i-diots" is in reference to users such as Dannis243 who revert edits without justifying them, as you can see [42]. POV pushing? Since when is citing sources on the documented elimination of minorities under the Taliban regime POV pushing? See [43] Single purpose account? Since when is it an offense to edit articles based on historical interest? See [44] [45] [46] [47] Specific agenda? Please, am I meant to be some agent of the Taliban, when I upload a U.S State Department wanted image of their leader onto Wikipedia for scholarly discussion? I do it for Wikipedia's benefit and those that use it, not for my own self-gratification. Sock puppetry? I only have one account, launch some sort of investigation if it pleases you. StanTheMan87 (talk) 03:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

As for the image, in my experience US government websites tend to be pretty bad about actually ensuring the images they host are PD, though in most cases those sites don't have the kind of claim the RFJ website does. A big issue is that, at least on the file page, the date and author of the photograph are unknown. The type of image suggests it wasn't taken clandestinely, but instead professionally... it seems likely the image is not PD. It should probably be deleted. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Given that the FAQ on the RFJ cite does specify that images that have copyright will be tagged as such and reusers are required to get the proper rights for reuse for those, and this image is not tagged with that, then it is not our fault that the RFJ misclaimed this as PD; they are an authorative source here, and thus I see no issue with calling that image PD, unless we can ultimately verify that it is a true copyvio. --MASEM (t) 03:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I just don't think it's a credible claim of being in the PD. It has a number of markings indicating it's a studio photo. And without the original source, author, or place of publication, how are we to really evaluate the claim that it's in the PD? At least military photos will tell you the name and rank of the photographer who took an image, and give you an indication of when and where it was taken. This has absolutely nothing. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I would think or hope that the people in charge of that site did sufficient research to chase down the source for the image. Also keep in mind: the US does not respect copyrights of certain countries (the ones listed with "none" in here), so if this photo originated from one of those countries, the US gov't would consider it public domain. --MASEM (t) 03:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
That's all well and good, but at the very least my experience (and I'm sure that of others) has borne out that most federal agencies have no clue what's going on when it comes to copyright. The fact that there is no source, author, or date information only makes it worse. We just don't know. This is a pretty straightforward application of the same precautionary principle used over at Commons. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 04:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
So the monkey selfie stays, and a picture of a dangerous human goes? Come on. Try not to make Wikipedia look stupid. Maybe at least wait until someone actually complains to Wikimedia about that photo - which is highly unlikely. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:25, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I could find no evidence of 3RR by User:StanTheMan87, the issue of the image's copyright is clearly open to debate as seen above and ANI is not the correct venue to broach the topic, interest in a specific topic is not a hallmark of a single-issue account, sock inquiries should be brought up in a different forum, and make an uncivil statement like "I hate wik-idiots" without directing it at a specific user doesn't seem to violate WP:CIVIL. DocumentError (talk) 07:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

If I may have an input into this discussion, is it possible if the U.S government purposefully enhanced the quality of the image https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mullah_Omar.png from the undoubtedly original version http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/120123_r21781_p323.jpg for identification purposes? This is directed at Mendaliv (talk Â· contribs) who suggested said image was taken professionally as opposed to clandestinely. StanTheMan87 (talk) 07:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Suggest that a thread at WP:PUF be opened to discuss the image issues, to separate out if any admin action is necessary --MASEM (t) 14:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
The image is NOT one of those mug shots created by a U.S. federal government employees. It is obviously a pre-2001 Afghanistan made image. Other websites may use it but it cannot be used in Wikipedia. Plus, the guy in the picture cannot be verified as being Mullah Omar, it's just speculation. StanTheMan87 uploaded it to Commons and it was deleted, he then uploaded to Wikipedia and it was deleted and now he re-uploaded it. He seems to be obsessed with this image. I think he's stirring some kind of trouble in Wikipedia. See this, he removed image of Zalmay Khalilzad and replaced it with a well known bad guy (Mullah Omar). That is obviously not a good faith edit.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 15:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Who do you imagine is going to sue Wikipedia over it? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, the US does not have a copyright agreement with Afghanistan and about 9 other countries (usual suspects here) as it does with most others as it has set up through the Berne convention. As such, even if it was a Afghanistan photo, the US (and specifically the RFJ site) will consider it in the PD. I do note that Jimmy Wales has asked us, when considering works from these areas, that we still do respect their copyrights, but we would probably need evidence that this came from there --MASEM (t) 16:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Given the absurdity of Wikimedia's position on these matters, maybe just replace the wanted-poster picture with the monkey selfie. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Copyright agreement with Afghanistan is irrelevant because we don't have any evidence that an Afghan photographer actually took the photo but can only guess. Another problem is that we don't even know if this really is Mullah Omar. Suppose it is not him then we (Wikipedia) would be deliberately misleading the world at large, sort of protecting the real Mullah Omar. The other issue is that StanTheMan87 copied this image from the New Yorker [48] and used another website (RFJ) in the source. (notice the one at RFJ is tiny).--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Do valid sources say it is him? Also, try google-image for the subject and see what turns up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
If CIA can't be sure then we must forget about searching for valid sources. The monkey selfie (File:Macaca nigra self-portrait.jpg) is a better choice than uploading an image of an unknown person as the leader of Islam.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 01:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, in response to User:Krzyhorse22 comment on the re-uploading of the image, yes it is true I have uploaded it twice. I have no idea as to why is was ever removed, which is precisely why I re-uploaded it. I thought that adding a PD image to an article in which no image was present would benefit Wikipedia and those that might come across the article for their own private use in order to enhance discussion. We have images of infamous people such as Saddam Hussein, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden so as to expand users understanding of the people they represent. I thought I was making an important contribution but clearly by all the uproar I have created, I was gravely mistaken. Secondly, I added Mullah Omar to the article Pashtun People as a.) He is an ethnic Pashtun and b.) I thought it more appropriate to insert a former Afghan head of state over a former U.S ambassador based on the fact that Afghanistan is the homeland of Pashtuns. There is an image of Saddam Hussein in the article entitled Iraqi People [49] and an image of Joseph Stalin in the article entitled Georgians [50], so clearly by those examples, a person's moral reputation cannot exclude them from being depicted as a part of the ethnic group in which they are a member of. Finally, in regards to the alleged "speculation" over authenticity of the image pertaining to be Mullah Omar, a source from the U.S government is as good as any source if not better, in establishing who is and who isn't an individual, especially one focusing on the apprehension of criminals by the U.S State Department. If the intelligence community of the U.S government are advertising a $10 million bounty for the capture of Mullah Omar, than that is good enough proof to conclude it is indeed him. If User:Krzyhorse22 disagrees, than the onus falls on him to prove otherwise. Allow me to reiterate: With regards to the person being depicted in the image [51], the U.S government believes that the person in the photograph is the person being represented in the article. If User:Krzyhorse22 challenges this assertion, than he/she should take it up with the U.S State Department, as well as the entire intelligence community of the U.S government. StanTheMan87 (talk) 03:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
It was deleted because it is simply not allowed in Wikipedia. You swapped Khalilzad's image (first Muslim/first Afghan to serve as U.S. Ambassader) with Mullah Omar (a wanted terrorist who only ruled part of Afghanistan as a warlord). This is obviously your attempt to make a particular ethnic group look evil. Pashtun people are not limited to Afghanistan. Like others, they live all around the world and that article is not intended for Afghans but for English readers. You're falsifying articles [52] [53] [54] , adding unreliable/mirror sites as sources [55]. BTW, I just called the head of CIA and he said nobody is sure if that guy in the image is the real Mullah Omar. So now you either accept that monkey face or go find clear evidence.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 00:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You have not answered my question, why it is "simply not allowed in Wikipedia"? Elaborate please. My evidence is better than your here-say. I have a certified U.S government source, and the Berne Convention supporting my claim that the image in the Public-Domain, least in the U.S from my knowledge but could also be elsewhere. You have your own rhetoric based on what it appears to be personal and moral objections on the image in question. That's not good enough for removing a perfectly valid image which has 100% relevance on to the article in which it is on. Your claim that I am falsifying articles is baseless, those edits are cited with a source, upon source. Every link you add in which you claim I am somehow ruining Wikipedia is in fact just showing how little you know about Wikipedia. This very discussion for example, shouldn't even exist here. The allegations you have brought against me have been refuted, by User:DocumentError and you just look foolish. I'm not even going to consider responding to your interpretation of what is morally good or evil, which is POV, you should know that Wikipedia is supposed to espouse neutrality, and even when editing the Taliban article I have mentioned atrocities they have committed as both a regime and militia See [56] and [57] so don't even dare accuse me of being some sort of jihadist web sock-puppet. On your supposed phone call with the "head of the CIA", you'll have to submit some sort of evidence in writing, and the CIA will have to also corroborate on your claim. Your claim is therefore not reputable, as you have stated it yourself, it could easily be purely a fabrication and you clearly have a one-sided view on this discussion, as you are pursuing for the image to be removed, and reporting me for all vices under the sun. So now you can either accept the PD image or go find clear evidence. Toodles. StanTheMan87 (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You just called John O. Brennan to consult with him on a Wikipedia ANI? Count me impressed. DocumentError (talk) 16:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
StanTheMan87, without permission, you copied the image from http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/mullah-omars-face . That's why it is not allowed in Wikipedia. About the reward for justice site, whenever it uses an image for its own purposes, it does not mean Wikipedia can do the same. That site is referring to people who want to use their content for personal use. Wikipedia has strict rules, I don't need to teach you go read for yourself. I'm sure you know all of this but pretending stupid. The evidence is that you deliberately concealed the newyorker.com from the file's description but instead posted reward for justice. That's a typical fraud act. Stop ranting about the image, which will get deleted where it is nominated. I reported you here for disrupting Wikipedia. Don't argue with me, admins can see what you're doing. Behave and you won't be getting reported.
DocumentError, it was a joke. If I did you know what he would say.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That image existed long before 2012, the date in the New Yorker article you linked. In the interest of wrapping up this frivolous filing so it doesn't drag on forever, I'd like to ask StanTheMan87 to just stop replying. I regret to be the one to inform you, but you're clearly insane. DocumentError (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

IP making gross WP:BLP violations.[edit]

Dayalbagh (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views)

24.125.121.9 (talk Â· contribs), who claims to be "familiar with wikipedia policies" [58] seems nevertheless intent on repeatedly violating said Wikipedia policies - initially by restoring material previously added to the Dayalbagh article a year ago, concerning an alleged murder, which was deleted for multiple reasons - not least because it was sourced to scans posted on facebook, misrepresented sources, reported allegations as fact, and was self-evidently using the Dayalbagh article as a coatrack (my deletion from a year ago [59] - identical to the material added twice by the IP [60][61]). Having engaged this contributor once more (after removing said material, which was then restored by the IP, only to be removed again by another contributor), and tried to explain the problems again (though I strongly suspect he current IP is the same person who posted the policy-violating material in the first place) the IP is now attempting, by deliberate misrepresentation of my words, to imply that I have agreed to the inclusion of this material - and worse, has used the talk page to assert that a suspect for the murder is guilty [62] (there as has yet been no trial), and that the connections between this individual and Dayalbagh make inclusion of this alleged murder in a section they had labelled 'controversy' legitimate. Given this IP's complete refusal to comply with elementary WP:BLP policy, a complete failure to actually address the numerous problems with the proposed content, and general tendentious and argumentative behaviour, combined with what is self-evidently a non-neutral approach to a difficult subject, I have to suggest that a block is necessary - if only so to ensure the IP actually actually reads the policy s/he claims to be complying with, and understands that using Wikipedia talk pages as a place to make assertions about an unconvicted individual being guilty of murder (along with multiple unsubstantiated allegations concerning other named individuals) will not be tolerated. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

If someone connected with the institution has been arrested for something, that could be stated, but it shouldn't go any farther than that at this point. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not posting here for advice about content - I am reporting a contributor who has repeatedly violated policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
There's no question he's coatracking the article to make it about this alleged murder. But a total whitewash doesn't seem appropriate either. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:53, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I am not going to engage in a discussion about article content here - the issue at hand is a contributor who has grossly violated Wikipedia policy on living persons. If you want to comment on the article, you know where the talk page is - though I suggest you actually read up on the matter first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Was this resolved at the BLP noticeboard, or is it still an open issue there? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
AS far as I am aware, there have been no recent discussions on the BLP noticeboard - and in any case, this requires admin action, and should be dealt with here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:06, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
It sounds like a content dispute. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Given that comment, I have a half a mind to call for you to be blocked too - for trolling and/or gross stupidity. The IP has repeatedly violated WP:BLP policy by asserting on the article talk page that an unconvicted individual had carried out a murder. There is no 'content dispute' involved there. It is a gross violation of Wikipedia policy, as anyone with an ounce of sense can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Given your recent arguments about alleged BLP violations in lists which weren't actually BLP violations, it raises the question of whether you can properly judge a BLP violation. Hence, your own behavior is under scrutiny as well. Now, it looks like there is coatracking in that IP's post. But that doesn't mean that everything in the post is factually incorrect. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:19, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Are you seriously trying to suggest that an assertion that an unconvicted named living individual is guilty of murder is not in fact WP:BLP violation? If so, I am going to propose that you be blocked indefinitely on WP:COMPETENCE grounds. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Andy, calm down, they are pushing your buttons....
If you want the IP blocked, I suggest:
  1. restore the part that is actually sourced to RS, citing the sources
  2. ask again that the IP is blocked
  3. watch how Baseball Bugs has to shut up because you removed his only argument
--Enric Naval (talk) 11:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry? You are asking me to engage in some sort of bargaining before a contributor is blocked for asserting on the article talk page that an unconvicted individual had carried out a murder? No way. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The alleged murder really has nothing to do with the institute itself, thus it does not belong anywhere in that article. A woman was killed in a research facility at Yale a few years ago, but Yale University itself has no mention of the incident. If someone feels strongly that the incident is notable, then the Murder of Neha Sharma (with competent, WP:BLP mindful people having an eye on it) would be the route to follow. One curious thing I note is that an actual source for the incident, the Times of India, reports on the story in much the same sensationalist manner as the IP carries on. I was rather surprised to see such detail divulged from a police official, and such sweeping language about the suspects. Is this a cultural divide, perhaps? Tarc (talk) 12:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Yup - though it should be noted that the IP was adding this to the article on Dayalbagh, not the one on the Dayalbagh Educational Institute. I made exactly the same point about creating a (properly-sourced) article on the murder itself, if it could be shown to be noteworthy. The IP didn't however respond to this - I'll refrain from suggesting why. As for the Indian press, it does seem rather more prone to repeating allegations as fact than most other English-language sources - though that is no reason for us to do the same. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Enric Naval, given that there have been no convictions, I'm concerned about the controversy section that was added[63] telling readers that named individuals were arrested, using a scan[64] to back Media reports claim that Dayalbagh's administration tried to destroy evidence on the crime scene and had plans to dump Neha's body in the bushes of Lalgarhi to hide the murder.[11]" which also looks like a BLP violation and uses a source we can't verify - does anyone here know what the source is for the scan and can verify it and quote what it says in English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 12:21, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Wow, OK, now I get why you were complaining so much. It's undue weight in the organization's article and in the institute's article. And the "scan" source is specially atrocious. That looks like a home-made leaflet, not an actual newspaper. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
If you think that scanned 'source' was bad, what about this one [65] A completely unidentifiable and unverifiable scanned copy of something-or-other, being cited for an assertion that "Dayalbagh's guru" was directly involved in a cover-up. The IP (who insists that s/he is familiar with Wikipedia policies) of course insists that "the sources are reliable"... AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I've dipped into the text the IP has been trying to edit war into the article here. The sentence "the doctors who did her post-mortem did not examine her body for sexual assault" is sourced to [66], which says no such thing. The next sentence, "Media reports suggest that they were pressurized to not do this", isn't sourced at all. It really won't do. Not sourcing a sentence about "media reports" is just weird, and when the "this" it refers back to — doctors failing to examine a body — is itself unsupported, it becomes more weird. This single example shows tendentious editing at its worst. There's more: WP:COATRACK, repeatedly stating on the talkpage that a named individual has committed murder when there has been no trial, and the IP's timewasting on the talkpage is pretty disruptive too (making a big deal of the use of the term "colony" is pure deflection). I've blocked for 48 hours for BLP violations and disruption. I'd say that's conservative. If anybody thinks it's too conservative (I don't do much BLP blocking), please feel free to extend the block. Bishonen | talk 12:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC).
  • P.S. As for the account that added the same material in 2013, I daresay Andy is right that it's the same person. But it doesn't really matter. The account stopped editing on 15 July 2013 and is not blocked or banned; the IP started more than a year later. Not a problem. Bishonen | talk 15:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC).
That's a question for the talkpage, not for ANI. Bishonen | talk 00:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC).
I object to Grumpy taking the meataxe approach, as he did with the recent issue of lists. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Bosnian articles - help needed[edit]

Yahadzija (talk Â· contribs) has had some problems at hr-WP and moved here instead. They have since been creating articles about places in Bosnia etc and they are mostly gibberish, possibly machine-translated stuff reliant on circular references and non-English sources. I don't think there is much doubt that Yahadzija means well, although there may be a bit of a WP:RGW situation when it comes to places where alleged atrocities occurred. Some of us have been trying to rein in the excesses and some of the articles have been turned into at least reasonably literate versions (eg: I helped with Večići) but I think we're hitting a real competence issue here and the patience of people such as @Bgwhite: has been sorely tested. There are also real concerns regarding whether or not the third-party sources are being correctly used: I have in the past tried to find some competent speakers of languages in the region in the hope of improving communications and sorting out the poor phrasing etc in articles but I've drawn a blank there.

Can anyone help with a way forward here? Are there in fact some active contributors who speak the language(s) being used in the sources? Can anyone determine why it was that they ran into trouble at hr-WP and, more importantly, whether that might have any bearing on what they are doing here? - Sitush (talk) 14:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Surtsicna speaks Bosnian. So, they could help with the sources. I asked Surtsicna to talk to Yahadzija, assuming Yahadzija knew Bosnian. Yahadzija doesn't. Yahadzija is blocked on the Croatian Wikipedia and blocked on the Bosnian Wikipedia. Thru a very rough Google translation on his Bosnian talk page, it appears he was blocked for personal attacks. Yahadzija also copied references, didn't use references that backed up what was being sourced and couldn't spell. Again thru Google translation, on the Croatian Wikipedia, Yahadzija was blocked for personal attacks. He also had problems with references and troubles writing Croatian. So long story short, Yahadzija doesn't know English, Bosnian or Croatian. He has troubles with referencing on all three Wikipedias. Bgwhite (talk) 21:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh, dear. I find this to be a very sad situation but I'm struggling to see a way out of it. Sitush (talk) 00:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this is Yahadzija's response. I'm not entirely sure as the response doesn't make sense. Yahadzija does start a new talk discussion when replying to another message. Bgwhite (talk) 05:35, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
He has replied to Surtsicna. 80.132.112.49 (talk) 14:52, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

[Illegitimate blanking] and [Vandalism] by User:Director[edit]

WITHDRAWN:

Both participating editors have indicated they wish to abandon this and request a third opinion at WP:3O. --Stfg (talk) 09:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Director has removed large portions of text in the article Istrian Exodus, albeit the edits removed were supported by 3 different verifiable secondary sources (check via the diff below to get convinced). Director briefly mentioned that the edits in question would be forever rolled back. So I did not even try to revert Director's edit because previous experience has shown this would end in an edit war or at best in a lengthy discussion going nowhere.

Now, the issue is that I genuinely believe the edits in question are correctly sourced and indeed the only user disagreeing is Director. His bold blanking without any attempt to discuss is a sign of lack of respect to those who try to improve the articles on this project after a long work of research.

This is the article after all Director's modifications: [67]]. It looks Director is actively modifying the article, so he might continue removing more text. I would have no problem in seeing my edits removed if other sources where presented, but Director just removed what he does not like.

However, this was the article before Director's modifications: [[68]]

I have limited faith this ANI will be of any help. Director has been in similar situations many times and always managed to get trough unarmed. But one thing is clear: if this time he will again let free to edit at his likes I will not male the mistake to lower myself to his methods. If this is the way Wikipedia works I can only acknowledge it. Silvio1973 (talk) 20:08, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


I'd like to thank Silvio1973 for having the courtesy to report himself. In spite of having been warned numerous, numerous times not to misrepresent sources, both these specific ones and in general, the user not only persists in doing so - but is entirely unapologetic about his conduct and even considers opposition to be "vandalism".
Throughout Archive 3 of Talk:Istrian exodus you will find instances of Silvio1973 getting caught in dishonest referencing. He was specifically caught misquoting these same sources for this same claim - about a dozen times, and was warned not to do that (e.g. here). Just go to Archive 3 and ctrl-F 'Djilas' or 'Dilas'.
Yet here he is, reporting me for reverting his addition of the same nonsense yet again. As I explain (yet again) in the thread I posted, the quoted source refers to the statement in question as "the claim, later seconded by Milovan Dilas, used by Stalin to justify the expulsion of the Yugoslav Communist Party from the Cominform". This is used by Silvio1973 as supposed support for stating the said "claim" as a fact.
Further, the user posts primary sources (without attribution in interpreted form) as references for statements of fact. I.e. a disgraced Yugoslav official (convicted by the government) claims in an interview that he was sent to expel Italians, and this statement is used as support for "Yugoslav officials worked to expel Italians"... Nonsense like that. In vain do I point to WP:PRIMARY.
There is another source by Italian author Gaetano Rando, but #1 it can't be verified atm and there is simply a strong statistical likelihood of it too having been misquoted by Silvio; #2 Provided its not misquoted, its an Italian author representing the Italian point of view in this national dispute: it ought to be carefully handled with regard to WP:WEIGHT and WP:THIRDPARTY. Silvio1973 is not the kind of user that one can work with in this manner.
Personally I am just perplexed at Silvio1973's entire attitude in issues like this. As I said - not only is he unapologetic, he's the one who gets offended when his dishonest sourcing is pointed out. This just keeps on happening.. The user will wait a few months and just post the same stuff again. -- Director (talk) 20:37, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
The edits are perfectly sourced. You removed them without discussing, as you usually do with other users. Now you start a lengthy discussion (as you usually do when you do not like an edits) to make things hazy. If this ANI is closed without any decision I will request a 3O or open a RfC. I do not comment on your behavior. This time I will have an egregious conduct. Silvio1973 (talk) 20:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
No, they are manifestly not. No, I did not. As you yourself say, I opened a thread on the talkpage laying out once more the dishonest referencing. You're the one who, without discussion, again introduced stuff you knew was opposed. You can request whatever you like, you're not about to cite primary sources as if they're secondary, or misquote sources by referring to a "claim" as a fact. Impo you ought to be swiftly boomeranged for disruptive conduct. This is clear WP:TE with the agenda to present the Yugoslav government as responsible for the events in question. -- Director (talk) 20:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. Can someone just have a look at this report or close it? The ANI report is silly but we do need 3O, Silvio1973 requested one but it was rejected on grounds of this ANI report taking place. If no sanctions are to be imposed, pls close the report and join in. One sane voice is all this needs, imo. -- Director (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. Yes we need more voices. Dear Director, next time do not rollback sourced material without joining the talk page and you will see that no-one will ever think to file an ANI. Simply you cannot remove sourced material without discussing. This is close to vandalism. --Silvio1973 (talk) 08:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


User:SSSRVsegda trolling Zolitūde shopping centre roof collapse[edit]

Editor blocked by Acroterion Amortias (T)(C) 21:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

They seem to have created the account for sole purpose of adding misinformation to the articles related to said event. There were some conspiracy theories going around right after the event, but nothing like this and seems that user is deliberately throwing around over the top nationalist insults and readily inventing new arguments based on what they are told. I did point out Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources once it became clear reasoning won't work, but this only resulted in links vaguely related to event being added and accusations of hiding "the truth" ~~Xil (talk) 21:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for nationalist trolling and conspiracy peddling. Acroterion (talk) 02:25, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Roger Ailes[edit]

Someone who may be close to the subject has more than once blanked the criticism section of this page. The blanking was reverting with little discussion by User:NQ and User:JayJay. I don't particularly want to name (nor shame) the person who made the removals, so I ask that people here stay sensitive to such things (especially in case the person is a minor).

Regardless, I opened a thread at BLPN here which was entirely ignored. I am asking the community and those familiar with BLP please take a look at the criticism section to make sure it conforms to our standards and to the standards of being fair to the subject. (FYI, I do not take a position on this; I am only a person who stumbled upon the issue). Magog the Ogre (t • c) 22:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I just did. Jytdog (talk) 02:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Criticism sections generally become troll magnets over time by encouraging the addition of every single negative item that can be cited, giving undue weight. It is much better to integrate negative and positive material in a more organic way. Since the criticism section in question (surprisingly) contains only one criticism, perhaps this can be integrated more holistically into his bio? DocumentError (talk) 02:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this revert [69] is improper, as it removes reliably sourced information, but the citation added is a good thing. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:25, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that! What DocumentError said. I suspected that the section had some legitimate points but that it might have coatrack issues. But I admit I could be wrong either way (I'm not as experienced with article content as most on this board). Magog the Ogre (t • c) 15:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Materialization (paranormal)[edit]

There is clear violation of WP:OR policy in the article. Some editors are not after proper sourcing/citing, but just act obstinate. I have filed the case in WP:NORN here. People (administrators and experienced editors) having a good command of WP:OR are needed to resolve this issue once & for all. Logos (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

While I don't think this is the right place to raise content disputes and as a filing at NORNB was made, the above seems improper duplication, perhaps this is the place to point out some problems with editor behavior. The OP is at 3R on the article (three identical removals of the same material in under 5 hours):
  1. 05:38, 30 August 2014 'Scientific views: remove unrelated source; we don't need velasquez's unrelated synthy weasel analysis, he should refer to the scientists explicitly"
  2. 06:17, 30 August 2014 "Undid revision 623427449 by MrBill3 (talk)per talk; don't add it that synthy source again"
  3. 09:33, 30 August 2014 "Undid revision 623440450 by Dbrodbeck (talk)the source is irrelevant; be careful about your language'"
Is asserting the right to remove the material once again based solely on thier judgement:
"Your participation in Talk:Materialization_(paranormal) is pending. In case you can't present any solid argumentation, that irrelevant source will be removed again"
Is adding material to the disputed paragraph without discussion or support on talk:
  • 01:15, 31 August 2014 "Scientific views: added what should have been added until now; will remove velasquez's book if objecting users do not raise any valid reasoning"
Is making assertions of misuse of warning templates, when 3RR notice was placed on their talk page when their edits had clearly reached 3R:
It would seem from this and other actions ("bunch of ignorant users" etc) that the OP 1) Has a limited understanding of policy 2) Has a limited ability to collaborate 3) Has a limited ability to conduct themselves in a civil manner and 4) Does not show an interest improving their participation. - - MrBill3 (talk) 06:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Funny you would talk about "ability to collaborate" when you and your friends would consistently remove a "dubious" tag from a source then complaining that the user marking it as such is "edit warring". You and your colleagues are clearly the ones making false assertions about physics and refusing any kind of proper discussion, simply avoiding the real topic. I am glad someone else pointed at your behavior. Anaphylaxis2014 (talk) 09:53, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm tired of correcting MrBill3's misinterpretations/misrepresentations: my 1st edit to remove that irrelevant source does not count as revert. Logos (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
On what basis would you assert that the first time you removed a source is not reverting another editor's contribution? - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
"Is adding material to the disputed paragraph without discussion or support on talk": Had you checked the material ("All known interactions do conserve matter thus could not generate, from pure energy, a number of matter particles different from that of number of antimatter particles") I added, you would see that it was taken from the citation you had added into the article. I leave other false accusations by MrBill3 to other people to weigh out. Logos (talk) 11:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

After a couple of reverts by Logos at the page in question I reverted it back to the version before he/she began edit warring [70]. I asked Logos to 'move on' in my edit summary, I was told to 'watch my language' [71]. No offense was meant, indeed, I apologized for the use of 'move on' [72]. When I said, on the talk page, that I had agreed with 'pretty much everything that MrBill3 had said' I was told that this was 'not a (sic) participation' [73]. I eventually reverted the page back to where it was before Logos started edit warring [74]. and left Logos a 3RR warning [75], which, seemed appropriate as, well, as Logos was at 3RR. This was deleted, as, of course is Logos' right, with an edit summary stating that I should 'go read some policy' (though I guess not the 3RR one, unless I woefully misunderstand it). Incidentally, when MrBill3 left a 3RR warning he too was given the same response. [76]. I have attempted to remain civil, as I hope can be seen here: [77], but my WP:AGF is waning here. We have an editor who was recently blocked for edit warring [78] and another editor (Logos) who seem to have a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. If I have done something inappropriate I will, of course, own up to it, but, I don't think I, or MrBill3 for that matter, is causing the issue at this page. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:21, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The only option is really to apply Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions on all disputing parties.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
You want DS on everyone? That seems quite extreme. Dbrodbeck, if you think sanctions on a specific editor are required, I'd recommend WP:AE. It's a bit more systematic in it's approach. Meanwhile, if someone edit protected the article, that would encourage discussion. Second Quantization (talk) 21:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I did not suggest sanctions against anyone. I think you are mistaken. (Or, I have misread or misinterpreted what you wrote SQ). Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I said that but "disputing parties" I think consists of the loudest mouths in this whole debacle.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • A look at User:MrBill3's diffs above suggests an alert about the pseudoscience discretionary sanctions may be useful to Logos, and I have accordingly placed one. Also Logos's templated warnings about template abuse here and here (using templates, no less) are textbook examples of template abuse (from Logos). Bishonen | talk 19:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC).
  • Bishonen, you know that your judgement is false; I would suggest you to internalize Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions#Role_of_administrators. Especially, the clauses 3 and 5; if not properly handled, twisted judgements can lead to desysopping. I will comment on your claim about template abuse, once you inform MrBill3 on 3RR and on my 1st edit's being an edit, not a revert. If you would interpret that my 1st edit is also a revert, then you will notice my edit summary there and my comments in talk page, which together were warranted/justified by WP:3RRNO. I am not repeating all the relevant diffs here, for it's already been detailed at NORN. Feel free to join the discussion.. Logos (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Block evasion by Frimoussou[edit]

Mardochee1 (talk Â· contribs) seems to be an obvious sockpuppet of Frimoussou (talk Â· contribs), who was active during the period of the latter's block. Both have been engaged in edit wars in multiple LGBT-themed articles (like: Torquato Tasso, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Luigi Settembrini, etc.) and this edit actually gives it away. --85.118.226.35 (talk) 06:16, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

1 - this should be raised on WP:SPI where more and better resources exist to address this type of thing, 2 - it seems suspect and vindictive for you to raise this issue at all after Mardochee1 previously cautioned you on your Talk page for IP sockpuppetry, 3 - claiming another user has been involved in edit wars should be accompanied by a diff to the positive results of a 3RR complaint, otherwise you are unfairly forcing the accused to prove a negative, 4 - while there are broad similarities to Mardochee1 and Frimoussou's edit patterns, and the former even protested the latter's block, none of this is sufficient, IMO, to assert unambiguous connection; to avoid unfairly blocking an innocent editor for socking, this really requires a CheckUser, which can only occur on SPI DocumentError (talk) 07:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I believe you're getting me confused with a different anonymous editor (the one from Italy): I personally didn't get any warnings from Mardochee1. Almost all of his contribs seem to be intersecting with Frimoussou's, and his latest activity started on August 23, exactly the date when Frimoussou was blocked. Frimoussou also supported his point of view in a discussion, and the message style of the two is very similar. --85.118.226.35 (talk) 15:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
You're right; sorry, it's hard to keep track of strings of digits as opposed to userids. Anyway, I think you should bring this up at WP:SPI. DocumentError (talk) 17:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

User:Sarabveer[edit]

I need help in dealing with User:Sarabveer. He has copied a full article from some other Non-Wikimedia wiki and is pasting in article Akhand Kirtani Jatha. The pasted text is available at many other websites under copyright law. Initially I was not aware of that, but since text was POVy, unsourced, and full of weasel words. I tried to engage him on talk page of discussions. But he is barely listening, ignoring WP:BRD and is persistent with his version. To avoid copyright, he has changed few words, but it is still case of Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. The POV issue has also not be solved. I will appreciate, if someone could intervene and explain him the policies. Also if some admin could revert to the copyright free version and fully protect the article. I have reverted his edits couple of times, but he is edit warring. In the meantime, he first submitted his version as separate article at AfC (which was rejected and immediately deleted due to copyright). Then he made a new article Akhand Keertani Jatha, which is now redirect to original article. He also made a personal attack. I have tried to talk with him at Talk:Akhand Kirtani Jatha User_talk:Vigyani#AKJ User_talk:Sarabveer#Why --Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 06:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

In reference to the accusation of a personal attack, this seems more like a run-of-the-mill insane comment than a personal attack or WP:CIVIL issue. There is no policy against acting in a generally off-kilter manner. I withhold input on the other issues. DocumentError (talk) 07:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I did not copy a full article from another source, did you even read my article that I posted yesterday, completely different. And also, SikhiWiki is NOT copyrigted, so I don't kow what you are screaming about. I see no copyright issues with my article. Also, the old article asked for a "Expert in Religion." I am a Baptized Sikh who is currently in the AKJ. Vigyani says Im spreading propaganda, but I fixed that issue (well-known annoys him). Also, he has a problem with me put Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh. The "Bhai Sahib" was given by the 4 Tahkts at the time (there was no 5th one). Also, the old article has obvious errors, just as AKJ being AJK. Also, my article had many references that your fake websites under copyright don't have. My article is fine as is. Sarabveer (talk) 12:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
SikhWiki in under GNU Free Documentation License, so I see no copyright issues what-so-ever. Sarabveer (talk) 12:55, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Could you stop edit waring ? Few editors other then me have reverted your edits. About copyright issue, I read your version, thats why I am telling you that it suffers from Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Which it will always do as long as you start from that preachy version. That kind of text only suits highly POVy SikhWiki. --Vigyanitalkਯੋਗਦਾਨ 13:11, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
You cannot copy content covered by the GFDL only to wikipedia for a few years now. Content needs to be licenced under the CC-BY-SA or compatible licence at a minimum. There are also some general things you should do when copying from other sources. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Copyrights at least before contributing further. Nil Einne (talk) 16:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Tag Clubbing (disruptive behavior)[edit]

Shrike has been using discretionary sanctions warnings as a kind-of cudgel. In the last 40 days he has welcomed new contributors to Israel-Gaza dispute articles with the discretionary sanctions tag no less than eight (8!) times ([[79]], [[80]], [[81]], [[82]], [[83]], [[84]], [[85]], [[86]]), against Gire 3pich2005, Kingsindian, Johorean Boy, Zaid almasri, ZxxZxxZ, Maurice Flesier, and others. As a demonstration of how non-AGF the use of these tags is, in my own case he slapped a discretionary sanctions tag on my talk page, even though I'd never actually made a single edit to any Israel-related article! (The tag was applied after I offered a comment [[87]] in a Talk page discussion on 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict.)
Even though tags and templates carry no official force, the reality is they can be intimidating to new editors and stifle contributions. The fact that he has been slapping them on the pages of people who haven't even contributed to an article - but have simply made a comment in a Talk page that inclines him to believe their future contributions may not mirror his POV - evidences his underlying intent. Attempting to ID editors as future "adversaries" and then trying to stifle them by tagging their talk pages is absolutely antithetical to the spirit of collaboration and encyclopedia building. DocumentError (talk) 08:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't edit in this area of wikipedia, but in the area where I have an interest, there are Arbcom discretionary sanctions in force. Everybody who participates in those controversial and difficult areas should have been tagged with a notification. If you haven't been notified, it leaves a certain wiggle room if sanctions need enforcing against you, or anybody else. I've had two I think, and it wouldn't surprise me if Shrike, was in receipt of one as well. Don't sweat it. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 08:27, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree, however, Shrike has not been issuing the tags in blanket fashion, but as a targeted stick. I think the point is that the pattern of tagging that is occurring, by all appearances, is a preemptive attempt to deter contributions. In my case I have never contributed to these articles but was tagged after I left a Talk page comment disagreeing with a position of Shrike. Looking at the pattern of tagging Shrike has used, he has only tagged contributors with whom he has either been in conflict, or who have userboxes identifying them as ethnically Arab or Persian. This type of race-tagging is an unacceptable departure from normal standards of behavior which, itself, is an enumerated cause for discretionary sanctions. DocumentError (talk) 08:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Does Kingsindian and Maurice Flesier are Arabs or Persian?Yes they may have opposite POV but there is no policy to warn people of the opposed POV. --Shrike (talk) 08:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
There is no cause to request another editor identify their race or ethnic origin. Everyone's contributions are equally valid regardless of background. DocumentError (talk) 08:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Where did I said otherwise?My response was a rhetorical question to your assertions that I warn only based on ethnicity which of course is not true and btw I have no knowledge of your ethnicity and I don't care just another proof that you are wrong.--Shrike (talk) 08:59, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Do not engage in obfuscation through misattribution. As you know, what I said is "he has only tagged contributors with whom he has either been in conflict, or who have userboxes identifying them as ethnically Arab or Persian." That is a matter of objective fact, verifiable by any reviewing admin through a glance at your eight tags in the last 40 days. DocumentError (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
People were sanctioned for their comments in talk space in WP:AE for violation of WP:NPA for example So in my view the alert was in order but if admins think that its not so I will strike my edit..Also you are not a new editor.If there will be a policy not to alert a new editors I willy happily follow it.Maybe the policy should be changed here is a recent case of some new editors too unhappy with such tag[88]--Shrike (talk) 08:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Once again, the point is not alerting new editors, it is your highly selective "alerting" of new editors in a manner indicative of an intent to use the tag as a cudgel, which is not what it's intended for; the fact you've now indicated you'll continue race-tagging and only modify your behavior if there is a general policy change seems to underscore your intransigence on this point. DocumentError (talk) 08:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I never said that I will "continue race-tagging" and I never did you accusation is baseless and violation of WP:NPA.--Shrike (talk) 08:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I've not got a dog in this fight but that tag looks like it would be particularly intimidating to any new editors. It should not be seen as a "pre-emptive strike" to try to scare people away from editing or to push a particular POV. Looks like the tag is being misused here. Little Professor (talk) 19:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I believe these tags were re-written, after another editor (an arb IIRC) used them a lot. I'm sure they could benefit from further improvement, and maybe a better process for notification. For example:
This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.
Does not seem optimum to me:
This message is informational and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions.
Seems unambiguously better and maybe even This message is informational. would suffice.
IF the wording was such that it was purely informational partisan editors would be sending it to their allies, to reduce the chance of their getting sanctioned.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough00:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC).

User:Hatetokyobiatch79[edit]

Blocked by Acalamari Amortias (T)(C) 20:31, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi,

Can we blockUser:Hatetokyobiatch79 for [89] obvious abuse only account unfortunatley im not sure what page shes referring to otherwise id have thrown this to SPI, also reported to @emergency. Amortias (T)(C) 17:59, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator observation) Refer to User talk:Passioncity. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 18:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
That'd be it, was looking for a mainspace page not a user one. Amortias (T)(C) 18:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Yet another Evlekis sock[edit]

Hi

Can we revoke talk access on User:This Trapster abuse is identical to every other User:Evlekis sock. Amortias (T)(C) 19:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Talk page access revoked. Monty845 19:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I dont suppose we can revoke the whole wave of them and just leave Evlekis incase he fancies appealing his blocks. Amortias (T)(C) 19:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

OpenOffice[edit]

Resolved: Walter Görlitz blocked for a month. PhilKnight (talk) 14:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a (presumably good faith) dispute about the content of the disambiguation page OpenOffice. The dispute deals with the adding/removing of non-ambiguous titles to the page proper. One editors add them. Another editor moves them to the See also section. In particular, the inclusion/exclusion of Libre Office is at the nub of the dispute.

This incident relates to one editor, Walter Görlitz, who, in my view, is demonstrating disruptive editing and battleground mentality towards me specifically.

Background

Here's the edit history of adding/removing the non-ambiguous terms:

The page was marked for clean up by Widefox on 6 March 2014 due to the inclusion of non-ambiguous terms. I answered the call for clean up on 6 August 2014 and was reverted by ClareTheSharer (citing "POV changes" and "No Talk discussion and changes ignore consensus"). No particular problems or issues so far (although ClareTheSharer's comments were undeserved) because I presume the issue lies simply in a misunderstanding of what to list on disambiguation pages.

Walter Görlitz

The incident I am raising is with Walter Görlitz demonstrating disruptive and battleground-style behavior in the discussion that followed. His behavior seemingly carries a grudge over from other discussions (or he is unable to distinguish this discussion from another). In particular:

Particular comments included:

"Introducing delusional information that you and Tóraí lean toward is not an option though. As for the attempted insults that we show ownership, it doesn't fly. We simply support the references. Suck on that." (29 August 2014)

"Pretty much everything you've written is skewed to some degree and everyone who has commented here and at the OpenOffice.org has stated that." - 30 August 2014

Then there's this gem of disruptive editing editing, 31 August 2014, where he avoids repeated requests to explain his objections.

Another particularly noxious example is making out that I'm working against consensus (what consensus?) in moving the non-ambiguous terms to the See also section. And (falsely) pointing to the unrelated RM discussion as evidence for consensus on this matter (7 August 2014). Or reverting changes that move the non-ambigious terms citing an unrelated RfC on OpenOffice.org.

These issues may appear small but when grudges from unrelated issues are carried across articles or discussions it feels vindictive and is wearing.

Action requested: A warning or (short) block for battlefield mentality and disruptive editing.

--Tóraí (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Already blocked for edit warring by Mike_V. Amortias (T)(C) 21:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
At the same time, he needs to made understand his behavior towards me isn't on. He'll be back in 48hrs and his attitude in this dispute won't have changed unless he is told it's not acceptable. --Tóraí (talk) 21:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
This is being dealt with by the administrators involved on his talk page. Best to let them thrash it out and I'll notify the admins involved so there aware of this issue as well. Amortias (T)(C) 21:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
OK. If you ask one of them to look at this tread and decide what to, I'd appreciate that. May I suggest Bbb23 since he/she is currently in active discussion with Walter. I won't for want of keeping interaction with Bbb23 (or who ever) unbiased. --Tóraí (talk) 21:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Requests sent to the administrators involved in his block/unblock requests. Amortias (T)(C) 21:57, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Looking at Walter's block log I think escalating blocks should be used instead of continuing with short blocks. PhilKnight (talk) 22:11, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Agree absolutely and have said as much in my decline and other comments on Walter's talk page. To say he's not taking it well is an understatement.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: I've had a few interactions with Walter Görlitz in the past year. None of them have been pleasant, regardless of how he was approached. Since that time, I've seen a few articles on my watchlist that he also edits and have noted he is often quite abrasive (typically unnecessarily so). He does seem to approach editing with the battleground mentality mentioned above, and is prone to edit warring without apology. I have no vendetta or hard feelings against Walter, but he does seem to stomp on editors a lot. Since my interactions with him have ended up mostly negative, I just try to avoid having any contact unless absolutely necessary. But how long is one expected to do that without commenting on his persistent and unapologetic disruptive behavior? -- Winkelvi ● ✉ ✓ 22:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Based on his recent user talk page comments, I'm thinking of increasing his block to a month. Would anybody object? PhilKnight (talk) 23:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. User appears to have been reverting what he thought was vandalism and was subsequently blocked. Whether it was vandalism or not is a dispute for another page. However, as I myself have been blocked multiple times for reverting both vandals and sock puppets, I can sympathize with his current block. The OpenOffice issue appears to be more of a content dispute. Combining this current current content dispute with his unrelated block appears to be an attempt to stack the deck against the user. I would need to see more evidence that a block is necessary. On the other hand, the user should be on 1RR at the minimum. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Support but I'd like to hear from Mike V, the blocking administrator.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I have no objections to an extended block. I feel this is a reoccurring problem that Walter does not see or does not wish to address. After reviewing the progression of the talk page, I agree with PhilKnight and BBb23 that this issue won't resolve when the block expires. Mike V • Talk 01:09, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I've extended the block to a month. In regard to the comment by Viriditas about 1RR - if Walter Görlitz could be persuaded to follow 1RR I think that would go a long way to resolving this, however for the moment, I have just extended the block. PhilKnight (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree, when the block begins to come to a close I would like to propose a 1RR agreement with him. Mike V • Talk 02:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Zoe Quinn again[edit]

This is mostly asking for review of my actions, rather than asking for sanctions, etc. On Talk:Zoe Quinn I've just twice reverted a proposal for a new section in the article that discusses Quinn's ongoing harassment. I've reverted because some of the sources (Reddit, Talking Ship) look dubious, and the allegations made against Quinn in the post are serious. The post has been restored by Titanium Dragon and Tutelary, however. Do others think this was a reasonable move on my part, or is this more me being a BLP zealot? Opinions from uninvolved editors are welcome. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 00:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

My view on this is that it qualifies under the exception of WP:BLPTALK since it was a proposed section, and directly dealing with content in the article. They were proposing for text to be put into the article. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate. Moreso, how can we reach consensus on how to cover the material if every single discussion about it has been revdeleted? Tutelary (talk) 00:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Discuss without BLP violations? Sergecross73 msg me 00:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
As somebody who has recently gotten involved with making edits on the article, I feel like there should be discussion and a consensus regarding the addition of a section talking about the scandal per what Tutelary states above, including references to wherever the supposed violations of WP:BLPGOSSIP Moreover, I feel like it should be brought up that Zoe Quinn has had 36 deleted revisions since it's creation in May, and the majority of that seems to stem from issues with WP:BLP. A third opinion is desperately needed on this matter. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 00:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. You can't simply post BLP violations on a talk page though, it applies in all namespaces. Some of those sources are distinctly shaky (or are merely repeating from unreliable sources - putting "allegedly" on the front of a sentence doesn't miraculously make it not a BLP issue). I am also slightly concerned that the "scandal" is being inserted in the article gratuitously; here on Wikipedia would not be the first location on the Internet that efforts have been made to disparage the subject recently. Now, I could be wrong (its happened before), but I agree with Mr.Stradivarius that erring on the side of caution is always the best method. Black Kite (talk) 00:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
But it's not erring on the side of caution. It's removing a whole post to start discussion on the talk page on how to best cover it, if cover it at all in the article. You can't be asked or forced to supply a citation for every single little thing that you're arguing while you're arguing with sources. Again, see BLPTALK, it was directly related to making content choices. Tutelary (talk) 00:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
And BLPTALK says "When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot" - in other words, if you think something might not be BLP compliant, don't post the whole damn thing on the talk page. Black Kite (talk) 01:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Since (I believe you're the one) who revdeleted it, how would you propose we discuss it then if we can't discuss it on the talk? Tutelary (talk) 01:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It shouldn't be beyond clearly intelligent contributors to discuss the scope of a section without actually repeating BLP violations - and it should be fairly obvious what is and isn't one (I'm not saying the whole section was). Black Kite (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Again, I want specifics on how we can discuss this--the potential content in the article on the talk page without it being deleted as a 'blp vio'. Please and thank you. Tutelary (talk) 01:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) That particular sentence from BLPTALK has been discussed somewhere else recently. It's an unfortunate and misguided statement. More important, it's in direct conflict with the overarching mandate that BLP applies to all pages. If it were true, you could say almost whatever you wanted on a talk page as long as it was in the context of a "content choice". That is an absurd and unacceptable result.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It's so that when discussing somewhat new content, it doesn't get all deleted as a 'blp vio' when it's important to get something right in the article, which is what was attempting to happen; get it right in the article. I wouldn't even say I support a new section detailing what happened, I just feel like it should be allowed to be discussed on the talk. Tutelary (talk) 01:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
In this particular case, some of the text posted in the article and talk page contained serious BLP violations. It may have appeared well sourced, but it was presenting some highly negative claims as facts, in spite of questionable origins, along with some incorrect claims that are not supported by the sources. Perhaps some of the issues need to be discussed, but that text wasn't the way to do it. - Bilby (talk) 01:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Black Kite, no mention is being made at all as to what information is or is not the violation. There's no means to collaborate and iron out. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 01:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It should be fairly obvious which part is problematic, though. As Bilby says above, presenting negative claims by third parties as facts is not something we can allow. Black Kite (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The statement of "We need a third opinion on all the revdels" is faulty because they're already coming from multiple parties. There's already multiple opinions present stating that these are flagrant BLP violations. Sergecross73 msg me 01:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The only things which are claimed as facts in the section in question are the things which we have significant external confirmation of. The word "accused" is used re: her ex's accusations, while things which are stated as facts are things which are independently verifiable and not in contention. Indeed, we have confirmation of a romantic relationship between Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson because Kotaku commented on it starting after the article he wrote about Zoe Quinn in defense of Grayson and their reporting. We have several sources which have noted the claims re: Joshua Boggs, and the fact that he hired her is not in contention. Literally everything else after the first paragraph has been independently confirmed as it is on the open internet and has been reported by a huge number of sources, and there is absolutely no way that we can report on the controversy - which has, at this point, over 72,000 results on Google for Zoe Quinn sex scandal alone, and which has been reported on or commented on in numerous sources, including Slate, Kotaku, Bright Side of News, New Media Rockstars, Daily Beast, Gamesnosh, Motherboard, Gamer Headlines, Talking Ship, Game Revolution, and Daily Dot. That's ignoring the various other folks who have commented on it, including TotalBiscuit and InternetAristocrat, the latter of whom now has several videos on the subject matter, one of which has north of 750,000 views. The entire reason that Zoe Quinn has gotten coverage is precisely because of the controversies she has been embroiled in, and her notability is pretty much entirely contingent upon these controversies - and notably, per the standards people are claiming above, if we are complaining about single sources here, it is worth remembering that Zoe Quinn's claims of harassment ultimately come from her.
Thus, I see one of two possibilities: either this article needs to be deleted, or this article needs to include the controversy. And it is impossible to include the controversy without noting what the controversy is and what caused it. Given that people have said that this article should be preserved, then it needs to include the controversy, and to do that it must mention what the controversy is about - accusations of nepotism and improper relationships because of romantic relationships she had with people who gave her positive press coverage or hired her to work for them. There is no getting around this. Wikipedia has reported on sex scandals and affairs upon many occasions in BLPs, including Ted Haggard and in the various articles about Princess Diana and Prince Charles, and I really don't see how this is special or different. We have reliable sources which have made these allegations, the fact that they are (largely, but not entirely, as there is some independent confirmation in some cases) based on the account of an unhappy ex should definitely be noted, but it does not prevent us from making note of it - if a politician's wife left him and claimed he had been cheating on her with five women, we would report on that not because of the wife, but because of the reliable sources who would repeat the wife's story and make it into a story. We have reported on all sorts of cases where we do not know all of the specifics, such as about the shooting of Michael Brown, but that does not prevent us from noting what was said about the shooting or what was claimed about the shooting in numerous reliable sources.
The proposed section is not out of line with the sort of accusations which are seen elsewhere, and it needs to be worded carefully, but I think I succeeded at that, and if not, we can work to make it better. And mentioning the cause of the scandal is absolutely necessary to talk about the rest of it - the accusations of nepotism and corruption, the censorship of posts, a voluntary media blackout on the part of many gaming sites, Kotaku's own response to the matter wherein they confirmed that Zoe Quinn was in fact in a romantic relationship with one of their reporters and denied that it was improper because the article he wrote for Kotaku about Zoe Quinn was penned before the relationship began, fights over media corruption, the other game jam she supposedly attacked... and all of this, all of this, is a matter of public record, because it is still available to be seen or has been documented by various folks, and the reliable sources have documented the issues involved. This clearly does not fall under WP:GOSSIP because we can confirm all of this actually happened. The specifics of the affairs we have reliable sources talking about allegations and accusations, though in one case (Grayson) it has been outright confirmed by his employer, so we should word those things as being accusations and allegations - and they aren't just a whisper campaign either seeing as they do, in fact, have actual evidence of the content in question, and in some cases actually link to it in the articles.
I do understand the issues involved with slander and libel but the reality is that this stuff has been reported on by reliable sources per Wikipedia standards, there have been a number of reliable sources which have written articles about the subject matter, it has a bunch of non-reliable source attention, and it is something which, assuming Zoe Quinn is notable, is what makes her notable, given that the material associated with Zoe Quinn pretty much always mentions the controversies she has been embroiled in. If we are worried about NPOV, that's fine, and we can work on the wording. But BLP clearly allows reporting on sex scandals, provided that they are reliably sourced, because we have done this several times before and have numerous BLPs with sex scandals mentioned in them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 02:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Literally everything else after the first paragraph has been independently confirmed as it is on the open internet - and therefore it must be true - and has been reported by a huge number of sources - and how many of them are reliable sources? Being 'on the open Internet' does not mean it is suitable for Wikipedia. Verifiability, not truth through reliable, third-party, fact-checked sources. - The Bushranger One ping only 04:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Every one of them - including the ones in the first paragraph - are reliably sourced. Which you would know if they didn't keep deleting it. Every single one of them. Note that list of reliable sources? "Slate, Kotaku, Bright Side of News, New Media Rockstars, Daily Beast, Gamesnosh, Motherboard, Gamer Headlines, Talking Ship, Game Revolution, and Daily Dot". Those are all used as sources. All of them have reported on the scandal. Every inch of it can be reliably sourced. Everything from the second paragraph on down - the reaction to it, the further allegations of another game jam being attacked, the censoring of posts on reddit, the YouTube video pulldown, the media blackout from several gaming websites, GamesNosh's host arguing with them about keeping up an article about it, and Zoe Quinn's response - all are documented in reliable sources. Every statement made can be sourced in reliable sources. Ergo, the whole argument seems silly to me - we're arguing BLP, but there's no question that this has been reported on, and we have covered other sex scandals in BLPs, and a great deal of it isn't even about the sex scandal itself, but accusations of nepotism and corruption which resulted from her "private" relationships with people who had given her a job and given her positive press became public. Given that these sources all pass RS, I again have to question what the problem is. People are complaining but refusing to even state what they're complaining about. When the text is put up to try and mold into an article for consensus, it is unilaterally deleted rather than amended, and then they complain when the article is changed without consensus despite deleting any attempts to create consensus in the talk page. It is obstructing our ability to improve the article and it is unacceptable, and is clearly a misinterprestation of WP:BLP as was noted above. The sources in question have editorial staff, they aren't personal blogs; Slate and Kotaku are both fairly prominent websites, and the rest all still meet RS standards.
You're not assuming good faith. Please do so in the future; I know what I'm doing. It is just a bit frustrating when every attempt to improve the article is blocked and discussion on the matter prevented. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)\
Please explain what in the wide, wide world of sports any of that has to do with Zoe Quinn. And ensure that all of those alleged connections are sourced to something more than "some guy said this on 4chan" or "I read it on a YouTube comment page." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The Slate article you cite calls the accusations "a dirty-laundry double load of drama-laden chats." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of them as suitable for repetition in an encyclopedic format. I believe the current wording is adequate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Slate is a biased source; it is not unreasonable to use biased sources, and biased sources can be reliable sources. sources need not be unbiased. But you have to take care in what you use them for; in this case, they're being used for a specific purpose where their bias is irrelevant, namely A) noting the press/feminist reaction to the scandal and B) noting that the scandal exists in the first place and the fundamental, basic facts of it (or at least some of them), which are also repeated in other, less biased reliable sources. You can write an article using biased sources, you just need to take care that you don't allow THEIR bias to creep into Wikipedia. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
No, Slate isn't "a biased source", which is exactly the point. Slate is a generally-accepted high-quality source, and that source states that the accusations are little more than tabloid trash. We don't republish tabloid trash in the encyclopedia. Hence, if the reliable sources in this matter are calling it tabloid trash, we are well-advised to leave it out. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
There are concerns of neutrality in the coverage of the incident that were raised in the talk page, and these deletions does not address the problem. It's true that BLP applies to talk pages, but Tutelary is right that BLP explicitly allows discussing controversial content there in a general way when it's sourced, letting us to include such claims once; a shotgun approach of "delete everything " even from article history is not the way to protect the neutrality of the article nor the privacy of the person - the reliable sources covering the event in depth are too numerous and varied to simply hide the whole thing just because some aspects of it are gossip and should be left out. Several RSs (including those supportive of Quinn, even the Slate article you found reliable) have linked the episode to ongoing discussion in news sources about the problems of video gaming press as a young medium, in particular with respect to the previous Doritos-gate incident; leaving that side of the story completely out is a problem with WP:BALANCE, as that point of view should be covered in proportion to its due weight as covered by the references. Diego (talk) 09:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Except that at that point, you're basically using this article as a coatrack to discuss alleged problems in gaming journalism. Which isn't going to fly. Zoe Quinn's article is not the place to have a substantive discussion of various claims about video game journalism ethics. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That is not something that you should decide, that judgement should be made by reliable sources like the Slate article. So far, the professional journalists covering the event have decided that the topic is connected to that discussion, and the article should mimic that coverage in the adequate proportion, without editors deciding that one of the points of view expressed and extensively talked by those journalists should be excised. Diego (talk) 09:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Sure, it's something we decide. We can decide that something is so thinly and tangentially connected to another thing that significant discussion of it really belongs elsewhere. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
When the Slate writes something like "We need to stop focusing on her and focus on the journalists. ... We need to not make this about Zoe... I read many comments like this, and they are absolutely right", it's clear that talking about journalism is not making the article a coatrack. At this point, what you're advocating is that we censor information from the article that you found reliable ten minutes ago just because you disagree with it. Diego (talk) 10:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
No, the Slate piece is literally making the argument I'm making - that the issue relates to games journalism, not to Zoe Quinn's life.
More to the point, Wikipedia is not a compendium of everything ever written anywhere and editorial judgment is not censorship. We make decisions about what to include and what not to include all the time. Crying "censorship" is the weakest of all possible arguments for a piece of information, because it means you can't come up with any more compelling reason to include it. We are editors and yes, that means we make judgments about content inclusion and exclusion. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 10:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I made that argument because I had already made the strongest possible argument -that the journalism connection is covered by multiple sources from a variety of points of view- and you ignored it. Editorial judgement is made by consensus from several editors through calm discussion, not by editors single-handedly deciding that linking to sources in order to evaluate them is a policy violation and blowing up large parts of the discussion, which is discouraged both by talk page guidelines and BLP policy (which recommends substituting them with a link to previous discussion, not revdeleting the whole thing). I think this conversation is a good candidate for mediation, given that the way this discussion is being held is way beyond the desirable properties of talking about content and the reliability of each particular reference for each particular claim. Diego (talk) 11:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
P.S. Moreover, if some content is excluded for editorial discretion, it wouldn't justify rev-deleting it as it wouldn't be a BLP violation but merely editors agreeing that it's not relevant to the topic. Diego (talk) 12:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

It relates to Zoe Quinn because Zoe Quinn is involved in this particular instance of dubious behavior by the press and industry; the fact that it blew up so much is because of her personal hypocrisy, long-standing objections to nepotism and corruption in the gaming press, and issues of biased reporting on gender equality issues in gaming - but that's irrelevant, because it DID blow up and she was involved and her name is all over it. Zoe Quinn is only notable for this and another incident of claimed harassment and counter-claims of nepotism. If you feel that Zoe Quinn is not notable, that's fine, but these incidents are all that is notable about her, and given that attempts at deleting the article have failed, it appears that there is consensus that the various scandals she has been involved in are sufficient for notability. It is not being used as a coatrack in the article, as the whole proposed section directly involves her and her associates and the aftermath of this particular incident. The goal is to document the scandal, not to use it as a prop for going after the video game industry. We cover scandals on Wikipedia all the time without significant issue; this should be no different. Titanium Dragon (talk) 10:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

@Titanium Dragon:, I suggest that you tone down your posts and in particular that you withhold your personal opinions against Quinn - it's not helping in any way to discuss the thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion, and it's giving reasons to the people who are using extreme editing techniques to prevent reasoned debate. The best thing you can do is limit your posts to neutral claims that have appeared in the sources you want to use, avoiding any kind of judgement of Quinn or the Wikipedia editors, so that we can evaluate each claim on its own merits. I suggest that all editors do the same around here. Diego (talk) 11:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
@Diego:, I apologize. I'm just a bit frustrated because I'm trying to improve the article and discussion keeps getting shut down and people assume I am out to get them. What bothers me the most about this is that a great deal of the reason that people have gotten so upset about this is because of perceptions of censorship. I felt that the proposed section was fairly neutrally worded and would have been more than happy for people to find things that they felt were bad or wrong and remove or fix them, but instead the whole thing keeps getting deleted, preventing people from even giving much feedback on it - I had a discussion with a couple people about it earlier and it was fairly productive, and then some folks rolled in and deleted it and deleted even the revisions and the discussion to prevent anyone from seeing it and working on it, while refusing to say what their specific issue was so that it could be hashed out and improved or fixed or even removed if a given sentence could not be adequately sourced. And this is precisely the sort of thing which has gotten people incensed - I was told by a friend who hangs out on 4chan that someone there even made a post earlier today calling out censorship on the Wikipedia article, and goodness knows we don't need to get a bunch of POV Warriors from /v/ involved. I want to write something which documents this, not some sort of hit job, and I'd love to work with people on it, but it is very hard when it keeps getting deleted without people suggesting how it might be improved. Titanium Dragon (talk) 11:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I understand the sentiment. I had the change to briefly see your additions this morning before they were deleted, and from what I recall I found that some of it were BLP violations that couldn't be accepted, some of it were not neutral claims that would have had to be reworded, and it was too long to be considered as giving due weight to the topic within the biography; but overall it could have been used as the basis for and reshaped into a section which covered the reports from several sources in a neutral way.
I suggest that you start a new section at the talk page where you create a list of sourced facts that you believe should be included in the article, in a general way and with as little detail as possible. Keep each separate fact in its own line of a bulleted list, and add items to the list one edit at a time. This way, if we later decide by consensus that some of the claims are poorly sourced and thus a WP:BLP violation, an administratorany editor will be able to rev-delete only those problematic claims, leaving the rest of your post available to be discussed and archived. Diego (talk) 11:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Revdel needs to delete the offending revision and any revisions which subsequently contain the text. So if the BLP violations are in the first edit, the entire list still needs to be deleted, along with any subsequent discussion. Either way, it doesn't seem like a good approach to encourage posting BLP violations on the grounds that they then can be deleted later.
I should add that the problem isn't simply sourcing - yes, there were unreliable sources with the problematic text, but there were also sourced claims that were BLP violations, either because the source doesn't work to the same rules we do, or the source didn't contain them as written. - Bilby (talk) 12:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Bilby, the whole point is that (general, non-specific) content in a Talk page about a living person is not a BLP violation if it's referenced, as BLP allows that kind of content. If the claim in the talk page does not match what the reference says, or if there's previous consensus that the source is unreliable, then yes, it's outside what BLPTALK allows. But tell me, how could such consensus possibly be formed if the discussion is removed on sight, without other editors being given a chance to evaluate it for reliability? Diego (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, but what you suggested was to post sourced "facts" for discussion, and use revdel if consensus is that they were BLP violations. That's simply not going to work. - Bilby (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I've been reviewing the relevant policy, and in truth sourced facts are actually not subject to revdel. Only "slurs, smears, and grossly offensive material" needs to be hidden from sight, but explicitly not to mere factual statements, and not "ordinary" incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations; if those are found to be BLP violations, it's enough to remove them from the page with a regular edit and it's OK to leave them available at history. So I see no problem in posting factual claims that are backed up by references and later removing them if found problematic. You're right with respect to content that should be revdeleted, but that is not the kind of material that is being handled at this article and talk page. I've updated my previous post to reflect this new understanding of policy that wasn't clear for me. Diego (talk) 13:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, in following your advice, Titanium Dragon has done exactly what I feared would happen, with more negative unsourced or poorly sourced claims about living people being posted. If we decide we need to revdel we'll need to kill the discussion as a whole, so it is probably better doing it earlier rather than later if it amounts to that. - Bilby (talk) 04:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I kind of did the reverse of this; I'll see about redoing it tomorrow when I'm less tired and cranky. Or maybe I'm lying and I'll do it tonight, who knows?
Regarding weight, I think a big part of the problem is that Zoe Quinn isn't actually especially notable; as I noted in the talk page for it, she's really only "notable" for three things, potentially: a brief burst of coverage when she claimed to be harassed, wherein pretty much all of the coverage ultimately derived from statements made by Quinn herself - harassment which may well not have actually occurred, as is presently alleged, which is precisely why we try to avoid such sourcing. A very small burst of coverage when the Game Jam she was involved in went down, and unfortunately one of the main articles about that was written by Grayson, which runs into conflict of interest problems (indeed, it is a part of the present scandal). And the present nonsense. She doesn't meet WP:AUTHOR, which doesn't mean she isn't notable but does mean that she doesn't really have a whole lot to be said about her as a creator. "She made a game, had sex with a reporter, and got in fights on the internet" isn't much of a Wikipedia article. Titanium Dragon (talk) 12:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Why is the talk page for Zoe Quinn protected? I was interested in being a part of the discussion but an administrator set it to protected until September 13. Can this be undone? I don't understand the purpose of protecting a talk page, not an article itself. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You can create an account an make a few constructive edits at other places for a few days - that will grant you autoconfirmed status, which will allow you to edit semi-protected pages. Meanwhile, if there's some comment you want to add to conversation, you can leave it at my talk page and I will post it in your behalf.
I have to say I agree with this IP request - page protection is a measure against extreme vandalism, but this is not what is going around the talk page. If there are BLP violations from IP editors, they can be by overseen and handled by the editors actively watching the talk page. Diego (talk) 11:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The page is semi-protected for good reason, as there is a significant history of IP harassment, trolling and sockpuppetry. That's what we do when that happens. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
There is? Where is that history documented? (honest question). Diego (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm an IP and I haven't harassed or sockpuppeted anybody. I haven't seen anyone else do this, either. Locking an entire talk page seems like a disproportionate reaction, when you can just deal with the problem editors individually.72.89.93.110 (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Come on, do some research. The protection log says a request was made at RFPP. I'm guessing there were a lot of bad IP edits the day the news broke, and it's been protected ever since. Check the edits made during that time of you're really that concerned. Sergecross73 msg me 17:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Is it normal practice to semi-protect a talk page? 72.89.93.110 (talk) 18:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
When the subject is a woman in the gaming industry who is on the receiving end of misogynist insults and harassment from angry male 18-35 gamers (a group that greatly overlaps with the Wikipedia crowd), the yea, unusual and extra page protection may be called for. Tarc (talk) 18:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I didn't see anything like that on the talk page. Isn't it borderline uncivil to accuse editors of being misogynists?72.89.93.110 (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That's because a lot of the worst offending comments have been deleted out of the page history. You literally can't see it anymore. Sergecross73 msg me 19:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
@Sergecross73, thanks for the pointer. I've reviewed WP:RFPP's history and could only find this, but I couldn't find anything about protecting the talk page. Are you sure that point has been debated? It also doesn't mention anything about sock puppets. Diego (talk) 21:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If we can return to actually discussing the WP page, that Guardian article, like the majority of the mainstream coverage, doesn't refer to the harassment campaign as 'alleged', or 'reported' - it states unequivicolly that it happened. Wikipedia articles reflect the sources, not the opinions of editors, and as such the harassment needs to be described as having happened in the article.Euchrid (talk) 05:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
@Euchrid:, that very same point was already raised at the talk page, and the current wording is the result of consensus addressing it. Please read the previous talk, and you can discuss it there if you have some new argument. Diego (talk) 08:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Persistent editing against consensus[edit]

RealDealBillMcNeal (talk Â· contribs) has persistently edited against consensus despite countless warnings from various editors.

  • Various sources have been removed as best explained in this archived discussion in July, with the actual dialogue stretching further back. Editor has chosen to continue with removal of a source against consensus.
  • Editor had been advised on an article talk page and project page that edits should follow what was stated in the reliable sources, but chose to sneak in an edit against consensus.
  • Editor has demonstrated an inability to participate in proper discussion, and accept wikipedia policies and alternative viewpoints, and had been blocked for 4 recent incidents of edit-warring.[91][92][93][94]

LRD NO (talk) 01:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Massive LOL. Removing a source from an oversourced section that I am working on improving with far more reliable sources. I note how you don't link to my dozen-plus recent edits on that same Cristiano Ronaldo article which have immensely improved both the content and the sources. But that wouldn't back up your unbelievably petty viewpoint. Funny, that.
  • Changing the word "British" to "national". Wow, how controversial. A) there's no difference, B) the consensus was British rather than English, as I had changed it to before any debate about the word. Nobody mentioned national. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 01:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have to remind you to be civil again, and any form of mockery will not help your case.
  • It has been explained to you many times that having other constructive edits does not mean that you can do this, this or this. You have removed a good reference from a statement that could be contended by the average non-football reader without good reason.
  • The consensus on both pages is to use 'British', the exact term supported by 3 reliable sources. You should follow that instead of sneaking in the edit with other stuff. LRD NO (talk) 02:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • The only form of mockery is being performed by you for this whole charade. Did you write the Bleacher Report article I removed or something? My edits on the Ronaldo article (that you have again failed to link... hmm wonder why!!!!!!!!!!) clearly show a huge attempt at improving the entire thing. Crying to the authorities about the word national. How is that civil? Just stop wasting people's time over something so ludicrously petty. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 02:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
My suggestion is for you to go through the above points again for the answers. For the record, I am not the author of the Bleacher Report article if it helps in any way. I will leave it to the administrators to judge this incident based on the evidence presented. LRD NO (talk) 03:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You still didn't answer why you have failed to link to the dozen edits I made to the Cristiano Ronaldo article which render your salient complaint beyond irrelevant. BTW, I just looked through those discussions. Not once is there consensus either way with regards to self-publishing clickbait content farm Bleacher Report. So, I didn't even need to respond as any administrator worth their salt would have figured that out within three minutes. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 03:45, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The other edits are irrelevant to the issue I've raised, namely removal of a source that other editors had agreed sufficient for Wikipedia standards, and that's why they are not included. The many links are there for administrators to see, including remarks on Bleacher Report and other sources, and they will base their judgement on the evidence presented. Thank you. LRD NO (talk) 04:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The other edits that show I've been editing the article to try and improve it, including the removal and replacement of some rubbish sources, are irrelevant in the removal of a source that was part of an oversourced sentence in a section that is in the process of being edited? It's amazing that your thought process upon seeing the edit wasn't to casually remind of the "consensus" I'd clearly forgotten about (because A) consensus didn't happen, and B) not everybody remembers every single thing that happens on Wikipedia going back months upon months), but instead you chose to fly through my edit history to try and point out editing errors and then report them to the administrators! RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 04:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Four reliable source citations for a statement that could be deemed contentious by the average non-football fan/reader is not excessive and helps in verifying of opinion, nor are removal of them suitably supported by edit summary removing Bleacher report. The links in this report posted above supports agreement by other editors that sources including Bleacher Report should not be removed indiscriminately. Past incidents are relevant in the case of repeat offences and ignoring consensus, hence they are included in this ANI report objectively. Thank you. LRD NO (talk) 05:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Contentious, even though the first link is enough on its on to back up the statement. Offence, even though as I've told you, the section it is within is being improved. I await an apology. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 05:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It could be contended by the reader unfamiliar with the subject, hence the four references (instead of one) supporting the statement. What had been done was the indiscriminate removal of a link because it is Bleacher Report, which does not improve the section in any way, and has in fact lessened the verifiability on it. Thank you. LRD NO (talk) 06:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If a reader unfamiliar with the subject reads a sentence that says it is football's biggest rivalry, and the very first source after that sentence says it is football's biggest rivalry, how is the reader going to be confused? "Hmm, this link says it is football's biggest rivalry, but I just can't be sure that that is what the link actually says. I need verification of this claim from a notorious content farm". Sounds plausible. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 14:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
A potentially contentious statement needs more than one link for verifiability, and should not depend on a lone source to make a judgement. You have just admitted that the Bleacher Report link was removed because you think it is a "notorious content farm", against what was discussed. I would like administrator's opinion on this ANI report. Thank you. LRD NO (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

If you two want to have a one on one conversation please do it on one of your talk pages. If you are seeking administrative attention then please just wait for an admin to respond. If an admin does not respond then it is likely not an administrative issue. Chillum 14:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I will wait for administrator response. Thank you. LRD NO (talk) 14:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Since I have warned Bill several times and already blocked him once I will not be personally responding this time. Chillum 14:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see what you want an admin to do here. AFAICS, this is a content dispute that should be resolved by consensus on the talk page of the related article(s).  Philg88 â™¦talk 15:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat- Alextaylor 8 unblock request[edit]

Resolved: Talk page access removed

Alextaylor 8 has made an unblock request that says "I did nothing but tell the people what they want to know and confirm the rumours that Pete price is a reptilian humanoid as David Icke suggested. I was snitched up by Mattythewhite as he has nothing better to do with his life. Please unblock my IP address so I do not feel excluded or I will sue both Wikipedia and Mattythewhite as they both are inconsiderate arseholes. Good day". He has made a legal threat. Is there anything that can be done regarding this situation? You may look at the talk page User talk:Alextaylor 8. 1999sportsfan (talk) 02:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, however, this is is not a legal threat as being an inconsiderate arsehole is not an actionable claim, except in Louisiana and Quebec. DocumentError (talk) 03:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
And I have declined that request. I suggest that another such request and access to his talk page be revoked. Daniel Case (talk) 03:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
However frivolous the claim, "I will sue" is, in fact, a legal threat (and a rather explicit one). - The Bushranger One ping only 04:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

First off, "I will sue" is a legal threat, even if the basis of the legal threat is not sound. We are not lawyers(perhaps some of us are). Secondly I have removed the talk page access of this user on the basis that they were using it for personal attacks. It really does not matter if it is a legal threat, the unblock request deserves the removal of talk page access either way. Chillum 16:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a troll account[edit]

Quite clearly a troll. Eik Corell (talk) 02:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for 48 hours by User:Chillum, but [95] calls is a suspected proxy server. If it is we need a much longer block. Any proxy experts out there? Dougweller (talk) 07:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Given the history of this IP and the fact that it is showing as a proxy I have upped the block to 6 months. Chillum 14:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Mac22203[edit]

Centerplate (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views)

User:Mac22203, a WP:SPA with no edits other than on the Centerplate article (concerning a food and beverage company), is intent on turning the article into a coatrack for negative material concerning an incident where the CEO of the company kicked a dog - an incident which clearly has nothing to do with the company's business concerns. Given that Mac22203 had repeatedly added grossly undue and non-neutral material on this incident, [96], and had refused to listen to the advice of contributors concerning the matter (see the article talk page and User talk:Mac22203) I removed the material entirely. Sadly, Mac22203 has chosen to edit-war over this, [97][98] despite being warned previously. Since it seems that Mac22203 is unwilling to comply, and is instead intent on abusing the article as a means to put the world to rights concerning the unfortunate dog, I would have to suggest that a block is necessary, at least until such time as Mac22203 accepts Wikipedia policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week per WP:EDITWAR. I've also left a reasonable offer on his talk page. I (or any other admin) can unblock him early if he pledges to use the article talk page, make his case, and build consensus rather than repeatedly try to add the same information over and over against consensus. As always, my admin actions are open for review, and if anyone thinks I incorrectly blocked this user, insofar as they should be allowed to continue their actions, feel free to unblock them and let them go about their business. --Jayron32 04:09, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Good work, Jayron32. DocumentError (talk) 04:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Unreasonably long block for a new user. Grump gave a one-sided explanation of the facts. New users did not have the opportunity to defend himself. I observed that New User made an attempt to comply with Wikipedia policies while Grump baited him into a revert-rule violation (a favorite tactic of long-time editors). Grump did not seek let alone receive concensus for removing all mention of the Des Hague scandal from the article. But yeah, good work.Brmull (talk) 04:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Um, what? How exactly does repeatedly adding material against a clear consensus 'comply with Wikipedia policies'? Mac22203 had been repeatedly advised to discuss this on the talk page - to which his sole response was to accuse all and sundry of 'bias' and 'censorship'. The simple facts of the matter are that 'man kicks dog' is unlikely to merit a Wikipedia article, and that accordingly an article on a business was being used as a coatrack to get the incident into Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It should probably be noted that User:Brmull isn't uninvolved here - and had in fact added further content [99] to a list of 'Venue Partners' that Mac22203 originally added to the article with a clear intent of advancing a boycott on the company.[100] AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Some minds "think alike", so to speak. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Good block. In addition to edit-warring, he also came close to making a legal threat. If the incident is widely known, it could merit maybe one sentence with citation. Otherwise, as you said, it's mostly about that guy, who currently has a redlink for an article. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if it merits anything despite being very widely known in Canada due to the CBC carrying the story on the national news. It still has nothing to do with the company, just its (now ex-) CEO. --NellieBly (talk) 09:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If the CEO resigned over this, then that merits a one-line mention with a proper citation link. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Note We now have new (or 'new') contributors adding similar material to the article. [101][102] AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Havana Reggie is an obvious sockpuppet and I have blocked as such. Will watch the other editor. GB fan 11:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mac22203 on the 3 new editors that have shown up with similar content. GB fan 12:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You may want to include Michael Cornelius (talk Â· contribs), who turned up after a 7-year absence just to comment on this. And likewise include Brmull (talk Â· contribs), who didn't ask, but demanded that the "undue weight" tag be removed. If neither prove to be socks, then fine. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:31, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Enigma8[edit]

Resolved

Warnings at User talk:Enigma8 have been ignored, and the latest edit by Enigma8 is to remove an {{Afd}} template from Gabriel de Saint Nicholas (please see discussion page at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gabriel de Saint Nicholas), at the same time again deleting a number of citation-needed tags, &c. Enigma8 appears to be one identity of the IP 46.107.174.107. Can someone please revert the last edit to Gabriel de Saint Nicholas to reinstate the {{Afd}} template and also consider blocking Enigma8? Thank you! Moonraker (talk) 10:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the tag, issued a 3rr warning, and asked the primary account to identify any alternates. DrKiernan (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I've just found Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NYCsociety/Archive. Looks like another sock farm from the same editor. DrKiernan (talk) 10:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The only response was to continue edit-warring, so I've blocked and tagged the accounts. Moonraker, in future please remember to notify any user that you mention at ANI. Thanks. DrKiernan (talk) 11:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz[edit]

This editor and I have had several conversation both on Talk:Kevin Sorbo and on User talk:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz‎, which are documented below. His style seems to be largely bluster and insult wherever he goes, treating just about everyone without any civility whatsoever. I have a pretty thick skin, and was going to let this go, until I decided I'd have a look at his editing work where it seems like there might be some gaming WP:Game going on. While he does make some constructive edits, most of his are destructive and insulting. He issues personal attacks via edit summaries [103] ("absolute blithering idiocy", "claptrap", "outright phony claim"). Nor does he seem to post warnings on users pages (helpful when we're fighting vandalism). While he might be "right" about the edits he makes, it does not give him license to insult all other editors while he's doing it. His 800-section Talk Page (preserved in its entirety here in case it gets cleaned up) [104] is littered with arguments between him and others based on personal attacks.

When he's called on it (as noted in talk page history and through my own experience below), his typical behavior is to immediately turn the tables and call the criticism "offensive". Speed and efficiency are great, but effectiveness is also important and this style of editing and reviewing does not foster individual's learning how to better edit the encyclopedia. It only creates turmoil, resentment and resistance.

Normally, I'd just walk away, and I'm fully aware that this submission will result in an ad hominem attack by this user. However, this individual is doing more damage to the project than he is good. I request a warning be issued and if behavior does not improve, further action be taken.

Background and Conversations[edit]

I received a bot messages asking for feedback at the Talk:Kevin Sorbo Page. When I arrived at that talk page, here's the "discussion" that had taken place thus far: [105]

Then, in an effort to provide focus, I posted a message asking if the purpose of the RFC was to call people names or discuss the content suggested for the article. The remainder of the "conversation", including my first entry is here: [106]


Now, User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz might have been correct about the sock issue. And I wanted to afford him every benefit of the doubt, but also wanted to handle it per WP process and policy, I left the following message on this individual's talk page: [107]

And got this reply: [108]

And I responded so (even though I might should not have): [109]

Which he reverted.

To which I wrote: [110]

Which he reverted again, claiming it was "unwanted and offensive".

Thank you for your attention and consideration. Vertium When all is said and done 14:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

Just my 2 cents, but IMO this is just "par for the course" for interaction with HW even when someone interacts with him with a measure of logic and civility. Granted, he is an active and staunch editor of BLP articles, but I would also say that he is greatly prone to hyperbole at the very least with Edit Summaries such as "Gov. Christie, your opinions are not an appropriate substitute for independent, reliable sources!"[111], "still unsupported/unsourced, obvious sockpuppetry"[112], "clean up, yet another porn-related list deserving evisceration"[113], and my personal favorite "another gross BLP violation"[114] (you have to look at the dif to get why I find it so humorous) when relatively minor edits or changes are made including the removal of sourced content that he seemingly does not like. This hyperbole is also applied to Editors that seemingly do not unabashedly agree with his edits and methods. He will of course accuse me of the same in his defense, but that does not explain or justify his actions. Furthermore, lately he does seem to want to control conversations (or the impression of them at least) on his Tolstoy-ishly long (and desperately in need of archiving) Talk page. For example we recently had this exchange. HW kept deleting my comments [115][116][117][118] when I challenged him on his racism accusation. I'm not entirely sure if his actions amount to a Talk page policy violation (and don't care), but in my experience its par for this User. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"'par for the course' for interaction with HW even when someone interacts with him with a measure of civility"? I haven't worked with HW enough to have an opinion about her/his civility, but I have with you, and your edit summary [119] in reply to one of his recent edits is incivil: "Undid revision 623630303 by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz Useless, lazy Editor refuses to AGF and check references on their own, prefers own personal knowledge of porn." Lightbreather (talk) 04:00, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Single-Purpose Disruptive Account[edit]

Krzyhorse22 first registered an account on WP on 30AUG2014. His first edit to WP was to file an ANI against StanTheMan87 in which he shotguns out a variety of accusations with no diffs, including 3RR, sockpuppetry, WP:CIVIL, etc. In the same ANI he claims he has consulted with "the head of CIA" on his allegations against StanTheMan87. To capstone this bizarre behavior, he has been relentlessly attempting to have .File:Mullah Omar.png, a long-established and clearly permissible image file, deleted, see: [[120]], . More importantly, StanTheMan87 is a relatively new editor and this assault may serve to intimidate and deter him from contributing in the future. DocumentError (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Someone Call Comey!!! Now!!! Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 16:45, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeh, I'm sure he called the CIA director. Like I just called the president of Timbuktu. That looks like at best an argument from authority (with no source) and at worst a hint at a legal threat. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Can't someone just warn him for his disruptive behaviour? Sure, he spoke to the director of the CIA, like I spoke to the head of the CID. :/ --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 19:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
DocumentError, my first edit was deleted. I had nominated an image that StanTheMan87 uploaded with false license. That's not a bizarre behavior and it's not disruptive. Don't misinterpret my words and actions, take a chill pill and stop harassing me. Tell StanTheMan87 to stop uploading images with false licenses.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 21:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Technically speaking, nobody is harassing you. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 21:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Meanwhile, stop making bogus claims about having called the CIA director. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Rsrikanth05, reporting someone just because he just joined Wikipedia is clearly harassment, and singling out a particular person.
Bugs, you have no idea who I am, meaning I could be a CIA agent and nobody will ever know. What's so big about emailing head of CIA? BTW, I just observed DocumentError (talk Â· contribs), he himself behaves like a single purpose account. [121] He likely created his own article (Andrew Hughes) or is someone who is closely connected to that dude. That, and him defending a new account (StanTheMan87), leads us to believe that he is disrupting Wikipedia. Check this. [122] [123]--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
sounds legit DocumentError (talk) 22:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘, Now it looks like you are accusing others. Are people here so jobless? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 07:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violations by Samuel Wesley[edit]

Samuel Wesley has been warned about copyright violations and he has not desisted from performing them. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Just a note. The user, User:Samuel Wesley, is a new editor who had only been editing for a half hour when Tgeorgescu reported them here. Their first edit was at 17:54 and this report was made at 18:27 of the same day. In my opinion, Tgeorgescu needed to at least try to wait for a response from this new editor before running to an admin noticeboard to report the user. Additionally, Tgeorgescu for some reason thought that this new user could find their way through a busy page such as AN/I to an issue about themselves. They're a new editor. At least give them a link to the specific discussion thread! Dismas|(talk) 09:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

guerillero, chillum, dreadstar lying to own a page[edit]

Guerillero has now admitted, checkuser shows that I'm a thousand miles from the people from texas they were claiming I am, but they keep blocking and harassing any editor not a member of their pro-woo groups at Vani Hari. It's so obvious they are abusing when they accuse people of being "sockpuppets", vani hari followers think everyone is a "monsanto shill" or something else. You need better admins who are capable of honesty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.100.12 (talk) 18:41, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Range block, anyone? Ansh666 19:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
maybe you admins should be made to follow the rules instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.100.12 (talk) 20:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
What rules, sire? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 21:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Removal and editing of discussion/proposal/editing of comments from article talk page[edit]

I ask that User:Yworo's edits to Talk:Chelsea Manning#Painting a horse does not make a zebra ([124] and [125]) be reverted and the original content be restored. The demeanor of the edit summaries, and the conduct itself, makes it plain that any attempt to restore my comments to the comments that I made, unedited, will result in an edit war. Int21h (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

In addition this user has been very WP:UNCIVIL with a WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on said talk page. [126] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

There is also a topic by the user below about this. Int21h (talk) 21:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Just attempting to comply with WP:BLP, which dictates that attacks against a living subject should be removed or struck. Insisting that a transgender person is a gender other than the one they identify with is hate speech, as is suggesting that gender-neutral pronouns be used. "Knowingly and deliberately misgendering a transgender person is considered extremely offensive by transgender individuals" (From Transphobia#Misgendering and exclusion, see article for further information on this topic). We'd not leave a reference to a black subject using the N-word on a talk page, and we should not be allowing deliberate misgendering of a subject or suggestions that they be grammatically treated as an object rather than a person. Yworo (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87, don't encourage editors to compare BLP subjects to animals. Honestly, just stop it; it's not productive.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Im not encouraging anything, my complaint is that the user is being disruptive on the talkpage rather than being WP:CIVIL and talking things out. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
BLP subjects are humans and humans are animals, so any comparison is not only unintended but unnecessary. Int21h (talk) 21:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Int21h posted a comment including the remark "Chelsea is a male, not a female", which is gender-based hate speech directed toward a living person and prohibited by WP:BLP. See Transphobia#Misgendering and exclusion for perspective. Please advise. Yworo (talk) 21:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Accusing him of hate speech is a personal attack. 80.132.100.97 (talk) 21:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Can you provide a diff for this "hate speech"? Chillum 21:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
[127]. It also compares the living subject to an animal and suggests she be referred to using gender-neutral pronouns, all of which are deliberately offensive toward a living transgender subject, as documented with citations in our article about Transphobia. Yworo (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Here are the diffs of concern. In the last day or so, "transphobia" has been cited as an editing justification without basis. First, at this edit, the photo of Manning was removed with the comment "transphobia". Only the photo had been released by Manning's own attorney. Next Yworo reverts comments here from an experienced editor which are reasonable and neutrally phrased. Yworo also struck the statement quoted above. (The remarks have been restored and the strikeout removed.) IMO, and in the opinion of two other editors, this is not hate speech. This thread can be closed. – S. Rich (talk) 21:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I was topic banned for less than that. Int21h should likewise be topic-banned. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That would be acceptable. I second the proposal that Int21h should be topic-banned from all subjects dealing with transgender issues. Yworo (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
You forgot the part about "frequently accused other participants in the dispute of malice", Bugs. 80.132.100.97 (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I for one am sick of editors crying "TRANSPHOBIA!" on every other edit an editor makes on the article, if you spot transphobic comments bring them up here and let a consensus be the judge. I oppose the topic ban. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Then you need to get my own topic ban rescinded. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Bugs you can start your own thread if you want to talk about your topic ban. It is not appropriate here. Chillum 21:43, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That's a cop-out on your part. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I just want to remind too that this article is under discretionary sanctions by ArbCom. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see hate speech. I see a point of view based on biology that differs from your point of view based on something other than biology. To be "hate speech" it would need to be based in hate. Consensus can decide what is in the article and people are allowed to disagree on the talk page. Also for the purposes of biological definitions humans are animals. Chillum 21:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Agree completely. I feel like Yworo is jumping the gun here to call it "hate speech" - if one's well-referenced viewpoint is hate speech, where do we draw the line on what hate speech is and isn't? It would be hate speech to go into the thread and rant about transgender people are some terrible combination of offensive words, not contributing a suggestion to make a possibly confusing topic more neutral. ProtossPylon 21:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Quite the contrary. When I was topic-banned a year or so ago, the topic was controversial. It has long since been settled, so if anything Int21h's comments are way more egregious than whatever I supposedly said. Anything short of topic-banning Int21h is unacceptable. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Transgender people commit suicide from the stress of being constantly misgendered. They are murdered by people who refer to them as "it". Misgendering is an attack and prohibited by WP:BLP. Yworo (talk) 21:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
See also "When a trans woman gets called a man, that is an act of violence." - Laverne Cox. Yworo (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Not saying it is or it isn't but just asking where under WP:BLP do you see this? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Check the details on my and several others' topic bans a number of months ago, and you will see the exact same logic applied, i.e. alleged BLP violations. If Int21h is not guilty of BLP violations, then neither am I. If I am guilty of BLP violations, then so is Int21h. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:45, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:BLPTALK, WP:BLPDELETE. Yworo (talk) 21:45, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
We also have a project page on this topic, Wikipedia:Gender identity which explicitly connects misgendering with transphobia. See also WP:DIGNITY and WP:HARM. Thanks. Yworo (talk) 21:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That is a disputed essay that was put into place the last time the big round of disputes took place involving the article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That's half right: it's an essay. In what way is it disputed? One thing that's not disputed, is that when it comes to living people, we err on the side of caution with respect to negative information and attacks. Also not disputed is that misgendering is indeed a personal attack against transgender people. Yworo (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and the part quoted at the top is from MOS:IDENTITY, which is part of the Manual of Style and is thus policy. Referring to transgender individuals by chosen gender-identification is required, not optional. Yworo (talk) 22:09, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, it cannot require anything. WP:NPOV is a policy. Chillum 22:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That does not apply to talk pages. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Correct, but WP:BLP does apply to talk pages, and requires that we treat the subject respectfully both in articles and in discussions. And misgendering is extremely disrepectful to transgender people, as documented in Wikipedia's own articles on transgender subjects. Yworo (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed with the above that this is not hate speech, you are blowing this up way more than it needs to be. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Break[edit]

I think you are diminishing the terms "hate speech" and "transphobia" with your claims. It requires neither hate nor fear to believe that transgendered people have not actually changed gender. It is not a reasonable assumption of good faith to attribute hate or fear to an opinion that was based on the science of biology.

Wikipedia is meant to represent a neutral point of view, as such attributing fear or hate people's concerns damages this neutral point of view. Chillum 22:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

As Yworo suggests, the WikiProject page is the best place to discuss these issues in general. As for the particular thread, we have a case where righting great wrongs is spilling out in a completely disorganized and useless discussion. Just what is being asked of the administrators? Sanctions, Bans, Arbcom enforcement, or what?? – S. Rich (talk) 22:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
What really needs to be done is to contact everyone who agreed with topic-bans on this subject a year ago, and see if they think Int21h's comments are likewise ban-worthy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I concur that this would be proper if indeed such is the topic of this section. Int21h (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have asked one of the admins involved in that discussion a year ago to comment on this. Either both of us should be topic-banned, or neither of us should be topic-banned, because we were/are accused of the same things - transphobia, comparing transsexuals with animals, hate speech, etc. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
(Edited) And just to clarify, did you compare transsexuals with animals, or did you assert that transsexuals were not human? Int21h (talk) 22:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I didn't think I had, but someone else decided that I had. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
At this point, what I asked for has been achieved: restoration of the discussion and my comments. But was this topic merged with the other topic by User:Yworo, or was the other topic removed? Int21h (talk) 22:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Topic was merged by a third party, not me. And that's pretty much standard procedure on ANI. Yworo (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Since there is not much agreement that the comment was "hate speech" and the other party is satisfied perhaps this can be closed? Chillum 22:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

No. If it was hate-speech a year ago, then it still is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Now that this has been brought to ArbCom's attention, I think you could close all or most of this. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Bugs im sorry about your ban but in this case there appears to be a consensus that it was not hate speech. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
What has changed between last September and this September... other than different random users (not real "consensus")? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Bugs this is the last warning I am going to give to you. The topic of this thread is not your topic ban, we are not run by precedent either. Create your own thread if you want to talk about your topic ban. You are being disruptive. Chillum 22:27, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It is you who are being disruptive. Fine, I'll open a separate section. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Try bringing it up in your own section here after this discussion closes. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
A cop-out, as with Chillum's earlier comment. It is unethical for you and him to be allowed to get away with this. I will continue to notify other users who were responsible for my topic ban a year ago, and then you'll find out what the real "consensus" is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:28, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If Baseball Bugs is still under a topic ban, they're pretty blatantly breaking it here, aren't they? How is this helping? __ E L A Q U E A T E 22:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Im not going to try to sway someone to their side here... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I was not banned from talking about topic-bans. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:35, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That sounds like, what's it called, BS? You're not supposed to be talking about other people's topic bans, just your own, and only in the context of a formal appeal. Am I correct about that, per WP:TBAN? (I'm not asking Bugs, but other editors who are familiar with the subject. Bugs should probably cool it.) __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Given your personal attack immediately above, I will comment. I'm not aware of any rule that says I can't talk about the fact of my topic-ban. I am not allowed, nor am I even interested, in talking about the subject of the topic ban. I merely seek fairness and consistency. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not asking Bugs to continue discussing it, I clearly made no personal attacks, and Bugs is clearly participating in a thread that isn't about their topic ban, and is about the Chelsea Manning page and the subject of their topic ban. That's pretty cut-and-dried.__ E L A Q U E A T E 23:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It is not your place to decide what I consider a personal attack. But given that you can't tell hate speech when you see it, it's for sure you can't tell a personal attack when you write it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

  • No sanctions can be applied via discretionary sanctions, as {{Ds/alert}} was not assigned, and no participation at WP:AE or WP:RFAR processes = Int21h cannot be sanctioned via DS without an alert. The community can still apply sanctions, however. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 23:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I have re-submitted my original comment/proposal to make sure it is clear I am aware of the ArbCom final decision in the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology case and that my original comment/proposal should be bound by it. None of my comments have been anything other than in support of, and supported by, WMF and Wikipedia policies. I want to make it clear: if you think I have violated any such policy, bring it on. Int21h (talk) 23:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Relevant ArbCom ruling[edit]

There is a relevant ArbCom ruling at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning naming dispute, specificly:

Disruptive participation by Tarc states,

During the course of the dispute, Tarc (talk · contribs) intentionally engaged in inflammatory and offensive speech ("Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make a heifer become Marilyn Monroe", "Bradley Manning simply doesn't become a woman just because he says so") in a self-admitted attempt to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point.

This is a nearly exact parallel to Int21h's heading and statements. His/her heading reads "Painting a horse does not make a zebra". ArbCom ruled 8 to 0 that such comments are disruptive, using the example, ""Putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make a heifer become Marilyn Monroe". Both users used analogies based on animals. Both users denied the validity of Manning's gender identification. Yworo (talk) 23:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Based on this ArbCom precedent, I again request that Int21h be topic-banned or at least warned that such comments are indeed considered inflammatory and disruptive. Yworo (talk) 23:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Again not every comment is the same. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Where were you a year ago, when I needed you? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Commenting like everyone else in the huge discussion, not every comment was given the same weight remember. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I suggest you take it up with arbcom if you think that an arbcom ruling is being violated. Chillum 23:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I've raised this with a couple of admins who supported the ban a year ago, which someone above claimed was "canvassing", so I dare not comment to anyone else who supported it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I would welcome an ArbCom discussion. I obviously disagree that my comments were in any way other than in support of, and supported by, WMF and Wikipedia policies. Int21h (talk) 23:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
The last thing anyone wants is arbcom, it will take months for a result over one comment that almost everyone here has said is not hate speech. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
There's a huge difference between being intentionally disruptive, and trying to start a discussion from an opposing point of view. Even if Int21h's comments do get judged to be in bad taste (which I think they aren't), I feel that a topic ban for the first offense seems absolutely insane, given the context that it wasn't deliberately meant to offend someone. Also, the comment in reference to Tarc doesn't apply here. It was an Arbcom ruling for Tarc, specifically, and you failed to include the diff linked to "self-admitted attempt" where Tarc admitted that he was being rude for the sake of argument. I feel like you're grasping at straws now that you're at the point where you cherry-pick Arbcom rulings, and you seem to be taking way more offense to an attempted discussion than I would expect anyone - transgendered or not - to. ProtossPylon 23:31, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
ArbCom did not just rule on disruption: it ruled 8 to 0 that comments questioning a subject's gender-identification are "inflammatory and offensive". Yworo (talk) 23:34, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Could you point out where in the ruling it says that? All I see is a ruling on Tarc's abusive comments, not on questioning gender-identity as a whole. As far as I can tell, those comments were listed as examples of the uncivil comments he was posting. ProtossPylon 23:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If you are going to link the section link the whole thing, Tarc said three comments that were deemed as offensive, we have one comment here that a majority of editors here has deemed as non hate speech. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:38, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You know, not everyone buys into, or is even aware of, the distinction between gender and sex. I doubt Arbcom is going to serve up an edict on this one way or another. Don't go there.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • The whole thing has already gone to Arbcom. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Arbcom discussion[edit]

Yworo has brought this up at arbcom here: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Int21h - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:10, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Accordingly, I have no objection to this thead being closed and tagged with this result. Yworo (talk) 00:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
They're going to do nothing with the editor in question, and they're going to block me for pointing out the hypocrisy. I'm sick of this place. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Tarc speaks[edit]

Well, thanks to Bugs for the info that I was being discussed, albeit tangentially.

There's a misconception here, though; I was not topic-banned for the "lipstick on a pig" comment, I was topic-banned for an 11th-hour revelation that it was all a put-on. Even that punishment was only because they couldn't think of anything better, only WTT I believe suggested a rather stern warning (which IMO would have been proper, given no prior history of this sort of thing), while a few others foolishly floated the idea of a blanket BLP ban. So, yea, if I'd stayed silent, that and the other comments I made would have earned no restriction or censure whatsoever. Let's make that perfectly clear here, your Arbitration Committee TOOK NO ACTION on the comments detailed here.

Again, I will say though that my ruse was a stupid and ill-formed idea, and that given a do-over I would repeat any of those antics. I did not take in to account how it would affect actual transgender people and supporters thereof. The person you're talking about here that made the zebra stripe comment, Int21h, is a bigot. I'll say that plainly and clearly right now. It is the height of prejudice and disrespect to not honor a transgender person's chosen gender, full stop, period, no wiggle room. However, if you're going to judge this person by the standards set by the Arbitration Committee in the Manning Dispute last year, then you're going to have to let the zebra comment slide, with maybe at most a warning. Change starts from the top and trickles down, folks; if you want this sort of thing to be truly actionable, there's not much you can do when the head rot trickles downward. Tarc (talk) 00:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The all-mighty Tarc has spoken, thanks for your input on the matter. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, that's all fine and good, but it's not the reasoning used in the arbitration case. And that's what counts here, right? Anyway, pleased to meet you, Tarc, and apologies for not thinking to inform you that I was using your name (hopefully not) in vain. Yworo (talk) 00:45, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I notified Tarc because he's the only other victim subject of that ArbCom ruling that I recall having interacted with before. The other user ID's did not look familiar. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Well THATS throwing down the gauntlet.Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Popcorn[edit]

Topic-ban question[edit]

Less than a year ago, several of us were topic-banned for allegedly saying the very same things for which the editor Int21h is now accused of saying but editors here are saying that somehow it's no longer a violation. The topic ban is [130], and you can research the lengthy discussion if you feel like it. The point is that either Int21h is as guilty as we were, or we are as innocent as he is. Wikipedia cannot have it both ways. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia:Other stuff exists would apply here, looking at what you were banned for it was more than just one comment made. I also want to add that every comment like articles are different and cant all be treated the same way. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That looks like an arbcom restriction. Does the community have the authority to overturn this? Chillum 22:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe you can't literally overturn it, but I want to see comments from others, of what has or has not changed since last October, so that I can appeal to the ArbCom if necessary. I claim the ban was a railroading on false pretenses. But even if they're right and I'm wrong about that, the accusations were the same then as now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
If my discussion/proposal and/or comments result in an ArbCom discussion, I think review of related ArbCom discussions would be proper. Int21h (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I've asked a couple of the admins who sealed the deal a year ago to come here (if they want) and review all of this. One of the above editors claimed I was "canvassing", which is pretty funny considering I posted on the pages of two admins who supported my getting banned. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
For the record, as I said above in the other section, as Int21h was not alerted to the DS (and other conditions that do not require alert to be made are not met), sanctions are not possible via DS at this point in time.
Also, Knowledgekid87: I was the case clerk for the Manning case, and Rschen7754 implemented the TBAN, so I do not agree with your assessment that the message was canvassing. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 23:40, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
In that case I owe @Baseball Bugs: an apology, sorry I didn't know. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Rogereeny. Thank you. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Considering you kind of poisoned the above discussion by trying to repeatedly influence it while topic-banned on the subject, I don't think it's a great example to compare with your own topic ban. Maybe if you'd let it run its course without personally interfering?__ E L A Q U E A T E 23:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

So it would die a quick death and you wouldn't have to face up to the inherent hypocrisy and double-standard? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:05, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
If it makes you feel any better, your TB and Tarc's were uncalled for. You were banned because they had the power to do so, and frankly you were an irritant and Tarc pulled that (brilliant I must say) stunt. There was no way they were not going to react. Two kinds of pork (talk) 01:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak to the other users' situations, but in my case the ban was imposed under false pretenses - namely, bogus accusations of bigotry. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Reevaluation of topic ban[edit]

I have been topic banned on the subject of vaccines, because of disruptive editing on September 2, 2013. The main reason was a link addition, to the website GreenMedInfo.com in regards to vaccine research, with a scope on adverse effects. The related discussion can be accessed here. I understand now that this link, or similar links may caused disruption, because it presented a narrow few on vaccine research, and it wasn't in accordance with Wikipedia's reliable sources policy or MEDRS. I belief the ban should be lifted now because i have positively contributed in the past year to many topics, including medical research, and a broad range of scientific subjects, without related incidents, and understand today the implications of editing such topics. I've not received a ban since then. Thus, i'm asking the community to lift my ban, thank you. Ping, John, AndyTheGrump, Nyttend, John Carter--prokaryotes (talk) 21:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not at this moment opposed to the idea. I do want to wait and see what others more familiar with the situation have to say before I support it though. Chillum 22:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
It should be noted that Prokaryotes asked here for this ban to be lifted less than three months ago - with the following argument:
"In September 2013, admin John topic banned me (vaccination). However, i believe the judgement was in error since i did not engaged in an edit war, got no warning and didn't acted disruptive. After a group of users through the fringe notice board begun to look into my related edits they concluded i post fringe material or lack competence. The archived heated discussion can be found here, where i complained at ANI about subsequent actions from a few users. Most accusations from these users were unfounded and as pointed out i do not think the incident amounted to a topic ban, since it doesn't fit with WP:DE. There was a single source mentioned which is not compatible with WP:MEDRS. I did no attempt to re-add criticized content and i have no plans at this time to edit any of these topics in the future. In my edits i used a wide range of sources, most of them were from government entities (CDC or from the FDA and from science journals)- the exact opposite of what has been suggested. I did not looked into this until yesterday and after a brief discussion with John today i conclude that he rushed his decision. I ask here for someone not involved to re-evaluate my topic ban status, because i feel it was enforced wrongly. If this isn't the right place for such an inquiry point me to one, Thank You. prokaryotes (talk) 20:24, 19 June 2014 (UTC) [131] (see full thread here [132])
As the original ANI threads (note that the discussion in August/September 1913 continued below the first thread linked above) made clear this was never just about a single edit - it was about a pattern of editing and battleground behaviour, and note also that it was Prokaryotes who started the thread that led to the topic ban - by accusing multiple editors of "framing me as a potential fringe and making allegations". Given that Prokaryotes still fails above to acknowledge the wider concerns about his behaviour, I have serious doubts about the wisdom of lifting the topic ban. However, I was heavily involved in the original debate, and it might be best for less-involved contributors to make the final decision. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
However, i have finally acknowledged the wider concerns, as outlined in today's request. It would be constructive/helpful if you could be more precise - point out exactly what you describe as "Prokaryotes still fails" in your response, and acknowledge my edit behavior of the past twelve months, which is opposite to your conclusions. For instance i acknowledged above that the ban was based on one particular link which was initially discussed and lead to the ANI request in 2013, additionally i mentioned "similar links" (emphasis added). --prokaryotes (talk) 00:51, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
It is also worth to point out that AndyTheGrump has an extensive block history for edit warring, personal attacks and legal threats, and since he does not provide accurate explanation of his reasoning, i wonder about his qualification to judge bans of other editors. --prokaryotes (talk) 01:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak for AtG and didn't take part in the earlier discussions. But I find it unlikely an extensive topic ban was put in place "main reason was a link addition, to the website GreenMedInfo.com". Amongst other things, in such a case I would more likely expect simply a ban from you using the source. It seems far more likely the topic ban was due to problematic behaviour that indicated you shouldn't be editing the topic area, of which using the GMI website is only one component. A quick glance at the discussion seems to confirm this guess. Promising not to use similar links doesn't really convey an understanding of the reasons for the block, even more so since it doesn't seem to be just about using unsuitable sources. Even for unsuitable sources, it's not just about using them but what your use of them and your comments in defence of them suggest about you understanding of how to handle this topic area. (Your comment explaining why they shouldn't be used does address this to some extent but I'm not sure it indicates a real understanding.) No comment on lifting the ban however. Nil Einne (talk) 02:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I acknowledged that the sources discussed do not met WP standards and my behavior in relation to the incident amounted to disruptive editing - which was the the main reason given for my ban, i pointed out my edit behavior since, i acknowledged the implications. If there is something missing, as has been suggested by ATG, i want to know exactly what it was, instead of vague assumptions, so that im able to respond accordingly. --prokaryotes (talk) 02:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I have slightly clarified my comment unfortunately I got an EC. I won't be commenting further since I've already spent more time on this than I care to so can't give a fair reply. I will just say your comment here combined with my reading of the original discussion does seem to re-enforce the view you don't really understand the reasons for your topicban. Mendaliv sums up my thoughts on another matter below. Nil Einne (talk) 03:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
In August 2013, i was still fairly new to Wikipedia editing and made a lot of bad and poor decisions during content disputes. I understand today what was lacking and what amounted to disruptive editing and subsequently the topic ban and a two week blocking, because some edits and follow up discussions were not in accordance with community editing. I understand what amounted to my community ban at the time. I also understand that posting about user edits at the fringe noticeboard, does not necessarily imply that a user is supporting fringe theories, which i mistakenly thought at the time. --prokaryotes (talk) 04:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No opinion on the topic ban, but I question the wisdom of pointing out another commenter's unrelated history in a discussion like this. If your intent, Prokaryotes, is to inspire the community to see you as willing to work collaboratively and follow our standards, you have a funny way of doing so. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I think my edit history speaks for itself. --prokaryotes (talk) 03:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't mean to be rude, but I think those opposing the lifting of your topic ban would agree with that sentiment. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 03:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Again, vague assumptions. --prokaryotes (talk) 03:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Having reviewed the original discussion and this thread I am weakly against the ban being lifted. Nevertheless if there is a consensus for it, per WP:ROPE I have no objection to the ban being lifted. Prokaryotes, you need to internalise that the ban was not simply for inserting that link, it was for advocating for bad science on Wikipedia. If you go back to your bad old ways you will be subject to escalating blocks. The ban was to protect you (and the project) from this disruption. Without the ban unless you radically change your approach this won't end well. Are you sure you want to go there? --John (talk) 06:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm confident that i can now competent edit the subject of vaccines, and i think my edits on medical topics prove that. There haven't been a single related incident in regards to my edits of medical topics since the topic ban was declared. There have been minor issues, such as section sorting. See my contributions on HIV/AIDS research, ZMapp, Microcystin or 2014 West Africa Ebola virus outbreak. This ban is now interfering with further edits on topics briefly mentioning vaccines. I have no intention to contribute to the articles which have been mentioned during the 2013 ANI incident. I do not plan to heavily edit vaccine topics at all. But i need to be able to make edits which mention vaccines on various related pages. Also if someone is still not convinced i ask to honor my entire contributions, not only focus on a handful of bad edits, or the related discussion. Since August 2013, i made like +4000 edits. --prokaryotes (talk) 06:54, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The grammatical errors in your above post do not lead me to believe you "can now competent edit the subject of vaccines". Yikes. Doc talk 06:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Competence doesn't require perfection. --prokaryotes (talk) 07:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
It does, however, require competence so that outsiders can read an article and get some understanding from it. MarnetteD|Talk 07:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The issue you raise was never a center point of my edits, and grammatical errors during my edits can be considered minor.--prokaryotes (talk) 07:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Eukaryotes vs. procaryotes? Doc talk 07:25, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
It's a symbiosis. --prokaryotes (talk) 07:28, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
"Also if someone is still not convinced i ask to honor my entire contributions". You do understand the absurdity of this "test", yes? Doc talk 08:31, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
You can browse user contributions, look up what you deem relevant, or pick from examples i have provided above. At least that's what i would do when judging user contributions, which is part of an appeal. --prokaryotes (talk) 09:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline First, the editor admits they "have finally acknowledged the wider concerns, as outlined in today's request". Excellent - prove that to us over the next 6 months of editing. Second, bringing up the absolutely unrelated block log of another editor is proof of a combative/battleground nature. Medical articles have enough of that bullshit already, and re-releasing someone who has such a mentality back into that area is a worse idea than strapping on metal underpants and standing on a hilltop during a lightning storm. the panda ₯’ 10:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I frequently edit medical articles without your alleged battleground behavior. The only time some raised concerns in those regards were in response to the ANI discussed here. --prokaryotes (talk) 10:06, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
... and your badgering of every respondent is yet further proof. Thanks for doing so. the panda ₯’ 10:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Please remove petitions.whitehouse.gov from the spam blacklist (or whitelist it)[edit]

The URL petitions.whitehouse.gov, the White House We the People website is currently blocked by the spam blacklist, because "petition" anywhere in a URL is blocked. (Previous discussions here and here. Changes made here in 2008 and here in 2009)

I made a request to have petitions.whitehouse.gov removed from the blacklist here becuase there was no consensus to pre-emptively blacklist every URL containing the string "petition" in the first place, nor was there ever a consensus to blacklist petitions.whitehouse.gov. My request was rebuffed. When I asked about previous, consensus, I was directed to a search results page which failed to show any consensus for blacklisting the URL.

The admin instructions for blacklisting instructs "Evidence- There should be clear evidence of disruption, persistent spamming or otherwise simply violates Wikipedia's policies or guidelines:" This seems to be a case of pre-emptive blacklisting. The consensus process was apparently not followed, and it has caused collateral effects. I request that either "petition" be removed from the blacklist, or that petitions.whitehouse.gov and sub pages be added to the whitelist, until such time as there is evidence of persistent spamming. Thank you. - MrX 01:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with MrX. Two kinds of pork (talk) 01:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Nitpick: the entry is \bpetition(?:online|s)?\b, which I think blocks anything beginning with "petitiononline" or "petitions". This is the actual addition. test --NE2 03:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Has the filter gotten in the way of any proper encyclopedic use since 2008? I don't understand why the whitelist simply cannot be used when there is a legitimate purpose. Chillum 03:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
No opinion on the blacklisting, but WP:ELNO #4 applies. Currently they list 102 petitions. Are all of them acceptable? Some? Are such petitions encyclopedic? Let's follow the guidance and minimize such links. – S. Rich (talk) 03:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
@Chillum: Nobody is going to go beg for a whitelist entry just to add a citation to an article. The URL should not be blacklisted, unless there is evidence that it has been persistently spammed.
@Srich32977: The need that I encountered was to use a URL in a citation. Using such an URL in an external link would indeed be inadvisable per ELNO.- MrX 04:07, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I have to agree with the OP. It seems insane to block petitions.whitehouse.gov. There is no need to whitelist anything. You just need to fix the regular expression that is causing the problem. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
The regex should be removed and individual sites blacklisted on an as need basis. AGF applies.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I cannot imagine many situations when a link to an online petition would be a reliable source. If anything you would need a source that interprets the raw data to avoid drawing our own interpretations. Chillum 04:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

And for citing that a petition exists and garnered Y votes is unreliable despite being on the originating site? You seem unaware of what a reliable source is. Also the White House response to these petitions is also blacklisted. That is certainly a reliable source for what it says. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Remove the blacklist, AGF applies and making whitelist exceptions on a case by case seems to go against normal procedures. It makes an unnecessary burden on editors. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • AGF is for editors, not websites. I agree with Chillum. Why do we need to link to promotional websites like this? It's infinitely better to link to secondary sources that discuss the petition. If we blanket allow this – or, even worse, all – petition sites, we'll be inundated with external links and citations to petitions. I for one don't want to chase down all these links, and I think people should use the whitelist. There really isn't any legitimate reason to link directly to a petition. If I saw someone do so, I would instantly revert it on principle; unless reliable, third party sources discuss the petition, it's undue to add it to an article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Umm, has anyone got a proposal for something that would help the encyclopedia? What external link should be added to what article? Johnuniq (talk) 05:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Ignoring that this request is close to forum shopping / asking the other parent. Petition sites got persistently abused - not spammed by one single user (most highly visible porn sites have never been spammed, they get however, still, constantly abused by single users, not through a campaign - and to stop that abuse the items are blacklisted - does WP:AGF apply to all the editors that replace their school website by redtube.com?).

Regularly there were statements added along the lines of 'Please sign the petition here!'. That is soapboxing, not allowed per our pillars (WP:NOT#SOAPBOX). Allowing petition sites allows that soapboxing. Does WP:AGF apply when an editor wants to stack votes for their good cause? Because that is the abuse that is being stopped.

Moreover, the specific petitions are not notable for mentioning on Wikipedia until someone else writes about it (it is a reliable source that the petition exists, but there is no reason to write about it until it gets picked up by mainstream journalism or similar). That someone else wrote about it is a secondary source, which trumps the need for the primary source. When the result is out, the situation is the same, if someone else mentioned it, that secondary source trumps the primary source - the primary source is not needed. Now, there are exceptions where the primary source is needed, or where there is other information that needs to be primary sourced ('the president signed it!!' - though if that is notable, others will have picked up that fact as well). Those requests can be whitelisted. Same goes for specific petitions that gain notability in their own (where it would be an WP:ELOFFICIAL) - whitelisting can and has been done. I hence oppose removal of these rules. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Diff, diff and diff are examples of the type of soapboxing encountered with petition sites (petitiononline.com). --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:37, 2 September 2014 (UTC)