Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at peer review. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to a nomination. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ucucha, Graham Colm, and Ian Rose—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared, after at least one reviewer has suggested it be withdrawn.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

The use of graphics or templates on FAC nomination pages is discouraged, including graphics such as {{done}}, {{not done}} and {{xt}}: they slow down the page load time and lead to errors in the FAC archives.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time; however, two nominations may be allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. Nominators whose nominations are archived with no (or minimal) feedback will be given exemptions.

To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{ArticleHistory}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache, Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks


Featured content:

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. The featured article toolbox (at right) can help you check some of the criteria.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, the coordinators may ignore it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may want to create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use emboldened subheadings with semicolons, as these create accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so after the reviewer's signature rather than striking out or splitting up the reviewer's text. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, break up, or add graphics to comments from other editors; replies are added below the signature on the reviewer's commentary. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.



Luo Yigu[edit]

Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the first wife of later Chinese communist political leader Mao Zedong. Little is known of her, and thus this is a fairly short article. It was ignored during its prior FAC (summer 2013) so it would be great if people could give it a look over and a review this time. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Support from Hamiltonstone. One query. The article states "The wedding ceremony culminated with the guests entering the bridal chamber, where they would make various sexual references and innuendos, led by a figure with his face painted black.[7] The bride had to show the bloodstains on the bed sheets from her wedding night to prove that her hymen had been broken during sexual intercourse, and that she had therefore been a virgin" and cites this text to Pantsov and Levine. Are we clear whether the authors are describing a traditional ceremony of the period in general, or are they saying that these specific rituals were definitely followed in the case of this particular wedding. If the former, suggest wording be tweaked to begin "The wedding ceremony would have culminated..." hamiltonstone (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment – Sounds like a fine piece of work considering how little info there is on her. I will try to read the article more closely later. For now just one question: why is her name given as Luo Yigu when the pinyin transliteration gives her name as Luo Yixiu? If this is more than a mistake, shouldn't this discrepancy be explained somewhere in the article? Madalibi (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Nagato-class battleship[edit]

Nominator(s): Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The Nagato-class ships were the first battleships to be armed with guns greater than 15 inches (380 mm) and followed the Japanese policy about having individual ships more powerful than those of their potential enemies. The Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) knew that they could not out-build other powers and individual superiority was their only route for success. Reserved for the decisive battle that the IJN anticipated against the US Navy during the Pacific War, they did not see much action during the war. Mutsu was destroyed in an accidental magazine explosion in 1943 and her sister ship Nagato ineffectually participated in the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. Lightly damaged during the battle she returned home for repairs that Japan could not afford to make. She was modified to serve as a floating anti-aircraft battery and survived the war. She was used by the Americans as a target ship during their post-war atomic bomb tests. She sank during the second one of these and is now a diveable wreck at Bikini Atoll.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments: I've looked at the changes made since I copyedited this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Katy Perry[edit]

Nominator(s): SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 19:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC) & S△M talk 19:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is Katheryn Elizabeth "Katy" Hudson aka Katy Perry. She's the California Gurl who kissed another girl and very much liked it. When I first started working on this article slightly over one year ago, it was a delisted GA. Ever since, I've done intricate work on this article and have made over 1,000 edits to the page. I now believe she's finally ready for that bronze star. In March 2009, she went through a premature GAN and failed for prose, but was successfully brought to GA three weeks later. However, she was delisted in October 2012 for prose and reference issues. After a detailed peer review from JennKR this past January, the article went through more expansion and fine-tuning before a successful GAN last month. Thank you again, Petergriffin9901, for all your input during the GAN. Looking back, the article was in better state this past May (when I nominated this for GA) than it ever was before October 2012. Shortly afterwards, I took this to peer review for further improvement. Within the last couple weeks, I've done some more polishing before this FAC. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 19:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Chasewc91[edit]

Overall, this is a very well-written and well-structured article that includes an abundance of info without being obscenely large. I will be more than happy to lend my support once these concerns are addressed. –Chase (talk / contribs) 02:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Remaining concerns are dated 23:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC). (CTRL+F the timestamp) Just thought I'd add this at the bottom for convenience. –Chase (talk / contribs) 23:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Chase how does she look now? Also, do you think perhaps there's enough material to warrant a "legacy" section for this article or is it too soon in her career?? SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 00:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Way too soon. But a lot of great improvements have been made and I now gladly support this nomination. Kudos to your very hard work, Snuggums and Sam, and best of luck. –Chase (talk / contribs) 01:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WikiRedactor[edit]

Support, I am very happy to see all of the hard work you put into this article has paid off! Great job! WikiRedactor (talk) 18:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you- I have indeed put my blood, sweat, and tears into this page! SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:43, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Ritchie333[edit]

  • Support pending comments above - I was involved in the peer review, and thought there would be some more minor prose issues that FAC would throw up, but Snuggums seems to be on top of them all, so I'm happy to think this will not be hard to reach the FA criteria. It's a well written and informative article about an increasingly important figure in modern entertainment. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 18:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Prism[edit]

  • Just a minor point, but why isn't—at least—Sam listed as a nominator? He really contributed to the development of the article and should get some recognition, in my opinion. My comments on prose/files/etc will be here soon. (I'm excited to see that this already has two supports!) pedro | talk 20:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Prism the reason is because when I launched this FAC, it automatically just listed my own username. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 23:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I think you should add him, though. pedro | talk 23:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I saw. I'll be back tomorrow. pedro | talk 00:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

pedro | talk 14:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

How is she now, Prism? SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 15:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Better than ever, 'resulting in me giving you another Support' (that's me trying to make a joke). I know you—Snuggums—since last year, when we started edit-wars over what images to include on Prism's composition section. You've come a long way since then, in terms of writing and being nice to others. This is truly your finest work, as well as Sam's, and I can't congratulate you enough! pedro | talk 15:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Prism! I do agree this is easily my best work yet, and is unquestionably the article I'm most proud of so far. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 15:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from IPadPerson[edit]

  • Support, Your tireless work on this article has really made it meet the requirements for FA based on its layout and look. This would definitely be the right time for its nomination to FA instead of doing so at the last minute. The article's sources also seem to be in very good shape. Keep up the good work! IPadPerson (talk) 08:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Retrohead[edit]

  • Support on prose and support on enthusiasm and team work. My concerns were dealt with the speed of light, and I've got no further objections. You've outdone yourself on this one Snuggums. Turning an article from C-class into a featured item is an admirable feat. I'll leave the image and source review on someone else. Good luck with those.--Retrohead (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Krimuk90[edit]

  • Support. I have made some minor corrections, but excellent work overall! Happy to lend my support. Good luck! :) -- KRIMUK90  01:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review[edit]

Starting on image and non-free content review (if any) —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 02:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Courtney Love[edit]

Nominator(s): Scottdoesntknow (talk) 02:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about singer-songwriter Courtney Love of the band Hole, and I believe it has reached Featured Article status; it is well rounded, heavily researched and documented, and I have worked tirelessly at prose and other issues for several years now, and feel that it has come full circle at this point. It appropriately discusses all facets of her career and projects, and has been carefully constructed/edited to evenly cover her duplicitous public career, image, and personal life. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 02:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Driveby comment by Curly Turkey[edit]

  • Yikes! Please see WP:LEADCITE—citations in the lead are discouraged except in special cases. The density of citations especially is a reader-unfriendly eyesore—I recommend reading WP:BUNDLE. Not against the "rules", but&nbso;... ugh! Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Addressed and taken care of. I moved all the appropriate citations out of the lead and into the body of the article alone. I wasn't sure if this was an issue as I don't recall it being brought up during the GA review. I left the citations in the lead however on her date of birth, since it's the main place it is mentioned and because the date has been contended before. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Didier Drogba[edit]

Nominator(s): Davykamanzitalkcontribsalter ego 18:51, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about an Ivorian professional footballer who is at the moment a free agent. He is best known for his career at English Premier League club Chelsea where he won three league titles, four domestic titles and the UEFA Champions League in 2011–12. He is the club's fourth highest scorer of all time, and his country's all-time top goalscorer.

I believe this article should be featured because it provides very detailed information on his entire career, especially at Chelsea and his career with the Ivory Coast national team. His personal life is also well documented. Content is well-referenced and concise, and as of this revision I did not find any disambiguation links. I think this well deserves to be a featured article. Davykamanzitalkcontribsalter ego 18:51, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Dylan Thomas[edit]

Nominator(s): FruitMonkey (talk) 11:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the poet and writer Dylan Thomas. Thomas was well known in Britain and the United States during his lifetime and he is still recognized today. Notable works include "And death shall have no dominion" and "Do not go gentle into that good night" and in the US 'A Child's Christmas in Wales'. A lot of hard work went into getting the article to GA standard and a (limited) peer review was conducted earlier this year. Although time maybe against us I would like to get this to FA standard in the hope of making the front page on 27 October, the centenary of Thomas' birth. FruitMonkey (talk) 11:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Murder of Ross Parker[edit]

Nominator(s): Shakehandsman (talk) 06:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to submit the article on the murder of Ross Parker for FA review. It concerns a murder carried out shortly after the September 11th attacks, in Peterborough, England and the article gets a reasonable amount of interest, even today. Although its my first submission here, I am an experienced editor, I've helped review other submissions and I'm fully aware of the standards required. The article is stable, achieved "Good Article" status over two years ago and there have been considerable improvements and expansion since then so hopefully it isn't too far off. I've put a lot of work into it and have a fairly comprehensive understanding of the case as a result, therefore i should be able to address most queries reasonably swiftly.. Shakehandsman (talk) 06:01, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Drive-by comment from Curly Turkey[edit]

  • It is also suggested the case demonstrates how society has been forced to redefine racism so as to no longer exclude white victims.—Whoa! It's one thing to say that anti-white violence may be downplayed in the media, but I don't think there's ever been a time when racism has been defined to exclude white victims, however a particular editorialist may choose to spin it. An issue so serious is not helped with this kind of hyperbole, and hyperbole has no place in an encyclopaedia. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"I don't think there's ever been a time when racism has been defined to exclude white victims". Well, Wikipedia's article on racism includes the "prejudice plus power" view of racism in its lede as one definition. Combining that definition with the view of some (seemingly including Easton) that even a murdered 5 foot 5, working-class child who works in a bar and has a weak leg was automatically "powerful" simply because of his skin colour, then its clear that white victims could be excluded. Easton's piece is controversial and seems somewhat flawed and I don't really wish to support him, but it is one of the more prominent examinations of the wider aspects of the case, and the idea that event was so significant that it caused a concept to be redefined in some people's minds is extremely important (even if we don't agree with all the arguments used to come to such a conclusion or their assertion that the whole of society subscribed to such a view in the first place). I think the text makes it clear that this argument is only a suggestion and not necessarily a fact, so there's no problem there, though I'm open to suggestions for further tweaks. It would be fantastic to include some analysis of Easton's argument in the body of the article, certainly others have tried to do this in the past, but we don't really have any reliable sources for doing so in the context of the Parker case and therefore I was wary about including material that was too unrelated to the subject at hand. Again, if people have ideas for critiquing of Easton's comments I'd be more than happy to hear them. Anyway, many thanks for being the first to comment on this FAC discussion.--Shakehandsman (talk) 17:35, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"One view holds that racism is best understood as 'prejudice plus power'" is hardly a definition excluding whites from being victims of racism. Think of the treatment of Poles, for example, under the Nazis. Nor is it the only definition: Black supremacy is hardly new, or unknown. Easton's is a particular interpretation of the events; the wording suggests that "racism excluding whites" is an accepted fact, and it's not. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It's actually Easton who cites the "prejudice plus power" definition as mostly excluding white victims in itself. For the record I completely disagree with most of his arguments but at the end of the day, it really isn't up to us to agree or disagree with particular views or dissect them. His analysis is very prominent and significant and we consider the BBC to be a reliable source. We're hardly spoilt for reliable sources for such material concerning Parker, and this makes these important arguments perhaps even more worthy of inclusion still. If his arguments are "wrong" in some way (which may well be the case), then as far as Wikipedia policies are concerned, that's largely irrelevant.--Shakehandsman (talk) 23:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
You're not understanding: of course you quote what Easton said, but you don't present "racism excludes white victims" as an established fact, which is what your wording does. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Well the material in the legacy section had the problem you identify and I actually fixed that just prior to your comment, so thanks for prompting me to look into this. I think the other material concerning Easton is ok and fairly clear, though if there is consensus that it needs tweaking then I'll be happy for a small change to be made.--Shakehandsman (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Health issues in American football[edit]

Nominator(s): Toa Nidhiki05 16:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

As the title suggests, this article is an overview of the health issues that come with playing American football. This article was a collaboration between me and ChrisPond, and just recently passed through a good article review by Wizardman with virtually no issues found. This is a broad overview of the topic - in particular, the article covers injuries (both common and uncommon) that come with playing the sport, the effects these injuries have on athletes post-career, and the measures taken to try and reduce injuries throughout the history of the sport. Standard media sources like newspapers and magazines are used, but many of the sources here are published works that come from reputed scientific/medical journals. In addition to images, there are also several informative tables that are used to demonstrate the statistics of injury in the sport, both internally and in comparison to other sports. In all, I'm confident this meets the featured article criteria. Toa Nidhiki05 16:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:2006_Pro_Bowl_tackle.jpg: source links are dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Future Science Fiction and Science Fiction Stories[edit]

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about two science fiction magazines that have perhaps the most confusing bibliographic history of any magazines I've ever come across. They each bore the name of the other magazine at different points in their lives. The editor, Robert W. Lowndes, at one point suggested that sorting out the bibliographic details was no more confusing than understanding alternate time tracks. Normally I would create a separate article for each of these titles, but in this case I think it makes no sense to try to separate them. Lowndes managed to do wonders with the shoestring budget he was given by the publisher; the magazines never led the field, but were well-liked by their readers. They finally ceased publication in 1960, victims of a magazine distributor who abruptly abandoned the publisher's entire magazine chain. One MoS note: I think the title of the article should, strictly speaking, be "Future Science Fiction and Science Fiction Stories", but I don't think it's possible to create partially italic article titles of that format. If someone knows how to do it, please let me know. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

re title: you can use the DISPLAYTITLE template to modify italics for specific words which I have added. Feel free to revert if that's not what you're looking for. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 01:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
That's exactly what I was hoping could be done. Thanks! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:34, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the multi-page refs only have "p.", they should all be "pp."
  • Missing bibliographic info for Knight 1967, Blish 1967
  • No citations to Atheling 1967, Knight 1974. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
All fixed; thanks for the sharp eyes, as usual. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Harry Glicken[edit]

Nominator(s): ceranthor 19:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

A brilliant guy who just rubbed people the wrong way, Glicken was a first-rate scientist and one strange dude. Besides the first image in the infobox (still searching for its original source), I think this is all set to become an FA. ceranthor 19:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments: I intended to peer-review this, but got caught up with other things. Here are a few initial comments, concerning the lead. I'll add a few more, later.

  • "notably blamed himself" - lose the adverb, per WP:EDITORIAL
  • "...who had switched shifts with Glicken so that he could attend an interview." Presently ambiguous as to who went to the interview. Suggest replace "he" with "the latter"
  • "per his parents' wishes": it would be better to replace the informal shorthand "per" with its actual meaning: "in accordance with".
  • "Despite a long-term interest in working for the United States Geological Survey, Glicken never received a permanent post there because employees found him bizarre". I think "bizarre" is too loaded a word in an encyclopedia article, especially with no further explanation. Perhaps "because of a reputation for eccentricity" or some such.
  • There's a vastly overlong sentence, beginning "Conducting independent research..." that needs subdividing.

More to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 09:14, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Should all be resolved. ceranthor 12:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "in 1980" followed by "In 1980"
  • Over-referencing in first line of "Early work" – 2 citations for his graduation, separate citations for "graduate student" and Univ. of California.
  • "previously dormant" – just "dormant"
  • "He became so distraught that he refused to accept Johnston's death,[4] requiring comfort from Don Swanson to eventually calm down." Kind of clunky. May I suggest: "In his distraught state, Glicken refused to accept Johnston's death, and was comforted by Swanson before calming down".
  • We could do with a few more date indicators: "the summer after the eruption" makes a look back to find the year, and thereafter, zilch in this section
  • Again "who found him bizarre". See my comment above over the use of this word. "Who found his behavioral oddities unsettling" would I think be acceptable.
  • Suggest avoid "...Unzen. Unzen..."
  • I wonder why you've pipe-linked "eruptive activity" in relation to Mt Unzen rather than with the earlier example of Mt St Helens
  • "near the end of May." – year?
  • "the niche grew" – unclear, further explanation required
  • "extremely detailed and comprehensive work" –delete the adverb

Will finish tomorrow Brianboulton (talk) 23:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Think I addressed all the clear-cut ones. Two ones I just want to make sure I took care of:
  1. The dates. In general the dates are hazy for Glicken's research, but he basically spent summer 1980 through 1989 working at St. Helens as far as I can discern. If I need to dig around for more clear dates, feel free to ask me to do so. Did some digging, and found out that the latest source referenced in his report is from 1986. This would imply he was done with all of his research by 1986, but that would be original research unless I can find it elsewhere, I should think.
  2. The niche. I tweaked this to say that research in the niche grew, but essentially this sentence means that volcanic debris avalanches became recognized as a widespread phenomenon and he inspired people to conduct research in such a specialized field.
Thanks for your comments so far! ceranthor 02:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "...was later published in 1996 a single report by his acquaintances..." – is there an "as" missing after 1996? I would actually make this a separate sentence: "It was later published" etc
  • "comprises" rather than "compiles" (reports don't "compile")
  • "painstakingly" – another editorial adverb for the chop
  • "In his work for the report..." Verbose: either delete, or "In the report,..."
  • "Glicken's father, Milton" – no need to name him again
  • "After ... says" does not work. "After ... said". I'm not sure that Dad's words are worth quoting verbatim, though
  • Likewise, "keen" is a commonplace term that shouldn't be in quotes.
  • Conversely, if you are going to use the word "crazy", then this should be in quotes, provided the word is used in the source. If it isn't the word should not be used.
  • The examples of his odd social behavior look out of place in a "Legacy" section. Here's a suggestion: change section title to "Tributes and legacy"; drop the last anecdotal three sentences; move the sentence beginning "Chatty, noted for ..." up so that it becomes the second sentence in the paragraph. Then move the whole paragraph so that it is the first, rather than the last, in the section. That way, the section builds towards a summary of Glicken's achievements and status, rather than ending anti-climactically, with examples of his oddness.
  • Footnote 1: I wonder if it is worth including a footnote to highlight such a small difference in the death toll between the two sources? I think I'd just say 42 or 43 in the text, and cite both sources.

This is an engaging account of the short life of someone who clearly made an impressive contribution to volcanology – a subject of which I have no knowledge, but the necessary technical detail is clearly explained. Once my remaining concerns are addressed, I see no barriers to the article's promotion. Brianboulton (talk) 08:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

I think I've taken care of these all appropriately. I replaced crazy with a quote, which refers to him as a nut. Thanks so much for all your help, Brian! ceranthor 21:43, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Sources review
  • Ref 11: the titlein the ref does not mach the title in the source. Is the link to the right article?
  • Ref 33: appears to link to an unrelated article
  • Be consistent in including publisher locations in source book descriptions.

Otherwise all sources look of appropraite quality, are properly formatted, and all links are working. Brianboulton (talk) 22:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Support subject to the sources fixes mentioned above. I have not checked images. Brianboulton (talk) 22:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Should all be fixed. I replaced the USGS ref with the newly-linked GVP page. I hope you don't mind that I changed your header to a ; style heading. Thanks so much for your input and support, Brian. ceranthor 23:16, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Secret of Mana[edit]

Nominator(s): PresN 19:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

When you think of the best 16-bit RPGs ever made, 1993's Secret of Mana is assuredly on the list, up there with Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, and EarthBound. Heck, according to GameRankings, it's one of the best SNES games ever made in any genre. And now, it's available to you for your reviewing pleasure! The article has been fairly solid for a long time—it's a well-known game, after all—but in January I pushed through, rewrote almost all of it, and got it up to GA level. After sitting on it for a few months, I'm still pretty pleased with the way it turned out, and I think it can go all the way. Early-90's games can be hard to source, as the games journalism (cough) field was small and mainly offline, and this game got a surprisingly small marketing push in America for how much it sold in Japan (it's the 21st best-selling SNES game ever, but 80%+ of the sales were in Japan), but I think I've hoovered up everything that could be found and made a pretty nice article. Feel free to explain to me exactly how I'm terribly wrong, or to shock me with easy supports. In any case, thanks for reviewing! --PresN 19:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tezero[edit]

Hey, I fielded this page's GAN! Nice to see you've gone a bit further with it; I'll put down some comments later today. Tezero (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC) Alright, here I go. Just a warning; I'm gonna be more stringent with the prose than I was at GAN:

  • The intro's a bit long considering the size of the article; Reception/Legacy in particular is given a lot of real estate. It could stand at two-thirds its current size and be just fine.
  • "the hero, the girl, and the sprite" - Popoi and Primm should be named.
  • "Flammie, a miniature dragon which is controlled by the player and able to fly freely across the world, represented by an overworld map" - Minor question, but is Flammie's gender given?
  • "In an unspecified time period" - A little wordy; I'd prefer "Sometime".
  • "The three main characters do not have names in the original SNES release" - Does the player pick their names?
  • "scamming people at the dwarves' freak show" - This is phrased as though this show is referenced earlier, but the reader knows nothing about it. At the very least, go like "a freak show held by dwarves".
  • "as well as with her father for setting her up for an arranged marriage" - With whom?
  • "Mana Sword, and" - Shouldn't be a comma here.
  • "amnesiac sprite child" - What does he remember back to?
  • "Over time, however, Thanatos narrows his selection to Dyluck" - Does it say elsewhere in the game why he picks Dyluck? If not, why is this an "over time" process?
  • What does the Mana Beast look like?
  • How does it reveal itself?

I'll be back for Development and onward later. Tezero (talk) 01:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Replying here instead of inline.
  • I don't know why FAC has decided in the past few months that we should all move to 2-paragraph intros, but I disagree- right now game release info, plot, gameplay, development, reception, and legacy get like 1-2 sentences each; any further cut down and I'd be skipping sections. I've done intros this long for much shorter FAs.
  • Done
  • Flammie's male, but it's never relevant beyond that pronouns need to be gendered in English, and I don't see a good way to integrate it into the sentence.
  • Done.
  • Yes, added.
  • Fixed; sorry, characters was clawed out of a lengthier plot section.
  • Done.
  • Done.
  • Video game amnesia, not real amnesia, so all of it, even though he obviously knows language and stuff. The quote is "This child received such a shock from drifting here, it lost all its memories." - It's included in the cited quotes.
  • Reworded it; the relevant quote is "For ages I have been searching...for a human with the power to conquer this world... born in the shadow of darkness, and raised in the light of Mana. Dyluck is the one. I cannot wait any longer. My body has grown weak! It is time! Using his body I will take the Mana Fortress, and rule the world!"
  • Renamed creature to dragon; it looks kinda similar to Flammie, but a lot bigger, more monstrous, and less friendly
  • Reworded to "flies in"; it just kinda... shows up. Flies up to the party from below the screen.
@Tezero: alright, responded to everything you've posted so far. --PresN 23:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "The real-time battle system used in Secret of Mana is described" - Minor, but perhaps this should be "has been described". It's not a recent description, and perhaps one or more of the creators will die before too long.
  • "a lack of sequential text" - ???
  • "Other Western localizations were done to German and French" - Is "to" the right pronoun, and is "Western" necessary?
  • "Kikuta was originally chosen for Secret of Mana after Kenji Ito, who had composed the soundtrack for Final Fantasy Adventure and was originally slated for the project, was forced to drop it due to other demands on his time such as the soundtrack to Romancing SaGa." - Not awful, but kind of a run-on.
  • "to create an immersive three-dimensional sound" - clarify
  • " Rather than use premade MIDI samples of instruments like most game music composers of the time, Kikuta made his own MIDI samples that matched the hardware capabilities of the SNES so that he would know exactly how the pieces would sound on the system's hardware instead of having to deal with audio hardware differences between the original MIDI sampler and the SNES." - Also quite a dinosaur-bite, as my dad would say.
  • "covers both "ominous" and "light-hearted" tracks" - I'd prefer "includes", or switch "tracks" to "themes".
  • "The title track to the game, "Fear of the Heavens", was designed by Kikuta to sync up with the title screen as it slowly faded in due to hardware limitations; at the time trying to match the audio and visual effects in a game was rare." - Hardware limitations? This seems contradictory. Did he succeed in innovating or not?
  • "Secret of Mana was one of the first soundtrack releases in North America for the North American version of a Japanese game" - Had North American adaptations of Japanese games received soundtrack releases elsewhere? If not, strike "in North America".
  • "with the catalog number N25D-019"/"catalog numbers PSCN-5030 and NTCP-5030" - Relevance?
  • Actually... Given how droning and repetitive the text in this paragraph is - which is, to a large extent, not your fault - it might work better as a bulleted list.
  • "Secret of Mana shipped 1.83 million copies worldwide" - should be "had shipped" or "has shipped"
  • "were also highly reviewed" - There could easily be more releases, so I'd prefer "have also been highly reviewed".
  • Why is Re-releases part of Reception, especially when they're discussed earlier? I'd put it in Development.
  • Not a strict objection, but why is the image of Flammie flying a GIF? It doesn't move.

Everything else looks fine, I'd say. Tezero (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Done
  • Moved down and reworded
  • Dropped Western and changed to into
  • Split
  • Reworked a bit, though those word choices were Kikuta's
  • Split
  • changed to includes
  • reworded
  • done
  • Removed
  • I'll see what I can do, but embedded lists are rarely the answer.
  • Done
  • Done
  • Done
  • Don't know, that's just what the original image was, and I left it in the article. GIFs don't need to be animated, by the way, that's not their only purpose, though PNG might be better for this image since there aren't large color blocks.
--PresN 20:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support, then. Interesting about GIFs, that; I did not know that. Tezero (talk) 05:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Mr. Gonna Change My Name Forever[edit]

Can you expand the "legacy" part of the article? }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 03:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Not really; if I had sources to do so I would have, but I don't. That's the problem with games from the early 90s that weren't that popular in America as compared to Japan, and whose series kinda faded out outside of Japan- Seiken 3 never got released in English, and Seiken 4 (Legend of Mana) was the last one to do well at all. --PresN 23:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Frédéric Chopin[edit]

Nominator(s): Smerus (talk) 17:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the composer and pianist Frédéric Chopin. The subject is listed as a level 3 vital article; although the article has been subject to some alarums and excursions in the past it has now been stable for quite some while. The peer review has been supportive and constructive, and I am grateful to those who participated. Now that the suggestions of reviewers have been generally adopted, (and reasons offered in the few cases where they where not), I believe it to be at, or very close, to FA status. I look forward to comments. Thanks, - Smerus (talk) 17:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Support A very well researched and engaging article. All my comments were well addressed at the PR. --Stfg (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support: I, too, was active at the peer review stage, during which the article was pretty thoroughly worked over. A couple of final quibbles:
  • There are a few uncited statements at the ends of paragraphs. See, for example "Death and funeral", 2nd paragraph: "Later that morning, Solange's husband Clésinger made Chopin's death mask and a cast of his left hand." In the Music section the first "Overview" para is uncited, as is the last part of the final Overview paragraph. There are a few other instances; in some cases it may be more a case of adjusting the position of the citation rather than adding a new one.
  • A suggestion: short quotations, e.g. Liszt's remark in the "Franz Liszt" section, are best kept within the main prose, rather than as blockquotes. Short blockquotes give the prose an unnecessarily fragmented appearance, especially when there are two close together, as in the "Technique and performance style" section.

These are small matters. I have no hesitation in supporting the article's promotion to FAC, subject to the usual source and image clearances. An excellent composer biography. Brianboulton (talk) 19:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Brian. I think I have now dealt with the points you mention.--Smerus (talk) 08:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Support Comments. A fine article; I also commented at the peer review. Reading through again I see a couple of minor points:

  • "Even in early childhood, Chopin was of slight build and prone to illnesses": perhaps "Chopin was of slight build, and even in early childhood was prone to illnesses"? I don't think his build should be in the scope of "even" here.
  • "It quickly became apparent that he was a child prodigy, and by the age of seven Fryderyk had begun giving public concerts, and in 1817 he composed two polonaises, in G minor and B-flat major": two consecutive "and" conjunctions in one sentence. I think a full stop after "prodigy" and then "By the age..." might be better.
  • On re-reading I realize that you don't mention whether he was raised speaking French; it's apparent later in the article that he could speak it, but preferred Polish. If he was raised to be bilingual perhaps that could be mentioned in either the "Childhood" or "Education" sections.Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • "where, for the last time in his life, he met his parents": you have "met" three times in quick succession here, and in any case "met" has the wrong connotations for a visit to his parents. How about "where he spent time with his parents; it was the last time he would see them"?
  • I think Arthur Hedley should be identified when his opinion is given: "Musicologist Arthur Hedley". (I don't think this sort of attributive description is necessary everywhere -- for example, in the Polish heritage section, you introduce a paragraph with "Some modern commentators", which serves to characterize each of the writers you then quote; and in the Form and harmony section I think there is sufficient implication that the opinions are from musicologists or historians of music.) Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • "But they also require a formidable playing technique": The "But" seems unnecessary to me.
  • Attributing an opinion to "Grove Music Online" in the text of the article seems odd -- wouldn't it be better to give the names of the authors of that article? E.g "musicologists Michałowski and Samson"?

All very minor points in a very impressive article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have responded to many, but not yet all, of your comments in the article text. I'm now away for a few days, so intend to catch up on these and any other comments on my return.--Smerus (talk) 10:15, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I've struck the points you've dealt with and switched to support above; the two remaining points are very minor and it would not affect my support if you don't agree. It's great to see such an important article make it to this level of quality. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:57, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. I had one minor query about the comprehensiveness of the literature consulted, but on second thoughts that's just nitpicking that wouldn't have stopped me from supporting anyway. Excellent article. And thank you, because it is an important one. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Gerda[edit]

Impressive, written with knowledge and enthiusiasm! Some minor points for consideration (I will not mention my major one again, it's on the article talk), and more may come up once I have more time:


  • "He gained and has maintained renown worldwide as one of the leading musicians of his era" seems needlessly complicated. I doubt that we can say "He maintained" of a dead person. No, this is perfectly OK English usage
  • "Chopin was born in what was then the Duchy of Warsaw, and grew up in Warsaw, which after 1815 became part of Congress Poland." Consider to just say "Chopin grew up in Warsaw." and leave the rest of politics to the article. We want to get to music! I believe this is necessary as there has been much discussion on precise description of his origins.
  • "During the last 18 years of his life, ..." - A reader who forgot his year of death may not realize that there is no break in the chronology.Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • How about songs to Polish lyrics? I would not click "song" otherwise, thinking that I know what a song is. Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • insurrection? - I didn't know the word, but you don't have to adjust your style to people limited in language who would profit from a you-know-what.This is perfectly OK English usage


  • "Chopin was of slight build, and even in early childhood was prone to illnesses." - "even in early childhood"? how about something like "already in early childhood"? This is perfectly OK English usage


  • "and on this instrument in May 1825 he performed his own improvisation" - long time until a verb appears, almost German This is perfectly OK English usage
  • "the Leipzig Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung praised his "wealth of musical ideas"" - the paper certainly wrote not in English Gerda, this seems a quite superfluous comment - the quote is cited - we don't give every quotation in the orginal language - this is English WP, so it would be pointless to give the original German'
@Smerus: I was wondering if Gerda was referring to the fact that, as those are not the exact words but a translation, the quotes are unnecessary (i.e. the translation serves as paraphrasing). Just a thought. --Stfg (talk) 09:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
@Stfg:, if so do we have to somehow rework Chopin writing "It should be like dreaming in beautiful springtime – by moonlight", and "O God! ... You are there, and yet you do not take vengeance!", or Fétis writing "Here is a young man who ... taking no model, has found, if not a complete renewal of piano music, ... an abundance of original ideas of a kind to be found nowhere else ...", etc. etc. etc.? If you remove the quotation marks from "wealth of musical ideas", you make the phrase look like a rewording - actually it is a translation representing the exact words used (as are the Chopin and Fetis quotes I have cited in this comment and which are used in the article). The original text is "ein Reichtum musikalischer Ideen", exactly equivalent to the translation and not a paraphrase; and for this reason I believe it is best left as is.--Smerus (talk) 10:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
@Smerus: good point. Fair enough. --Stfg (talk) 10:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Why "Piano Concerto no. 1? vs. No. 1 Now dealt with 27.7.14.

So far for now, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:45, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Travel ...

  • I am oldfashioned regarding imagelocation and dislike images left under a header. We don't yet know who the Radziwills are, and it's too small to show. Radziwill is linked immediately to the right of the picture, i.e. in the3 same paragraph where the pic is located, but I have added a link in the picture caption for those who can't be bothered to read the text. Your own predilections for picture positioning (with which by the way I disagree) are not I think a criterion for FA.
  • He premieres the piano concerto, - do we know anything about the composition process? This article is about Chopin, not the detailed processes of composition of his works. I know of nothing particularly interesting to add here - in any case the concerto is one of his least original works, as the article mentions.


  • The image of Maria appears well before her mentioning in the text. I disagree; she is in the second para on the right of the picture, which starts within the picture area. To move the pic to the top of the para referring to her would involve disrupting the next section which would be contrary to FA criteria. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of my comments. I am sorry that I missed the PR, questions are just questions, they don't question the FA quality. I guess that the reactions of a non-native speaker might be of interest. - For the following, a simple "English" will tell me "This is perfectly OK English usage." - Image placement is not "my own" but as it was recommended until quite recently, and still makes sense to me. I will not repeat that for the images in "Music". All questions above are resolved but one:

  • Back to the newspaper: "the Leipzig Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung praised his "wealth of musical ideas"" - the paper certainly wrote not in English, I would prefer it without a quote, "the Leipzig Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung praised his wealth of musical ideas". @Gerda Arendt:, I disagree strongly with your preference here - see my comments re Sftg's note on this for my more detailed reasoning and justification.
accepted, I forgot that you might have trouble with copyvio ;)
  • In Music: Maurice Schlesinger and similar, - I would consider to link them again, for readers who jump there without reading the biography. Different readers have different interests. I have some sympathy with this, but then some other editor will complain about overlinking - I have had this problem before when articles are up for promotion. Safer to leave as is, perhaps? If there are any other editors with opinions on this, I would be glad to hear from them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I can see readers being interested just in music, and I have seen new linking in a major paragraph of longer FA articles, such as BWV 172 where the instruments are linked in the lead, the infobox and the scoring section. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
OK I will look through and link some of the more recherché characters.--Smerus (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
now done!--Smerus (talk) 12:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
I found it once and removed it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • File:Frederic_Chopin_photo.jpeg: what is the copyright status of the original unrestored image? Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:CHopin_SIgnature.svg: bluntly, nothing on the image description page is right Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:Mikołaj_Chopin.jpg: artist's date of death? Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:Franz_Liszt_by_Herman_Biow-_1843.png: source link is dead, needs US PD tag Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:Chopinamqsop53.jpg: possible to include a more specific source? 'Private collection' means just that , i.e. collection/collector not revealed to public. This is a standard form of reference in academic works etc. where the owner does not wish to be made public.
  • Sound files should include licensing tag for original composition (all PD by now) as well as the performance Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:Op_62-1ms.jpg needs US PD tag Now dealt with 27.7.14.
  • File:Pere-Lachaise_Chopin_grave.jpg: as France does not have freedom of panorama, we need to include a licensing tag for the monument itself as well as the photo. Now dealt with 27.7.14. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Mike Christie, Gerda Arendt and Nikkimaria, I think I have now dealt with all outstanding comments (see notes in red following comments)--Smerus (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Kedok Ketawa[edit]

Nominator(s):  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about Union Films' first production, The Laughing Mask. Although modern sources don't have a plot summary (see Biran [2009] and the Indonesian Film Catalogue), I was lucky enough to find a review which went into some detail on the story. This is easily the most complete source on this likely lost film, in any language. I hope you enjoy the article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Image is appropriately captioned. Licensing is fine as-is, but it's nearly at the PD-text level. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:43, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Singora

Not a bad article! It's interesting, but the prose could be spiced up a bit.

1. The first paragraph in the lede introduces us to four actors who are unknown and destined to remain so. I don't believe these guys are so central to the article that they warrant inclusion in this prime piece of Wiki real estate.
2. The clause "The first production of Union Films" is awkward.
3. The final sentence in the lede tells us that the film is likely lost. Note the word "likely".
4. PLOT. This: "a rich man is interested in taking Minarsih to be his wife". The prose strikes me as rather childlike.
5. PLOT. "Basuki is unable to fight them back, but he is soon joined by the a masked vigilante".
5.1 Basuki + a redundant "he".
5.2. Is it "the masked vigilante" or "a masked vigilante"?
6. PLOT. "Basuki and Minarsih can live together in peace". Is that it? Nothing else?
7. PRODUCTION. "Fatimah and Basoeki were nobles with relatively extensive educations". What's an extensive education? Why not show rather than tell?
8. RELEASE AND RECEPTION. In the second paragraph you use the verb "praise" three times in just four sentences. How about "laud" or "commend" or "commented positively on"?
9. LEGACY. In paragraph two you talk again about how the film is "likely" lost and observe that "visual anthropologist Karl G. Heider suggests that all Indonesian films from before 1950 are lost". No. Mr Heider writes that movies made before 1950 have been lost. He's not suggesting anything, nor is he talking about probabilities. I think you should contrast Heider's claim with a while construction:
9.1 While American visual anthropologist Karl G. Heider has written that all Indonesian films from before 1950 are lost, J.B. Kristanto's Katalog Film Indonesia records several as having survived at Sinematek Indonesia's archives. Furthermore, film historian Misbach Yusa Biran notes that several Japanese propaganda films have survived at the Netherlands Government Information Service. (Note: you don't need definite articles when introducing Heider and Biran.)
9.2. So in whose opinion is the movie "likely" lost? Are you sure this isn't simply your own opinion?
10. See this URL for Heider's book: It points directly to page 14. Use this instead of the URL you've currently got.

Good luck!!

Singora (talk) 09:09, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the review, glad to see you're back at FAC. Replies follow:
  • 1: Of the four, Basoeki Resobowo is probably the only one likely to get an article (though that would mostly be for his work as an artist and not his acting). But since WP:REDLINK is against RL-ing biographies, I haven't done so. As for removing the names entirely, that wouldn't fly. I'd consider removing Eddy Kock, since his is the only role not explicit in the plot summary that has surfaced... but wholesale removal would go against expectations for a film. If this was something like Eulis Atjih, in which the actors names aren't even known, sure... but not for something with a definite cast.
  • 2: Reworked.
  • 3: See reply below.
  • 4: Reworked a little bit. The source doesn't go into any more detail, sadly.
  • 5: Nixed "he". I think from a purely grammatical POV both are acceptable, but I feel as though "a" is more natural.
  • 6: That's where the review stops. As I mentioned in my nomination statement, that's already more than any source I've seen since.
  • 7: In the source, Fatimah is only said to be "educated", while Basoeki is confirmed to have graduated from AMS (equivalent to senior high school). I've removed "relatively" and added a footnote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:38, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • 8: Now only one.
  • 9: The direct quote is "films made before 1950 have been lost and the few films preserved from the 1950s are rarely seen". The contrast between the unqualified "films made before 1950" and "the few films preserved from the 1950s" suggests that there is an implied "all" in that sentence. I'm not the only one with this reading of Heider's text, see Jean Gelman Taylor's article in Fantasizing the Feminine in Indonesia. As for the second point, I've changed to "may" rather than "likely", as in the historical context the possibility is far too likely to simply ignore it and remove the paragraph (and thus imply that the film is still extant). Sadly, there are no sources that say explicitly that it is lost, which would make my job a lot easier. I think the only Indies film which sources explicitly state to be lost is Terang Boelan. To be honest, I think "likely" is still defensible, as the proportion of films which we can verify have survived (through Kristanto's catalogue, or elsewhere such as in Sinematek's inventory [which I have a copy of, although it's technically unpublished]) is considerably lower than the number which we cannot verify.
  • 10: I prefer not pointing to single pages using Google Books, as it keeps it simpler and easier to read. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

More comments from Singora

1. RE: "Union Films' first production, it was directed by Jo An Djan and starred Oedjang, Fatimah, and Basoeki Resobowo". Isn't this a non-sequitur?
1.1. How about "The movie was Union Films' first production and directed by Jo An Djan; it starred Oedjang, Fatimah, and Basoeki Resobowo"?
2. RE: "The film follows a young couple who face off against criminals". Is "face off" truly encyclopedic?
3. RE: "Basuki is unable to fight them back, but is soon joined by the a masked vigilante". What's wrong with this?
4. RE: "emphasising the quality of its cinematography and acting". I like that! Much better.
5. RE: "may now be lost". This still strikes me as bordering on original research. It's your opinion: it's a conclusion you've drawn from the sources.
6. RE: Google Books. Why does not pointing to the page you're referring to keep things "simpler and easier to read"? Why should I (your intended audience) have to search the book to find the passage you're quoting?
7. RE: anarthrous nominal premodifiers. Wow! That is vastly superior pretentiousness!

PS. Do you need the full stop after "sweet romance"?

As I said before, it's a good article. I guess you now need a few more guys to come along and give opinions and feedback.

Singora (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

    • 1. Tried reworking in a way which avoids "movie".
    • 2. Have gone with "fight off"
    • 3. It hasn't won a Pulitzer? (fixed by removing "the")
    • 4. Thanks!
    • 5. Short of a complete (or, relatively complete, considering how documentation from Indonesia ends up in the weirdest places... I recall hearing that a nearly complete collection of the first 10 years of Soeara Moehammadijah was in... Chicago, of all places) inventory of what films are now extant (none existent, as far as I've seen; to make one as a journal article would be on my to do list if I could find a backer, since such an endeavour would mean the Netherlands, Jakarta, and Japan, at the very least, and probably Singapore) there appears to be little chance of a solid "yes" or "no" either way. I believe the sources support a "may" or "might", and that implying that the film is still extent by omitting such information would be a poor overview of sources. I would welcome any way of phrasing this that does not violate your understanding of OR, but I cannot abide by wholesale removal. Perhaps something like "JB Kristanto's Indonesian Film Catalogue does not record the film being held at Sinematek Indonesia", but then people would ask "so what?".
    • 6. At the code level, it's simpler and takes up less space. It is also less likely to confuse people if the book is not previewable in their area (as Google sets it by location... there are a lot of full view books that I can't access from Indonesia), since they shouldn't expect to go straight to a page.
    • 7. I agree, a little, but if that's the preferred form in BrE (and style guides support it) I guess that's how it must be for formal writing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments to follow a.s.a.p. – If (said he, peering censoriously over the top of his reading glasses) the mention of the undersigned was merely to point out what a prim and proper native English writer would write, I shall be dishing out 100 lines for your impertinence. If, on the other hand, as I strongly suspect, it was a crafty ploy to get me to join this review it has succeeded admirably. Give me till tomorrow, please, and I'll review and pitch in here. Tim riley talk 19:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank ye, oh great and fair school master of the three Wikis — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Support. On first looking at it I was rather taken aback at the brevity of the article, but having read it carefully I can't think what more could usefully be said. The text is clear, the sourcing is thorough and broad, and I imagine in the circumstances described in the article that it is as well illustrated as it could possibly be. If we're playing the false title game, there is one at "While American visual anthropologist Karl G. Heider", but we shan't fall out over that. The lead is short, but then so is the article, and it would be foolish to pad the lead out just to meet WP norms. As far as I can see this page meets the FA criteria, and I see no reason to oppose. Tim riley talk 15:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank you for the review. Blast! One lousy mistake away from no comments! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

More from Singora -- the Dracuala connection

1. See this link
2. I'm searching Google books for Kedok Ketawa dracula
3. See what comes up ..............
4. East-West Film Journal - Volume 6, Issue 2 - Page 102: This lesson was applied religiously until the arrival of the Japanese army in 1942: Tar- zan became Alang-Alang and Dracula became Kedok Ketawa and Tengkorak Hidup. This tradition is still part of Indonesia's film business culture.
5. Malaysian Films: The Beginning: The influence of Dracula films was seen in the birth of Kedok Ketawa or Topeng Ketawa produced by the Union Film Company in 1940 which was considered to have vastly improved in terms of quality and, hence, went down well with the ...
6. Shadows on the silver screen: Kedok Ketawa (The Laughing Mask) were mere imitations of Dracula films which were in circulation before the beginning of the Japanese occupation in 1942.

Your article claims the film "may" have been influenced by Dracula. Singora (talk) 04:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Alright, these sources are a bit more affirmative than the one I'd cited. I'll see if I can get the full article of the East-West Film Journal at WP:RX, as that connects it to the cultural context. Thanks for the link. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:23, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Worked in, although I've also left a note that neither of these sources "show" and not "tell". Said note may be made a footnote if you think it's distracting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Support: Nicely put together, well-supported and no issues that I could see. - SchroCat (talk) 19:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank you for the review, Schro! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

AI Mk. IV radar[edit]

Nominator(s): Maury Markowitz (talk) 02:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

The AI Mk. IV was the world's first air-to-air radar, if existing histories are complete (one would hope after almost a century). Although not a tremendous success, it filled an important gap in coverage during critical periods of the war, and perhaps more importantly, acted as the basis for many other very successful radar systems like the ASV and Type 7. It's also a story complete with infighting, backstabbing, rushed moves, incompetence and lucky breaks.

This article was created offline over a three month period, so it appears ex nihlo largely complete. With the exception of some GR and SP, and some ongoing work sourcing additional images and switching cites (I'm using original authors where possible, as opposed to newer sources), the article should be largely complete and stable.

I think it's a fascinating bit of history, and I hope you will to.

Maury Markowitz (talk) 02:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


  • Several captions need editing for grammar, particularly punctuation
  • File:Handley_Page_Heyford.jpg: source link is dead
  • File:Fairey_Battle_ExCC.jpg: approximate date?
  • File:Hugh_Dowding.jpg: date link is redirecting
  • File:Original_cavity_magnetron,_1940_(9663811280).jpg: source link is redirecting
  • File:AI_Mk_IV_simulated_display.jpg: not seeing licensing info at source link - where does the CC license come from? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Which captions need editing? As to the sourcing I can only speak to the last one, it's filed with ORTS and we're just waiting for it to get stamped as such. As to the rest, as they are all clearly in PD, do we need to fix any of these issues? If so, is that my job or the up loaders? I'm not sure how this is supposed to work. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we need to be able to verify that the information given is correct if you're going to be using those images in a potential FA. Captions in particular need of editing include RDF 1.5, ASV emerges, Baedeker Blitz, and Displays and interpretation. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I read over the captions you mentioned above, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with them. Can you be very specific, or simply fix them? Maury Markowitz (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
All images have been replaced with sourced versions. Maury Markowitz (talk) 00:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Jamesx12345

  • Refs 85, 93 and 95 don't point to anything at the moment.
  • "shot up" - this sounds like a bad pun. "Increased rapidly" might be more appropriate.
  • "The Mk. IV began being replaced at the end of 1941 by the prototype Mk. VII" - "The prototype Mk. VII began to replace the Mk. IV at the end of 1941"
  • "could only be expected to" - was this the designers' assessment, and does the inaccuracy result from this delay or something else? A reference for this statement would be nice.
I got all of these except one. The last one is interesting - if you found the wording difficult, perhaps you can come up with another way to say it. The basic idea is that each of the reporting systems -huff-duff, CH and ROC- had slightly different *in*accuracies so if you plotted the reports on a map you didn't get a single point but three separated ones. Additionally, the target aircraft were moving throughout this process. So unless you have zero reporting times, by the time you get the instructions to the fighter pilot the target is long gone. The intercept officers were trained to estimate the future location of the target based on interpolating the movement of the reports, but this was based on old and conflicting information. All of this added up. Do you think I should expand this section? Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Hey James, I found some discussion of the accuracy issue in Bowen's book, which you can see on Google Books - at least it's visible to me, who knows what they'll let you see! I added two relevant mentions from that book, let me know if you think the statement is OK to go now. Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
That's perfect - it reads more nicely as well. Jamesx12345 21:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "forefathers" - "predecessors"
  • "arranged before they reached" - "arranged before the bombers reached" - bit clearer
  • "the first definition of the technical" - I think criteria might be a better word.
  • "was not available, at least not in portable form" - "was not available in portable form"
  • Daventry Experiment can be linked.
  • "...radar systems at this period of the war." - is it a war yet?
  • "further increase in power to as much as 2 kW" - is that peak or continual?
All in James! Maury Markowitz (talk) 15:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments on the first two paragraphs. - Dank (push to talk)

  • Hi Maury, welcome to FAC.
  • "was the ultimate model": I know you mean "final", but the other meanings (best, defining, etc.) are more common, and some readers don't get the "final" meaning at all.
  • "First considered in 1936,": I don't actually know what that means. Did someone think it would be a nice thing to have? Did they do some pencil sketches? Did they build a prototype?
  • "rushed moves and three abandoned production designs": Does the "rushed moves" mean something other than rushing three designs into production and then abandoning them?
  • "offered detection ranges against large aircraft on the order of 20,000 feet": Reading quickly, I saw one test at exactly 20,000 feet ... what was the variation in this (at sufficient altitude), roughly?
  • " It used two cathode ray tubes (CRTs) for display and considerable effort was required on the part of the radar operator to translate these into instructions for the pilot.": Not a major point, go with this if it works for you: "Considerable effort was required of the radar operator to interpret the displays of its two cathode ray tubes (CRTs) for the pilot." - Dank (push to talk) 23:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi Dank, I've added all of these. And yes, that definitely worked for me :-) Detection ranges were given 18 to 20k feet against German bombers, which may be simply due to differences in sizes of the different bombers - I assume a Do 17 is harder to see than a He 111. Maury Markowitz (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I've also made a few edits to the lede to help clarify the "rushed moves" bit. See if that is better. Maury Markowitz (talk) 11:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)


  • Please provide a conversion for metric wavelengths for US readers on first use, and any other metric only measurements as well.
  • Expand the abbreviation of RDF on first use.
  • A Ford what? Motor car or Trimotor?
  • Link igition coil, RAF squadrons and be sure to capitalize Squadron if giving the squadron number,
  • revive RDF 1.5 concept "the" RDF
  • Tell the reader that W is an abbreviation for watt. Furthermore, watt isn't normally capitalized. Same for other electrial units like volts, etc.
  • Fix your overlinks.
  • Just like you do for ships, you need to tell the reader what kind of aircraft they are.
  • You give the impression that the Blen conversions were done to make them more suitable for the night fighter role. This is not the case, they were done to give the RAF long-range fighters. Happily their extra endurance and size made them suitable for the NF role. So rephrase that bit to explain that properly. In every aircraft-oriented source I've got the terminal letter in RAF designations is capitalized, not lower case.
  • No. 25 what? Squadron? Done through operation use. More later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
All of the sources I used refer to this radar as a "1.5 meter" in "class terms". That includes US sources from this era. I do not use the term to indicate an exact measure, that is 193 MHz.
I don't know what Ford, the source simply says "Ford ignition coil".
I don't understand. "RDF 1.5" is a name for a class of devices, shouldn't it be read with a "the" in front, like "the dishwasher"?
Which over links? Is there a tool for finding them?
Sorry, I don't understand which aircraft you mean.
Do you have a source for this? I know that the Blenheim article states this, but it is not references, and both Brown and Bowen have passages that suggest the opposite. The same is true for the lower-case "f", which is found throughout Bowen, Brown, Lovell and others. I will add a note about this.
I found one instance. Any others?
Maury Markowitz (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Sonic: After the Sequel[edit]

Nominator(s): Tezero (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

My last FAC met a rare and gruesome end. Due to the greater depth of the sources available, this one is unlikely to follow it, and I've fixed it up a bunch since its GAN, mostly through helpful comments made at its peer review, so here it is.

Anyway, if you pay attention to the gaming world, you're probably aware that most Sonic the Hedgehog games from the mid-2000s onward have not been well-received. At all. Gaming articles abound in lamentation of how Sega can't just let its furred children die, but one Brazilian fan disagreed. He's enjoyed near-every odd detour the series has taken, and over a couple of years, he combined musical and thematic elements of later Sonics with the familiar gameplay and graphics of the Genesis titles and weird, Newgrounds-style cutscene animations to make a highly developed and polished trilogy. The second such game, which you see here, has for some reason received the most attention from critics, but all three have been acclaimed. Here I stand in hope that its article will receive similar praise. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Crisco 1492[edit]

  • Coulda sworn I already had for LakeFeperd, but done. Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • If Sonic: Before the Sequel is notable, consider redlinking it.
  • I don't think it's likely to be. For some reason, there's coverage on After the Sequel and the trilogy as a whole, but little to none on Before the Sequel or Chrono Adventure. Probably has to do with After the Sequel piggybacking on Before's mild popularity while improving on it, and Chrono Adventure just being too weird. (It's a time-travel Metroidvania with lengthy cutscenes.) Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It's kind of inconvenient that the "n.a." shows up by default since it doesn't give you the option to fill those in originally... Anyway, done. I think. Tezero (talk) 15:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Consider finding a way to work the links from #See also into the text, or at least giving a short reason why they are included (per MOS:SEEALSO).
  • One composer from Sonic 3 emailed one of the After the Sequel musicians. - And?
  • The source doesn't say what happened next. This actually came up at GAN; I wanted to say something like "it is not known what happened next", but even that pittance was deemed to be OR. Tezero (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think I could support this passing FAC with such an obvious question still hanging. I'll try and help find something. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • If nothing ever came out of this, and if nothing even talks about the contents of the email (it could just be "good job!", after all), I would seriously consider eliminating this sentence. Although you could mention Sega's previous litigation as context (and to complete the paragraph) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I count seven references, excluding primary sources. Are you sure this is a comprehensive review of the literature on this subject?
  • I'll give a more detailed prose review once this is done.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Still concerned about two issues. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It is an unofficial work in the Sonic the Hedgehog series - This implies that the game is canon, which it decidedly is not. "Set in the Sonic the Hedgehog universe" or something, maybe?
  • Reworded. Tezero (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Sega Genesis Sonic games - First, WP:SEAOFBLUE suggests separating those two links. Second, to differentiate between Sonic 1, the series, and the character, I'd change the link to "Sonic games"
  • with each zone divided into three acts followed by a boss fight with Doctor Eggman. - how exactly does the quote support this?
  • By listing the composer for each act. Or is this about Eggman being the boss? Tezero (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • zone, - I'd have expected this link in the gameplay section
  • Unlike many longtime Sonic fans, Daneluz remained supportive of the series through its "dark age" in the mid to late 2000s and enjoyed games such as Sonic Riders. - might want to discuss, just a little, how negative reception of those games has been, for people who don't follow VGs.
  • I listed the meager GameRankings scores Riders got for context; it might be straying too much from the focus (as well as OR) to list those of, say, '06, Shadow, Genesis, Black Knight, or those others with particularly poor reviews. Tezero (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Hmm... what about as a footnote? Personally, I think a bit of context is necessary to get the point the sources are making across. Regular readers of the sources may have an idea of exactly how terribly recent Sonic games have been received, and thus the sources you have are not explicit, but our average readers probably don't know. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • What I've done is list the GameRankings scores of all Sonic games released during 2006, likely the critical nadir of his career, in a footnote. Tezero (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Don't think you've linked to the games proper in the article text (only in the lede). Consider doing so.
  • "Games proper"? I link to Sonic 2 and 3 in the body, specifically in Plot; what others should I? Tezero (talk) 15:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Alright, then I misremembered. Thanks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • OH. No, you were right; I hadn't linked to Sonic 1 in the body text. Just fixed that. And I'll look for an Eggman citation, though it seems obvious and I don't expect it will be difficult to find... Tezero (talk) 15:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • MaxieDaMan - And this is who, exactly?
  • Again, the lack of a CAD notice might require background for the average reader; why is this worth noting?
  • As of March 2014, the trilogy had been downloaded 120,000 times, as compared to the 640,000 copies of the official game Sonic Lost World (also released in 2013) sold by the same time. - you don't exactly state that this is a rare tour de force for an indie game, like you do in the lede — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, only question left is whether or not that email should actually be included. I mean, it goes nowhere and is only mentioned offhandedly in one source. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I've merged a few of the paragraphs together after redacting that sentence. Tezero (talk) 01:37, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support assuming that no further RSes are found. Good read. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Prism[edit]

  • "the trilogy of Before the Sequel, After the Sequel, and third installment Sonic Chrono Adventure" — A bit ambiguous. (i.e.: The trilogy of Before the Sequel: After the Sequel and third installment Sonic Chrono Adventure)
  • How is it ambiguous? How would adding a colon in place of a comma make it any less so? Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The example inside the parentheses is how one could interpret the sentence (as if you were referring to After the Sequel and Sonic Chrono which form the trilogy of Before the Sequel). pedro | talk 17:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Prism, I've reworded it a little, although I don't think it's confusing either way as a trilogy would not include two items. (Also, you used the word "support" in your last edit summary. I don't know whether you mean to say that you support this nomination, but if so, please state this outright in bold.) Tezero (talk) 18:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Remove also from "can also fly" (redundant)
  • Um... why? It isn't used earlier, and I think it helps keep it unambiguous that Tails' ability to fly does not come at the expense of some other ability. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "it includes ones typical of the Sonic series" — awkward wording
  • Reworded to "typical Sonic power-ups". Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • My bad. That came from the merging of a few paragraphs and I didn't notice it earlier. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "more reserved" seems like NPOV
  • Well, his praise was less effusive. I'm not claiming one way or the other whether the game is good or whether he's a biased writer. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The average reader should be able to figure out that he was more reserved while referencing the music. Anyway, I'm not going to insist.
  • While refs aren't explicitly part of the FAC, we have to ensure that these articles are in top-notch condition. Can you insert the publishers for websites on their refs?
  • This isn't standard (only czar does it as far as I know), it's not required now (plenty of video game FAs pass without them), and I think it would set an onerous precedent if it became required. However, for information's sake:
  • Kotaku - Gawker Media
  • Red Bull - Red Bull
  • Game Rankings - CBS Interactive
  • NintendoLife - Network
  • IndieGames - UBM Tech
  • Destructoid - independent
  • Per WP:VG/S — has "author reliability" been checked for Damien McFerran, considering he's an editor for NintendoLife?
  • He's the editorial director of NintendoLife and a couple of other sites and has also written for IGN UK and Eurogamer. Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Could you ping me when you respond to those comments? Thank you, pedro | talk 11:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

@Prism: Tezero (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I now Support the article as I believe it fulfills all of the FA criteria (i.e. follows the MOS rules, is extremely comprehensive even though there wasn't a lot of coverage for this game, its prose is brilliant—all in all, an article developed by Tezero. Keep up the good work. pedro | talk 18:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The Boat Race 2012[edit]

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk) 07:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, earlier this year, ThaddeusB created an article about this year's "edition" of The Boat Race and managed to get it into the In The News section. Encouraged by this and passively goaded by Bencherlite, I've set about trying to create well written and well referenced articles about every running of this peculiarity of amateur sports held annually since 1829. This race, probably the most controversial of modern times, seemed like a good place to start. It's been through GAN and PR, so now it's here. Thanks to all who take the time to comment. And thanks to Mike Christie, Ruhrfisch and Dom497 for the various reviews that have got me at least this far... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Image review (prose review to follow once my image concerns are dealt with)
    • File:University of Cambridge coat of arms official.svg - The date of creation of the coat of arms itself is certainly not 2013. This should be updated to the correct date. Also, as the University of Cambridge is a British university, a UK PD tag is necessary.
      • I don't know the answer to the question. I've removed it until someone who is more knowledgeable than me can answer it and resolve your concern. Would you be able to help me with this? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Looking at Commons:Coats_of_arms, I suspect that we'd have to ask the image lab to produce a rendering based on the blazon. Cambridge's coat of arms was granted in 1453, but according to Commons "Generally speaking, the author's right on a CoA is attached to the artist that draws a given representation, not to the CoA definition (the blazoning). Therefore, a CoA can be freely drawn after a model (without involving derivative rights), but a given picture "found on the internet" cannot be uploaded: it must be redrawn." In more simple terms, if the image is taken directly from an official website (like File:Oxford University Coat Of Arms.svg) it would be a copyvio, but if it were redrawn (say, at the image lab) based on the blazon it would be free. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:23, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
          • So are you suggesting that all usage of this existing image in Wikipedia is "illegal"? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
            • To the best of my understanding of Commons:Coats_of_arms, yes. Nikkimaria may be more familiar with the technicalities behind this one. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
              • So I guess it should be deleted from Commons? I'm no expert, as demonstrated above.... I suppose that means I need to remove them from the template at the bottom of the page as well? Or will a bot do that once the offending items are deleted at Commons? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
              • Commons seems to be contradicting itself a bit there, but either way in this particular case given the age of the COA I'd expect that an image old enough to be free should exist already. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:20, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
                • Hmm... I guess that means checking Internet Archive for a pre-1923 rendition. If it's essentially the same, then we'd just have to colour it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Same goes with File:Oxford-University-Circlet.svg
    • File:University Boat Race Thames map.svg - What's the source of the base map (i.e. the shape and relative size of the river?), or, if there is no base map, the data used to make this map? Also, the link to PoL is dead, for me. This archive link works.
      • I'm not sure I can tell you the answer you're seeking. The image in its use on the article makes no claims of scale, accuracy etc, moreover it's simply there to provide context to the race description. I don't think "base data" is required. I generally avoid editing Commons, but will see what I can do about adding in the archive link. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Hmm... perhaps a note similar to "the shape of the river can be confirmed from [link]". Not really worried about the base data, but just something that can vouch for the (relative) accuracy of the map. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
          • I've added a note, is it sufficient for you? Did you see my request above? Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
            • Saw it. Haven't had much luck yet. Will get back to you on that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • All photographs are okay (licensed freely on Flickr, no evidence of flickr washing) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Prose comments from Crisco
    • Despite having the heavier crew, Oxford were pre-race favourites having had a successful preparation period, including a victory over Leander. - Does BrE require a comma between favourites and having?
    • boats were titled - In Canadian English I don't think I'd say "titled", but "named". I assume BrE accepts "titled"?
      • Titled reads naturally to me, just as named would too. Interchangeable and a matter of preference I guess. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Shouldn't Goldie be linked on first mention in the Background section?
      • Yes, fixed (and also per Ruhrfisch's note below). The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • 1.45pm but 2:15pm: suggest standardizing time formats
    • won the toss - a coin toss? Perhaps link Coin flipping
    • Suggest having Oldfield's full name on first mention in the body (i.e. outside the lead). Also, might be better to say "protestor" or something similar so readers get a bit of context.
    • Charing Cross hospital - As this is a proper name (and the article is at Charing Cross Hospital), recommend having a capital H. Also, are you against linking the hospital?
    • President Nelson - To avoid possible confusion with University president for people who didn't notice the table, is there a way to make it clear that he was president of the boat club in-text?
      • Linked to OUBC and CUBC and recapitalised president. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • suffragette Emily Davidson - I believe that BrE condemns the use of "false titles" like suffragette, and would keep "the" in front of it.
      • Okay, I've not come across that before, but reworded nevertheless. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:57, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    • pay £750 costs. - perhaps "in fines"?
  • Very well written. Just a few very minor nitpicks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support on prose. A good read. The only remaining image issue is a bit complicated, but I'm certain we can find a way in which some version of the Oxford/Cambridge coats of arms can be used freely. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Support. I spot checked a couple of sources and found no cause for concern. I reviewed this at PR and I think it's in good shape. A suggestion: how about including Hudspith's comment that the Oxford team "went through seven months of hell, this was the culmination of their careers, and [Oldfield] took it away from them"? The Telegraph and Guardian articles both quote it and it would go well alongside the quote from Zeng. Just a thought. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Mike, and thanks again for your help in the PR leading up to this. I've implemented your suggestion. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Support Checked most sources and and all is good. Nice article. NickGibson3900 (Talk - Cont.) 06:35, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Support – I've reviewed a few of the races at GA, although not this one, and I'm happy to see one of them come up at FAC. Nicely put together, it covers all the points I would expect, and does so well and succinctly. - SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Support I reviewed this in PR and found some more free photos for the article on Flickr. The only change I can see on a re-read is to move the link for the Goldie boat to the first mention (up a section). Well done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from EddieHugh

  • My main comment is on exactly what the article is about. The opening sentence states "an annual side-by-side rowing race", then the second para of the lead introduces the reserve and women's races, so it's not about one ("an") race. There's a full breakdown of the crews for the main race, but nothing at all on the crews for the other two (this info should be easy to find). Under "Races" there's some background on the women's race, then one sentence on what happened; for the reserve race there's a summary of what happened. Then "Reaction" is about only the main race. I think that the article should be a) on only what's now called the "main race", or b) on all three races, with proper coverage given to all of them. As it stands, it's somewhere between these two. EddieHugh (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Typically the main race is the one given all the high profile coverage. The reserve race is normally covered in main press outlets with a single paragraph compared to a few columns for the main race. The women's race, until 2015, has had very little coverage but again, typically the press with cover it with a sentence or two. That's how this article is constructed, reflecting the manner of the way the race is covered traditionally. I understand your concern, and if it results in you not wishing to participate in this review any further, so be it. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
To me, that neglects criterion 1b: "comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context". It's also confusing for readers with no background knowledge, as which of three races described is being referred to at various points in the article is not made explicit. (A further omission is that there were, in fact, four races, as there was a reserve race for women, too. Being particularly pedantic, there were six races, including the lightweight women's and lightweight men's races. Again, if the article is about "The Boat Race", then only one needs to be mentioned; if it's about all of them, then all should be mentioned and relevant information supplied. The current situation is confusing for the most important person – the reader. A possible solution is to re-structure, putting the main race and all its info first, then 'other races' or similar in a separate section, and then making explicit in the opening line that the article is about more than one rowing race.) EddieHugh (talk) 10:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. The reserve/women's race is put in context from the background section. Of course, there were the minor lightweights and women's reserve races, but they are seldom, if ever reported upon. I could excise all mention of the reserves/women's race if that would alleviate confusion, but that'd be a bit of a shame, deliberately removing information which is delineated by the use of "women's" and "reserves". The Rambling Man (talk) 11:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
A quick comment, since I supported above. I see EddieHugh's point, but I don't like the proposed solution, and to be honest I don't see an alternative article structure as fixing the issue. Almost all readers are going to search for this article because they're interested in the main boat race. Even if there's enough information on the subsidiary races for them to be notable in their own right, I think they'd end up being merged into this article. The title of this article should reflect the primary topic of the article, so I don't think those races should be mentioned in the title. Perhaps a couple of redirects could be created from e.g. "Women's boat race 2012", if there's a standard name that readers might search for. Overall, I think the article deals with the issue as well as it can. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I hope to have time to give a detailed review of the content, but there's little point if my main comment is not addressed. A couple of early things: sentence 2 has "having the heavier crew" (should be "having the lighter crew") and the infobox has "John Garrett (Oxford)" (more detail needed: I believe that he was chosen by Oxford but previously rowed for Cambridge). EddieHugh (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Missing a "Cambridge" in the lead, so added, thanks. Garrett's () should have been Cambridge, he rowed for them in the 80s, so changed, and added a sentence in the article. Thanks for picking that up. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:22, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Respone to EddieHugh - Featured Articles have to be comprehensive, but they also have to follow published sources and policies such as Neutral Point of view, which includes WP:WEIGHT, which says in part "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." The 2012 Boat Race was an oddball with the swimmer stopping the race, so I looked at 2011 and 2013 coverage by the BBC: 2011 race and 2013 race. Each news article focuses on the main race, and mentions members of each team (2011 lists both teams in full, 2013 does not), while also briefly mentioning which university won the women's and reserve races. So this article follows the model of reliable news sources and NPOV (and the WP:MOS). I will also mention that the first sentence cannot have everything in it (though the lead should summarize the article as a whole) - please see WP:LEADSENTENCE. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. WP:NPOV is really about controversial topics; more generally, it's about views. WP:WEIGHT is also about neutrality of views. There aren't many views in the article: perhaps only what Cam and Ox people said about the race and comments by and about Oldfield. Which races were held is not a view, it's a question of fact: "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint" applies to viewpoints expressed in the article. Listing, for instance, the women's crews would not be giving undue prominence to a viewpoint (what would the viewpoint be?); it would be giving readers (neutral) information. Not mentioning, for instance, that there was a reserve women's race will lead the reader to conclude erroneously that there wasn't one. Surely what the reader takes away is more important than whether the article is representative of the quantity of information provided by the mainstream media?
Let me try again on the structure... here's the article's structure, with the terms used in each part:
  • Lead. The Boat Race.
the reserve race.
the Women's Boat Race.
  • Background. The Boat Race.
the Women's Boat Race.
the reserve race.
  • Crews. (not stated, but The Boat Race)
  • Races. the Women's Boat Race.
the reserve race.
(not stated, but The Boat Race, now named "the main race")
  • Reaction (not stated, but The Boat Race, now named "the race")

'It's not optimal' is my summary. EddieHugh (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

But every mention of the other races is either in its own section with a header relating to women's or reserves, or explicitly referred to as such, all other instances (and you can refer to the same thing a number of ways), relate to the Boat Race. I don't see a problem. And just because something isn't mentioned in an article, it doesn't imply that it doesn't exist. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
We don't have a problem understanding because we have enough background knowledge to allow filters to work automatically (e.g., "the race" = "the boat race" = the men's one; it's easily the most important, so "Crews" is about only that one); my concern is for people who don't have that knowledge. Mentioning the men's boat race, men's reserve race and women's boat race, but not the women's reserve race, runs the risk of people inferring that the last of those did not exist, I suggest. EddieHugh (talk) 15:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that if the women's reserve race exists and can be sourced, it should be mentioned -- I certainly hadn't realized it existed, and as EddieHugh suggests, I actually assumed it did not exist because it wasn't mentioned. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I am OK with mentioning the women's reserve race (assume it would be maybe one sentence). I will point out that the women's races were held on a different day and on a different and shorter course, and that there can be up to SIX other races held with the Women's Boat Race - see Henley_Boat_Races#Events. I do not think all six other races need to be mentioned here - I think WP:WEIGHT applies when it says in part "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Let's not forget this is an instance of a prominent race, whose result is widely publicised alongside the reserve race (usually a paragraph) and the women's race (usually a sentence). There are other races that exist between the universities, they are not covered here either. We have a main article to cover the panoply of other aspects of the annual event. I could list all the events that happened throughout the year in rowing that featured both crews, but none are particularly notable beyond the three I have already included in this article. As I said from the outset, the best I could offer would be to remove all mention of the reserve and women's race which, I believe, would be to the detriment of the article, so that's not going to happen. So, an impasse. If that results in the unsuccessful closure of the nomination, so be it. I'd rather not get the article "featured" if it doesn't make an attempt to mirror the high quality mainstream resources that have covered the race since 1829 and the other minor races since the 1960s. Thanks for your time, in particular the reviewers at GAN, PR and here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Is the current structure really clearer than the following possibility?
  • Lead. The Boat Race.
the reserve race.
the Women's Boat Race.
  • The Boat Race. Background. Crews. Race. Reaction
  • The reserve race. (probably 1 or 2 paras covering just background & race if you wish to omit crews)
  • The Women's Boat Race. Background. Race. (probably no more if you wish to omit crews)

This separation of main race and others is, incidentally, very similar to the structure of the main article you mentioned. If you think that the current structure is better, please answer:

Why is it better (for the reader)?
It's chronological. If you prefer to remove all mentions of the other races, please suggest that explicitly. It will then not exist in Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Chronological? The women's race (1) was on an earlier date (not mentioned in the infobox, adding to potential confusion); the reserve (2) was next, then the main (3). The current article structure, using those numbers, is: Lead 321; Background 312; Crews 3; Races 123; Reaction 3. My proposed structure would be chronological: 321! EddieHugh (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I obviously mean chronological for each race. As I said, if you'd prefer to remove it all rather tag it awkwardly at the end, then that's a solution, but not one I'll be following up. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
How is the unknowledgeable reader to know that the "Crews" section is about the main race?
Because all other races are explicitly tagged with "reserve" or "women's". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
But the other race is named "The Boat Race" in the lead and background, but given no name in Crews. Anyway, this is a symptom of the overall article structure. EddieHugh (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Not really, there's no confusion unless you're applying a forensic examination of the semantics of the article. If you have specific issues with confusion in specific sentences, I'll be happy to fix them. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
e.g., "4.2 miles (6.8 km) Championship Course" (should be hyphenated and singular); "the race currently takes place" ("currently" is time dependent, so shouldn't be used); "However, Cambridge held the overall lead, with 80 victories to Oxford's 77.[5]" (80–77 is not in that source and contradicts the infobox numbers). And so on, but this is just detail, as I mention below. EddieHugh (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, are you going to look at the "and so on" now please so I can address the other specific issues with the article? Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Oppose, based on criterion 1a, with a question mark against 1b and 1c. As I mentioned in my first post, doing a more detailed review would come after making larger changes. I haven't managed to bring about those changes and haven't been convinced that the current version is optimal for readers either, so, from my perspective, sorting out the small things is not what's required and would inevitably clash at some point with the structure/content, so couldn't be done satisfactorily anyway. More detailed reasons for my decision to oppose are on various parts of this page. EddieHugh (talk) 10:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
A shame you seem prepared to allow factual errors to go uncommented however, but I understand that if you if can't have the changes you alone want to the structure, you're unprepared to help with the rest of the process. Nevertheless, thanks for your contributions. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
How is the unknowledgeable reader to know that the "Reaction" section is about the main race? EddieHugh (talk) 18:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Because all other races are explicitly tagged with "reserve" or "women's". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
By the way, the main article has, in no way, any accreditation from me. It's something I may choose to work on improving in due course. It is, however, the place where generic information about the races should be contained. Its structure may, or may not, be similar to this article, if it is, it's a coincidence. If not, well, meh. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I forgot to mention, thanks for your interest and comments on this nomination. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I see that you've put in a huge amount of effort into Boat Race articles and assume (plus hope) that you'll continue to do so. I'm not being difficult for the sake of it – I'd like to see the articles be as good as they can be, with the reader at the centre (all of the details of text formatting that tend to be concentrated on here are technical details, really), hence my stressing of the overall structure (the level of detail is more a matter of opinion/policy, so I happily give way on that). I also recommend consulting some more specialist sources to provide more detail and accuracy. Here's one race report, for instance, which offers both. EddieHugh (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"Detail and accuracy" with regard to what? If you're suggesting I could "rephrase" the source into the race section, sure, I'm happy to add more detail, although you're the only person claiming issues with "accuracy". Can you be more specific with any lack of "accuracy" you've alluded to in the article please, I'll certainly be looking into fixing that, considering variety of RS I've already used. You have confused me since you say "the level of detail is more a matter of opinion ..." then "I also recommend ... to provide more detail...". Mixed signals. Confusing. Mind you, any article claiming "accuracy" which capitalises the toss has lost my faith from the word go... and phrases like "appeared in the water ... immediately spotted" makes matters worse. Moreover, as well as changing tense at will, it completely overlooks the fact that Pinsent had to alert the umpire, but hey, which article is more accurate and detailed than the other? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Level of detail about the other races (opinion/policy) vs level of detail about the main one. Accuracy (coupled to detail)... e.g., "their coxswain Zoe de Toledo had steered too close to Cambridge and despite more warnings from the umpire there was a serious clash of oars" against "the crews drifted together". There are also specialist rowing magazines that may offer perspectives different from the mainstream UK media. EddieHugh (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, and it will be impossible from an observer's perspective to easily determine whether a boat "drifted" towards another (unlikely) or was steered towards another (likely). The only way would have been to talk to the cox after the event to determine whether the boat moved autonomously or whether she steered it that way. I'm not sure how you would proceed, by writing all the possible intricate occurrences giving each possibility for each event being reported on, or reduce to it what was simply observable from television or the river bank. I've tried to steer a line between both. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Being BOLD, I added the six-word sentence "Oxford won the women's reserve race." to the end of the paragraph on the Women's race. This is already in the cited source (so no new ref was needed). I do not think it significant enough to be included in the lead, and hope this resolves the dispute and allows this fine article to earn its well deserved FA star. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Late-to-the-party support (from the perspective of a Dark Blue to counterbalance TRM's Light Blue stance - and the perspective of someone who shared a flat for a year with one grad student who trained all year only to come 9th in the selection of 8 rowers for Isis...) The Ruhrfisch compromise is the way forward - frankly, very few even within Oxbridge (let along outside - family members excepted!) care about the result of the lightweights races or the reserve women's crews' race; the Isis—Goldie race gets a smidgen of coverage because it's the curtain-raiser to the main event; and so this article gives appropriate coverage. The only question for the hard-working TRM is whether there's anything in sources about whether security for the Olympics was enhanced in the light of the Oldfield incident. BencherliteTalk 14:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

  • It's a good question. I can't find anything specific about it, the Financial Times had an article which referred to the more open events, such as road races etc which would be exposed to such "lone warrior" behaviour, but I guess it meant nothing more than a heightened awareness of such moronic behaviour. I'll have a further dig around to see if there's anything tangible. Thanks for your comments! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

James Chadwick[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC) and Nobeljeff (talk)

This article is about yet another scientist, James Chadwick is the man who discovered the neutron. In 1932, with a laboratory instrument literally made from string and sealing wax. The group photo of the Cavendish Lab staff that year had eight Nobel Prize winners sitting in the front row. Rutherford. Thomson. Kapitza. Cockcroft. Blackett. And then there was the neutron. Chadwick found it, measured it, weighed it. Within just a few years neutrons would be the key ingredient in a scientific endeavour on an unprecedented scale. And Chadwick played a key part in all of this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I copyedited the article at A-class per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 12:16, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the details in the infobox, for example Pollard being his student, do not appear to be sourced in the text
  • Why bold Chadwick's name in Notes?
  • FN46: page?
  • Don't repeat cited sources in External links. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

With regard to the emboldened names in the papers. Someone has been going around creating DOI templates for famous papers. So the links to Chadwick appear bold in his own article. I like to have the original papers linked in the scientific articles so readers can see them for themselves. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Cwmhiraeth[edit]

This looks to be a well-written, well laid out article. I particularly like the fact that it is low on jargon and is understandable to a non-physicist like me. A few points on the prose:

  • What was the occupation of his father?
    • Added his parents' occupations. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "He was named after his paternal grandfather" - It would be helpful if the name "James" was mentioned somewhere in this paragraph.
  • "At the age of 16, he sat for two university scholarship examinations, and was offered both." - Was he really offered two university scholarship examinations?
    • Two scholarships. At the age of 16, he sat two examinations for university scholarships, and won both of them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "This time the resulting paper was published under his name only." - I don't care for the "only" at the end of this sentence.
    • Changed to "alone". Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "The reason for this would remain unexplained for many years." - This is an ambiguous remark.
    • The continuous spectrum would remain an unexplained phenomenon for many years. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "At a conference at Cambridge on beta particles and gamma rays in 1928, Chadwick met Geiger again, who brought with him a new model of his Geiger counter, which had been improved by his post-doctoral student Walther Müller." - This sentence is rather long and convoluted.
    • Split. At a conference at Cambridge on beta particles and gamma rays in 1928, Chadwick met Geiger again. Geiger had brought with him a new model of his Geiger counter, which had been improved by his post-doctoral student Walther Müller. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "... used polonium to bombard beryllium" - I think you mean particles emitted by polonium rather than the stuff itself?
    • Yes, but I've spent so much time writing about polonium that hadn't occurred to me.
  • "Chadwick had his Australian 1851 Exhibition scholar, Hugh Webster, duplicate their results." - "had" is not ideal here, perhaps "asked" or "directed" or somesuch.
    • No, that won't do. Have to think of something else. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "His research into such matters were complicated by ..." - Perhaps "was" rather than "were".
  • "Observing the work on the K-25 gaseous diffusion facility at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, he realised how wrong he had been about building the plant in wartime Britain." - This needs some explanation, - which of his ideas was wrong?
  • "... the Hungarian-born economist Peter Bauer. Bauer was subsequently involved in what became known as the Peasants' Revolt, in which fellows led by Patrick Hadley voted an old friend of Chadwick's off the council and replaced him with the younger Bauer." - Too many Bauers.
    • In what became known as the Peasants' Revolt, fellows led by Patrick Hadley voted an old friend of Chadwick's off the council and replaced him with Bauer. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "He anticipated that neutrons would become a major weapon in the fight against cancer." - This fact from the lead is not mentioned again in the body of the article as far as I can see.
    • Added this.

Chadwick anticipated that neutrons and radioactive isotopes produced with them could be used to study biochemical processes, and might become a weapon in the fight against cancer. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your review! Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Ontario Highway 61[edit]

Nominator(s): Floydian τ ¢ 20:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

This article covers the first highway to connect Thunder Bay to the outside world, in this case, Duluth, Minnesota. The bridge between Canada and the U.S. was done without government approval, but despite that, was officially opened by both governments. I feel this route has some interesting history, and is well written/comprehensive; this merits the star in my eyes. Cheers, Floydian τ ¢ 20:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Support - I reviewed this article at ACR and feel that it is well-written and meets the FA criteria. Dough4872 04:14, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

History of KFC[edit]

Nominator(s): Tom (talk) 15:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

This article just needs someone to verify that the references are fine. Tom (talk) 15:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Welcome back. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page ... the reviewers asked you to check the references last time. Have you checked to make sure the references support the statements in the text, without any close paraphrasing? - Dank (push to talk) 16:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes I have done so. Tom (talk) 06:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I have no objections, given the references check out. Historical writing tends to be on the clunky side, and this article isn't totally immune, but I'm not objecting based on that. It's a very professional article its editors can be proud of. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 18:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm too new to FA promotion to do this myself (I'm still trying to figure out GA promotion), so I will defer to Dank or somebody else to proceed on that, if warranted. Stevie is the man! TalkWork 22:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Epacris impressa[edit]

Nominator(s): Melburnian (talk · contribs) and Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:20, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the floral emblem of the state of Victoria. I think it came together well and invite folks to let us know what else we (i.e. me and Melburnian can fix..pronto-like. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:20, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Driveby comment[edit]

Is there some exception with plants regarding the use of the single quotemarks? They shouldn't be double? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

when writing about plant cultivars we'd generally write ones that hadn't been PBR'ed with single quotes and ones that had with double quotes, but I think that is not a general rule. Have seen both here, but single quotes seem to be preferred - see Wikipedia:NCFLORA#Hybrids.2C_cultivars_and_provisional_names Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:22, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the exception is mentioned at MOS:QUOTEMARKS (Double or single). --Melburnian (talk) 12:31, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Another driveby: in the taxonomy section there's this sentence: 'A year later, he described E. nivalis, which he described as an "exceedingly beautiful species", from specimens growing in Loddiges nursery.' This uses "described" twice in different senses of the word, which is awkward and possibly confusing. Can the second use of the word be replaced, one way or another? Off the top of my head "characterized as" or "mentioned as" would be plausible, but neither of them sounds quite right. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 14:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I changed to "wrote of" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


  • File:Epacris_impressa_-_Paxton.jpg needs a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:26, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Done.--Melburnian (talk) 13:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

A few comments from CorinneSD[edit]

First, the article is quite well-written as it is. I made a few minor copy-edits which you will see. I have just a few questions:

Your copyedits look fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

1) Toward the end of the section Epacris impressa#Description are the following sentences:

"Within the corolla is a central style with the stigma at the apex and ovary at the base, where the nectar is also located. Different colour forms are often observed growing near each other. The fruit is a 5-locule capsule that is about 3.5 mm (0.14 in) in diameter. It is globular in shape, sometimes with one end flattened, and the style is persistent."

When I saw "and the style is persistent", I figured you meant the shape of the fruit, or capsule, but it could be a little confusing to readers who are not botanists. I may be wrong, but I think this is a different meaning from the first use of "style". Is there any way you could use a different word for the second instance (if it does in fact mean something different from the first use)?

Both instances of the word "style" refer to the floral element so I combined the two mentions to reduce confusion.--Melburnian (talk) 06:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

2) In the second paragraph in the section Epacris impressa#Taxonomy is the following sentence:

"Prolific botanist Robert Brown described Epacris ruscifolia in his 1810 work Prodromus Florae Novae Hollandiae et Insulae Van Diemen alongside E. impressa".

I wonder about including the adjective "prolific" here. It doesn't relate to anything else in that sentence or paragraph. No adjective before "botanist" would be all right, but if you want to use one, I think it would be more interesting for the average reader to give his nationality.

I ended up removing 'prolific' as (although he was prolific) it is not particularly germane to this article and looks odd when combined with his nationality... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

3) Also in the second paragraph in "Taxonomy" are the following sentences:

"John Lindley described Epacris tomentosa from plant specimens collected during the third expedition of Thomas Mitchell in 1838. Found on Mount William in the Grampians, it was described as "A most beautiful downy-leaved Epacris with large, curved, purple flowers, allied to E. grandiflora but much handsomer".

This is similar to the problem mentioned above by Nihiltres regarding E. nivalis later in this paragraph. You have the word "described" twice but with different meanings. (I believe the first instance is a botanists' term meaning something like "described for the first time".) In the first sentence you write, "John Lindley described...." Then in the second sentence, you switch to passive voice and say, "it was described as", with a detailed description full of admiration. If that is all right with you, then it can stay. I tried to figure out a way to change it so that you have Lindley saying this rather than the passive voice "it was described as", without making the first sentence longer, but haven't yet.

I changed it to ...Mitchell remarked that it was "A most beautiful downy-leaved Epacris..., as it was Mitchell's remark in the account of his expedition, rather than Lindley's description, the latter appearing as a footnote in that work.--Melburnian (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

4) The last sentence of the third paragraph in "Taxonomy" is:

"He classified plants collected by Allan Cunningham in the Blue Mountains as E. impressa as a separate species E. reclinata".

This is a little confusing. I think it means:

He classified plants [that had been] collected by Allan Cunningham in the Blue Mountains [and that Cunningham had identified] as E. impressa and identified them as a separate species E. reclinata.

If I am correct, then I think many readers would have trouble gleaning all this meaning from that sentence. I think some words need to be added to the sentence to fill it out and make the meaning clear. If I am wrong in my guess as to what it means, then that just supports my feeling that the sentence needs clarification.

You are indeed correct and I have tweaked it to try and make it unambiguous... 04:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure the problem is completely cleared up. I will look at it again a little later today. CorinneSD (talk) 13:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I re-worded two sentences in this paragraph to improve flow and clarity.
they look fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

5) Regarding spelling: You've got "south-east" in the first paragraph in the lead and "south-eastern New South Wales" in the fourth paragraph in Epacris impressa#Taxonomy. I thought "southeast" was one word and "southeastern" was one word.

I removed the hyphen.. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

6) Regarding measurements: I see you used the conversion template for measurements early in the article. I've exchanged ideas with Sminthopsis84 on this. I know metric measurements are expressed in decimals (ml., centimeters, meters, kilometers), but inches and feet are not usually expressed in decimals. For readers (like me) who are used to inches and feet, a decimal such as 0.3 inch or 2.5 inches means very little. We can't get a mental picture of the size of the plant, length of stem or leaves, etc. Is there a way to calculate the inches measurements so that they are expressed as 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, 1/3 inch, 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch, 1-1/2 inch, etc., and feet so that they are 1'6", 2'8", etc., and delete the decimal that came out of the conversion template? – CorinneSD (talk) 02:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

See, funny you should say that, as that is what I did initially at FAC (see Banksia ericifolia) before (I recall) folks suggesting different. I am morethan happy to dispense with decimal places for imperial units...will have a look round and see if/when we discussed it...I have now asked at MOS as I am intrigued myself.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
See User talk:Sminthopsis84#Anise. CorinneSD (talk) 13:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
hmmm, ok - it's late here and I think I will sleep on it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)I must admit I do prefer fractions...amused there is "6 ft 7 in"..I can't look at that and not be reminded of Mae West's famous quip when meeting a 6 ft 7 in cowboy... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
(See some additional comments, interspersed above.) The fifth paragraph in Epacris impressa#Taxonomy begins:
"In his 1972 publication A Handbook to Plants in Victoria, Victorian botanist Jim Willis..."
Even though you've got "Victoria" in the title of the book A Handbook to Plants in Victoria there, the adjective "Victorian" before a name often means "from the Victorian age". I don't think you mean that because he published a book in 1972. You probably mean that he is/was from the province/state of Victoria in Australia (and Australians would be more likely to immediately associate "Victorian" with "from Victoria"). Do you really need to say that he was from Victoria? I don't think it's necessary. I think just "botanist" is enough, or perhaps "Australian botanist". The nationality would be an interesting bit of information for non-Australians. CorinneSD (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I changed it to "Australian botanist".--Melburnian (talk) 02:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Thief II: The Metal Age[edit]

Nominator(s): JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

One month after Thief: The Dark Project's commercially and critically successful debut, Looking Glass Studios started working on Thief II: The Metal Age. Eidos Interactive returned to publish the game, and it was produced—in what seems to have been a first for Looking Glass—almost entirely on schedule. Looking Glass stripped down the game's design to focus exclusively on stealth, partly at the request of their fan community. Unfortunately, a string of disastrous business mistakes had left Eidos and Looking Glass hemorrhaging money. Thief II was a success, but Looking Glass closed a few months after its release, after a buyout deal with Eidos fell through.

I started to overhaul this page back in April, as part of my push for the Looking Glass Studios video games GT. I realized a number of weeks ago that it was probably near FA quality, and that upgrading the GT to a FT wasn't unrealistic. So, hot on the heels of Flight Unlimited II's promotion, I present you with another nomination. I hope this one will be as trouble-free as my last, but I'll be on hand to address any concerns raised below. Thanks for reading. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tezero[edit]

I feel bad that my FAC has drummed up two reviews and yours none, even though mine is more recent. I'll review this later today; I just want to crank out some work on a non-video-game article I'll be putting up at GAN soon. At first glance, this looks high-quality, although Gameplay's a little short and summative. Tezero (talk) 17:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey, it was the 26th somewhere in the world then! Ahehe. Alright, initial comments, to be followed by more later:

  • Is it necessarily to note that the guards are AI-controlled? I mean, in what games aren't they?
  • That's a good point. Changed.
  • "While it is possible for the player character to engage in direct combat, he is easily defeated" - What weapons or other defense mechanisms does he have?
  • The bow and sword mentioned in the second paragraph. I thought this was clear, but, if it isn't, I'm not sure how I could change it.
  • Oh, I didn't notice. My mistake. Tezero (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "On the game's higher difficulty settings, the player typically must avoid killing humans" - You mean you fail the mission if you kill one, or they make noise as they die, a la Mark of the Ninja, on the hard difficulty only?
  • You fail the mission. Clarified.
  • How many difficulty settings are there?
  • Three. I'm not sure that it's necessary to include the exact number, though, because I only discuss the settings in passing.
  • Well, then just say "medium and hard" and mention nearby that there's an easy one. Tezero (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Changed.
  • "which connects to throwable "Scouting Orb" cameras that provide reconnaissance" - Can you only throw one at a time? If not, how do you switch between views? And either way, can you view both what the camera sees and what his biological eye sees at the same time?
  • You throw one at a time. When it lands, your screen changes to the perspective of the orb, and you can disable it at any time. After that, you can't reactivate the orb until you've picked it up and thrown it again. Stripping this down to "provide reconnaissance" seemed like a way to avoid cruft.
  • Eh, it's too vague, I think, and you're doing fine on cruft. (The section is quite short, actually, when you compare it to those of most VG FAs.) Tezero (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Added something. See what you think.
  • Describe the Trickster a bit in Setting and characters. Defeating a god is kind of a big deal.
  • Thief II-related sources were a bit thin on this subject, but Ken Levine mentions in a Thief: TDP interview that he was based on Pan, so I added that. There aren't really any third-party sources that describe the Trickster's plan, and it wasn't a by-the-books world domination thing, so I'm not sure what else to include.
  • Third-party sources aren't necessary if you can provide a short overview from game quotes or the manual. Tezero (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Done.
  • "The game's primary antagonist is the founder of the Mechanists, Father Karras (also voiced by Russell)" - Can you describe Karras a bit?
  • Added a bit. His defining trait is his crippling speech impediment, but none of the sources actually mention that, so I couldn't include it.
  • Again, you can use in-game dialogue to attest that. Tezero (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • No one in the game mentions his speech impediment. I added something else to flesh out his character.

Tezero (talk) 23:19, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Responded above. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
More responses. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Alright, looks good. So, I could've sworn I'd written out more comments... and I had! Except they were on a different Google Chrome window, because I'd opened this one to pull up Amazon listings for my textbooks for this semester, so that my parents could see them but wouldn't carp at me for being on Wikipedia. Then I forgot about this window, so my comments remained but a preview. Here:

  • "a game that Thief II project director Steve Pearsall considered to be an experiment" - While he was making Thief I, or afterward?
  • It isn't clear in the sources, but the comments were made post-Thief: TDP, so I changed it to indicate that.
  • "Combat was minimized more so than in the original" - Awkward. What about "Combat was given less focus/was less emphasized than in the original"?
  • Tweaked.
  • ""sort of a 'Batman' feel"" - Minor, but you might want to add ", referring to the 1989 film" and place the link there. Otherwise, the reader might think you're just talking about Batman in general and not bother to hover over the link to disambiguate.
  • Done.
  • "during his vacation in Europe" - Is this vacation referenced elsewhere that I'm not noticing? If not, just say "a vacation in Europe", and give a time estimate for this vacation if one's available.
  • It isn't mentioned elsewhere, but "a vacation" is unnecessarily vague, I think.
  • "The technique had been developed for the original Thief, as an evolution of Ken Levine's suggestion to use motion comic cutscenes." - Ken Levine talked to them for the original game? Can you elaborate on the context?
  • Ken Levine was a project planner on Thief: TDP before he left to found Irrational. He's pretty well known for it. I added "designer" to clarify it.
  • "The team met their goal" - Weird to introduce that after the preceding sentence without a "However" or "Nevertheless".
  • Changed.
  • "Eidos expedited the company's payment for completing the game." - Doesn't this always happen? (If so, why's it necessary to mention?) Or am I not understanding what it means?
  • They expedited (increased the speed of) payment in that they tried to get them funds faster than normal. It's relevant because Looking Glass was falling apart by this time, and this was Eidos throwing them a bone.
  • The prose in Reception is okay, but I'm not a fan of organization by reviewers (rather than issues), as the paragraph divisions are inherently arbitrary. I won't object just based on that because it's a stylistic preference and a large task, but try to rewrite it if you can, and definitely if someone else objects.
  • I've done it both ways in past FAs (Flight Unlimited and Flight Unlimited II), and I find that reviewer organization is easier. Plus, it lends itself less readily to original research, since issue-organization typically involves OR summary sentences at the beginning of each paragraph. I'd prefer to leave Reception as it stands.

After this, I'll only have to go through the last section, references, and images. Tezero (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Sounds good. Thanks for the thorough review. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Final batch:

  • "with Thief II Gold and Thief III cancelled" - These are elaborated on immediately afterward but never given as an antecedent earlier. Why mention it there?
  • This is the only place where Thief II Gold is mentioned, and it doesn't make much sense not to mention Thief III alongside it. I added a bit of context to make it seem less random.
  • You may want to place a "main" tag with Thief III and Thief the reboot so the reader doesn't have to pick through the text for them.
  • Done.
  • "but made an effort to avoid similarities to Mulan." - What similarities would these be? The fictional and real Mulan were Chinese.
  • The line is a reference to a design document published by PC Gamer UK. Here's the full context:
  • "She is about 18 years old. Dark brown hair, initially quite long but cut short after Mission 1 as a sign of grief for Kedar, whom she believes to be dead. She's about medium height, slender, pretty muscular for a girl. Features and skin tone lean toward an exotic, middle-eastern/north-african look with eyes slightly tilted and green in color. Graphics will be given a copy of the description and asked to solicit several character sketches. It's noted that we must avoid any strong parallels with Mulan."
  • Their reasoning is a bit strange to me as well, but the Mulan point was clearly important, so I decided to include it. Any suggestions?
  • Eh, if that's all that was given, it's fine. Strange, though. Tezero (talk) 06:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The Dark Mod may be worth mentioning in the prose if it really is that closely tied to the source material.
  • It's only distantly related to the article topic, but I thought that it was probably relevant enough for a See also mention. If you think it isn't necessary, I can just remove it.
  • Nah, it's fine. I'm pretty liberal on what gets to go in a See also. Wikipedia's a ballpit of link-hopping fun at the greyscale formality convention anyway; we may as well grant the reader an extra hour. Tezero (talk) 06:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

And... that's it! The FURs look fine, and no sources jump out as unreliable or improperly formatted. Tezero (talk) 23:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks. The article's size appears to be scaring away reviewers, so I really appreciate your taking a look at it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Huh. I hadn't thought of it as especially long, but I guess most game articles don't include a Post-release section or analogue. Tezero (talk) 06:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Support. Nice work. No further comments of mine are necessary. Tezero (talk) 06:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Temperatures Rising[edit]

Nominator(s): Jimknut (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the 1972-73 American television sitcom Temperatures Rising. I have greatly expanded the text of this article and believe that it now features a fairly comprehensive history of the series. I want to upgrade this to FA level. Please offer any suggestions you can to improve it. Thanks. Jimknut (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Freedom from Want (painting)[edit]

Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about one of the four paintings in a famous painting series by Norman Rockwell. It has sufficient stand-alone encyclopedic content to merit consideration here. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I have notified WP:HUMAN RIGHTS, WP:VISUALARTS, WP:HOLIDAY.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:12, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I have notified the GA2 reviewer Wehwalt.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:15, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

California Chrome[edit]

Nominator(s): Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about a California-bred racehorse who won this year's Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes, and his owners, all from humble roots and with interesting personalities. The horse is very popular, since the article's creation in March, it has had over 500,000 hits. Montanabw(talk) 22:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Comments from Go Phightins!

I'll get the ball rolling here for all those watching with popcorn as per Montanabw's suggestions Face-smile.svg.

  • "California Chrome was the first foal of his dam, Love the Chase, who was injured giving birth to him, requiring the mare and foal to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment." - sounds kind of "run-on/splicey" to me. Could this possibly be split into two sentences, or reworded such that dam becomes the appositive rather than Love the Chase? Not a huge deal; just struck me as awkward when reading.
  • Reworded. Better? --MTBW
  • "California Chrome was sent to the Shermans' training stable as a two-year-old, selected for its reputation for patiently developing young horses." - the second part here is bothering me ... selected for its reputation comes immediately after the part about the horse being two years old, not after Shermans' training stable, about which it is talking. How about " ... was sent to the Shermans' training stable, which was selected for its reputation for patiently developing young horses, when he was two years old" or similar?
  • Done --MTBW
  • "As early as the Santa Anita Derby, dedicated fan base, who came to be known as "Chromies", actively supported California Chrome, who was called "the people's horse"." That's a crap-load of commas and whatnot. Can it be simplified? "As early as the Santa Anita Derby, a dedicated fan base known as "Chromies" actively supported California Chrome, who was called "the people's horse." or similar?
  • I like your suggestion and killed a comma, but a minor nuance is that they weren't called "Chromies" at the SA Derby yet, the nickname appeared closer to the Kentucky Derby, hence the "came to be known" bit - I'm open to further comments to fix this, though. --MTBW
  • "Arriving at Churchill Downs for the Kentucky Derby, having won his previous four races by a combined total of 24 1⁄4 lengths, he was the morning line favorite." Start the new paragraph by using his name rather than a pronoun.
  • Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "But taking the lead in the homestretch, he was ahead by five lengths until Espinoza eased him up for the final 70 yards (64 m) to not over-exert him, and he won by 1 3⁄4 lengths." This sentence is confusing to me ... so Chrome took the lead during the homestretch and was ahead by five lengths, and then he slowed into the finish so he would not be exerted? If so, then how about something like - "After taking the lead during the homestretch, he was ahead by five lengths until Espinoza eased him up for the final 70 yards to avoid over-exerting him; ultimately, he won by 134 lengths" or similar?
  • Yup, exactly. The jockey slowed him down on purpose (and was so sure he won that he stood up in his stirrups and saluted with the whip BEFORE crossing the finish line!) I took most of your suggested wording and tweaked a couple other things. Better? --MTBW
  • "...and fifth in the world in the World's Best Racehorse Rankings in their June 12, 2014, listing" I am sorry; that's too many "ins" for one sentence ... can we remove one or two?
  • Killed some "ins" and reworded slightly. Better? --MTBW
  • I am to the end of the lead, and will pick up this review in the near future, but wanted to get the ball rolling for you. Go Phightins! 02:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I think I addresssed your questions - at least parttly - and I appreciate any more comments, follow up, and further review.. Montanabw(talk) 19:44, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Dr. Blofeld[edit]

  • Not sure why " Both the mare and foal were required to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment, during which California Chrome imprinted on humans owing to the extra attention he received from people who came by to treat his dam several times a day. His people-focused attitude was later viewed as a useful trait in his training as a racehorse." is really essential to lead. It's a lot more wordy than I think you really need to be. Perhaps trim it a bit?
    • Touched up some, if not enough, I am open to HOW to reword or trim; I've gotten a bit bleary-eyed and tunnel-visioned with this article after living with it since early April. You may be right that it isn't crucial, but that said, his behavior and quirks are part of the story, and (other than the flehmen response thing) mostly seem to be linked to his fondness for people. Montanabw(talk) 21:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Arriving at Churchill Downs for the Kentucky Derby" -can you add the date or month?
    • Rephrased, scratched my head a bit before putting date at end of sentence. Better? --MTBW
  • "After her win, Steve Coburn and Perry Martin became her official owners." -when was this?
    • Added date of race. Don't have date of actual purchase. Better? --MTBW
  • Curious as to what "horse cookies" are. An article on them would be great or a footnote explaining what they are might be useful. I gather they're not Oreos or Jammy Dodgers LOL.
    • Actually, they are pretty close! LOL! [1] But I'll add more to the note that's already at the end of the sentence. Better? Montanabw(talk) 21:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Observers have commented that California Chrome appears to be a very intelligent horse.. this paragraph shold probably go under a sub section title Behaviour as it needs too specific to really be general background.
    • OK. --MTBW
  • "Are the details like 28th anniversary and all that really essential? Some of the info given seems a bit more detailed than needed for the owners. Some of the info and quotes read like something out of a horse magazine rather than an encyclopedia article like " "[Coburn] was at the heat of the moment. And don't forget, he's a fairly new owner. Sometimes the emotions get in front of you ... He hasn't been in the game long and hasn't had any bad luck." ". and "Art Sherman liked the enthusiasm of Martin and Coburn,[22] but when Martin emailed his plan for which races California Chrome should run in to reach the Kentucky Derby, Sherman was dubious. Nonetheless, after the horse won the Preakness, Alan Sherman stated, "[Martin] mapped out a trail for this horse; it's actually worked to a 'T', so it's kinda amazing."[25] Art Sherman downplays his role in training California Chrome, saying "This horse is my California rock star. I'm just his manager."[60]" It reads as too wordy for an encyclopedia article I think which should really be stripped down to the essentials and get straight to the point.
    • I'd like to maybe move this bit to talk and discuss details of how to chop it; I agree that there probably is some cruft in here, as I was updating the article in real time as it developed. That said, the people story is a big deal, but per BIO1E, other than Art Sherman, these people are probably not likely to warrant their own WP article. It's virtually unheard of for all that stuff to have come together - first time breeders, all but first time owners, predict they had a Derby horse practically from birth and then win it, the huge fan base (even Secretariat didn't have people showing up wearing tinfoil and tattoos) and so on. The story here is basically that Coburn shoots his mouth off a lot but the Martins are the brains of the operation but so press-shy that I think they've had maybe one TV interview, two at most. Coburn's Belmont outburst (on National television) was a really big deal and the press is still ranting about it. --MTBW
    • I chopped the anniversary thing but it mattered at the time because Coburn said (also on national TV) at the Preakness that the Martins avoided the Preakness because they were pissed at how they got treated at the Derby when they said is was just their anniversary... So let's workshop that bit --MTBW
  • "Sherman viewed the colt's "rough trips" in perspective" -not sure what you mean here
    • Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "In December, California Chrome was switched to a new type of horseshoe" -perhaps "began wearing a new type of horseshoe" would fit better here?
    • OK. --MTBW
  • "It may have been a contributing factor to California Chrome's subsequent series of wins." -according to whom?
    • Sources got mixed up in a rewrite, put the proper source that attributes the streak to the shoes at the end of the sentence. Better? --MTBW
Racing history
  • "Sherman was impressed with Espinoza's riding, and Espinoza was impressed " -rep of impressed.
    • Agree it's awk, do you have a suggested rewording for the mutual admiration society that developed? Rephrased. Better? --MTBW
  • "assigned 124 pounds" -I gather this is common horse terminology but I'm not quite sure what it means. Given a weight classification or was weighed at that and classified as such or what?
    • It's a Handicap, but I wikilinked to impost because the races in question were not called handicaps and I didn't want to create even more confusion. The weight is how much the horse carried on its back. Jockey and saddle plus any extra weight needed to even out the horses -better ones get more weight. At first use, I reworded a couple of times to "He was one of four horses to carry 120 pounds (54 kg), the highest impost assigned in the race..." Is that better? (Open to further ways to improve so long as we don't have a digression into what a handicap race is, except that a Maiden special weight isn't technically a handicap... you get the idea... ) --MTBW
  • "In a post-race press interview, Sherman said he had visited Swaps' grave at the Kentucky Derby Museum prior to the Derby: "I said a little prayer and it came true, I said I hope he's another Swaps." Trainer Dale Romans, who had asserted that California Chrome had no chance to win, said, "I was very, very wrong ... We might have just seen a super horse and a super trainer. You don't fake your way to the winner's circle at the Kentucky Derby."[120] Dallas Stewart later admitted, "Oh, yeah, I was wrong."[10" -not sure you need this here, "In a post-race press interview, Sherman stated that he had visited Swaps' grave at the Kentucky Derby Museum prior to the Derby and prayed for success" should do.
    • I chopped the Sherman bit. Dale Romans was one of the biggest naysayers and is one of the most famous trainers in the country, so admitting he was wrong was sort of a big deal; people who follow the sport know who he is and why his quote was selected. I chopped Stewart, though seeing him eat crow was rather satisfying because he was such a jerk before the race. --MTBW
  • "California Chrome shipped via air to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes" -when was this?
    • About a week out. Does it matter? --MTBW
I think so, yeah, because it's really very soon afterwards and readers would probably want an indication of timeline.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
        • OK, done. That said, there was only two weeks between the two races, so they sort of split the difference. Montanabw(talk) 23:02, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • There's a rather a lot of quotes towards the end of Preakness Stakes which I'm not sure are all essential.
    • I trimmed some. Bob Baffert is probably the most famous race horse trainer in the USA, so him throwing in the towel was big deal, but I trimmed some of his stuff too. Better? --MTBW
  • ""Hey listen, we'll be here to fight another day, I'm just happy he's all in one piece." -not really needed.
    • Yeah, OK, but it's charming.  ;-) --MTBW

I gather that the guidelines for horse articles state that this should go in the bottom section. It's just the history background of the horse breeding lines I'd probably expect to see first in the background section.

    • Pedigree charts are always at the bottom. Not all articles have the detailed narrative, but when reading the details it helps to have the pedigree right there to refer to, and also, to put all that analysis in the "background" section up at the top would make the casual readers' eyes glaze over. (Kind of like the "begats" in Genesis!) Usually the background section has a short summary about the sire and dam's personal history, as here. The stuff of primary interest to horse aficionados can go a bit farther down because they will dig for it!  ;-) Better?--MTBW
  • Why is ref 51 all in lower casing?
    • Fixed --MTBW

Overall it's very informative and obviously has had a lot of effort and love go into it, but IMO it's too informative and long. 135kb is very long for an article on a relatively young racehorse. It contains a lot of details which I don't think anybody other than a "Chromie" would want to know. A lot of the details read a little like a magazine story on the horse; a lot of the quotes don't really help this. I understand that you'd be reluctant to condense it down too much but I think you could go through the article and pay attention primarily to giving the reader the basic facts and strip down anything which you think might detract from it or not be essential this would be an immediate improvement. Look at any paragraph and think how you might relay the same info in less words and detail and eliminate anything which you think might affect the reader getting a basic grasp of what is being said. I say this as in some sections there is so much detail on what the trainers said and did etc that I had to double check again and try to glean from it what the horse did and what happened. I'd lean towards support if you could strip it down a bit and make it more concise. I think you could get it down to 100kb without too much difficulty, certainly 120kb. If not possible, then anything you can do to shorten it and make it more concise without losing the important facts would be an improvement. If you're not convinced that it needs trimming feel free to ask the opinion of Eric or anybody else, it might just be me!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:10, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: I agree that this is a bit bloated, but compare to Mucho Macho Man, which passed FAC a few months back. It's hard for me to determine precisely what to trim at this point, as noted, I've just become bleary-eyed. Your idea of trimming quotes is a good one, I'm open to other ideas. Maybe give me 24 hours and then take a look. That said, given American race horse careers, unless something really odd happens, (Or Coburn shoots his mouth off again in an even more colorful fashion) the rest of his racing career is apt to be summed up as "at the end of his three year old season, he did or didn't win the Breeders' Cup Classic and Horse of the Year. In his four year old season, he won races X,Y, and Z and then his owners retired him to stud, syndicating him for X million dollars." It's actually rare for a Derby-winning stallion to run past his 4-year old year - too much money to be made in the breeding shed. --MTBW
  • Follow up: did some chopping, we are using different measurement tools, but using the User:Dr_pda/prosesize javascript tool, I've trimmed readable prose from 49K to 46K which was a chop of about 500 words, mostly quotations. Let me know if you have some areas you'd like me to scrutinize further. Montanabw(talk) 02:27, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I still think you could lose another 10 kb without too much difficulty though. I'll give it a read again later this week and try to be more specific with what I think could be cut. The content is certainly all there for FA anyway but my feeling is that as an encyclopedia article it needs to be more punchy and concise. On raw kb it's nearly twice the length of your Macho Man article! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:51, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Your idea of looking at quotations was a good one and I saw several that were chopable. Point me to other places where your eyes glazed over and I'll focus in. MMM was pretty cool, but he basically won one really big race but with a cool back story. CC won six in a row with an even quirkier back story. Montanabw(talk) 07:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Let's see what could be removed then:

  • ""Fans are coming out of nowhere", said Perry Martin."
  • Chopped--MTBW
  • "Perry Martin has an MBA,[11] a degree in applied physics from Michigan Technological University,[31] and an advanced degree in solid state physics from the University of Illinois-Chicago.[25] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[24] They celebrated their 28th anniversary on the weekend of the Preakness, thus missing seeing the race live.[32] They married in 1986,[32] and moved to California in 1987, where Perry Martin was employed as a metallurgist by the Air Force and Denise briefly job shadowed a racehorse trainer in the Sacramento area.[25] Perry Martin performed testing and analysis work, including work on Air Force weapons systems.[33] He wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published by McGraw-Hill in 1999.[34]

Steve Coburn, characterized by the media as "loquacious",[35][36] describes himself and his wife as "just everyday people".[21][24] He grew up in central California and was familiar with horses. He worked herding cattle at a feedlot,[11] participated in rodeos, and worked at some ranching jobs.[37] He now is a press operator for a company that makes magnetic strips.[22] Carolyn Coburn retired in March 2014 from a career working in payroll in the health care industry.[24] Carolyn introduced Steve to horse racing, and when he was looking for a tax write-off, she encouraged him to buy into a racing syndicate instead of purchasing a small airplane"

The article is about the horse not the owners. While some very briefly would be relevant, I'd create articles on them and remove all of this or trim to barely a sentence or two. I'd create an article on DAP Racing and include their bios in it if you think they're not notable enough individually. This was the most problematic part for me.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've heard this mentioned by multiple reviewers, and I DO see your point to some extent, but as I have also fought and lost battles on the drama boards in BIO1E land, and I am pretty certain that the deletionist warriors would not allow a stand-alone article to exist. If they win the Oaks in two years with 'Chrome's little sister, then we probably could justify it. But at the moment, given that the horse is their ONLY race horse and the first horse they've ever bred, it's actually kind of difficult to separate the people from their critter. All that said, we can chat about it some more and see if we can reach a solution. Perhaps I will also post at WP horse racing and see what folks there think. The project's notability criteria for horses is winning a grade 1 race, for trainers and jockeys it's a little more; Sherman becomes notable enough for his own article for both 'Chrome plus his connection to Swaps on top of a 50+ year career. --MTBW
Reading a horse article though I don't care when the owners got married!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • I trimmed this a little, per comment above, I am concerned that the BIO1E police would not consider these folks "notable." I've fought and lost a couple of these, I can just hear them now saying "merge to California Chrome." The owners are a big part of this story, but not as big as Claiborne Farm. (Few racehorses have owners notable as owners, unless for other reasons, such as, for example, Jim Rome --MTBW
  • "Art Sherman's assistant is his son, Alan,[57] who is also a licensed trainer.[23] Alan was a jockey for three years in the 1980s until, as he put it, "I ate my way out of that job." As a jockey, he rode in southern California for trainers such as Charlie Whittingham and won over a million dollars in purse money, while closely observing how his employers trained their horses, anticipating that some day he too would become a trainer. Rather than run an independent training stable like his brother Steve, Alan has worked with his father since 1991." - Could be trimmed to "Art Sherman's assistant is his son, Alan, a licensed trainer who was a jockey for three years in the 1980s". Merge with previous paragraph.
    • Another BIO1E problem. In theory, some of that could go into the Art Sherman article, but as Alan Sherman has basically let his dad take all the credit while, especially now, he is doing most of the work, I'm not quite sure what to do, want to be sure credit is given where credit is due - somehow, the guy definitely deserves more than just a passing, "is the assistant." Thoughts? --MTBW
  • "Art Sherman liked the enthusiasm of Martin and Coburn,[22] but when Martin emailed his "Road to the Kentucky Derby" plan outlining which races California Chrome should run, Sherman was dubious. Later, Alan Sherman stated, "[Martin] mapped out a trail for this horse; it's actually worked to a 'T', so it's kinda amazing."[25] Art Sherman downplays his role in training California Chrome, saying "This horse is my California rock star. I'm just his manager."[59]" None of this is really essential or that encyclopedic.
    • That I think should - mostly - be kept, though I'm open to streamlining the prose. The email is a big part of the story - that a first time breeder creates a plan and it happens. Really almost Twilight Zone-ish. --MTBW
  • "Steve Coburn said he had a dream not long before California Chrome's birth that the foal would be a colt with four white feet and a blaze.[43] California Chrome was relatively large for a newborn horse, weighing 137 pounds (62 kg). Martin described the foal as "running circles around Momma" within two hours of birth.[44" -trim to simply "California Chrome was relatively large for a newborn horse, weighing 137 pounds (62 kg)."
    • The dream thing is a part of the horse's story, it was out there over and over again. Explained why the other is in there. The dam was injured, but the foal was fine and athletic from early on. Rephrased it a bit though. --MTBW
  • " Alan Sherman said, "My jaw dropped",[86] while Art Sherman joked, "I'm glad I'm training at Los Alamitos, because he looked like a 350 [yard] horse coming out of the gate",[87] a reference to Quarter Horse racing distances. Espinoza simply remarked, "I wanted to let him enjoy his race,"[88] later adding, "I wanted to see if he [could] go wire to wire ... that was the day I found out how much he loves to run."[7" -not really encyclopedic
    • ."Encyclopedic" doesn't have to mean "boring." The truth was that the horse really blew away the field and even shocked his trainers. But to say "he blew away the field and shocked his trainers with his speed" would be WP:SYNTH. So let them tell the story and the readers can draw their own conclusions ;-)--MTBW
  • "Once on the ground, their van had a police escort from the airport to the track.[120] Just as before the Derby, the horse galloped on the Pimlico track, but had no timed workouts.[121][122] Delgado, who had previously ridden and trained in Maryland, compared the long and narrow Pimlico oval favorably to the colt's home track at Los Alamitos.[123] Sherman did not like that the horse had to run again with only a two-week break, but was confident that California Chrome was eating well, had gained back any weight he had lost running the Derby, plus had gained another 35 pounds (16 kg) by Preakness day.[121] When he arrived at Pimlico to prepare for the Preakness, the management at that track welcomed him with two saddlecloths for his workouts, one with the "Califorina" misspelling and the other with the correct spelling,[109] because the misspelled cloth was starting to be viewed as a good luck token.[110]

News stories prior to the Preakness discussed the relatively slow pace of the Derby and the low Beyer Speed Figure of 97 earned by California Chrome in his win, saying the fresh "speed horses" who had not run in the Derby would challenge him over the shorter distance of the Preakness. Manny Azpurua, 85-year-old trainer of new rival Social Inclusion, who ran third in the Wood Memorial, asserted that the Preakness field would be stronger than the Derby field, saying, "California Chrome has to prove again he's the best 3-year-old."[124][125] Sherman responded, "He's got enough lick that he can stay with any horse in the race. He likes a target to run at."[126] California Chrome was assigned the number three post position and was the morning line odds-on favorite at 3–5.[124] Sherman was not troubled by the inside spot.[127] Followers noted that Secretariat had also run the 1973 Preakness Stakes from the number three post.[128] Owner Coburn was optimistic: "One race at a time, but I'm still thinking Triple Crown."[129] The Thursday before the race, California Chrome was observed coughing four times after his morning gallop, prompting media speculation about his health. He had a small blister in his throat, which he also had prior to the Kentucky Derby, both times treated with a glycerine throat wash. When the condition first appeared in Kentucky, Alan Sherman stated that a veterinarian had checked the horse and performed blood work; other than the "itchy" throat, he was in good health.[130] The intense press attention paid to the relatively minor issue was dismissively dubbed "throat-gate" by sportswriter Bill Dwyre of the Los Angeles Times.[131]" I'd condense all of this down to:

"Once on the ground, their van had a police escort from the airport to the track.[120] Just as before the Derby, the horse galloped on the Pimlico track, but had no timed workouts. Sherman did not like that the horse had to run again with only a two-week break, but was confident that California Chrome was eating well, had gained back any weight he had lost running the Derby, plus had gained another 35 pounds (16 kg) by Preakness day.[121] When he arrived at Pimlico to prepare for the Preakness, the management at that track welcomed him with two saddlecloths for his workouts, one with the "Califorina" misspelling and the other with the correct spelling,[109] because the misspelled cloth was starting to be viewed as a good luck token.[110]

California Chrome was assigned the number three post position and was the morning line odds-on favorite at 3–5.[124] Sherman was not troubled by the inside spot.[127] Followers noted that Secretariat had also run the 1973 Preakness Stakes from the number three post. California Chrome was observed coughing four times after his morning gallop, prompting media speculation about his health. He had a small blister in his throat, which he also had prior to the Kentucky Derby; it was treated with a glycerine throat wash. The intense press attention paid to the relatively minor issue was dismissively dubbed "throat-gate" by sportswriter Bill Dwyre of the Los Angeles Times."

    • Tightened some, not quite as much as you have, but chopped several quotes. Better? --MTBW
  • "Sherman said California Chrome was "tired" after the race but that he would be "fine" for the Belmont. " -not really needed.
    • Hmm. Debatable. Rephrased a little to tighten, but the point is that he probably didn't lose the Belmont because he was tired out. Thoughts? -MTBW
  • "California Chrome galloped daily for up to 2 miles (3.2 km) and Delgado commented, "I can tell you he loves this track, and I don't see him (having) any problem getting a mile and a half."[150] Alan Sherman commented on California Chrome's conditioning: "He's never taken a step back, he just keeps getting better and better and improving. It's kind of scary, really." He added, "This horse has just taken us on the ride of our lives."[151] Fisher flew to New York to put on a new set of horseshoes,[77] and Espinoza arrived to give the colt a short workout known as a "breeze", on May 31. Horse and rider were greeted by a large contingent of fans and press at about 6:30 a.m., and ran a half-mile (0.80 km) officially clocked at 47.69 seconds, a time described as "sharp" by the press, and "exactly what we wanted" by Alan Sherman. A clocker for the Daily Racing Form stated, "He's going to be tough to beat. I think we're going to have a Triple Crown winner."[152]" -could trim to:

"California Chrome galloped daily for up to 2 miles (3.2 km) and Delgado commented, "I can tell you he loves this track, and I don't see him (having) any problem getting a mile and a half."[150] Horse and rider were greeted by a large contingent of fans and press at about 6:30 a.m. The horse ran a half-mile (0.80 km) in a brisk 47.69 seconds, leading the clocker for the Daily Racing Form to state, "He's going to be tough to beat. I think we're going to have a Triple Crown winner."[152]

    • He galloped daily where zillions of press watched, it was only at the breeze with Espinoza that kazillions of fans showed up to. But trimming and tightening some. --MTBW
  • "Eleven horses entered the Belmont Stakes, and California Chrome drew post position 2, which was also the post position of Secretariat in the 1973 Belmont.[154] Ride On Curlin and General a Rod also entered;[h] these were the only other horses besides California Chrome to contest all three legs of the Triple Crown. Returning from the Kentucky Derby, having skipped the Preakness, were Commanding Curve, who was second in the Derby, along with Wicked Strong, Medal Count, and Samraat. "New Shooters" who had not run in either of the previous Triple Crown races included Tonalist, Commissioner, Matterhorn, and Matuszak.[155] Tonalist and Commissioner had run first and second at Belmont Park in the Peter Pan Stakes on May 10.[136] Matterhorn had run fourth in that race.[155] Statisticians noted that no Triple Crown-winning horse had competed against more than seven other horses in the Belmont, and only two, Seattle Slew and Citation, had faced that many.[156]

Prior to the race, the trainer of Wicked Strong, stated, "One of our horses will have to run the race of his life, and California Chrome is going to have to throw in a clunker."[157] Laura Hillenbrand, author of Seabiscuit: An American Legend, noting the "odd cast of characters around him," was a supporter.[110] Anticipating the possibility of a Triple Crown champion, several people connected to the last three Triple Crown winners announced plans to be at the Belmont, including 92-year-old Penny Chenery, owner of Secretariat; Patrice Wolfson, who co-owned Affirmed; and some of Seattle Slew's connections—trainer Billy Turner and co-owner Jim Hill. The jockeys of the three past winners, Steve Cauthen, Jean Cruguet, and Ron Turcotte, also announced they would attend. Cauthen, jockey of Affirmed, stated, "This horse has got a great chance of pulling it off," but added, "you never know, that's why they have to run the race."[158]" -this is really excessive wording I think I'd trim to:

"Eleven horses entered the Belmont Stakes, and California Chrome drew post position 2, which was also the post position of Secretariat in the 1973 Belmont.[154] Ride On Curlin and General a Rod also entered;[h] these were the only other horses besides California Chrome to contest all three legs of the Triple Crown. Anticipating the possibility of a Triple Crown champion, several people connected to the last three Triple Crown winners announced plans to be at the Belmont, including 92-year-old Penny Chenery, owner of Secretariat; Patrice Wolfson, who co-owned Affirmed; and some of Seattle Slew's connections—trainer Billy Turner and co-owner Jim Hill. The jockeys of the three past winners, Steve Cauthen, Jean Cruguet, and Ron Turcotte, also announced they would attend. Cauthen, jockey of Affirmed, stated, "This horse has got a great chance of pulling it off," but added, "you never know, that's why they have to run the race."[158]"

    • Chopped some of that, kept what I think was relevant. It was one of the "new shooters" who won (prompting Coburn's rant) and another who stepped on Chrome at the start. Take a look. --MTBW
  • "Sherman was relieved that the tendon injury was superficial, and when asked if the heel injury had cost the horse a chance to win, replied, "It couldn't have helped him any."[162] Sherman explained that he saw the horse throw his head up in the homestretch and knew that something was not right. He later speculated that the sand and dirt of the racetrack were causing pain in the open wound.[164] The following day, Sherman assured the press that both injuries would heal up, and that the heel injury was, luckily, not a quarter crack in the hoof.[165]" - could trim to

"Sherman speculated that the sand and dirt of the racetrack were causing pain in the open wound, and knew that something wasn't right when he saw the horse throw his head up in the homestretch. The following day, he assured the press that both injuries would heal up, and that the heel injury was, luckily, not a quarter crack in the hoof.[165]"

    • Diced and chopped a little, reworded. Better? --MTBW

That should be the bulk of it. If you can respond to most of those the article should read and flow a lot better I think without losing anything really vital. I'll support once it is condensed down further.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:14, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

  • @Dr. Blofeld: I'm whacking at the material, but on the ownership sections, maybe let's take that to the FAC talk and sort out if we have grounds to make it an independent article per my comments above. Montanabw(talk) 19:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: now at 44 kB (7700 words). per Dr. pda tool. Was 49K. Have chopped about 700-800 words. Montanabw(talk) 20:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

It's starting to look better. Sure, discuss that on the talk page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I posted the question of a spinoff to DAP racing at WP:Horse racing. If you can think of some other appropriate WP:GNG venues that aren't haunted by trolls, let me know. I'm very reluctant to chop too much unless it can be moved without being viewed as a Fork or a BIO1E thing. Montanabw(talk) 00:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda[edit]

Thanks for a detailed, informative article. A few comments for now:


  • I suggest a new paragraph for "When two years old", - I thought it was still about the owners.
    • Reworded; already am at four paragrpahs. Better? --MTBW
      • yes --GA


  • I don't like any image directly under a heading, and I think this one, showing the grown horse, would fit better in the next para about behaviour.
    • Blofeld just made me add a subheader, it will wind up under a third level heading now if I move it. Can you live with it where it's at? --MTBW
      • It's not a question of life and death, but the image of the grown horse - while he is just born - is strange, also traditional me still follows former imagelocation ideas. --GA
        • No baby pics are available with a free license. This one is a photo of the horse showing his friendly character; it's actually a crop of File:CalChrome and MD Gov.jpg but I chopped out the politicians, who needs 'em?  ;-) I can't really say in the caption, "see how friendly this horse is" because that's OR, but if a picture is worth 1000 words... ;-) I DID add some more dates. Montanabw(talk) 02:27, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
          • I moved it bit, revert if you don't like it ---GA
            • It's OK. If someone moves is back, that's OK too. As they say, "Whatever" ;-) --MTBW
a smiling elderly man in a gray suit, wearing sunglasses
Art Sherman, 2014
  • I tried to move Art the same way, and got his son right below (left) to look "inward". For the small pics, I suggest to just mention the year, not the race. Especially the son could be anywhere. Btw: "alt=a smiling elderly man" made me smile ;) ----GA


  • I almost feel that the owners deserve their own article. (Love DAP)
    • They could, but the WP:BIO1E bandits will probably AfD it. I don't need the drahmahz!  :-P --MTBW
      • with you on that --GA
  • How about dates with the quotes, for people who are not so familiar with race names? In general.
    • Will better wikilinking do the same? I tend to disfavor a wall of dates...? Ah! The quote boxes! OK, done! --MTBW
  • Same for images, in general.
    • Ditto? --MTBW
      • For both the above: linking helps me who can hover and see, - but asking the reader for an extra click is asking a lot. If I see a man, I would like to know if that photo is recent or twenty years old, - but it's also not a question of life and death. --GA
        • Added 2014 to some of the images, does that help? -MBBW
          • yes ---GA
  • The reactions to the Belmont are not easy to understand before we know more about it.
    • I could move the Coburn stuff down to the Belmont section. Give me a bit and see what you think. --MTBW
      • Good idea! --GA
        • Done, Better? --MTBW
          • yes ---GA

Need a break. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

See you tomorrow --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
back ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Early years

  • An image of the farm would be nice, ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Not impossible for me to grab a screenshot, I got File:Lucky Pulpit.jpg 01.png from here and they do have ranch shots. They show the place itself from about 0:20 to 0:53. See anything there worth trying to pull a still shot from? --MTBW
  • "racehorses such as two-time Breeders' Cup Classic winner Tiznow", racehorses such as two-time, what do you think of "racehorses such as Tiznow, a two-time Breeders' Cup Classic winner"?
    • OK. --MTBW
  • It's a bit confusing to me to first read about the 2010 breeding, then about the (failed) 2009, without indication of "previously", then 2014, then dream, then back to born.
    • Put 2009 and 2010 chronologically and threw the rest into a footnote. Better? --MTBW
      • Yes. Consider to move the Lucky Pulpit pic to here, show dad where he's mentioned first, ----GA
                • OK, did so, but now have a left-facing image under a level three header again. Hope you can live with that, as no good way to make 2 paras there, I don't think. (We could toss the "behavior" subheader, though...)--MTBW
  • Can the naming come sooner? Perhaps already in the Background section?
    • He didn't get his "official" name until 2013, just before he raced as a 2-year-old. I clarified the chronology. If you still think that paragraph could go up to the beginning of the background section, I can do it, but it would throw the timeline off - is is OK as is? --MTBW
      • yes ----GA
  • "Because many Thoroughbred trainers are unfamiliar with the Los Alamitos facility, the success of California Chrome, who was conditioned there, created good publicity for the track." - "Because"? not a reason.
    • Clarified. Any better? --MTBW
      • yes ----GA


Barefoot hoof, lateral view. Coronet band (1), walls (2), toe (3), quarter (4), heel (5), bulb (6), P2 (small pastern) (7 (comment: heels are a little bit too low)
A horse hoof that's healthier than the one in the chart above, does NOT have low heels
  • "low heels"?
    • Complex concept, let me think about it. I wish horse hoof was a better article, but I'll put up the photo they use to show you the parts and another one that I took of a healthier hoof. If I explain, perhaps you can help think of better wording: A horse's hoof is, basically, a gigantic fingernail that has to be trimmed periodically and the horseshoes repositioned. (see also farrier). Sometimes the hoof wears or grows unevenly and, on Thoroughbred race horses in particular (for reasons too complicated to explain here) their heels tend to grow slower that their toes, getting out of proportion and balance, which can make them go lame. Short of a dissertation on hoof care here's one, though, help me determine what would improve this and make it clearer. --MTBW
      • Follow up: The news stories all just say variations on "developed low heels." It's so common in Thoroughbreds, I'd be venturing into OR or SYNTH to explain what I know - any thoughts on how I can clarify without rousing the ALLCAPS police? --MTBW
        • What do you think of some of this in the hoof article, then link to the section? Or Wiktionaire? It's not a term I heard before. ----GA
            • Hoof does need work. Let me think about how much time I have. --MTBW

Fine story to the end. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC) End of round three ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Support, my points were addressed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Broken links
    • Fixed two now, will get the rest in a bit. --MBTW
  • Quotes should be cited immediately in the lead, even if cited later
    • Not my read of MOS, these are "scare quotes" indicative of neologisms more than people's direct quotations, but cite to the exact policy/guideline and I'll look at it. --MTBW
  • FN4: which Lexington?
  • Courier-Journal or The Courier-Journal? Herald-Leader or Lexington Herald-Leader? Baltimore Sun or The Baltimore Sun? Paulick Report or The Paulick Report?
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Be consistent in when you include locations for publications
    • Tossed them all --MTBW
  • FN19, 39, 98: publisher?
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Several LDR cite errors
    • Any places other than something already listed? If more errors than these say so. --MTBW
  • FN75, 160: work?
    • Fixed --MTBW
  • FN79: why include publisher here and not for other newspapers?
    • How about you reword that "FN79 is inconsistent because it lists publisher when others don't?" Tossed --MTBW
  • FN83: verify title spelling
    • You could also say, Title appears to have a typo. Fixed. --MTBW
  • FN82, 84: need endashes not hyphens
    • I think I fixed them but I honestly cannot distinguish a hyphen from an endash in the editing window, so any you want to fix yourself in the future, go for it. (No, still haven't had the cataract surgery yet) --MTBW
  • FN85: this doesn't match other Blood-Horse refs
    • Fixed--MTBW
  • Associated Press is an agency not an author
    • Well last FAC I had you were OK with that. And it isn't in the web template. So say what you think will fix it --MTBW
  • FN147: why no accessdate here when other newspapers have them?
    • That's snarky, just say "missing access date." Fixed --MTBW
  • Is Fox Sports a publisher or a work? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
    • That's a snarky question. Just point out the error. I made it a work, but whatever. You could have said "multiple Fox Sports refs - they are inconsistent if work or publisher" --MTBW
  • FN126: use work instead of publisher
    • Fixed --MTBW
    • @Nikkimaria:, I think all done, save for the couple I commented on. Your comments would be easier to fix if they were less cryptic in places and all issued with less condescension and sarcasm. I made a few simple suggestions above and will fix everything that you have flagged or comment further if I think it's fine. Montanabw(talk) 16:52, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • No condescension or sarcasm was meant: I phrase some points as questions because there are occasionally reasons to format things in a certain way, and I don't know whether you chose to do that deliberately or not. If you check the rest of the FAC page you'll find that I do this on many reviews. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Well, keep working on those people skills! As for here, did I fix everything that needed to be fixed? Montanabw(talk) 00:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
          • No. Broken links still there, still a number of LDR errors, still inconsistencies in publication titles (ex. The Courier-Journal in FN 32 and just Courier-Journal in 99), still inconsistencies in italicization (ex. ESPN italicized in 164 but not 139) - generally a number of inconsistencies needing correction. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Well, when you list the footnotes by number, that helps, because I honestly do not see "a number" of the errors sometimes, and it is truly a vision problem in part when scanning massive amounts of small text. (as my constant two-edit-to-fix-typo pattern shows). I know I fixed two broken links, I'll check the link to see if there are more? I also do not object if you want to make these minor fixes when you see them, might save time. Montanabw(talk) 19:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC) Follow up: I think I got all the broken links now, I had to purge your above link and reset, but now I think I have them all. Please advise if otherwise. Montanabw(talk) 22:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Still two dead: "As for Preakness stories..." and "Accidental Favorite". As to the rest, because many of the issues were with consistency rather than accuracy, you will need to check my changes to make sure you're okay with the options I chose. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll figure out those (why they don't archive those with redirect links is beyond me, sigh). As for the refs, I really think must of that is an issue of style over substances, so your version is fine. Montanabw(talk) 20:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • @Nikkimaria:, I think all done now- did wayback links to the two dead ones. Anything else you can find? Montanabw(talk) 20:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Crisco comments - This will quite likely take me a few days. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree with the comments above that the owners are likely notable enough for an article. (And I think "Dumb Ass Partners" in a DYK will be quite interesting).
        • If all of you help me if the deletionists attack, I'm in. stay tuned. --MTBW
    • I feel as though the lede could be trimmed a little. It is 662 words, or 3,904 characters with spaces. That is almost 10% of the article. Perhaps tighten the prose and remove information not all that pertinent to Chrome? (For instance, the meaning of DAP and the men's wives also being active in racing)
          • Reasonable. I'll see what I can do. --MTBW
    • All of this information about Lucky Pulpit shouldn't follow a "who" construction, I think.
        • Horses are living creatures not inanimate things, and in particular, named creatures are individuals. I loathe using "it" under such circumstances. I'm actually rather fierce about that.  ;-) --MTBW
    • the Martins - who are they?
      • Perry Martin and his wife, Denise -- where was that unclear? I'll fix. --MTBW
    • Wouldn't there be enough on Love the Chase to have an article on her (and thus save us another hundred words here?)
        • No. California Chrome is her only racing foal, the other two are still babies. We DID create a new article on Lucky Pulpit, however
    • Why the white space in #Behavior?
            • Was trying to keep photo from bleeding into next section. I'm going to move the Lucky Pulpit photo down, now that the other has been tossed, so that issue should be resolved. --MTBW
    • <shudder>Marriage info? Anniversaries? Pretty darn irrelevant to Chrome.
      • Background on owners, but main issue was that Coburn shot off his mouth at the Preakness, saying the Martins were skipping the race because they got pisssed at how rudely they were treated at Churchill Downs, the Martins said it was just their anniversary. But per above, I'll figure out how to trim it. --MTBW
    • Perry Martin performed testing and analysis work, including work on Air Force weapons systems. - redundant to what you already wrote above
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • A lot of the information about the owners jumps from place to place. I'd expect their year of marriage to be before the mention of their anniversary, etc.
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • Lots of sentences beginning "He" in the paragraph beginning "Steve Coburn"
        • OK, will fix--MTBW
    • Tiznow - worth a redlink?
      • Hm. He should have his own article, won the Breeders' Cup Classic. So yes. --MTBW
    • imprinted - worth linking?
      • Yes, not all people know what that is. --MTBW
    • they had kept horses at Hollywood Park, but when it closed in December 2013, Los Alamitos Race Course picked up some of the racing trainers who had stabled horses there, including Sherman Training Stables. Los Alamitos is better-known as a track for Quarter Horse racing, but took over some of Hollywood Park's Thoroughbred racing dates in 2014. - Some redundancy (implicit) that could be worked through with reworking
        • OK, will fix, open to specific suggestions--MTBW
    • Is his early life and training quite "background" information? In an article on the horse, I'd expect such information to actually be rather important. Section may need to be retitled.
        • "Background" is sort of the standard header for these sections throughout the WP Horse racing articles. Not opposed to something better, but it would be different from the other several thousand horse "biographies" that have this section title. --MTBW
    • Skipping ahead and looking at the nearly incomprehensible (to me, as I my first response remains "who cares", although I know on the logical level why it's necessary for the article) Pedigree section, I wonder why the information on sire and dam cannot be focused here instead.
              • Also standard layout for horse racing biographies, summary of horse's over all life other than race record at start, with pedigree at end. The pedigree analysis may make non-horse-owner's eyes glaze over, which is why it is toward the end, but keep in mind that I have the same reaction to baseball statistics and car engine specifications. --MTBW
    • If he is 4 × 5 to Northern Dancer, then shouldn't this inbreeding be marked in the (considerably more simple to understand) table?
      • Pedigree chart in article only goes back four generations, but can do it once, though possibly confusing without the other ? Thoughts? --MTBW
    • The woman in tinfoil and the man with the ass tattoo... wouldn't they both be WP:UNDUE here, considering how many Chromies there are?
        • Demonstrative examples of particularly dedicated fans! --MTBW
    • grumbling - don't find this very encyclopedic
      • Suggest preferred phrase: "Tempest in a teapot" ? "whining" ?" "Kvetching"? "Public is bored and needed to be upset over something?" (grin) --MTBW
    • had little patience the horse's story - missing something?
        • DeFord's radio commentary positively dripped with sarcasm... he said, " the whole thing is a ridiculous reverie", want to present balance and convey the tone of the NOT-Chromies - DeFord's piece was the most striking. Suggested way to rephrase?
          • I was thinking of the fact that "with" seems to be missing between "patience" and "the horse's". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
                  • @Crisco 1492: for little typos and other small stuff, I don't mind if you just tweak them of pop in hidden text that pinpoints a problem. Faster for both of us than telling me to. Sometimes I've stared at an article so long that I'm a little dense, as my comments to Nikkimaria's review may indicate. If you actually mess up something, I'll tweak your tweaks, but also take it as evidence that something was screwy and needed fixing Montanabw(talk) 04:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
    • As I've expressed elsewhere, I'm concerned about the length of this article. California Chrome likely has several further seasons to go through, and yet this is already longer than many biographies of humans. I'd recommend a very critical reread of the article, to see what can be pruned
        • Working on it, per Blofeld's comments above, I've already chopped about a thousand words so far. --MTBW
    • I'll try and do the racing career tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It was the last race for Alberto Delgado as the horse's jockey, but Sherman did not link the horse's performance to the jockey, stating that California Chrome was still growing and learning how to be a racehorse. - Any way to avoid "jockey ... jockey"?
    • Will tweak, stay tuned. --MTBW
  • the only other horses to win both the Santa Anita Derby and the Kentucky Derby were I'll Have Another, Sunday Silence, Winning Colors, Affirmed, and Majestic Prince. - That's a lot of horses to use "only" for
    • five in 140 years?? --MTBW
  • schooled in the saddling paddock, - Schooled?
    • PING FOR ANSWER: In that case, it means they led him around in circles to get him used to the place. "Schooled" is a term of art in horse land for training -- how can I fix this for you? --MTBW
      • If it's in the glossary, linked there. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Who tag added
  • Previously, Charlie Whittingham held the record when at age 76 he trained Sunday Silence to win the 1989 Kentucky Derby. - If this should be included at all, it should be as a footnote. It's not really pertinent to the narrative
    • Big news at the time, given Art Sherman's age and how famous Whittingham was in horse racing circles...could live with efn but Whittingham was a big deal. --MTBW
  • California Chrome shipped on May 12 via air to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes, traveling on the same plane as the other two horses from the Derby to also run in the Preakness - I sense this could probably be tightened a bit (maybe "California Chrome, together with two other Derby racers, shipped on May 12 to Baltimore for the 2014 Preakness Stakes"
    • Will tweak --MTBW
  • Do you have the script to check for duplicated links? I sense you need it here.
    • PING FOR ANSWER: Don't have the script. Is there a toollabs link I can run? --MTBW
  • security - I'd call this overlinking
    • Heh, depends on the reader -- you wanted clarification of "schooled"! (smile) --MTBW
      • Physical security is general. Schooled in the most literal sense clearly wouldn't apply to a horse. Unless Mr. Ed went through Grade 3. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In search of interesting stories, the press ran a piece on the Toner stable's barn cat, Mademoiselle. - I see where you're going here, but ... seriously.
    • It was THAT BAD! The press scrutiny was pretty ridiculous. I didn't mention the stories on the groom, the exercise rider's kid, how Ride on Curlin's trainer and Sherman were chanting "1-2, 1-2" in the bar at night... really, there was restraint!  ;-) --MTBW
  • moved in and accidentally stepped on California Chrome's heel as both horses broke from the gate. - Accidentally? What does this add? One would expect sentience a prerequisite for deliberately doing something, and thus also the corollary
    • It's wasn't because he stepped on himself, which was the original theory, and it also wasn't because anyone (jockey, gate assistant, etc.) deliberately did something...nor did the other horse misbehave as far as anyone can tell, it was just a "shit happens" thing. Horses CAN do weird stuff on the track - not to screw over another horse on purpose, but they can dislike the jockey, spook at something, stand funny in the gate... --MTBW
  • luckily, - feels like editorializing
    • Clarified. --MTBW
  • Very well written, although pruning is still possible. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Pruning some more, will take me a couple days to whack at it now that I have DAP racing live. Montanabw(talk) 08:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
    Alright... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Froggerlaura comments
    • The La Troinne photo was a copy vio, so had to tag for deletion at Commons. Stay away from anything from the non-existent "Gooreen collection" as most of the photos are copyrighted and taken from elsewhere on the internet. Froggerlaura ribbit 15:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
        • OK. There is a "fair use" exception, but if these are controversial, I'll avoid those. Can you find anything "legal" on any other horses in his pedigree this side of the Darley Arabian? Swaps maybe? --MTBW

Thanks Crisco and Froggerlaura, I'll address these issues and get back to you. Montanabw(talk) 17:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

To all: DAP Racing now live. I need to tweak it some more, anyone else is welcome to dive in over there (no GA/FA yet, DYK hook ideas welcome at talk there) but should soon be able to chop some stuff from 'Chrome. Give me about 24 hours to digest edits and let me have new eyes on the article. Montanabw(talk) 03:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

  • @Dr. Blofeld:, @Crisco 1492:, @Nikkimaria:, @Go Phightins!: All right everyone: It's now whacked down to 41 kB (7152 words) of readable prose size. That's down from 48K and over 8400 words. I've had enough time and distance now to see some of the things you wanted me to chop and I think I managed to agree with many of your suggestions. I also moved around a little bit of stuff to improve flow, but the substantive content should be all the same. The biggest thing I did was to put the "Behavior" subsection at the end of the background section; seemed a better lead in to his racing career. Y'all realize I created four other articles as spinoffs from this one? (Art Sherman, Nasal strips, Templeton Thompson and DAP Racing)? And, @Gerda Arendt:, I see you have supported but see if my changes raise any concerns for you; also note I linked to hoof anatomy on that "low heels" bit you wondered about. (And Crisco, I did chop the bit on the barn cat...just for you!) Montanabw(talk) 06:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

It's looking better, giving a read through now. Lead could still use a trim. I think you could remove "Both the mare and foal were required to stay in a stall for a month while she underwent medical treatment, during which California Chrome imprinted on humans owing to the extra attention he received from people as they cared for his dam. His people-focused attitude was later viewed as a useful trait in his training as a racehorse." from the lead though as it comes across as a bit trivial to read so soon in the article. Also "He is owned by Perry Martin from Yuba City, California, and Steve Coburn of Topaz Lake, Nevada, who named their partnership DAP Racing, standing for "Dumb Ass Partners"—a tongue-in-cheek response to a passerby who questioned their wisdom in purchasing Love the Chase.", I'm not sure you really need to state what it stands for in the lead, "He is owned by Perry Martin from Yuba City, California, and Steve Coburn of Topaz Lake, Nevada, who formed the partnership DAP Racing" should suffice, now you have an article explaining it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Hmm. The lead now is about 200 characters shorter than was the lead for Mucho Macho Man, which was (as you pointed out) shorter. Someone else, somewhere else, felt something on babyhood was necessary to properly summarize the article. I'll chop, but can you help me defend if others feel differently? --MTBW
    OTOH, the "Dumb Ass Partners" thing is sort of a big deal, all the 'horse of the people" thing and all that. I believe it is important enough to keep up front. --MTBW

"The Martins, from Chicago, shared an interest in horse racing.[19] They moved to California in 1987, where Perry Martin was employed as a metallurgist by the Air Force and Denise briefly job shadowed a racehorse trainer in the Sacramento area.[19] Today they own and operate Martin Testing Laboratories (MTL).[22] MTL tests items such as automobile airbags and medical equipment. Perry Martin described the items MTL tests as "the kind where somebody dies if something goes wrong".[23] He also wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published in 1999.[24] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[18]

Steve Coburn, characterized by the media as "loquacious",[25][26] describes himself and his wife Carolyn as "just everyday people".[15][18] He grew up in central California and was familiar with horses, herded cattle at a feedlot,[11] participated in rodeos, and worked at some ranching jobs.[27] He now is a press operator for a company that makes magnetic strips.[16] Carolyn Coburn retired in March 2014 from a career working in payroll in the health care industry.[18] Carolyn introduced Steve to horse racing, and when he was looking for a tax write-off, she encouraged him to buy into a racing syndicate instead of purchasing a small airplane.[14"

This is still way more than you really need now you've got the sub article. You could certainly remove " Perry Martin described the items MTL tests as "the kind where somebody dies if something goes wrong".[23] He also wrote the Electronic Failure Analysis Handbook, published in 1999.[24] Denise Martin is MTL's senior chemist, managing the company's fatigue testing and thermal analytics.[18]" without losing anything really of value about the horse... I'd change it to "Today they own and operate Martin Testing Laboratories (MTL), which tests items such as automobile airbags and medical equipment" and remove the rest.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

  • That's doable, thought the "somebody dies" quote of his was repeated in virtually every article the profiled the owners, just saying - chopped most, reworded a wee bit to put back in some older material that was ther pre-quotation --MTBW

Support. I've been through the article, nose to tail, a few times now (and recently again) and fixed everything that struck me or put my nit-pickery in commented out notes that Montana addressed every time. I think it's a thoroughbred article, neigh, dam excellent, and having nothing left to nag about; I am happy to support.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Support - Much better. Trimming a bit about Sherman and DAP is probably preferable, but at least I can handle this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:Owner_DAP_back.svg: source? The front design is PD, but this is moving towards creative work. (And the garment itself appears to be a front view, not a back...). Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The Fifth Element[edit]

Nominator(s): Freikorp (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the 1997 award winning science fiction blockbuster film. I overhauled this article in 2013, initiating a successful nomination for good article status. Having significantly expanded the article again since then, I now believe it meets featured article requirements. This is my first FAC nomination, so I apologise if I have overlooked any issue. Freikorp (talk) 17:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Eric Corbett 20:50, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Are you certain that Le Cinquième Élément is the correct French title? I was taught that capital letters in French don't take accents, and the title seems to be given as Le Cinquième élément elsewhere.
    • You're right! Changed.
  • The lead has "special forces Major", whereas the Plot section has "major in the special forces". Is it to be major or Major?
    • Changed to 'major'.
  • "... destroys an attacking Earth battleship". What is the battleship attacking? Is it a naval battleship?
    • Clarified that it is a spaceship, and that it was attacking the 'Great Evil'.
  • "The current Mondoshawan contact, priest Vito Cornelius, informs President Lindberg of the history of the Great Evil ...". Who is President Lindberg?
    • Clarified that it is the president of earth.
  • "The Diva is killed ...". Why the Diva? In the previous paragraph she was introduced as "Diva Plavalaguna", implying that Diva was her first name.
    • I've changed all references to the character to her last name, which already appeared once anyway, so now it is consistent.

Eric Corbett 21:24, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Quick image check - Poster image is fine, the file File:Valerian_FifthElement2.jpg is a good use within the article but I would suggest making sure the caption makes reference back to the French work it was inspired by, reflecting some of that in the image rational (perhaps including the ref for that in the ratioanle page). --MASEM (t) 21:46, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Done. :)
      • Thank you both for your comments, and thanks for your copyedits Eric. I have now addressed each issue that was brought up. Freikorp (talk) 02:09, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Support from Mirokado[edit]

I've always enjoyed watching this film, but I must confess that the plot has seemed rather to interrupt the 3D-traffic scenes! Perhaps I will pay more attention after having read this article. I have not noticed any omissions and have only a few comments:

  • I tweaked the article a bit to remove a couple of reported citation problems. While doing that I noticed that there are two citations to Valerian: The New Future Trilogy, which do not contain equivalent information: one has editors, the other has a translator and a series parameter. It is probably better to make them consistent, unless for example only parts of the book were translated.
  • Thanks, i've merged two reference to make them consistent.
  • The citations have a format delimited by full stops and ending with a full stop. The short-form references should also end with a full stop for consistency: "Hayward, p. 91." etc.
  • Done.
  • Plot: Please see WP:PLOTPRESENT: "As key characters are introduced in the plot of a film or play with a known cast, list the actors' names in parentheses after them, Character (Actor), where applicable." This is done in the lead for Willis and Jovovich, but not in the plot for the other characters. To make the plot section self-sufficient I would do it for those two as well, particularly as Jovovich' character is not named in the lead.
  • Done.
  • I was a bit surprised that Besson's book The Story of the Fifth Element: The Adventure and Discovery of a Film is only "further reading". Is it too much a primary source to be acceptable as a reference? Does it have nothing to add to coverage of the subject?

--Mirokado (talk) 19:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The book was listed in the bibliography when I found the article, though it was not used anywhere as an inline citation, so I moved it to 'Further reading'. I considered buying the book to use it as a reference, as i'm sure it could add to the subject, however, it is a collector's item and out of print. The cheapest I could find a second hand copy on was $300 [2], a tad more than what i'm willing to spend on my hobby of editing wikipedia. Would it be more appropriate to move it back to the bibliography, even though it is not used as an inline citation? Should we delete it due to it looking out of place? Or do you think given the circumstances it can work where it is? Thanks for your comments Mirakado. Freikorp (talk) 03:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    Har, I didn't check availability before commenting! It's better to leave it as it is so the referencing in the article is clear. --Mirokado (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. Just checking the references again I noticed a few other minor issues, then I can support this article. --Mirokado (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Current refs 10, 18, 60, 68, 73, 97: citations add outer double quotes, so inner quotes in the title need to be single
  • Current ref 27: We normally transform titles to title case rather than retaining all-caps words
  • Current refs 62, 69, 71, 81: (magazine) seems redundant here, three times a wl disambiguator so a pipe would be necessary, once not linked, in that case "Discover Magazine" is how they refer to themselves if clarification is needed.

--Mirokado (talk) 04:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Done, done and done :). Thanks again for your observations. Freikorp (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
    You are welcome. Supporting now. --Mirokado (talk) 12:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Alsos Mission[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

This article was extremely popular when it appeared on the front page as a DYK. I think it will prove equally popular as a TFA. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. The Germany subsection seems a bit long, but I don't really know how you'd subdivide it. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 14:25, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotcheck not done

  • "The cellar itself was not blown up, because this would have meant the destruction of the Church and Castle located above the cellar." - source?
    • Added by a German Wikipedian. Removed until I find a source. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Hinsley et al: British Intelligence is a title, not a series; what is current presented as the title is the volume name
  • Mahoney: don't need spaces around dash in dates, don't need both "thesis" and "dissertation", and how does this meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I found Mahoney on the shelf at the ADFA library. It was academically reviewed and is widely cited in the literature. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)[edit]

Nominator(s): --Jakob (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about one of the main tributaries of the Susquehanna River in Columbia County, Pennsylvania. It started out as a two-sentence stub and has been steadily improving since 2012. After becoming a GA in early 2013, it failed FAC twice in mid-2013 and early 2014, mostly due to prose concerns. By the third FAC in May, this article was getting close to the standards (mainly due to work by the GOCE), but the prose still required more work. Now, I think that the prose finally meets the prose standards for FA. I am also certain that the other standards are met, as no major issues with these have been raised in recent FACs. Hopefully, it'll pass this time. --Jakob (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Image review
  • Just the one question, really. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • @Crisco 1492: Not sure if there is a base map or not. Kmusser would know, as he created/uploaded it. --Jakob (talk) 19:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There is not a base map, I created that map specifically for this article. Sources for the individual data elements of the map are on the image page. Kmusser (talk) 20:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Alright, then the images look fine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

@Jakec: Hello, Jakob -- Your article looked interesting, so I decided to read it and see if I could help. It is well written for the most part. I just made a few minor copy-edits to correct spelling and punctuation, and add a few missing words. I rearranged the words in a few sentences to make them more concise and to improve sentence flow. There are just a few issues I'd like to mention here:

1) The last sentence in the section Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)#Oxbow lake is:

"Japanese knotweed has been seen near Interstate 80 on the northern edges of the Turkey Hill Oxbow"

and the last sentence in the section Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)#Biology is:

"There are populations of Japanese knotweed, an invasive plant, along the creek and its tributaries south of Pennsylvania Route 118".

I'm pointing this out just in case this might be a duplication of information. If not, that's fine.

2) In the second paragraph in the section Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)#Geology is the following sentence:

"There are numerous deposits of iron ore and limestone in the lower sections of the Fishing Creek valley and also some deposits of marble along it".

The pronoun "it" at the end of the sentence is ambiguous. It could refer to "valley", but perhaps also to "creek". If it means "Fishing Creek valley", then I suggest the following re-wording, which will eliminate any ambiguity:

"There are numerous deposits of iron ore and limestone, as well as some deposits of marble, in the lower sections of the Fishing Creek valley."
@Jakec: (Did you see this?) You didn't like this wording? If you don't like "as well as", then at least remove "also" and just use "and". "Also" and "and" are too close in meaning to use both.
If there is no real reason to separate marble from iron ore and limestone, why not just make it a list of three?
"There are numerous deposits of iron ore, limestone and marble in the lower sections of the Fishing Creek valley".
It's more concise than the other versions. CorinneSD (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

3) The second and third sentences in Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)#Recreation are:

"There are other tracts of public property along the creek, one of which, called the Power Dam, is 2 miles (3.2 km) upstream of Benton. It covers 19 acres (7.7 ha) and stretches for 2900 feet (880 meters) of Fishing Creek, and features the remains of a concrete dam."

Usually, when one uses the verb "features", what usually follows is an interesting or attractive highlight. "The remains of a concrete dam" does not conjure up an image of something attractive. I suppose it could be interesting, though. If you're happy with it, that's fine. It's just an unusual use of the verb. (There is another example with the same construction a few sentences below this.)

4) In the second-to-last paragraph of the article is the following sentence:

"The hiking trail Waterfall Wonderland: Big, Twin, Lewis, and Sullivan Falls is described as "a place of almost mystical beauty" by Jeff Mitchell in his book Hiking the Endless Mountains: Exploring the Wilderness of Northeastern Pennsylvania".
There is something that is not clear in this sentence. I suppose "Water Wonderland" is the name of the hiking trail.

However, what follows, a colon (:) and "Big, Twin, Lewis, and Sullivan Falls" is described as..." does not make sense. Perhaps there are some words missing following "Waterfall Wonderland". Perhaps it should read,

"The hiking trail Waterfall Wonderland, which affords views of Big, Twin, Lewis, and Sullivan Falls, is described as..." CorinneSD (talk) 22:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@CorinneSD: Thanks for the comments.
  1. It's not duplication. PA 118 is near the source and the oxbow is near the mouth.
  2. I've changed the wording.
  3. Changed features to contains.
  4. I replaced that sentence with your suggested sentence.
--Jakob (talk) 23:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@CorinneSD: I've added in your suggested sentence about iron ore, limestone, and marble. --Jakob (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Jakob I saw your edits. I have just learned from another editor with whom I have been working on another article that it is customary for the original poster to strike through comments raising issues which the poster feels have been resolved, so I've done that, above. The article looks good now. CorinneSD (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Battle of Öland[edit]

Nominator(s): Peter Isotalo 05:33, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Hot on the trail of Kronan (ship) (TFA 23 June) comes the battle it sank in. This article shares content with the article on Kronan, but it has more details on the aftermath as well as the Danish and Dutch perspectives. It's a relatively minor battle and far less notable than Køge Bay later in the Scanian War. But it was significant for since it paved the way for the Danish invasion of Scania and the resulting Dano-Swedish slug match, including the battle of Lund, the bloodiest battle ever fought in Scandinavia.

It's currently a GA and recently became an A-class WP:MILHIST article. I've had some very nice help from both processes and I think it's up to par to become an FA. I'm looking forward to a thorough review.

Peter Isotalo 05:33, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments and support from the Princess of Science[edit]

@Peter Isotalo: Hello there! I'm Parcly Taxel and you're hereby invited to comment on fluorine's FAC. I am part of the WikiProject on chemical elements.

For the length, media, lead, structure, citations, stability and neutrality (points 1B, 1D, 1E, 2, 3 and 4 of the FA criteria) they're all fine – this is a well-documented historical event from a long time ago, and it even comes with paintings! As well as that, the overall structure is all chronological and neat, delving into details here and there to reinforce the points made, but not too much so as to diverge from the central topic. The prose and grammar (1A) are impeccable. I couldn't "stop" reading the article, there were no bumps, I just kept going like I was hypnotised (except for the list, which is clearly allowed by the MOS anyway). Finally (1C), how many dubious sources can I count? Zero. It's short, sweet, consistent and wrapped in a package of cuteness and terseness. What do you get, Peter, for doing all this work? A pony and a support. Parcly Taxel 06:13, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the support. I should add that I've had help-a-plenty with fine-tuning the prose, so kudos to everyone who has contributed.
And yay for ponies!
Peter Isotalo 09:58, 7 July 2014 (UTC)


In general, a comprehensive and well-referenced article that meets the FAC as far as I can tell. However, there are some minor details that I would like to address:

  • As the date of the battle is according to the Julian calender, I would suggest to add the Georgian date as well (since at least one participant used it at the time)
  • Also Charles CI should be linked in the lede.
  • In the chapter Background, I am not sure whether wages is the appropriate term for soldiers' pay - if that is what is referred to.
  • Since the Sound Toll was a Danish institution, I am not convinced that the English fleet was sent to "keep it out of Danish control". The English wanted it gone, at least at the time.
  • "the war revealed" - I assume it refers to the Danish-Swedish war of 1657-8, not the Scanian War mentioned earlier.
  • The Holy Roman Empire is suddenly involved. Maybe a sentence or two might be added how that came to be. And this might include a mention of the Franco-Dutch war going on at the time.
  • In the chapter "Prelude" the Danish fleet is mentioned sailing from Gotland (Visby), which was last mentioned being ceded to Sweden by Denmark. It seems they somehow got it back.
  • The two Swedish vessels mentioned in the first paragraph were actually taken by Brandenburg/Prussian warships. They were however not involved in either battle, but it might be worth mentioning.
  • In the chapter "Forces" the numbers of guns differ from the ones given in "Battle of Møn", although the sources remain the same (eg Churprindsen had 68 at Öland and 74 at Møn). Incidentally, Zettersten was published in 1903 according to the bibliography, and in 1997 according to the reference. Which is it?

ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 15:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I've been a tad busy with switching jobs, but I'll get cracking on updates later today. I'll address two issues right now:
  • First sentence of "Prelude" mentions the Danes capturing Gotland. Could it be made clearer?
  • The battle of Møn was a year later. Ships might have been up-gunned. Or it might be a completely different ship. Either way, that's what the sources say. I Fixed Zettersten, though.
Peter Isotalo 06:13, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
@ÄDA - DÄP:, I specified[3] who captured what at Bornholm (it wasn't just the Prussians). I forgot to point out that I added info on the motivations of Emperor Leopold I.
Peter Isotalo 13:52, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I copyedited the article per my copyediting disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 16:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The background section covers the Scanian war in two different parts; one directly under the background section, and later under the title Scanian war, with an interlude about the state of the navies in between. This should be rearranged to be clearer.
  • The entire background is also very much written from a Swedish perspective. It would be good to expand it to cover the Danish and Dutch situation as well. In particular, it would be worth noting how the Dutch (and English) had a long standing strategy of trying to balance Sweden and Denmark against each other (but more importantly to try to control France!), which had started much earlier and would continue through the Great Northern War.
  • The aftermath section could also mention the naval reforms that were made in Sweden after the war.

Andejons (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The awkward order of sections in the background is fixed.
I'm looking for suitable sources regarding the Danish foreign policy situation, but Dutch and English foreign policies seem off-topic to me. The Dutch were auxilliaries of Denmark and the English never even fought. Besides, there's already content about the reasons for Dutch and English involvement. In an FAC of Scanian War it would be quite appropriate with a brief summary, but this is a single battle of that war which in itself part of the Franco-Dutch War.
I added some information about the founding of Karlskrona, but as with the foreign policy, is this really relevant in this article? It would be either the Scanian War article or Køge Bay, not Öland.
Peter Isotalo 08:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I seem to have missed this reply. The first point is OK now, and the second has been addressed below; I'm satisfied with the background; England was mostly an aside that I thought could be easily included together with the Netherlands since they had similar aims and policies.
The naval reforms were not only the new naval base, but also the new allotment system. I agree that there is no need to cover this in any depth: a sentence or two should be enough.
Andejons (talk) 07:08, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


It's a lovely article. I will probably support once User:Andejons's points are answered. Good work! --John (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Jakec[edit]

Mostly a decent article, but a few things need fixing before I can support (most are minor).

  • In the lead, "Just as the battle began, the Swedish flagship Kronan sank with the loss of almost its entire crew, including the Admiral of the Realm and commander of the Swedish navy, Lorentz Creutz" makes it sound like the loss of the entire crew sank, not that the entire crew sank. Suggest "Just as the battle began, the Swedish flagship Kronan sank, killing almost all of its crew, including the Admiral of the Realm and commander of the Swedish navy, Lorentz Creutz"
  • Is there any information on how many combatants there were on the Dutch side?
  • Not really sure what the sentence "By early 1672 Swedish relations with France had improved and an alliance with the most powerful state in Europe was joined" means.
  • "After about an hour-and-a-half to two hours of hard fighting Svärdet's mainmast went overboard and Uggla had to strike his colors (surrender) to Tromp". Just saying surrender would be fine.
  • "Despite the astounding success, several allied officers were displeased with the conduct of their forces." Is there a source for the claim "astounding"?
  • Finally, one comment on the structure/balance of the article. It seems that there's a lot of background and I can't see how most of it ties in with the main event. The battle section has the opposite problem: comparatively little information. It's my opinion that the event section of an article on an event should generally be the largest section, while the background and aftermath sections should be smaller or at least approximately the same size.

--Jakob (talk) 19:24, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Good points regarding prose. There aren't really that much more to add about the battle, though. I generelly agree about the balance of content, but it will always depend on the event. There are no simply no blow-by-blow accounts of this particular battle. The info about the proceedings of the commission also ties in to the explanation of the battle.
I haven't seen any estimates of Dutch or Danish number of men, but I'll double-check my refs.
Peter Isotalo 06:13, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I think this[4] should address your other concerns.
Figures for the manpower of the allies fleet seems to be very elusive. It doesn't seem to be specified even in Barfod (1997).
Peter Isotalo 12:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
@Peter Isotalo: Sorry it took this long to get back. It kept slipping my mind to reply. The prose is good now, and I'm fine with the shortness of the battle section and the lack of info on the number of men since there aren't sources to support extra info. I still think the background section is too long for the rest of the article. Even shortening it by about 30% would be a great improvement. BTW I have an open FAC if you're interested: Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Fishing Creek (North Branch Susquehanna River)/archive4. --Jakob (talk) 13:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Here are two other battle FAs with similar or more extensive backgrounds: battle for Henderson Field and battle of the Bismarck Sea. They have more info on the action itself, but that's because they're blessed with highly detailed, modern sources. The relative importance of those battles is comparable to this one. And andejons is asking for more background above. I could very well be wrong, but both of you obviously can't be right at the same time. So how do we solve this?
Peter Isotalo 18:25, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll defer to andejons since I am not familiar with this type of article. Support. --Jakob (talk) 12:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I actually wouldn't mind if some of the material was cut, but it should be rewritten to cover at least Denmark and Sweden on more equal terms; if the policies of Sweden leading up to the war is covered, the same should be true for Denmark. I think the background would gain from a rewrite; it comes from an article dealing more with Swedish matters and it shows. I think the second paragraph, and the sentences leading into it, could be cut completely without the article suffering. The second Dano-Swedish is mostly interesting in this context for what it reveals about Dutch policies, but it is not as necessary to know the details of it as the fact that Sweden had grown at the expense of Denmark and that the Danes were looking for a chance to take back what had been lost.
Andejons (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I found Dyrvik (1998) today. How's this?
Peter Isotalo 22:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I think that's much better balanced. There are a couple of things that could still be cut, but it does a much better job of explaining why there was a war and why the Dutch were allied with the Danes.
Andejons (talk) 06:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Excellent. Do you feel there's need for further cuts for FA status?
Peter Isotalo 07:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
No, there is a sentence or two that I believe could be cut if you want to shorten it further, but it seems rather more well-balanced now. I did find another thing, though. In the battle section, the text seems to contradict itself "Several Swedish ships attempted to assist Uggla, but they were in a lee position and could not provide effective support [...] Only Hieronymus, Neptunus and Järnvågen, an armed merchantman, had tried to support Uggla."
Andejons (talk) 19:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Should be clarified now.[5]
Peter Isotalo 15:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • Map and sailing order could both be larger
  • File:Ortus-imperii-suecorum.png (map source): were any pre-existing images used to create this one? Where did this map get its data from?
  • File:Svenska_flottans_seglingsordning_1675.jpg: possible to translate the image description? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:30, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I pretty much always go for default size, so I don't have a sense of what's appropriate. Would you mind doing the size tweaks to what you feel is better?
  • I don't know exactly what this is based on, but it matches the sources I've added. As pointed out in the FAC of Kronan, it's a very standard map of the territorial expansion of Sweden during it's time as a Great Power.
  • Added image stranslation.[6]
Peter Isotalo 12:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


Dean of the Chemistry Department: Parcly Taxel (+R8R Gtrs) 04:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Fluorine. Atomic number 9. The lightest halogen, most reactive element, an extreme challenge to isolate… yet it is found everywhere from toothpaste to uranium enrichment plants. I've been working from the suggestions of FAC 3 and Sandbh, fixing the article refs and performing a whole-article copyedit. I've also introduced a few new references to fill in unreferenced statement gaps. So here we go. Fourth time lucky, eh? Flevoland Parcly Taxel 04:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Harvard errors (resolved)[edit]

The HarvErrors script suggests that 21 of the references listed in the Indexed references section are not cited. These should be deleted or moved to a Further reading section.Aa77zz (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Done in double quick time. Parcly Taxel 11:32, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Still one to sort out: Audi, G.; Bersillon, O.; Blachot, J.; Wapstra, A. H. (2003). --Mirokado (talk) 23:48, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
That is not an error. I used the {{NUBASE 2003}} template in the citation, which HarvErrors mistakes for a redundant citation when in fact it is cited in the Isotopes section. Parcly Taxel 00:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I have fixed the template and the article. --Mirokado (talk) 12:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

John (support)[edit]

I have never seen the word monoisotopy before. Is it a real word? --John (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure it is. @R8R Gtrs: mentioned it in the article's talk page as part of his pre-FAC check, all but one of whose suggestions I've weaved into the article. Parcly Taxel 23:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you sure? It doesn't seem to exist on the Internet except on a couple of Wikipedia articles. --John (talk) 08:45, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Even I think "monoisotopy" is a highly technical term. It's been swapped out now. Parcly Taxel 10:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I just copied the words from the part of the article I quoted. I am clearly not to be the judge of how Englsih words are formed/used, since I wasn't born in any English-speaking country, and I haven't lived in any, nor am I now.--R8R (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I've taken it out. Here's another nitpick:

Annotated periodic table colored mostly gray and green
Periodic table colored by how elements are treated in this article.
  Noble gases
  Unknown properties

What is this table actually for? It does not mention halogens, though they are discussed in the article and its subject is one. Are noble gases also non-metals? Etc. --John (talk) 09:31, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a byproduct of the cumulative edits between the last FAC 3 years prior and now. From what you've said I also think that noble gases should come before nonmetals in the compounds section. That has been done, along with the legend's removal: the latter is all too redundant. Parcly Taxel 10:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
This table is for a clearer difering the sets of elements discussed under each subheader. For example, antimony is mentioned among nonmetals, even though it is chemically closer to metals. The reader is explained what the borders between groups of elements under each header are via that table. Earler, those unobvious parts were explained in a note; that note is gone now for some reason. I'll get it back, compare with what we have now. Also, regarding the categories of the picture: each category of elements on the picture (metals, nonmetals, noble gases, hydrogen, carbon) coresponds to a category described in a subsection (Metals, Other nonmetals, Noble gases, Hydrogen, Organic chenistry). I hope that makes the purpose of the picture clear. Since it was obviously not as clear as intended (because of the missing note), I'll get the note back; if it's still unclear, please help make it more understandable.
Regarding titles: they are secondary to facts described under them. And it makes most sense (as I see it) to go in the order of hydrogen -- metals -- nonmetals -- noble gases -- organic chemistry. Then we can adjust the titles to the story. For example, nonmetals (other than noble gases and hydrogen) can be called "other reactive nonmetals," and the meaning is still clear. Or, if that's not good enough, we can add a line written in italics under the header explaining that, similar to {{redirect}}. There are options.--R8R (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep, the legend is back as a note; I've touched up the English as well. And then I realise we need more relentless critics, so this nomination won't stall. BANZAI! Parcly Taxel 04:01, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I think I now support. Nice work; here are the trifling copyedits I performed. --John (talk) 23:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)


I'm reasonably satisfied that this article meets all the FAC criteria bar (1a) prose; (2c) consistent citations; and (3) media. On prose I made some edits to the lead however User:Parcly Taxel has rewritten some of these, more or less back to the way they were. That is fine, however I remain personally dissatisfied with the standard of prose. Given any more of my edits to prose may be rewritten I will stop here. May I ask another editor to review the prose, in case I am being too pernickety? Re 2c, consistent citations, I have not looked closely at these to determine if they are satisfactory (I did see some Lide 2004 citations which need a pp rather than a p; and Burney 1999, which needs a p rather than a pp). Media looks OK but I haven't checked copyright status. 05:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Eh, tillie. I "reverted" some of those copyedits (@Sandbh: yours) because they actually made the prose look worse, not better (indeed, I noticed the fragmented nature of the sentences introduced – stoppy-movey). John knows better; I've left his copyedits as they were. As for the single and double p-letters, yes, that has been fixed. Parcly Taxel 09:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Noted and understood. I look forward to further developments. Sandbh (talk) 12:10, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
As for the media, none of them are fair use, the authors are properly cited and everything's fine under the sun and moon. FACR#3 is all smiles. Parcly Taxel 09:34, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


"…the rest is converted into corrosive hydrogen fluoride, a precursor to various organic fluorides and the critical aluminium refining flux cryolite.'
  • The location of cryolite as the first word in a five word descriptive phrase is too far away. By the time you get to the end of the phrase it doesn't make sense.
    • Changed to read " fluorides and cryolite, the critical aluminium refining flux": is this better? Double sharp (talk) 11:35, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Need a semicolon after fluorides Sandbh (talk) 11:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
"Organofluorine compounds persist in the environment due to the strength of the carbon–fluorine bond, but the potential health impact of such compounds is unclear."
  • The use of but in this sentence doesn't make sense; there is nothing needing to be said that needs a 'but'.
"A few plants and bacteria synthesize organofluorine poisons to deter herbivores, but fluorine has no known metabolic role in mammals."
  • Use of a 'but' here is awkward. Sandbh (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Changed these two consecutive sentence to read "Organofluorine compounds persist in the environment due to the strength of the carbon–fluorine bond. The potential health impact of such compounds is unclear: a few plants and bacteria synthesize organofluorine poisons to deter herbivores, though fluorine has no known metabolic role in mammals." Is this better? Double sharp (talk) 11:35, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Somewhat although the second sentence mixes concepts. Joining the concept of 'health impact' to the concept of plant-generated herbivore poisons is a long bow; and then to add that fluorine has no metabolic roles in mammals is another obscure connection. Sandbh (talk) 11:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Electron configuration

"…two electrons in a filled inner shell and seven in an outer shell one short of completion."
  • Last phrase, 'outer shell one short of completion' is grammatically awkward.
"Fluorine's first ionization energy is third-highest among all elements, behind helium and neon, so removing electrons from neutral fluorine atoms is very difficult.
  • The 'so' does not read well.
"Fluorine has a high electron affinity, second only to chlorine, preferring to capture an electron and become isoelectronic with the noble gas neon…
  • Sentence doesn't read well: finishing with 'affinity' and starting on the other side with 'preferring' doesn't flow very well. Sandbh (talk) 11:34, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • All problems above this line have been fixed. Parcly Taxel 09:23, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


"The bond energy of difluorine is much lower than those of Cl2 and Br2, similar to that of a weak peroxide bond, which accounts for its high reactivity and easy dissociation."
  • Awkward due to mixing of quantity tenses (singular value of F; mutiple values of Cl and Br). Suggest: "The bond energy of difluorine is much lower than that of either Cl2 or Br2, and is similar to that of a weak peroxide bond; this accounts for its high reactivity and easy dissociation."
"Bonds to other atoms are very strong because of its high electronegativity."
  • The 'its' does not make sense; the EN of fluorine is that of the F atom, not difluorine.
"Reactions of elemental fluorine with metals require varying conditions: alkali metals cause explosions and alkaline earth metals display vigorous activity in bulk, but most other metals such as aluminium and iron must be powdered to prevent metal fluoride layers from passivating, and noble metals require pure fluorine gas at 300–450 °C (575–850 °F). Metalloids and some solid nonmetals (sulfur, phosphorus, and selenium) burn with a flame in room temperature fluorine. Hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide combine readily with fluorine, the latter sometimes explosively, but sulfuric acid exhibits much less activity."
  • The "buts" are awkward. Both can be replaced by semicolons. The order of metal fluoride layers and passivating is the wrong way round: "to prevent passivation due to the formation of metal fluoride layers" is the sense of what needs to be said.
"Carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide react at room and slightly higher temperatures.."; "...and other organic chemicals beget..."
  • Suggest: "Carbon dioxide reacts at room temperature; carbon monoxide at a slightly higher temperature"
  • Kill the 'beget'; replace with a more modern word
"nitrogen requires electric discharge and elevated temperatures for reaction"
  • Suggest: "nitrogen requires an electric discharge"
"ammonia's reaction is potentially explosive"
  • Awkward construction. Suggest: "ammonia may react explosively."
"Oxygen does not combine under ambient conditions, but can be made to using electric discharge at low temperatures and pressures…"
  • Oxygen does not combine with what? But can be made "to" what? Sandbh (talk) 01:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
You know what? Just put all your prose mistakes here and say that you'll support once everything is resolved. I want this article through and promoted as fast as possible. The problems in Reactivity have all been fixed. Parcly Taxel 06:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

@WP:FAC coordinators: @Sandbh: Done now with your copyedits? I'd love to have this article promoted quickly to avoid stalling – we've got so much support for all the criteria now. Parcly Taxel 23:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh. No. Not done. I have eight three sections to go. Given the other supports, there is no need necessarily to wait for me, subject to the views of the FAC coordinators. I support in spirit, in any event, as per my earlier comments. I'm confident I'll be able to address all of my prose concerns. Sandbh (talk) 00:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Hurricanehink (support)[edit]

Support. I stumbled here from my own FAC, and was quite pleased by the article! Just a few comments.

  • US$15 - this should have a link to USD. Throughout the article, you're inconsistent whether you use $ or US$
  • Organofluorine should perhaps be linked in the last paragraph of the lead
  • "Fluorine has high reactivity because compared with Cl2 and Br2, difluorine's bond energy is much lower, similar to a weak peroxide bond,[18][19] allowing elemental fluorine to dissociate easily. " - I get what it means, but I think it could be explained better with a better sentence structure
    I can only suggest separating the "allowing ..." part into a separate sentence, and a slight rewording, which I did, but it would be nice if someone else gave it a look.
    I reworded the sentence, now it's two sentences and reads all fine. Parcly Taxel 00:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Fluorine is highly toxic." - this sentence is pretty short. Perhaps add "to living organisms" afterward, to give it a bit more girth?
    The short sentence makes the statement stronger, doesn't it? Regardless, doesn't the word "toxic" already imply that the toxicity is a property only living organisms interact with? (I can't word it better, sorry.) I mean, wouldn't "toxic to living organisms" be just the same as "toxic" (and thus also a tautology)?
No, and some people use it when referring to (poisoning) a catalyst. Nergaal (talk) 12:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I get the idea, statement has been "inflated" for clarity per the original request. Now! @Nergaal, Hurricanehink, John, Aa77zz, Sandbh:! You support the nomination? Parcly Taxel 23:06, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Make sure you link ppm and explain what it is.
  • "−188 °C" - this and all other temperatures should have conversion to Fahrenheit per WP:ACCESS
  • Note 5 looks like the image should be first, with the text following, but right now it looks messy
    I did what I could, set the image before the text. It's the best thing that came to my mind.
  • "Hydrofluoric acid, aqueous hydrogen fluoride," - I don't think a comma is appropriate here. I think you should either add "acid, which is aqueous...", or make it a dash.
  • "3 kg" - in lbs?
  • When was the "Montreal Protocol"?

All in all, a good read! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:06, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Your comments are valid and good (really), so I followed them except where noted.--R8R (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks for the quick replies, they all look great! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:02, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Mirokado (support)[edit]

Just a few comments.

  • Reactivity:
    • "a weak peroxide bond": as opposed to a strong peroxide bond, or intending to clarify that peroxide bonds are weak? I think the latter, in which case "the weak peroxide bond" would be clearer
    • "nitrogen requires an electric discharge at elevated temperatures for reaction due to its very strong triple bonds" The N2 molecule has one triple bond, so I think it will be better to use the singular: "nitrogen requires an electric discharge at elevated temperatures for reaction due to its very strong triple bond"
  • Occurrence / Earth: There is no explanation of the thousand-fold increase in relative abundance between the universe and Earth : how does this relate to the mentioned cosmic rarity of fluorine compared to neighbouring elements?
    • Explanation not required. Rare in the universe does not necessarily mean rare in Earth's crust. @R8R Gtrs:: mind if you wanna pull out a ref of some sort for this?
    • This comes from two reasons: fluorine's reactivity, which makes fluorine, which leaves stars and comes to Earth, chemically react with rocks, after which fluorine becomes a part of rocks and doesn't leave the Earth; and the fact fluorine which stays in stars is not safe there, and may undergo nuclear reactions with other elements (which makes it not fluorine anymore). Besides, the rarity of fluorine in stars is explained, with this very argument :) --R8R (talk) 11:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Compounds / Metals: "Alkaline earth difluorides possess strong ionic bonds as well but are insoluble": I find myself asking, why?
    • No need to ask about that. There already is a reference and that's freely available – have a look at it. That's what they were for, after all.
    • This once was in the article when it was 90 KB of text alone and was cut when making the article have a readable size; the reason is low (high absolute values, but negative) lattice energies, which are lower (larger absolute values, but negative) than sums of hydration energies, making it more favorable to stay undissolved, as the undissolved matter has the lowest internal energy. (I remember, I was intrigued with this at some point as well). I understand why you're asking, but I wouldn't add this, as this seems more of a detail, and this is an overview article.--R8R (talk) 11:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Environmental concerns / Biopersistence: "... since their biological metabolisms are hard." : sounds clumsy, how about: "since they are not readily biologically degraded"
  • Biological role / Natural biochemistry: I couldn't find a nice simple definition for "ω-fluoro" by following the fatty acids wl or googling, can you clarify somehow?
  • Note 17: Perhaps it would be better to use the French spelling for Nicklès since it changes the pronounciation a lot: either Jérôme Nicklès or his full name François Joseph Jérôme Nicklès (I looked here while checking this)

-- Mirokado (talk) 00:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

@Mirokado: Fixed all problems you mentioned, with accompanying commentary. Parcly Taxel 01:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response. I've left the two points where where I think the content could be a bit more stand-alone in case we can think of any change, but they are pretty minor and should not affect featured article status, so supporting now. -- Mirokado (talk) 02:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Peter Isotalo (toxicity, headings; support)[edit]

An informative, well-illustrated and ambitious article. Some things are not quite clear to me, though:

The first thing I tried to look up was what makes fluorine toxic in what I assume is its pure form, and at the same time beneficial to oral hygiene. This information is somewhat disjointed and slightly contradictory, though. Under "Toxicity" it's claimed to be toxic. Period. No qualifications, but much later "Biological role" explains exactly how it isn't toxic. Later still, "Precautions" goes back to toxicity again. I understand that there's a difference between various compounds and whatnot, but the article isn't quite stating the obvious.

Would you try to explain one more time, I'm not sure I get it? I specified under "Toxicity" that elemental fluorine is toxic, because the whole "Characteristics" section discusses elemental fluorine only, as done with any other element article; "Biological role" discusses (obviously) some organic compounds, and "Precautions" discusses effects of HF and fluoride ions. There is no contradiction I see; but would you point me to it?
"Elemental" helps, but why not point out in the section heading as well? "Elemental characteristics" perhaps? If the standard formula is unclear, it doesn't hurt tweaking it.
If "Biological role" is actually about organic compounds, why isn't it under "Organic compounds"? Does that also mean that "Industry and applications" is about inorganic chemistry? This may be obvious to you, but not to everyone.
Peter Isotalo 14:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
As explained below, this disjoint information problem should have been solved with my restructuring of sections. In particular the parts saying that fluorine is toxic and those indicating otherwise have been split into distant sections. Parcly Taxel 14:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Also, I don't understand the table of contents. Why are medical and agricultural applications placed under "Biological role" rather than "Industry and applications"? They're very clearly about industrial applications, not biology per se. The sub-heading "Natural biochemistry" hints at the rather artificial separation of the biochemical industry from steel, polymers and whatnot. And why the manual-like "Precautions"? Why isn't this grouped with "Toxicity" or the likes? Peter Isotalo 11:32, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. Sandbh's framework of the article which I copyedited really was disjointed in several places. Now I'm considering a substantial rearrangement of sections based on the zinc article:
  • Two sections of applications, the medicinal and the industrial (the latter includes agriculture), since we have so much.
  • Unification of the Toxicity subsection from Characteristics, the Biological role section and the precautions – there's so little about them.
…and in fact, I've done it already. I think it makes the contents more coherent; what do you think Isotalo? Parcly Taxel 10:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I hesitate to put precautions, HF (aq), and F (aq) under "Biological role": they're more about toxicity than about F playing a positive role in biochemistry. Also I would not call the section "natural occurrence", which sounds to me as though it was talking about F in the earth's crust, the Solar System, or something (which is already above).
Since F is the subject of the article, the primary focus, I feel, should be the element (F2). So I think the scheme should be that toxicity without qualification is on F2, and if you are talking about other F compounds, you must have the qualification.
I agree with moving the medicinal and agricultural applications out of "biological role".
I've made a couple of edits to make this new scheme better. Nevertheless, I would like to also hear what R8R has to say on this. Double sharp (talk) 03:03, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I am too late to see any changes being done, but I think the page as of now is pretty fine (except I moved the Environmental concerns section from between Medical applications and Biological role to the bottom, as the former clearly wasn't the best place to keep it, between two interrelated sections) --R8R (talk) 21:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Would you give me a couple of days so I could get a great reference book I have so I could check it and (thereafter) think what should be done best?--R8R (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
No rush on my account.
Peter Isotalo 13:30, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Minor issue, really, but rearranging the information improves the article quite a bit. Support.
Peter Isotalo 05:58, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

FAC coord notes (reference and image reviews)[edit]

Coincidentally, Parcly pinged the FAC coords for an assessment just as I was looking over the review and adding the following:

  • Looks like image licensing and source reviews needed -- will list at WT:FAC.
  • It also looks like this would be the first (potentially successful) FAC nom for both Parcly and R8R, so I'd like to see a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing; will likewise request at WT:FAC.
  • There are many duplicate links in the article. Given its length and technical nature, some may well be justified but pls review. With Polytetrafluoroethylene, for instance, we not only get three links but also duplicate abbreviations "(PTFE)" in the first two instances and then a brand name "(Teflon)" for the last, although the brand name had already been mentioned. You can use this script to highlight the repeated links.
    It was done once before, but it's good that you noted it, since, yes, that has shown to be useful, thanks. I've removed all duplicate links, except for a few compound links in the Compounds (where they totally make sense) and Industrial applications (when discussing some (not all mentioned) compounds with a role in the text) sections. The word "Teflon" is mentioned twice, once just standing alone in parentheses when mentioning the history of it, and once mentioned in Industrial applications. Both times, the word is relevant to the text surrounding it (industry). Is this not okay? (As for the other two points, it's for an external reviewer to judge, not us, but this has been looked at previously, so I think it should be mostly or even completely fine)--R8R (talk) 00:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Quote-initial and -terminal ellipses should be omitted
  • FN22, 27, 174: pages?
    Done; for sources where I couldn't easily find those placed, I've replaced them (also changing the numbering scheme)
  • Gribble: are there two editors or just one?
  • As I understand it, PRWeb doesn't author their content, they just publish it
    Currently, not the reports as such serve as refs, but the PRWeb pages that link to the reports. I think this is okay?
  • Be consistent in when you include publisher location
    Removed all of them – they are made redundant by the publisher anyway.
  • Newspaper titles like Boston Globe should be italicized
    I checked against that. I have not found any further mistakes in format except for the Chiste ref, which was corrected
  • European Commission: ordering of the directorate name affects alphabetization - with the European part first, this is out of order
    I've moved the European part to the end, because the directorate part is more important
  • Brantley formatting is quite strange
  • Burney: be consistent in how initials are punctuated
  • Be consistent in whether/when you include states for US locations, and whether these are abbreviated
    No mention of the state or country anywhere. Thank you.
  • Be consistent in whether you include publisher for periodicals
  • Check alphabetization of references list
    I've checked, a few swaps were required, thank you
  • Meyer: location formatting
  • Preskorn: can you verify that this title is correct?
    I've corrected the title, thank you
  • The two dissertations are formatted quite differently
    Are the Lagow and the Rhoades refs meant? If so, they look quite similar and both use {{cite book}}
  • Sidgwick: use title caps
  • Why do some refs have month and year in the first set of parentheses, while others have only year and then a later set with month?

Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

@Sandbh, R8R Gtrs: You're to blame for this. I need you now! (And the issues with 0 after them have been fixed.) Parcly Taxel 07:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll add this to my list and cheerfully decline your serving of blame-pie :) Sandbh (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I've replaced bold zeros with "Done" messages _only_because_ it's easier to see what's been done and what's not that way. The remaining part should be easier. (Also, you got me, why are Sandbh and I to blame? Reply on my talkpage, please)--R8R (talk) 01:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Now the unresolved issues are bolded; that's a better idea. And I'm going to call out for all the FAC reviewers here. @Hamiltonstone, Secret, Dirac66, Dan56, Dank, Sandbh, Farrtj: if you're pinged here, you're needed here. I need a thorough image review and reference spot-check. And maybe @R8R Gtrs: can join in the fun as well – I'm the nominator, not him. Parcly Taxel 07:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Let's say I will not :) Also, I de-bolded two "kind of complete" issues -- I think they are done, but would want some confirmation. One issue left -- doing great so far--R8R (talk) 07:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually we've got two issues to do, not one. My edit on making locations consistent got reverted by S&bh. Parcly Taxel 22:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I understood there was only one (?) reference missing a location, of the references normally provided with locations, which I added as part of the reversion. Sandbh (talk) 23:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Partial image review. Too many for me to do the whole lot.

  • File:Liquid fluorine tighter crop.jpg - derivative of an OTRS ticketed work - looks OK
  • File:Fluorine shielding.svg - derivative of Commons-licenced work - looks OK
  • File:Beta fluorine unit cell.svg - looks OK
  • File:Fluorite-270246.jpg - OTRS ticketed looks OK
  • File:Apatite Canada.jpg - looks OK
  • File:Ivigtut cryolite edit.jpg - looks OK
  • File:Book9-25.gif - reproduction of out-of-coyright work - looks OK
  • File:Recherches sur l’isolement du fluor, Fig. 5.PNG - as above
  • File:Henri Moissan HiRes.jpg - as above
  • File:Uranium hexafluoride crystals sealed in an ampoule.jpg - US PD licence - looks OK
  • File:Sodium-fluoride-unit-cell-3D.png - looks OK
  • File:Bismuth-pentafluoride-chain-from-xtal-1971-3D-balls.png - looks OK
  • File:Rhenium-heptafluoride-3D-balls.png - looks OK
  • File:Chlorine-trifluoride-3D-balls.png - looks OK
  • File:Xenon tetrafluoride crop.gif - US PD licence - looks OK
  • File:FluorocarbonCrabFish.JPG - looks OK

Can someone else go on from here? Ta. hamiltonstone (talk) 09:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Trader[edit]

Nominator(s): → Call me Hahc21 05:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Trader is a turn-based strategy video game developed by Slovakia-based studio 4Kids Games. It was released on 27 June 2010 for Microsoft Windows and the Xbox 360, and on 17 December 2010 for iOS. The game was designed using Microsoft XNA, and its year long development cycle was executed by six individuals. The game consists of a player exploring and trading in a sixteenth century cartography-influenced map with the ultimate goal to collect three artifacts to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian. → Call me Hahc21 05:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Review by JimmyBlackwing

My main focus during FAC reviews is criterion 1a, so that's what I'll be judging below.

  • "Slovakia-based" —> "Slovakian".
  • "(unrelated to 4Kids Entertainment)" — This should be removed. It has no source, it isn't part of the article body and it's basically irrelevant.
  • "It was released on 27 June 2010 for Microsoft Windows and the Xbox 360, and on 17 December 2010 for iOS." — Full dates are tedious to read. Best left for the infobox. Shortened version: "It was released in 2010 for Microsoft Windows, the Xbox 360 and iOS."
  • "its year long development cycle was executed by six individuals." —> "it was developed in one year by six people."
  • Sentence rewrite suggestion:
  • "The game consists of a The player controls a ship that exploring explores and trading trades in an Age of Discovery-style map sixteenth century cartography-influenced map, while seeking with the ultimate goal to collect three artifacts that will to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian." (italics signify an addition)
  • "The idea behind the game was influenced by board games and video games such as" —> "Ancient Trader's design was influenced by that of board games and of the video games".
  • "Elite and Advance Wars" — Need italics.
  • "to design the overall game's appearance, and with Milan Malik to compose the game's score." —> "on the game's graphic design, and with Milan Malik on the game's score."
  • "received positive response" —> "received a positive response".
  • "Legendo Entertainment, and" — Comma isn't necessary.
  • Sentence rewrite:
  • "The player controls a ship, and their main mission is to collect and seeks out three powerful artifacts needed to challenge and to defeat the game's main antagonist, a sea creature called the Ancient Guardian."
  • Another:
  • "However, before being able to locate obtaining these artifacts, the player must explore the map and to gather amounts of three different commodities: tea, spices, and fruit."
  • "The map consists of a main sea surrounded by land" —> "The map consists of a landlocked sea".
  • A rewrite:
  • "Sea creatures and enemy ships appear randomly across the map as they and challenge the player for gold or loot commodities in a card minigame."
  • "side quests" — Wikilink this to Quest (video gaming).
  • "Whirlpools act as teleports that, when activated, take" —> "Whirlpools transport".
  • A rewrite:
  • "The player can also sometimes encounters message bottles that clear away fog of war previously clouded areas of on the map to reveal hidden ports."
  • "the entire map is covered by wind clouds that disappear" —> "the entire map is obscured by fog of war that disappears".
  • "moved across the horizontal and vertical axes, but not diagonally" —> "moved horizontally and vertically, but not diagonally"
  • "steps" — Kind of a vague word. Perhaps, "moves" wikilinked to Game mechanics#Movement?
  • "and then the artificial intelligence" — "after which the artificial intelligence".
  • "located at a port" —> "docked at a port".
  • "drawing cards" —> "drawing colored and numbered cards".
  • "the player will be allowed to buy the three powerful artifacts needed to defeat the Ancient Guardian and win the game" —> "the player is allowed to buy the three powerful artifacts and win the game by defeating the Ancient Guardian".
  • A rewrite:
  • "Additionally, Defeating the Guardian awards the player with the "mythical treasure", which consists of additional loot and upgrades that were previously not unavailable in on the map."
  • I don't understand the discussion of the game's multiplayer component. Could you try clarifying it in the article?
  • "the progress will be unrecoverable if the game is closed" —> "all progress is lost if the game is closed".
  • Why do you discuss the multiplayer mode twice? Redundant information should be merged or removed.
  • "Ancient Trader is the first video game developed by Slovakia-based" —> "Ancient Trader was the first video game developed by the Slovakian"

I'll be back later to finish the review. In the meantime, a review-back on Thief II would be most appreciated. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Review by JimmyBlackwing, continued

Sorry for the delay; I've been busy.

  • "Four people comprised the team that worked in the development of the game" —> "The development team consisted of four people".
  • A rewrite:
  • "The music score was composed by Milan Malik, while animations were designed and the graphics were animated by Jan Ohajsky."
  • A rewrite:
  • "Levius and his girlfriend dedicated tested and balanced the game's mechanics for around two months to test and balance the game's mechanics along with his girlfriend, as well as gathering groups of and they invited friends to play the game 'without explaining anything[,] to see if they can understand the rules and controls.'"
  • A rewrite:
  • "He Levius worked with Vcelka to design Ancient Trader's appearance., and he contributed graphical Levius, who designed some details like paper textures and clouds.,revealed that The map's texture was based on a base of the maps' textures was arranged from the scan of an old military map of Slovakia."
  • Maybe include an image of Theatrum Orbis Terrarum in Development to go along with Schilling's quote?
  • A rewrite:
  • "For the Xbox 360 version of Ancient Trader, the team introduced a feature options to reduce the color saturation in the game and to change the amount of color in the game allow players to decide how much color they wanted to have."
  • "other recent genre-related" — Just drop this part.
  • "and vividness" —> "and the vividness".
  • "gave the game a score of 8 out of 10" — We know this from the review box.
  • "as to be a" — Drop the "to be".
  • "Legendo Entertainment, and" — Comma isn't needed.
  • "included an improved AI, new player avatars and the save feature" —> "includes improved AI, new player avatars and the save feature".
  • "it was too far from the original indie game" —> "it deviated too much from the original indie game".

The prose isn't too bad, but there are enough issues that I'm going to have to oppose until it's been tidied up. It shouldn't take too long to fix. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Yeah it needs a bit of work. I'll do it later this week :) → Call me Hahc21 04:06, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Older nominations[edit]

Fanny Bullock Workman[edit]

Nominator(s): Adam Cuerden (talk), Figureskatingfan (Christine), and Wadewitz, 03:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about Fanny Bullock Workman, mountaineer, rock climber, suffragette, and feminist. It was one of the last articles being worked on by Adrianne Wadewitz before her untimely death, and between her excellent work and those of us wishing to finish it, we'd like to raise this up in her memory.

Okay, so what have I done? Well, I've reviewed it, fixed up some copyediting, checked and improved the images - probably will try to improve them a bit more through restoration and such, but that's surely not a requirement before nominating here - and her books are more than amply covered by my local library. So, let's do this! Adam Cuerden (talk) 03:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • File:Fanny_bullock_workman_d_1922.jpg: when/where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:17, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from EddieHugh

  • Something to get out of the way early on: there are too many quotations that are unattributed and that could be paraphrased. e.g., in Move to Europe and cycling tours, "the role of "devoted mother" and instead became an "adventurer and author"" (can be paraphrased; if not, attribute them); "lyrical descriptions"; "The Workman's works are colonialist in that they describe the people they meet and observe as "at best as exotic or unusual, at worst as primitive or even subhuman"" (be clear about who wrote that); "commonplace" (surely this can be reworded... it's only one word).
  • I'm wary of what appear to be editorial summaries. e.g., "Popular reviewers, on the other hand, enjoyed the book. One reviewer in The Standard, wrote "We have no hesitation in saying that Dr. and Mrs. Workman have written one of the most remarkable books of travel of recent years."[16]" If No. 16 is the source of that first, summarizing, sentence, then add 16 explicitly. If it's not, then the first sentence needs a different source or to be cut. Another example: "Their rivalry demonstrated that women could climb in the remotest and most difficult terrain of the world, and that they were equal to male mountaineers" (needs a direct source, as it's hard for the reader to judge if this is the writer's synthesis or has been asserted explicitly by others).
I went through and sourced the quotes some more and did some paraphrasing, as per your request, which I believe will do away with the editorializing, even though I think that Wadewitz's method follows how quotes are handled in some academic literature. When Adam gets a hold of the sources, he can check for accuracy.
  • Small things: "the 45 miles (72 km)-long" (the hyphen is needed, but "miles" must be singular; there are several examples); multiple sources together should be in numerical order; use same date formatting throughout (e.g., infobox dob and dod differ); either abbreviate months or don't (don't is preferable – MOS:MONTH). EddieHugh (talk) 16:32, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I've fixed the above, which was due to use of the convert template. I'm pretty sure I got them all; perhaps someone can go behing me and catch what I've missed or correct any errors.
Thank you for your comments; My sources are at the library, but I'll fix what I can without them tonight, and try to fix the library ones within a day or two (presuming Christine doesn't get to them first). Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I add my thanks for your comments; they'll make for a stronger article. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

SupportComments from Hamiltonstone. A worthy article aabout an important figure, and glad to see Adrienne's work continuing.

  • There was some pretty dire repetition early in the prose - sentences using the same word twice etc. I've tried to iron some out, and it got better as i went through.
  • "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, using the bicycle to achieve it, she ..." very clunky. Suggest you get rid of the reference to the bicycle altogether here, and just have "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman...", and then introduce cycling early in the following para.
The reason for the clunkiness is to demonstrate the importance of bicycles, which provided women with more freedom of movement, in the feminist movement. That's why I think that it should remain where it is. I agree with you that it's clunky language, so I did this: "After his death, according to Pauly, Workman, through her bicycle tours..."
  • They really only carried 20lbs of luggage each? Are we certain we have the source correct on this? That is staggeringly light, unless they had porter-cyclists behind them!!
This is from the Pauly source, which I don't have access to. Adam needs to consult the source to be sure, but I'm inclined to WP:AGF that Wadewitz was accurate.
  • Pinnacle peak section - something needs to be done about the repetition of the peak being her altitude record - it is described para one and then set out again at the start of para 2.
I think the reason it's described in this way is because the first para talks about how she did it and the second one talks about how she proved that she had done it; i.e., defending that she broke the record. Maybe if you're more specific about what you want changed, I can follow your suggestion here.
I think I;ve fixed it. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I didn't get past the pinnacle peak section.
Ha! Good one! ;)

May get back some time. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, eagerly anticipating more. And thanks for your copy-editing. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • OK, gone through to the end, and have fixed the other things I found. I think I'm done.
  • I took a brief look at the sources and the formatting looked sound. Any particular reason there are lots of &ndash; rather than just straight endashes?

Thanks for your efforts to continue the work of one of my favourite wikipedians. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

HTML codes for ndashes are common amongst people who either often write HTML off Wikipedia, or who started editing Wikipedia before the character insert tools got added to the edit interface. &ndash; is preferred in HTML, I believe, but I also believe the Wikicode can do that HTML conversion for you. That said, it's easier for an editor in the fixed-width font of the edit window to tell hyphens from en- and em-dashes if the HTML is used, which likely makes it a bit easier to proofread. In short, no strong reason to do it, but no reason to change it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks Adam. hamiltonstone (talk) 06:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Squall Leonhart[edit]

Nominator(s): Bailo26 19:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about the fictional protaganist of the game Final Fantasy VIII created by Squaresoft, now Square Enix, in 1999 for the Sony Playstation. All references are working, the article has been Copy-edited and Peer reviewed. It was given GA status in 2006. I believe that since then sufficient improvement has been made to bring it up to FA status. Bailo26 19:53, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

The Love Club EP[edit]

Nominator(s): Simon (talk) and Adabow (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is about New Zealand singer Lorde's debut major release, The Love Club EP. The EP revealed Lorde's fear and nervousness of becoming a new artist. For the development of the article, I have found as many sources as I could, so I think that this article is fully comprehensive now. I would appreciate any comments/suggestions to help improve the article. Thanks, Simon (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WonderBoy1998[edit]

  • Looks great. Some points- Okay now I think this article needs some work. No worries, everything can easily be bettered.
  • "Lorde admitted that she was inspired by hip hop music-influenced music, such as Lana Del Rey" - consider changing "hip hop music-influenced music" to "hip hop music-influenced artists" to avoid repetition of "music." Using "artist" will also fit better with Lana Del Rey. In fact, even the "music" in "hip hop music-influenced" is not needed. I'd change it to "hip hop-influenced"
  • "It features Lorde's "smoky" vocal delivery" - awkward wording. Consider changing to "Lorde's vocal delivery on the album was described as "smoky" by Nick Ward from The Nelson Mail. Another critic, Chris Schulz of The New Zealand Herald, commented that her voice "seems to come from someone twice her age.""
"According to Nick Ward from The Nelson Mail, Lorde's vocals on the EP are "smoky"" - These kinds of sentences look okay on good articles. For a featured article, you're gonna have to come up with a better, more refined sentence.
  • "Jim Pinckney from New Zealand Listener" - Try adding some variation. Perhaps "New Zealand Listener critic Jim Pinckney"
  • " are structure[d is missing] in a short story manner" - Consider changing to "are structured in the manner of a short story" or "opined that the structure of the songs is similar to that of a short story." Also don't use "Lorde's songs"
  • More soon --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 07:48, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Gee, thanks! I have addressed all of your concerns. Simon (talk) 08:28, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The "short story" issue has not been addressed. Also see above for a new comment on the "smoky" voice thing. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 09:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • How does it look now? Simon (talk) 08:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes looking good --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 08:54, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "it discusses Lorde feigning confidence" - the "discusses" just doesn't fit well, in my opinion.
  • "the two tracks" - you can remove "the"
  • "the former draws from" - draws what?
  • " Kanye West'" →" Kanye West's"
  • "high life" seems to have been directly borrowed from the Guardian. You can easily replace it with something life "criticize the glamorous lifestyle of the rich"
  • "The EP's title track" → The title track of the EP (try to avoid using apostrophes with nouns that are not proper nouns)
  • There you go. Best, Simon (talk) 09:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Lyrically, the EP discusses "nervousness [Lorde] might expect for an artist conducting her first print interview and effectively beginning the process of unmasking herself"" - This sentence is contrived and changes the meaning of what the original writer meant. Reading the article by NZ Listener and specifically the sentence "Resolutely self-aware and confident, thankfully without the precociousness of talent-show youth, O'Connor displays remarkably little of the nervousness you might expect for an artist conducting her first print interview and effectively beginning the process of unmasking herself," it is obvious that the writer just meant that Lorde is confident and does not display nervousness. It does not seem to explain the lyrical theme of the EP.
  • Ah, right. How does it look now? Simon (talk) 04:13, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "commercially release the EP for sales" - Isn't "for sales" redundant? Using the word "commercially" covers that
  • Moved "for sales". Simon (talk) 04:13, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the interview, Lorde's manager says "So initially we gave away 60,000 tracks." Do "tracks" equate to an entire EP? ("After being freely downloaded 60,000 times, UMG decided to commercially release the EP for sales"). Has the EP been downloaded 60,000 times?
I don't know whether individual tracks were available for download. I've replaced the citation used, which verifies that it was in fact 60,000 downloads of the EP. Adabow (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • @WonderBoy1998: All your issues have been addressed. Many thanks, Simon (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "continuing to praise" and " continued to praise" are very similar, hence they sound repetitive. Modify one of them]\
  • Done. Simon (talk) 12:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I find it odd how the lead mentions that it had sold 60,000 in the US, but not that it had gone platinum in NZ and Australia
  • I have added a sentence in the lead. Simon (talk) 12:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I support now, although I would still suggest improving the prose a bit and make it great. Right now it's just good. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 11:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WikiRedactor[edit]

  • In the infobox, I would drop the "At", remove the small text from "Morningside, Auckland, New Zealand", and place it in parentheses.
Done. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I would replace instances of "the US" with "the United States"; I forget where I heard it from, but it suggested that "United States" be used as a noun and "U.S." be used as an adjective when describing something (i.e. the U.S. Billboard 200).
"US" can be used as a noun. See [7]. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Can you include an as-of date to verify its sales in the United States?
Done. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure how I feel about the word "admitted" in the "Background and production" section, how about something like "acknowledged", "commented", etc.?
Agreed; changed, thanks. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the "Composition" section, you mention that "Royals" was replaced by "Swingin Party" in the United States. If I remember correctly, this was done after "Royals" was released on Pure Heroine, is there any source you could add in that would verify this if this was the case?
I've see what I can dig up... Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, I've explained that the different tracklisting only came into affect in September 2013. Adabow (talk) 23:17, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the "Release and promotion" section, "Self-release (music)" should be relinked to "Self-publishing".
Why? Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the beginning of the "Reception" section, I would add a brief sentences about how the record received generally favorable reviews, just so it is available at a quick glance.
With only three critics mentioned, I feel that could be a bit dishonest to readers. There is a table with star ratings there, which offers a quick summary. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the track listing, can you reformat the title of the "New Zealand iTunes Store bonus track" so it matches the other two track listings?
I've slightly reworked the entire thing. Adabow (talk) 22:53, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Everything else looks in good shape, after these comments are addressed I'll check back in! WikiRedactor (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

@WikiRedactor: How does the article look now? Simon (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Looks good, happy to give my support! WikiRedactor (talk) 22:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Retrohead[edit]

  • Background and production
Can we find a luckier solution for "spotted"? Perhaps "discovered", or if you have a better idea of your own.
I think "spotted" is the best solution here. Simon (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
"started to write songs by herself"→"started writing songs herself"; better flow, I think.
Agree. Done. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Ultimately, the A&R paired Lorde with Joel Little–the A&R is MacLachlan, right?
Of course. As stated in the first sentence of the section "A&R representative" Scott MacLachlan. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
In that case, maybe you should replace "the A&R" with "MacLachlan". Surely there are other A&R officials from the label.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
MacLachlan is quite repetitive in this case. And in the article there is only one A&R listed. Simon (talk) 13:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Then perhaps he would be a better solution? That ambiguous "A&R" can be any representative of Universal Music.
Done. Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
yet criticised its "bullshit" references–references to what?
Already stated in the section. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
My bad. I wanted you to paraphrase the "expensive alcohol, beautiful clothes and beautiful cars" quote. It sounds like cliché.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we need to have this quote paraphrased. It's already got its meaning. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
"Lorde wrote the songs' lyrics"–only "the lyrics" would be fine
Fixed. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Release and promotion
This section reads much like a chronological table with all those dates and events altogether. Can you lessen this style of writing or overhaul the prose?
Nah, I just follow other recent FAs. I think it's the standard quality of album articles. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Reception
This title doesn't seem to fit the content of the section. We are presented with the certification, chart positions, and accolades, contradictory to what is stated in the heading.
I think they are related to each other. Appearing on charts, receiving accolades and certifications are also a type of "reception". Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Can we at least use sub-headings to differentiate the critical reception from the accolades and commercial success?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
If so the sub-sections will be extremely short. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
The name of the Allmusic critic should be stated.
In the source given there is no name of the critic. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Then perhaps you should say just Allmusic?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
The "indeed" in Schulz's quote seems unnecessary.
Removed "indeed". Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Can you paraphrase "fully formed"?
Since "fully formed" is quite misleading, I have removed the term. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Avoid mentioning the ratings in the prose, since they are already given in the table.
Per WP:MOSALBUM. Simon (talk) 02:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no mentioning that the ratings should be presented both in the prose and table. My suggestion is of practical reasons, to avoid stating one information twice.--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I've removed AllMusic rating in the box. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
My point wasn't to remove the Allmusic grade. The writing style should be consistent here. Either present all of the ratings in table, or avoid using table and write them in the prose. A mixture of those two is not acceptable; neither is repeating information at both places.
Is your point to remove the star ratings in the paragraph? Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Sales and certifications
The US certification is missing.
Nielsen SoundScan only list sales here. According to the RIAA database, the EP does not receive any certifications. Simon (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Can we somehow notify that, lets say by putting slash or N.A. maybe?--Retrohead (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm trying, but seems to be impossible. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Additional notes on prose
For example, you can say just "production" instead of "overall production" or "style" instead of "musical style" in the lead, hence this is musical item, right?
Additionally, the during is extra in "Lorde performed during various concerts"; it is commonly accepted to use "6× Platinum" over "septuple platinum".
  • Septuple is also accepted, but I have replaced it. Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
"all of which were written by Lorde"–I assume "all of" can be easily dropped without changing the meaning of the sentence
  • Removed. Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
"Bravado" is a chamber pop[8] and electropop song[10]–I think this is a case of WP:SYNTH. One critic says "this is chamber pop", another one says "this is electropop song", and you combined those two opinions into one sentence.
  • After considering this, I have removed "electropop" because Village Voice is not as suitable as NZ Herald. Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Please notify me if you have any questions related to the notes. I'll come back later to check the progress. Good luck.--Retrohead (talk) 13:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. They are highly appreciated! Regards, Simon (talk) 02:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose as the majority of my concern were not addressed or explained. Though the article is well-researched and referenced, it has some issues with prose comprehensiveness that can not be overlooked.--Retrohead (talk) 12:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Some of them have been addressed. Simon (talk) 13:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Retrohead, I have replied to your concerns. Simon (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Simon, my opinion remains the same. The prose is quite garrulous at few places, as pointed in the posts above.--Retrohead (talk) 19:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Retrohead, how about this time? Simon (talk) 04:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
About the rating, you can go either as in Confusion, where the ratings are presented in the prose, or as I suggested, using table for the grades and avoid mentioning them in the text. Using a mixture of both, as in the present state, is not consistent.--Retrohead (talk) 11:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
@Retrohead: Okay, I got it! How about it now? Simon (talk) 03:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I definitely see progress in the work, but I've got a few concerns left. The "writer at AllMusic" was returned although you've said above that you had fulfilled that note. I still think that "favourable review" is more suitable than the three star rating already written in the box. There's some paraphrasing left to be done, and here are some additional notes:
  • Little created the melodies–perhaps "composed" is a better solution?
  • Done. Simon (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • After being freely downloaded–freely is extra
  • If so, some people will mislead. Simon (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • released digitally–digitally released
  • It's the same. Simon (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Lorde replaced Frank Ocean, at the–the comma is extra
  • Removed. Simon (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • At the 56th Annual Grammy Awards (2014)–you can say 2014 Grammy Awards, which is far simpler
  • I did that in order to avoid redirect. Simon (talk) 04:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • As I previously specified, please try using "day, month, year" structures less frequently. Not that this is "wrong", but it certainly drags away the reader's attention.
I'll stop the review here. My overall impression, as WonderBoy1998 already stated, is that the prose maybe is of GA caliber, but has certain flaws that keep the article away from FA status. This article, according to me, shouldn't exemplify how featured albums should read, and shouldn't be placed in the same category as articles such as Marquee Moon or Are You Experienced, for example.--Retrohead (talk) 11:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from FreshBlueLotus[edit]


  • The Love Club EP is the debut extended play (EP) by New Zealand recording artist Lorde. ("the debut" or "a debut").
  • "the" debut is grammartically correct here. Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • At the age of 12, Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan and began writing songs by herself ("and" inhibits clarity about age. In the Background and production – "Lorde was spotted … at the age of 12, ... At the age of 13, Lorde started writing songs herself. "). Recommend: "In her early teens, Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan when she began writing songs by herself."
  • Why? I think mentioning the exact age is more suitable. Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In December 2011, MacLachlan paired Lorde with producer Joel Little and within three weeks, Lorde and Little co-wrote and produced all of the songs for the EP. Recommend: "In December 2011, MacLachlan paired Lorde with producer Joel Little and within three weeks, they co-wrote and produced all the songs for the EP."
  • I have changed to "the pair" Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In November 2012, the EP was released for free via SoundCloud. Recommend: "In November 2012, the free version of the EP was released via SoundCloud." (I agree it doesn’t match with "In November 2012, Lorde self-released The Love Club EP through her SoundCloud account for free download". The fact that "Lorde self-released" it should be mentioned.)
  • Rewritten. Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • An indie rock-influenced electronica album, The Love Club EP received general acclaim from music critics, who praised its overall production and compared its musical style to works by Sky Ferreira, Florence & the Machine and Lana Del Rey. Recommend: "received a general acclaim from the music critics".
  • It is uncountable. Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Acclaim" cannot be used as a noun in this way; I have reworded this part of the sentence. "The" is incorrect before "critics", as that would imply that all critics (of the world, or some other undefined set) acclaimed the album. "Critics" alone means "some critics". Adabow (talk) 13:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • To promote The Love Club EP, Lorde performed during various concerts and "Royals" was released as a single. Recommend: "To promote The Love Club EP, Lorde performed in various concerts and also released "Royals" as a single."
  • During is more correct than "in". Simon (talk) 13:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Background and production

  • Lorde … at the age of 12. At the age of 13, Lorde … . in December 2011, when Lorde had just turned 15. Recommend: Try replacing the overemphasis on age with one term to indicate she was a prodigy; e.g. "A prodigy in her early teens, Lorde at the age of 12 …".


  • Critics compared the EP's musical style to works by Sky Ferreira, Florence and the Machine and Lana Del Rey. ("The" critics … ?)
  • Editor Jim Pinckney from New Zealand Listener opined that Lorde's songs are structured in a manner of a short story. ("The" editor … ?)
  • "Royals" and "Million Dollar Bills" are two tracks that criticize the glamorous lifestyle of the rich ("the" two tracks … ?)
  • The title track of the EP, "The Love Club", discusses the befriendment of "a bad crowd". (Is "befriendment" a standard word? Sounds a tough one for me; couldn’t find in my thesaurus.)

Release and promotion

  • After being freely downloaded 60,000 times, UMG decided to commercially release the EP. ("After a free download of 60,000, UMG …")
  • I am not sure that "a free download..." is acceptable. Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • On 8 March 2013, The Love Club EP was released digitally in Australia,[20] New Zealand,[21] and the United States.[22] (club inline citations 20, 21, 22 at the end after the full stop.)
  • That would be quite misleading. Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The compact disc (CD) edition of the record was released in New Zealand on 10 May,[23] in Australia a week later,[24] and in the United States on 9 July.[25] (again club inline citations 23, 24, 25 at the end after the full stop. "The compact disc (CD) edition" or simply "The CD version …"; CD is compact disc is fairly commonly known.)
  • Not done the first issue. The second issue, I have changed compact disc to CD. Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Royals" was released as the only single from the EP; on 3 June 2013, Lava and Republic Records sent the track to US adult album alternative (AAA) radio. (Are the two statements joined with a semicolon related?) Recommend: ""Royals" was released as the only single from the EP in the US. On 3 June 2013, Lava and Republic Records sent the track to US adult album alternative (AAA) radio." In lead "the US" – "In the US, the record charted at number 23", here "US"; maintain consistency.
  • Done. Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


  • A writer from AllMusic gave The Love Club EP three stars out of five, calling it "evocative", continuing to praise the albums "sultry, sinewy" sound and drawing comparison to the work of Sky Ferreira, Florence + the Machine, Lana Del Rey, and Grimes. Recommend: "The EP received three stars out of five from a writer at AllMusic who called it "evocative" and praised its "sultry, sinewy" sound while comparing it to the work of Sky Ferreira, Florence & the Machine, Lana Del Rey, and Grimes." (Sky Ferreira, Florence "&" the Machine – currently there is a "+" sign.)
  • Slightly rewritten. Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

A delight to read! --FreshBlueLotus (talk) 22:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

PS: I stumbled here from this article talk page, and thought I'd comment! Didn't have an account so created one! --FreshBlueLotus (talk) 08:50, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Your comments are very appreciated! Thank you, Simon (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from SNUGGUMS[edit]

  • The first instance of New Zealand should be linked, not the second
  • Done. Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Lorde was spotted by Universal Music Group A&R Scott MacLachlan and began writing songs by herself"..... I don't think the "by herself" part is needed here.
  • Removed. Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Lorde acknowledged that she was inspired by hip hop-influenced music artists"..... keep it simple- she took inspiration from hip-hop influenced artists.
  • Done. Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "when she was on holiday after finishing a school term" → "during a school break"
  • If so, we can't know that she had just finished a school term. Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • That's trivial content, i.e.: irrelevant to the article. pedro | talk 00:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, fixed. Simon (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't understand this clearly. Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • If the Background section mentions The New Zealand Herald, then another mention of it in, say, Critical Reception should not be linked. pedro | talk 00:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Exactly, Prism. I went and unlinked them myself. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 00:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Geez, thanks, Simon (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Ella Yelich-O'Connor" should link to Lorde
  • Where should I link? Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It was for "Track listing", but I've done this myself. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 00:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Not much to do here, really. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 05:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Simon (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@SNUGGUMS: Done all. Simon (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Now I officially support! SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 04:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Pedro[edit]

  • Like Snuggums said, there's not much to be done here. However, I did note the absence of AllMusic from the ratings table, and I agree with some points that Snuggums noted (the ones that I commented on, above). I Support this nomination but I want to see those points fixed. pedro | talk 00:09, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


Nominator(s): Retrohead (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

This is my second nomination of this page for FA. I have addressed the prose issues from the previous candidature with the help of Curly Turkey and believe the article now meets the criteria. Please note if there is any unresolved point and I will happily fix the problem.--Retrohead (talk) 21:24, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Curly Turkey[edit]

  • Megadeth's second studio album was produced on a small budget from Combat Records. Not satisfied with these financial limitations, Megadeth soon left Combat and signed with Capitol Records. Capitol bought the rights to the upcoming album and hired producer Paul Lani to remix the earlier recordings. Released in late 1986, Peace Sells... but Who's Buying? was recorded on a budget of $25,000 and had clearer studio production and more sophisticated songwriting.: Is $25,000 the Combat or Capitol budget?
  • "On the road, things escalated from a small border skirmish into a full-on raging war", Mustaine later recalled, "I think a lot of us were inconsistent [on the 1988 tour] because of the guy we were waiting for after the show.": can you show this quote with the original punctuation?
  • Worth mentioning who Megdeth lost the 1993 Grammy to? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
  • and spanned eleven months, becoming Megadeth's most extensive tour to date.: but diidn't the 1987 tour last 72 weeks?
  • press response to the album was mixed. The Los Angeles Times noted the album for carrying diverse compositions, and described it as a "rousing balance" between the older material and experimental tunes.: We're told it got mixed reviews, and then are given a single quote that doesn't reflect that at all. If the quote is meant to introduce the idea of the diversity of the compositions, I'd reword it so it doesn't seem as if you're about to give a sample of the mixed reviews.
  • Mustaine fired manager Bud Prager and self-produced the album.: meaning it was produced by Mustaine or Megadeth?
  • Menza was dismissed shortly after rehearsing began. Mustaine stated that he was insufficiently prepared and "it just didn't work out". Unable to prepare for the physical demands of a full US tour, Menza was sent home a few days before the start of the tour in support of Megadeth's upcoming album: was he dismaissed twice? Was the rehearsal Menza was fired for rehearsal for the tour or the recording? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In May 2006, Megadeth announced that its eleventh studio album, United Abominations, was near completion. Although its release was originally scheduled for October 2006, Mustaine later revealed that the band was "putting the finishing touches on it", and postponed the release to May of the following year.: Would you object if I cut this down to Although scheduled for October 2006, Megadeth's eleventh album, United Abominations, was released May of the following year. or even just Megadeth's eleventh album, United Abominations, was released May 2007.? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 01:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In an interview in for Crypt Magazine, drummer Shawn Drover stated plans for a thirteenth Megadeth album.: This sounds trivial to me. Can we drop it? Actually, I think the whole paragraph could be condensed quite a bit by dropping these kinds of details and jumping right into th ealbum's recording and release. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 04:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Megadeth left Roadrunner Records for Mustaine's label, Tradecraft,: What's the story with this label? Was it freshly founded? If not, how come Megadeth wasn't on it before? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:27, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • At the final show, Jason Newsted joined Megadeth onstage to perform "Phantom Lord", a song Mustaine had written during his stint with Metallica.: Wouldn't it be appropriate to mention Newsted's relation to Metallica? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:30, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • troubles arose concerning the band playing sideshows with Newsted: meaning they violated their contract by playing these shows, or what kind of troubles? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:32, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • There was a mix of "number <digit>" and "number <word>" throughout. I made them all "number <word>", but feel free to go the other way. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:33, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

———Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

  • The $25,000 budget would be from Combat Records. And about the tours being italicized or not, I think they shouldn't be. I'll see the liner notes for the quote. Regarding the Grammy issue, I don't think it's worth mentioning that Nine Inch Nails took the award that year. About the 2001 album, it was produced solely by Mustaine (I think that is stated pretty clear above). Cheers.--Retrohead (talk) 07:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I don't see it in the MoS, but it came up a few times on the MoS talk page, and each time it was recommended not to italicize. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:44, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
    • "self-produced": yes, grammatically that's what is said, but it's still ambiguous as the last time an album was "self produced" (Killing is my Business) it was done by the band. It leaves the reader wondering if what's being said is what's really what was meant. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:08, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Indeed, the information about Thirteen is trivial. As for United Abominations, it might stay since we're talking about an album delay, something that has not happened with any of the previous albums. But I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you'll keep it or not. But if omitting the sentence, please post it to the album article in order not to lose the information. By the way, thanks for the awesome job you're doing.--Retrohead (talk) 09:31, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, I'm done with copyediting. If you can get through the last couple of little things above, I'll be ready to support. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Megadeth didn't play the Soundvawe festival because the concerts with Newsted weren't originally scheduled, or in other words, the tour promoter violated the initial contract. As for Menza, he was fired once in 2004, during rehearsal, with the explanation that he wasn't prepared. It's kinda odd that the tour started before the album was released, but the band was rehearsing for the tour, not that they were doing recording sessions.--Retrohead (talk) 17:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Regarding Ellefson's departure, Mustaine accused Ellefson of slandering him and lying about him to the press that the arm injury was fake.: the source for this is Dave Mustaine, and I'm not quite sure this really summarizes what he said, either. Anyways, I've removed it. Can you find a better source for the Ellefson situation? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:25, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
In the book Mustaine: A Heavy Metal Memoir, Dave said the same thing. I've gone through Ellefson's biography as well, but there is no mentioning of this incident. Honestly, you can't expect Ellefson to admit this is his own book. But since is a third-party source, I think we can go with that one.--Retrohead (talk) 10:47, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
The entire article is a quotation of Mustaine. Mustaine is not a third-party source—he's a primary source, and we must avoid primary sources when the details are (potentially damaging) details about living persons (see WP:BLP). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Alright, removed the entire sentence according to the Wiki policy. Regarding the cancelled shows with Newsted, I'm not sure even the journalist himself knows what the real reason was. I saw that you re-worded it, so I think we can cross that too. As for the quote from the liner notes of So Far, So Good... So What!, it is cited properly, except for the big brackets, which were added so the reader can know to which event Mustaine is referring to.--Retrohead (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, I'm ready to support on prose. I still highly recommend adding a few more images—at the very, very least you should add the logo, as in Metallica, and I really think you should go with that File:Iron Maiden 05.jpg in the "Influences and style" section as well. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:10, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Added the logo with a brief description. Thanks for all of the suggestions and support.--Retrohead (talk) 06:34, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WikiRedactor[edit]

  • Some external links that need to be corrected.
  • I would like to do a check for disambiguation links, but it seems like that tool is down, so I will come back for those later on.
  • In the infobox, "United States" can be abbreviated "U.S."
  • Instead of formatting the titles like "Early days (1983–84)", I would suggest renaming them like "1983–84: Early days", which seems to be a standard practice.
  • I think that the inline music samples in the body of the article can be moved into the "Influences and style" section, which I believe will make them more accessible than they currently are.
  • The "Controversy" section should probably be renamed "Controversies" because there are numerous incidents that they were involved in.
  • The "Studio albums" subheading under "Discography" can be removed because discography sections are only supposed to list studio albums anyway.
  • Also in the "Discography" section, perhaps since there are several studio albums they could be split into two columns?
  • The referral to List of awards and nominations received by Megadeth alone will suffice in the "Awards" section, since it is a well-maintained featured list.

WikiRedactor (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi WikiRedactor. Thanks for the comments, I'll start addressing them as soon as I'm finished with Curly Turkey's ones. Just to note that the list with awards was incorporated because the GA reviewer suggested so, and removing it could drag some oppose from another reviewer. I intended splitting the albums in two columns, but Curly Turkey suggested such a change isn't semantic, so I'll leave that too. The rest of the notes are under way.--Retrohead (talk) 17:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
The way it was handled before was unsemantic, but there are other ways to handle it: for example. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

WikiRedactor, I've done the majority of the notes. I've made the samples more visible and accessible now, but kept them in the history section since their use is about those events. Also kept the list with the awards, as explained above. Thanks for the constructive input.--Retrohead (talk) 15:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

@Retrohead: I'm pleased with the corrections made, and am happy to give my support to the nomination. Good work! WikiRedactor (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WonderBoy1998[edit]

  • "Megadeth is a thrash metal band from Los Angeles, California, formed in 1983 by guitarist Dave Mustaine and bassist David Ellefson, shortly after Mustaine's dismissal from Metallica"- I am not sure the last comma is needed.
  • " A pioneer of the American thrash metal scene, the band is credited as one of the genre's "big four" along with Anthrax, Metallica, and Slayer, who were responsible for thrash metal's development and popularization" - Claims like such should include citations since it is challengeable (See WP:LEADCITE).
  • "prominent" or "common"?
  • " MTV has refused to play two of the band's videos that the network considered to condone suicide."- The lead should generally include general stuff about the band. This seems too specific. The sentence preceding this can cover this by becoming " The group has experienced controversy over its musical approach and lyrics, including canceled concerts and bans of albums and music videos".
  • "Rauch" changes to "Rausch" in the first section.
  • "After considering a few recording labels, Mustaine signed with Combat Records, a New York-based independent label that offered him the highest budget for recording an album and starting a promotional tour"- Seems like Mustaine joined the label, not the entire band.
  • If Killing Is My Business... and Business Is Good! is referred as such throughout the article, then why even have one instance as Killing Is My Business...?
  • Side comment- Oh god drugs drugs drugs everywhere
  • I don't know if it is intentional or not but this article seems very Mustaine-centric.
  • More comments later. The prose is good in general. I suggest making sure that everything mentioned is supported by the sources and that nothing is directly taken from the sources (without being put in quotations). --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a close look at the prose, there were some spelling and copyediting mistakes that I accidentally overlooked. About the "big four" cite, trust me, there are zillion references on Google Books that confirm that moniker, and that is probably the least challenging aspect of the lead. Indeed, the article sounds Mustaine-centric because Mustaine was actually the band (he is even jokingly nicknamed as "MegaDave"). All other notes, except for the comma in the opening sentence, were addressed.--Retrohead (talk) 21:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
That comma could easily be dropped without affecting the meaning, but it's up to you. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:10, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes indeed that comma is not needed at all. As for the challengeable part, the "probably the least challenging aspect of the lead" is coming from you, who I assume to be a fan of the band. A person like me, who does not know much about the band (other than the fact that they share a song's title with Shakira), may not find this justifiable without supporting sources. If necessary, include the zillion references if that works to make this article stronger. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 11:45, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
If you're honestly challenging the "big four" thing, then perhaps a cite is warranted, but seriously, no more than a few seconds googling would dispel any doubts. The "big four" designation goes back at least as far as the early 90s, when I first heard it. It's a firmly-rooted meme, and cited more than once in the body. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 13:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Fine then. Metal is not big in this part of the world, so maybe that's why I am not aware. Also, the MTV point has not been addressed. And if the Mustaine-centric tone can be explained through the "MegaDave" thing, a suggestion would be to include that term somewhere in the article. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 13:56, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Minor correction to Curly Turkey's note, the "big four" tag has been used since 1986/87, when all of those bands released the "genre-defining" albums. I thought about dropping the MTV sentence, but do we have an alternative to replace that? The lead will become too brief in that case. As for the article being Mustaine-centric, it is because the sources have focused on him as the band's leading figure. If you check the members timeline, you'll see that him and Ellefson were the only consistent members, in addition to Mustaine writing and composing 98% of the group's songs.--Retrohead (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Removing a sentence will certainly not make the lead "brief." I will not focus on that anymore now and just lay out a few more points.
  • I am randomly reading sections for prose check. There is one in the Controversies section. "The government to pointed the band's mascot Vic Rattlehead..." - You know what's wrong here.
  • I am randomly picking out a sentence and checking whether it is supported by the source. This will be formally done by another editor later I believe. But nevermind- "The band spent nearly four months in the studio with Norman, writing and recording what became Megadeth's most commercially successful effort, Countdown to Extinction" - The Chicago Tribune source does not really confirm this. The four months part is absent, and the "commercially" successful part, while true since it's got their highest certifications, is only implied by the source: it calls the disc "commercial," which is not the equivalent of "commercially successful."
The Google definition of "commercial" states "making or intended to make a profit". Nonetheless, that can easily be confirmed, since it's the only multi-platinum Megadeth album (2× Platinum according to RIAA). The intro being short was specifically pointed in the GA review, and having two videos banned by MTV is not something you commonly see at other artists. Referring to Vic Rattlehead, can you be more specific on what is incorrect with the sentence?--Retrohead (talk) 09:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
That google definition is exactly what I meant. As for the double platinum cert: in addition to the book, cite the certifying body database too i.e RIAA (Wikipedia:Record_charts#Certifications states "Certifications should be sourced directly to certifying agencies, most of which provide a searchable database."). "The government to pointed the band's mascot Vic Rattlehead as inappropriate and told the members that they would be arrested if they performed." - Either that is a "too" or "pointed to". The choice of words "pointed" and "told" isn't all that great too. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 10:13, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The sentence about the Vic was corrected. As for Countdown being the band's most commercially successful album, even Nielsen Soundscan reported 2,322,000 copies sold in the US, and compared to Youthanasia's 997,000 (their second best) is undoubtedly the group's best seller. It is clearly written in the liner notes that the recording started on January 6 and ended on April 28, 1992→which is nearly four months.--Retrohead (talk) 12:51, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not doubting that it hasn't sold that much. What I mean to say is that "Released in July 1992, Countdown to Extinction entered the Billboard 200 chart at number two, and earned double-platinum status in the United States" should also cite this. I also suggest using better words than "pointed" and "told" in that Vic sentence. And you need to include all that nielsen stuff and liner notes in this sentence "The band spent nearly four months in the studio with Norman, writing and recording what became Megadeth's most commercially successful effort, Countdown to Extinction" instead of explaining it all to me. My comments stop here.--WonderBoy1998 (talk) 14:46, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The liner notes are already cited (ref 63) and the certification number is sourced with Joyner's book. Appreciate your input so far.--Retrohead (talk) 17:47, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The certification number may be covered in the book, fine. But as per the guideline suggestion of Wikipedia:Record_charts#Certifications ("Certifications should be sourced directly to certifying agencies, most of which provide a searchable database"), I highly recommend adding a reference pointing to the RIAA database. I will give my support once this change is made. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 19:16, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Agree. The cite was added.--Retrohead (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Support --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 20:07, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Nikkimaria[edit]

Image review
  • Several captions could use editing for grammar
  • File:Megadeth_in_Porto_Alegre.jpg: I think the mascot's image is prominent enough in this image that we would need to consider its copyright status
  • Per WP:SAMPLE, non-free samples should not exceed the shorter of 30 seconds or 10% of the original track. "Since "Peace Sells" is only 4 minutes long, 27 seconds is too long a sample. The FUR for that excerpt is also quite weak.
  • File:MegadethLogoDileo.png: can we add in the actual creator and date of creation for the logo?
  • File:Megadeth_Symphony_of_Destruction.ogg: please fill in the "n.a.". Nikkimaria (talk) 11:28, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, according to the Template:Information, the author and the source fields in File:MegadethLogoDileo.png are already filled. Did you mean to incorporate the actual author (Dave Mustaine) and the year the logo was actually created (1986)? As for the first note, can you be a little more precise and mention which of the image captions you find unsuitable?--Retrohead (talk) 20:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, nevermind, the notes were addressed, except for shortening the "Peace Sells" audio, which Dawnseeker2000 should handle it soon. The rationales were properly filled, and the prose in the image and audio descriptions was corrected too.--Retrohead (talk) 08:40, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Just uploaded a new, shortened version of the sample. Hope this is works out for the article. I chose to take a little extra off (six seconds altogether) so the end would not be mid-sentence. Cheers, Dawnseeker2000 21:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from L1A1 FAL[edit]

Source review

Note: Firstly, I feel that I should make clear that I have had significant involvement with this article, and the topic at large. If that is deemed to constitute a conflict of interest, please feel free to dismiss my input. I was asked to do a source check. I am a novice at FA discussions, so please bear with me.

  • The first thing I wanted to bring up, what's the status of Blabbermouth, in regards to it being an RS or not? I seem to remember some debate as to whether it was or not. Personally, I consider it so, and use it as a reference myself, but for the sake of objectiveness, I think I should being this up.
  • Another thing, when an article is written by an unnamed staff member, the author format should be standardized, there's a few variants present. Should either be standardized as "Staff writer" or "[Name of publication] staff", in my opinion.
  • Citation 5 is from a fansite, It seems to be an archived thing from Hit Parader. I think this is legit, and since it is cited as originally being from Hit Parader I would let it stay, if there is not any other source available.
  • Citation 31: is similar to citation 5. from, seems to be an archive of a legitimate article
  • Citation 32: concerns me. Is Metal Rules a legitimate source? I'm leaning towards no, personally. Input?
  • Citation 38: same as #5 and 31; usage seems legitimate
  • Citation 46: is "" legit in the context it's being used in?
  • Citation 65: Goldmine magazine... I can't say I am familiar with this publication. I am assuming it is legit, but never hurts to ask.
  • Citation 86: same as #5, 31, 38; usage seems legitimate though
  • Citations 87 & 88: Both are Youtube videos citing appearances on Letterman. Does the copyright status of the videos matter, or are they ok as is?
  • Citation 94: same as #5, 31, 38, 86; usage seems legitimate though
  • Citation 102: Metal Sludge. I don't like this source, it seems a bit lacking on the quality scale. It supports the thing about Menza finding a tumor in his knee. That seems like a fact that should be verifiable in a better source, and I believe a better source should be used, if possible. If there is a consensus that the source is okay, or no other source can be found, I'll drop my objection.
  • Citation 105: same as #5, 31, 38, 86, 94; I think it's legit
  • Citation 108: I am assuming this is legit, but again, doesn't hurt to ask a second opinion
  • Citation 111: Youtube. Citing a live performance, just concerned if the citation is done right.
  • Citation 116: Metal Sludge; see # 102 for my concerns. It cites something about a tour with Motley Crue and Anthrax, and the Northern Ireland concert incident (which should be documented well enough to cite from a better source)
  • Citation 132: same as #5, 31, 38, et. al. I think it's legit
  • Citation 140: Revolver, cited via the band's website. Is there a better way to do this one?
  • Citation 147: Blogcritics. This absolutely needs to be removed and replaced. It cites the release date of one of the Gigantour concert DVDs. I am sure this information can be obtained from Loudwire, Blabbermouth, or another legit news cite.
  • Citation 153: I think a better source than can be found. Ultimately, my concern hinges on whether this Chad Bowar person is a reputable source.
  • Citation 170: same issue as #153
  • Citation 176: I want to point out that I do not have a problem with this source (Alex Jones/ because of the context and subject of the citation. Brought this up in case anyone else questions it.
  • Citation 231: same issue as #65
  • Citation 239: this source is a blog (, but it's an interview. a second opinion would be welcome here.

Everything else looks okay to me, though if someone else wants to double check, go ahead. Additionally, the bibliography sources look okay, too.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 00:17, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

The second note is done, went with the latter variant. As for, I think it can stay since it is not self-published and has an editorial oversight. Metal Sludge is a website dedicated to heavy metal, and has almost identical publishing policy as Metal Rules. The references are actually interviews with Menza and Mustaine for the website, but if anyone else objects, I'll try to find a more suitable solution.--Retrohead (talk) 17:02, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Blabbermouth wasn't really a concern for me, I just remembered hearing some issue about it a while back. As for the rest, it works for me, if nobody has any further objections. I might check minor style things in the cites, like date format, etc. just to make sure that's all consistent. Did you check to see if there are any double citations that could be merged? I wouldn't think there would be many, if any, but you never know.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 02:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Retrohead asked me to weigh in on some of these sources. My thoughts (only on sources I feel confident in commenting on, if I don't mention a source then I'm not sure):
  • I use Blabbermouth as a reliable source as well, and it is supported by WP:ALBUM/SOURCES (I know this isn't an album article, but if it's acceptable there, I would assume it's acceptable in related articles), as long as it isn't used to support contentious BLP issues.
  • According to the Metal Rules article, they have been cited by the New York Times, and BW&BK. They also appear to have a professional staff. So long as what it's citing isn't too contentious, I'd support using that source.
Ok, I'll drop my objection to that source--L1A1 FAL (talk) 00:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Youtube – It seems to me that if the article uses Youtube to directly support something, such as the band appearing on Letterman and what songs they played, then there should be some sort of news piece out there that talks about them appearing. Basically, it seems like original research to just directly cite a video of their appearances instead of reporting what reliable secondary sources say about their appearances. If a better source than Youtube can be found, I would suggest using it instead.
L1A1 FAL, MrMoustacheMM, all I managed to find are these two references: MSN Entertainment, confirming Megadeth were featured on Letterman in episode 330 (November 18, 1994) and Menza's webiste, stating which songs they played on the show. Are they useful?--Retrohead (talk) 23:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd be OK with those. The first source confirms the appearance date, and the second one confirms the song titles. I think Menza's website would qualify as a RS under WP:PRIMARY. L1A1 FAL, your thoughts? MrMoustacheMM (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Revolver – It would be much better to have the original magazine issue cited instead of Megadeth's website quoting Revolver.
Couldn't find the original Revolver review, but found a reference by The Philippine Star which quotes Revolver.--Retrohead (talk) 20:15, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Chad Bowar ( – Chad Bowar writes for Loudwire ( Loudwire isn't listed at WP:ALBUM/SOURCES, and all I could find at WP:RSN was an unanswered question. If Loudwire is considered reliable, then I would use his writing too. If not, then I wouldn't. That's up to a larger discussion than just me though. See also this discussion thread.
My cautiousness was more a case of the source than the individual. For all I know, anyone could get on and claim to be an expert reviewer or whatever. But if Bowar's reputation is good, then that's fine by me.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 00:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • – I generally consider interviews to be reliable, even if the site normally wouldn't be considered as such, so long as there is no reason to suspect the interview has been altered (or made up). Not sure though how stringent the requirements for Featured Articles are in this type of situation. That being said, if a more reliable source reports on this interview (Blabbermouth is often a good spot for this, depending on how old the interview is), I'd use that source instead. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 17:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Goldmine is a print magazine that was started in the 70s. Decade-spanning magazines that are physically printed are just about always going to have the editorial oversight and policy required to be considered an RS, so I approve. Sergecross73 msg me 10:41, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • – While I wouldn't use it to source a controversial musical stance or to define the band's genre or anything, because I don't believe they are especially an authority on music. But I would think they would be fine for sourcing something like a direct quote from a band member, as it is used here. Sergecross73 msg me 13:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Voices From The Dark Side – I'm not 100% sure on this one. Although the interview is authorized by Steven Willems, the website doesn't seem like a high quality source. The bad thing is that an interview done by a more reputable journal is hard (or almost impossible) to find. Unfortunately, Dark Angel is an underground band that disbanded in 1992 because of poor album sales, and they obviously haven't got large media coverage.--Retrohead (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from SNUGGUMS[edit]

  • "The group formed in 1983 by guitarist"..... was formed
  • "As of 2014 Megadeth has received"..... needs comma after "2014"
  • "Early days" section would be better titled something like "Formation"
  • "The resulting recording quality was raw and unpolished"..... somewhat confusing....
  • "In February 1987 Megadeth"..... needs comma after "1987"
  • "In January 2000 guitarist"..... needs comma after "2000"
  • "In January 2002 Mustaine"..... needs comma after "2002"
  • "On April 3 Mustaine"..... needs comma after "April 3"
  • "In May 2006 Megadeth"..... needs comma after "2006"
  • "In January 2008 Glen Drover"..... needs comma after "2008"
  • "Mustaine has made numerous inflammatory statements" → "Mustaine has often made inflammatory statements"
  • "For instance, in 1988 MTV deemed"..... needs comma after "1988", and "For instance" isn't really needed

More to come later on. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 04:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Those commas are optional; it's up to Retrohead which style to go with, as long as it's consistent within the article. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 04:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, the commas were added to retain consistency. I'm sure they were there, but must have been omitted during the copyediting. The other notes are done too.--Retrohead (talk) 08:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


  • "This triggered a riot and fighting"..... doesn't seem very encyclopedic, maybe "This started a fight" or "This started a feud"
Replaced it with "elicited", defined as "evoking or draw out a response from someone in reaction to..."
  • "Controversial and misinterpreted lyrics have caused complications for the band"..... led to conflicts would be better
There were only video bans because of the lyrics, not that the band clashed with someone because of the themes.
  • "Mustaine became a born-again Christian"..... if known, I'd include the specific division of Christianity he took up
Unfortunately no. I assume he took Catholicism, but we haven't got a source for that.
  • Interesting read, but not what I was looking for. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 22:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "were also influential on the group's guitar style"..... I think "also influenced the group's guitar style" would be better
It was originally written the way you propose, but Curly Turkey re-worded it this way, which I approve. I assume it was done because "influenced [something]" would be repetitive with Led Zeppelin being "also influential on the group's guitar style" or Megadeth being "a direct influence on death metal" and etc.
  • I'd remove "gloomy" from "Megadeth's gloomy lyrics" as it seems POV
Done. This question was previously raised, but forgot to remove it from the article's body (removed it only from the lead back then).
  • "The lyricism centers on nihilistic themes" → "The lyrics involve nihilistic themes"
I think "centers" suggests that nihilistic themes were dominant in the group's lyricism. "Involves", on the other hand, might be interpreted that nihilism was one of the many viewpoints the lyrics present.
  • In Artistry, include what critics have said about their music
Can you be a little more specific about which musical aspect you want additional research? There are the influences (1st para), Megadeth's songwriting routine (2nd para), musical style from the band's formation until the early 2000s and playing skills (3rd para), description by selected musicologists (4th para), and finally, the lyrical themes (5th para).
  • I was thinking of a structure like the "Musical style and development" in The Beatles, with subsectioning and such. Perhaps more detail. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'd give "Legacy" its own section rather than subsection.
I originally had that idea, but eventually abandoned it because the "Legacy" mentions Megadeth's influence on other bands and genres, which builds on the previous sub-heading.
  • Maybe more detail on legacy would warrant its own section, but this is optional. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

You're quite close! SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 20:56, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't manage to do the majority of the notes, but I think the notifications were adequately explained or tried to be addressed.--Retrohead (talk) 08:17, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm almost ready to support..... SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Hey Snuggums, found something about the timing when lyrics and music are composed, and added it here. As for the sub-headings of the artistry section, it was divided like this, but CrowzRSA suggested to merge the "Influences and writing style" and "Musicianship and lyricism" into a larger section called "Influences and style", as it is now.--Retrohead (talk) 08:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Now I support SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 20:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Mahan-class destroyer[edit]

Nominator(s): Pendright

The 18 Mahan-class destroyers incorporated notable improvements in design over their predecessors, including advanced propulsion machinery, more torpedo tubes, and superimposed gun shelters. They served in the Pacific Theater of Operations during World War II. A few of them were devastated by the attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, and others escaped unharmed. In the South Pacific, some of them took part in campaigns to retake the Santa Cruz Islands, New Guinea, Guadalcanal, the Philippine Islands, Okinawa, Iwo Jima, and others. Ultimately, six of them were lost in combat, two were expended in postwar tests, and the remainder were eventually sold or scrapped. Together, the class earned 111 battle stars for their service in the war. This article just passed an A-class review.

In World War II, I served aboard USS Mahan and Cone. My tour of duty took me to the South Pacific and Europe from 1943 to 1946, when I was honorably discharged. Thanks to those who might find the time to review the article.

Pendright (talk) 19:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
N.B. This review was only transcluded to the FAC list on 1 July 2014. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 17:30, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking. I got rid of a few "spring"s, in one case substituting "April", which isn't stated but is strongly implied by the source. Please check whether you agree with this. WP:SEASON is good guidance that we shouldn't use seasons to denote times, unless the season is important (Autumn harvest etc). Examples like Hawaii are in places where (I believe) there are no seasons to speak of. Captions which aren't sentences don't need periods. I added the propulsion system to the lead. Looking good so far. I am looking forward to properly reading it. --John (talk) 22:43, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks much John. - Dank (push to talk) 00:29, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time to review the article. I agree with the substitution change. I’m on board with spring and summer and your point about captions is well taken.
However, an explanation is necessary about the sentence in the lead that contains your addition. This has been changed several times since my original version and now reads: “The Mahans were the first of many new destroyers to use steam turbines, a new propulsion system that was cheaper, faster and more efficient than reciprocating engines.” It should read: “The Mahans were the first destroyers to use a new propulsion system that was cheaper, faster, and more efficient than their predecessors.” I should have been more vigilant about the changes. A look at the last paragraph of the article’s Design section and the entire Construction section will help clear this up. Thank you! Pendright (talk) 15:19, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Why wouldn't you mention the propulsion system in the lead, if it's important? --John (talk) 21:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
If I understand your question correctly, I did think it important enough to mention in the lead. My original wording (still intact 2 February 2014, passing GA status 15 December 2013) said: “The class introduced a new propulsion system that changed the technology for future wartime destroyers.” Although short, it seemed to meet the requirements of the WK: Manual of Style/Lead section, serving as an introduction and summary of an important aspect of the article. Pendright (talk) 01:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I think it is better to actually state the type of propulsion in the lead. --John (talk) 08:44, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree and have done so with that idea in mind. BTW, thank you for all the various fixes. Pendright (talk) 13:11, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Question Sold or scrapped? --John (talk) 23:59, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Both, according to DANFS - Pendright (talk) 13:27, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments As a general comment, the article repeatedly refers to 'Auckland, New Zealand' - I think that the country only needs to be specified once. There are also other redundant geographical terms sprinkled through the article. As more specific comments, having so many ship histories is a real challenge for this article, and I'm not sure that they're up to FA standard at present. My comments on this section of the article are:

  • "a Japanese Kamikaze squadron " - were these suicide aircraft or suicide ships? (the term squadron can apply to either). Also, I don't think that Kamikaze air units were organised or deployed as formal squadrons
These were Japanese suicide aircraft. True, the word squadron has many meanings and may not be a good fit here. So, I substituted “a group of Japanese suicide aircraft” instead. In Kamikaze, Raymond Lamont-Brown notes (pp. 63-64) that the Kamikaze was organized into units, and deployed on a “standard best ratio” sortie formulation of five Kamikaze, three to attack and two escort aircraft. Group seizes could vary, depending on circumstances. Pendright (talk) 23:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "In April, Cummings was sent to the Indian Ocean where she joined the British Eastern Fleet" - needs context. She was probably one of the ships sent to escort the USS Sarratoga.
Added context - Pendright (talk) 00:51, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Cummings rejoined the main US fleet" - there was no such formation as the main US fleet as the US Pacific Fleet operated in several major groups (the Fast Carrier Task Force was the main striking force - and I presume is what is being referred to here, but there were also huge amphibious forces)
US 3rd Fleet - fixed - Pendright (talk) 12:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Drayton assisted in the search for the lost American pilot" - did she participate in the search, or provide assistance to the forces which were engaged in it?
Assisted was my word of choice. The source actually says Drayton took part in the search, which is to say she participated in it. Pendright (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "she escorted a convoy to Christmas Island" - I suspect that the link here should be to the Christmas Island in the Pacific, and not the one in the Indian Ocean
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 15:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Drayton escorted Australian troops from Townsville, Australia, to Milne Bay, New Guinea" - ships carrying Australian troops, not Australian troops ;)
Fixed by John 1 June 2014 - Pendright (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Suva in Tahiti" - Suva is in Fiji
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 15:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "the offensive to regain the Japanese-held Mariana Islands" - not sure about 're-gain': only Guam was pre-war US territory. The other islands which were invaded had been Japanese territory since the 1920s (and had previously been German, from memory)
You’re correct: regain is not the appropriate word here. I substituted, gain possession of - Pendright (talk) 15:57, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, the ship screened carriers during the air strikes on the Japanese fleet" - which carriers and which fleet? (the escort carriers off Leyte which were engaged by Japanese battleships, or the fast carriers off Luzon which attacked the Japanese carrier force? - again, I presume that you're referring to the fast carrier force)
    • Downes was assigned to TG 38.1.2. at the time, so yes, she was screening the FCTF attacking Ozawa's decoys. I've clarified the text in the article. Parsecboy (talk) 13:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "was able to fire six torpedoes by local control at a Japanese battleship, with unknown results" - has the massive body of post-war scholarship on the Guadalcanal campaign really not clarified this? (I'd suggest consulting a better source than DANFS here)
Rohwer and Cressman both mention the sinking of Cushing, but nothing else. Roscoe describes the torpedo incident in some detail, which Is the source used. Pendright (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "took part in landing a Marine division" - that would be the 1st Marine Division, and it seems preferable to specify this
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 16:22, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • the landing by an Australian unit - the unit was the 7th Division (or you could simply refer to 'an Australian force' given that lots of units were assigned to the division
    • Changed to "an Australian force" (but I have no preference). - Dank (push to talk) 23:50, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "followed by a trip to Japan in August 1945" - what did this involve? This was obviously a pretty dramatic time to be in Japanese waters, and 'trip' seems rather laconic!
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 23:37, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "In March, she was part of the Combined Far Eastern Fleet" - see the above comment for Cummings (also, I don't think that there was a 'Combined Far Eastern Fleet' - the 'Eastern Fleet' was a British unit to which forces from various other countries were attached)
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 20:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "launching strikes against Sabang, Indonesia" - she participated in these strikes, but didn't launch them Nick-D (talk) 00:00, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Fixed - Pendright (talk) 19:35, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing the article. And thanks too for recognizing the challenge of working with 18 individual ship summaries. Pendright (talk) 22:39, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Those changes all look good to me. Nick-D (talk) 10:35, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Pendright left a message on my userpage that he's not sure how to respond. I see some of these have been handled already; anyone want to take a crack at the rest? - Dank (push to talk) 00:35, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Dank apparently misunderstood my post, I am willing and able to respond and I intend to do so myself. Pendright (talk) 01:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Sorry for misunderstanding. What I asked for is nothing special; we help out at FAC all the time. - Dank (push to talk) 02:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
      • No problem! Ordinarily, I’d accept all the help I could get. In this case, I think it’s my responsibility to make an effort to address all the questions put to me by the reviewers. If I get stuck, I’ll yell! Sorry for this little episode. Pendright (talk) 07:33, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Looks to be an extremely solid article and not bogged down in the (slightly) arcane technical detail which sometimes affects "-class" ship articles! Just a couple of things which don't affect my support:
    • There seems to be an inconsistency in the table heading style. All bold, all grey whatever, but they should probably be the same.
Makes sense - Pendright (talk) 00:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I've made some very minor MOS changes here.
Much obliged - Pendright (talk) 00:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
And, of course, great to see a Wikipedia editor who was actually there! Brigade Piron (talk) 14:09, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your support and kind words. Pendright (talk) 00:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Image review - only one photo needs to be addressed:

  • File:USSFlusserDD368.jpg - appears to have been uploaded from Navsource, after any markings that would identify the photo have been cropped off. There's no source there to prove it was a USN photo, so without another source (in a book, perhaps?) we can't use this photo. There are, however, several photos on the Navsource page that still have their "Official Photograph" stamps, and I can upload any of those if you'd like. There's also File:USS Flusser (DD-368)Jun44.png, which has a good source - the camouflage is an interesting pattern.
Please do, that would be very helpful - Pendright (talk) 00:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
You want to use the camouflage one? Parsecboy (talk) 11:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Sure, thanks! Pendright (talk) 17:21, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • All other photos are sourced as USN photos and thus fine to use.
Good news! - Pendright (talk) 00:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The only other suggestion for the article that I'd make is to link some of the major battles - Coral Sea, Tassafaronga, Leyte Gulf, etc. - in the introduction. You might also want to link Operation Crossroads in the lead. I might be too involved between too involved my edits and the help I've given Pendright over the past year and half to offer an unqualified support, but the closing delegate can determine what weight to give my comments. Parsecboy (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
For my clarification, are you saying to weave a reference of each of these battles into the lead and then link them at that point? Pendright (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking something along the lines of "All 18 ships saw action in World War II, entirely in the Pacific Theater of Operations, including during the battles of Coral Sea, the Guadalcanal campaign, Leyte Gulf, [and anything else you want to include]. Their participation in major and secondary campaigns included the bombardment of beachheads, amphibious landings, task force screening, convoy and patrol duty, and anti-aircraft and submarine warfare."
And then "Six ships were lost in combat and two were expended in the postwar Operation Crossroads nuclear tests" or something like that. Parsecboy (talk) 11:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Okay, good! Pendright (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Done - please look it over - Pendright (talk) 12:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Check alphabetization of References
  • Missing bibliographic info for Hodges and Friedman
  • All DANFS links should include that as work
  • Hümmelchen or Hummelchen?
  • Naval Institute Press or US Naval Institute Press? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:14, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Subject to review, I believe I’ve cleaned up the items in question – except the one for DANFS. The term is unfamiliar to me, so would you be kind enough to explain it further. Thank you! Pendright (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I've taken care of the work parameter for the DANFS entries. Parsecboy (talk) 21:01, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! Pendright (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Comment leaning support. I tend to review these as a person who is unfamiliar with ships that don't have a Lido Deck, but I can't resist the FAC nominating statement ... thank you for your service ... a few quibbles ...
  • "Rear-Admiral" are you certain on the hyphen? Further ahead, you refer to Rear Admiral Daniel Barbey sans hyphen.
Hyphen removed from Rear Admiral - Pendright (talk) 00:33, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "including during the Guadalcanal Campaign, the Battles of Santa Cruz Islands, Leyte Gulf and Iwo Jima." there seems to be a missing "and" before "the Battles". Which I'm not sure should be capitalized.
Inserted the word and - Pendright (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
For whatever it’s worth, my notion for using upper case was the word Battles refers to official place names. Pendright (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "to accommodate No. 3 gun ahead of No. 4." I think you should probably make clearer that No. 3 was moved, not eliminated, that all five guns were retained (I only was certain of this once I consulted the infobox). I take it that this is the subject of "This required relocating one 5"/38 gun to the aft deckhouse." a few lines down? This should probably be consolidated.
Done - If the changes are not what you had in mind, please let me know. Pendright (talk) 01:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "The traditional destroyer machinery was replaced with a new generation of land-based machinery" can an example of the replaced machinery be given?
Done - Pendright (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "the tripod foremast" suggest "their" replace "the" to keep the focus on the ships and avoid the change of subject.
Done - Pendright (talk) 16:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Displacement increased to 1,500 tons from 1,365 tons." this should probably be merged into the statistics in the next paragraph. I see the 1,500 figure is there already (properly with convert template)
  • Consider cropping the image at the foot of the infobox to remove the caption.
  • "twelve 21-inch torpedoes" I see a link in the infobox to that armament article. I would put one here as well.
Dome -Pendright (talk) 22:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • If most naval historians don't consider them a separate class, then is the word "class" properly applied to them? I should, as a textual note, try to reduce the use of the word "class" in the first sentence by the way.
  • Was the propulsion system based on those used in the passenger liners? If so, then the technology was available to the US Navy, wasn't it? If so, then I would change the phrase to "used in the US Navy" or similar, as well as state that the basis of the technology was the system used in the Gibbs liners.
Ships in class
  • Conyngham "destroyed by sinking" is there a more artful way of putting this?
  • Shaw space needed between 1 and October. I would routinely correct this, but I am doing this offline.
Service history--Cummings
  • "Trincomalee, Ceylon ... Sabang, Indonesia" watch for consistency in whether you refer to places by WWII-era or modern names. For example New Guinea/Papua New Guinea
  • "The ship operated off Okinawa during its invasion" What standard are you using to decide if battles referred to in the text should be piped to?
  • "Hollandia Jayapura" You referred to this place using parentheses for the second name before. Later on, you refer to it just as "Hollandia". Not saying any of this is necessarily wrong, just drawing it to your attention.
  • " Ponape Island" link?
  • "Following repairs at Saipan, she patrolled between Saipan " I would replace the second Saipan with "there".
  • "battle of Midway Island" definitely worth a link.
  • "Decommissioned in December 1946, Conyngham was used in the atomic weapons test at Bikini in 1946" Before decommissioning or in whatever remained of the year after December?
  • "She reported to Pearl Harbor in April" Wasn't she already there?
  • "prisons of war from Japan." presumably prisoners.
  • "Battle of Santa Cruz". By a majority of five to three, you call this the "Battle of Santa Cruz Islands", although with one of the minority, you do not capitalize battle. Please check.
  • "Nagasaki Harbor, Kyushu, Japan, in August 1945" I guess what I'm wondering is if there's anything to be said about Nagasaki's atomic bombing (I realize the ship did not participate in that, but it was plainly there soon after).
  • "Afterward, the ship rolled onto her side and sank" I would strike the word "Afterward," Plainly it didn't happen before.
  • "Doolittle raid on their air strike against Tokyo." Are you sure on the plural?
  • "Munda Island" link?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support pending the resolution of Wehwalt's comments above. I've also made a few copyedits to the lead that I'd appreciate you checking for factual accuracy! Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 18:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Pendright doesn't seem to have been active at WP for a week or two so I've emailed him. Cehers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
A short stay in the hospital took me offline for a time. Thank you all for your patience. Pendright (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

1940 Brocklesby mid-air collision[edit]

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 09:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Imagine, if you will, two aircraft colliding in mid-air and, rather than exploding or spinning out of control, they remain locked together in piggyback fashion and continue to fly by virtue of the still-functioning engines of one plane and the control surfaces of the other –- not to mention one pilot's iron nerves! Well, imagine no longer, it happened over the little town of Brocklesby in south-eastern Australia during World War II. Add to this a tragically ironic aftermath and I think we have some ideal Main Page fodder, assuming it passes muster here. Thanks to everyone who took part in the recent MilHist A-Class Review, and in advance to all who comment here! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 12:20, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Tks Dan! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed and captioned. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:45, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Tks Nikki! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Support from Hamiltonstone.

  • Extraordinary event, with a particularly nasty twist in the tail for poor Fuller.
  • Good background as well as detail of the accident and the fates of the four airmen involved.
  • Referencing looks sound.
  • You might want to think about giving slightly more detail for the external links, such as who hosts them. They read as both rather bare and abrupt as currently phrased. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, good point, will do. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:02, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - says everything I'd expect it to say and more. To be sure, it's an extremely interesting story. I'll admit thatI did have to look up what a cowling was, so a wikilink there might have been useful, but I know links and wiki-markup in general are discouraged within quotes. Otherwise: excellent! – Juliancolton | Talk 22:48, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I think sometimes a link in a quote is justified and this may be such a case; if no-one objects I'd be happy to see it there. In any event, thanks for your review and support, Julian. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:58, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • You've got two different styles for newspaper refs: FNs 13 and 15, versus FNs 21-22. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I've altered the templates/parameters for consistency although it looks like the differing appearance might be due to different info being available, e.g. author in some cases but not others. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:42, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Portrait of a Young Girl (Christus)[edit]

Ceoil (talk), Johnbod (talk)

This portrait often appears in popular overviews of 15th century art, but has recieved relatively little scholarship. Painted around 1470, it contains many Early Netherlandish and Gothic characteristics, and sits uneasily between the two. This was a terribly difficult article to write. Ceoil (talk) 02:59, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Curly Turkey[edit]

It would I think be wrong to call the article by such a common title, especially one made up by modern curators. In fact we don't have any other articles on paintings called this, so there is as yet no disam page. There's a case for lumping it with Portrait of a Young Woman (a disam page). I don't think she is in fact what a "young girl" normally means, but I suppose Berlin in 1820-odd had no word for teenager. Perhaps we should do a stub on the Durer of the same name, as it happens in the same museum. Johnbod (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'll leave that to you to deceide, but why (Christus, Berlin) rahter than just (Christus)? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:28, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
It is often refered in the literature as the Berlin portrait. Ceoil (talk) 00:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • the inline cites are not required in the lead; it would be nice (cleaner & friendlier) to see them moved out
They are MOS compliant, and the quote at least requires one. Typically, reviewers are more likely to complain in the opposite direction. Johnbod (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I know they're MoS compliant, and I wouldn't oppose over them, I just think it would be more reader-friendly without them. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • a "Background" section would be nice---there's a lot of background taken for granted in the prose, not just diretly with regards to painting, but also stuff such as "the patronage of the newly emerging middle class, secularising portraiture, and removing it from the preserve of royalty"
That's all in the FA Early_Netherlandish_painting; I've made the link clearer (lead 1st line). One could add a bit. Johnbod (talk) 15:05, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I assume it would be, but it shouldn't be assumed that many have clicked through before reading this article. If it could be summed up in a couple of sentneces, I think it would be helpful. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The MoS recommends "c." with a period, but doesn't specifically say to avoid "c" without a period ...
Done. Ceoil (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Waagen associated lettering; Joel Upton supports; Max Friedländer proposed: Who?
Gustav Waagen link moved to first mention, and explained. I don't like saying that people who one would expect from the context to be art historians are in fact just that. Of course if they are not that's a different matter. Johnbod (talk) 03:50, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • a small oil on oak panel painting: "oil-on-oak" should be hyphenated here, but I think it would read better as a small oil panel painting on oak or a small oil painting on oak panel
Done Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • that of Netherlandish portraiture: is there something good to link to here?
Early_Netherlandish_painting#Portraiture , done Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The wall sets her in a recognisable interior: recognizable as an interior, or as a particular interior? What is "recognisable"?
Gone now, I think. Johnbod (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It is both a major stylistic advance in Christus' oeuvre and that of Netherlandish portraiture, not just that the sitter is no longer set against a flat, neutral background; here she is placed in an airy, three-dimensional, realistic setting.: the "not just" signals to the reader that something like a "but" would follow, but instead we're greeted with a semicolon in a somewhat jarring manner. It also makes the assumption that the reader would know that earlier paintings had "flat, nutral background"s.
Redone. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • her complex stare is reserved, but alert and intelligent: does "alert and intelligent" contrast with "reserved"?
Enough, I think Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Art historian Joel Upton described the lady as resembling "a polished pearl, almost opalescent, lying on a cushion of black velvet.": I'm not a fan of these kinds of quotes in the lead. Is it widely quoted on the literature on the painting, so that it would somehow constitute part of the "overview" of the subject that the lead is supposed to be?
No, but since one is never able to say anything enthusiastic about works thanks to the ever-vigilant PEACOCK patrol, this is best done by quotation (would be in any case) and it is best done at the start. No, the quotation is not well-known, but little is about this work. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, at the very least, the quote should also appear in the body that the lead's supposed to summarize. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it works like that. Obviously, one only needs it once (like the measurements, which often appear in the lead for painting FAs). Johnbod (talk) 15:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The Northern Renaissance article capitalizes "Northern Renaissance". Is the lowercase a common, accepted alternative?
Caps added. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • the most significant successor of the second generation: at first blush, this reads as if he had succeeded the second generation.
Rewritten Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • naturalistic enough to be a space within her home: what about being "naturalistic" would classify it as a space in her home?
rewritten Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • which Sterling notes is indebted to van Eyck: I assume the influence of van Eyck rather than the man himself?
Yes, is this unclear? Johnbod (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • oriental eyes: link to Epicanthic fold? and isn't "oriental" kind of old-fashioned?
  • the Gothic ideal: something good to link to here?
Don't think so. Johnbod (talk) 03:38, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • and seems possessesed by an unusual elegance: "unusual" in what sense?
Reworded to make clearer. Ceoil (talk) 19:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
  • some art historians have described as unnerving.: such as?
  • virtually unprecedented in Italian portrait painting at that time: aren't we in the Low Countries?
Clarified Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • rarely found, if at all,: is there some question as to whether it's found at all?
Reworded Ceoil (talk) 09:00, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • the male chaperon hat, which always has a long tailing cornette, sometimes worn in this way: I was going to link to cornette, but the article says it's "a piece of female headwear". Do you know more about this?
Well yes, as I wrote chaperon. Not sure what the question is. The female wimple cornettes are different. Here the girl wears one of the male scarf-like sort, which is not that unusual on women too. Added a bit. Johnbod (talk) 03:38, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • almost white skin and almost sculpted bone structure: "almost ... almost"
Now "almost white skin and strong bone structure" Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • and even Robert Campin: this is jarring—we shouldn't assume the reader knows what Campin's advances were or what their relation to Christus' work might have been
Cut "even" Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • in favour of an elongation of form; emphasised by way the narrow, slight upper body and head are, according to art historian Robert Suckale, "heightened by the V-shaped neckline of the ermine and the cylindrical hat.": I'm having trouble parsing this. Something's wrong; I'm not sure what.
Rewritten (a "the" was missing for a start). Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • of the English Talbot family: which English Talbot family?
There is Baron Talbot, but the relevant ones are the 1st & 2nd Earls of Shrewsbury, both linked when mentioned just after. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Since it has just been introduced, though, wouldn't "an" be more appropriate? Otherwise it sounds like the article's namedropping a family we should be expected to know (like "the Medici"). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Redone Johnbod (talk) 21:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Archibald Russell establishes: maybe "has established"?
Changed to "established" Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Joel Upton supports Waagen's: maybe "Joel Upton's analysis supports" or somesuch? Otherwise the present tense seems weird.
Rewritten. There is another "analysis" just after. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • it commanded an unusually high price: is the price known?
Yes, but it's not much use by itself - I think it was 40 florins. Stapleton publishes and translates the whole thing, which known from a later copy. Maybe could do a note comparing it with other works priced up in the inventory, but this is fiddly. I think we are working from google preview, which gives the introductory essay but not the list itself. in UK anyway. In fact, with a Van Eyck, it was the most expensive of the 42 Netherlandish paintings recorded. See here; the top price was 100 florins for the Fra Angelico tondo now in Washington, but a small Fra Angelico was only valued at 5 florins. Rewritten a bit; the identity of the 1492 work with that in Berlin is not certain. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe best to shove it into a footnote? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • indicating that their interest: is "they" the Medici?
Yes, rewritten Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it's ok in a picture caption, but could go to "showing". Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • northern painter: should "northern" be capitalized here?
Usually not I think - like "N/northern Europe". Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • also identified the Saint Eligius panel: the Saint Eligius is also by Christus?
Yes, but... Now: "In this way, Waagan also identified Christus' so-called Saint Eligius panel, now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (and seen as just a portrait of a goldsmith)" Johnbod (talk) 14:35, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • a number of paintings had been attributed to Jan van Eyck: meaning paintings by Christus, or paintings in general?
Added "his", though until this date anything from northern Europe before about 1520 was liable to be attributed to Jan van Eyck (after that it was all Durer). Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • hence the confusion with the older painter who often signed his work with similar phraseology if signed with separate names, why would there be confusion?
  • I'll look after this. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Taking this out for the time being. The sources are a bit confusing as to why anyone thought this. Ceoil (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • hidden comment: lots of blanks to be filled in here; Sterling assumes familiarity with the literature: are there still lots of blanks to be filled in, or can this comment be removed?
  • Its removed now. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • as executed later: or "to have been"?
  • Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Frère, Jean Claude. Early Flemish painting. Terrail, 2007: no pages?

File check[edit]

Feel free to disagree with anything here, or any of my copyedits. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 01:36, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Support. I still think it's odd to have a disambig like (Christus, Berlin) (wouldn't just (Christus) or (Petrus Christus) be better?), but I woudln't hold this up over titling. It's a fine article. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Curley for your close reading and very detailed review :) I'm ok with moving to (Christus). Ceoil (talk) 07:59, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Check alphabetization of sources
  • One three-author work uses et al in short cites, while the other lists all three - be consistent
  • FN18: author name doesn't match that given in Sources
  • Missing bibliographic info for Sterling
  • Nash is a book and should have its title italicized
  • Upton: check location. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:36, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks Nikki; all resolved now. Ceoil (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Victoriaearle comment[edit]

  • I'd not ever read this article until tonight - very nice! And interesting to read that it's dated based on the style of the hennin. I've made a few very small tweaks; no prob to revert if not okay. One quibble is this sentence (and I might try to fix myself if I get the time): "The subject no longer sits against a flat, neutral background but is placed in an airy, three-dimensional and realistic setting" >> per the inline I left, sounds like she was sitting against a wall but now isn't. Also, is this Christus portrait the first to use such a convention? In other the words does "The subject" refer specifically to this girl or to Christus' innovations in general?
  • Support. Nicely done, as usual - a gem. Victoria (tk) 01:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Victoria, and well spotted. I've clarified that sentence now. Ceoil (talk) 17:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


Nominator(s): Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:20, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Ukiyo-e was the J-Pop boom of the 19th century. Of course, it was many other things before the West got around to "discovering" it, as you'll see when you read through this artistic genre's 200+ years of history. Thanks in advance to the image reviewer, as there are about sixty images to go through—and I'm wide open to suggestions for replacement or addition. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:20, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Don't need quote-initial or -terminal ellipses
  • FN42, 50, 70, 76, etc: page formatting - check usage of "p." vs "pp."
  • Tuttle Publishing or just Tuttle?
    • Actually, it appears it was Charles E. Tuttle Company until 1996. Fixed. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Be consistent in what is wikilinked when in references. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Comments by Johnbod
  • Generally excellent, and very welcome. I wish say Indian art had as many strong articles as Japanese. I've commented on it at various times over the years, and during Curly's epic expansion. A few cavils:
  • "the nativist Yamato-e tradition, which focused on Japanese themes painted in soft colours and contours" - the bit I've italicized raised the eyebrows. I don't think it's a very useful way to distinguish Yamato-e from Chinese styles, and often just not true. The colours of very old works have often faded, but that is a different matter. Soft colours and blurred contours are arguably just as characteristic of the Chinese styles, when they use colour at all.
    • Hmmm..."soft colours and contours" wasn't really meant as a contrast with the Chinese styles—rather simply as characteristics of the Yamato-e style—but I guess it comes across that way the way I wrote it. And I guess I failed completely in conveying the diversity of Chinese-inspired styles. Let me think of a rewording. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:56, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Do you think "Chinese-inspired ones of a variety of styles" is sufficient? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:54, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
        • That's ok, but I really can't see "soft colours and contours" as a useful characterizion of Yamato-e. It often shows selective colouring and views obscured by the mist or revealed by cut-away, but "soft" doesn't work for me. There are often strong colour highlights that Chinese artists would think inharmonious. Johnbod (talk) 00:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
          • I botched summarizing the source: "gorgeous coloring and softness of contour". Would "rich" or "lavish colours" and "soft contours" work? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 01:27, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
            • Makes more sense, though personally I'm still dubious about "soft contours". Just quote it? Johnbod (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
              • Reading around (such as here), it looks like both styles went through more evolution than can really be neatly summed up here. How about: "the nativist Yamato-e tradition, focusing on Japanese themes, best known by the works of the Tosa school; and Chinese-inspired kara-e in a variety of styles, such as the monochromatic ink wash painting of Sesshū Tōyō and his disciples"? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
                  • Fine with that. Johnbod (talk) 00:04, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Until the 16th century, the lives of the common people had not been subject to the painters, and even when they were included,..." and the picture caption "is one of the earliest Japanese paintings to feature the lives of the common people.". In the first the phrasing is odd - was it meant to be "the lives of the common people had not been a subject for painters" which is better, though "a main subject" would be better, as works like the 12th-century Shigisan-engi are famous precisely for showing "the lives of the common people", but serving a Buddhist narrative story. Compared to other major traditions, Japanese painting was rather strong on "the lives of the common people" well before this date, but not as a subject in itself. This distinction should be made.
  • "their improved lot allowed for leisure that many sought in the pleasure districts—in particular Yoshiwara" - needs locating in Edo, which will clarify it is a place not a person.
  • "Moronobu was the first of the book illustrators to achieve such prominence that, by 1672, he could sign his name to his work" - bit oddly phrased. Presumably he did so because it brought marketing advantage, but nothing was stopping any artist from doing so, I'd imagine.
    • I'll have to grab the book from the library, but I think it had something to do with Moronobu's superiors granting him the right to sign his work. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 12:25, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Ok, that would make sense in European terms under the guild system too. Maybe fill it out a bit to avoid the question. Johnbod (talk) 21:57, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Nope, I was wrong—it reads: "In 1672, with the publication of The Samurai Hundred-poem Collection (Buke hyakunin isshu), he became the first Edo illustrator to achieve such prominence as to be able to sign his own work." I've reworded. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:52, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Early ukiyo-e masters" mini-gallery is a mix of paintings & prints. Clarify which is which.
  • I rephrased re Sharaku's identity [8].
    • One thing about this: "artist who worked under the name" could be applied to pretty much every one of the artists, as using an art name was standard, and it was common for artists to change their art names—Hokusai used about a hundred different art names. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 11:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Yes, and it would be worth mentioning that before this point. Johnbod (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
  • More later. I can see my main issue is going to be one I think I've raised before - the paucity of information on the social and economic context for the buyers especially. How expensive were they? "prices affordable to prosperous townspeople" are mentioned, but that's pretty vague. How were they collected and displayed? Were they hung up on walls, or kept in albums, or both? Did enthusiasts have huge collections? Was there a critical literature while the tradition existed? Did other artists or critics look down on them? Was there a 2nd-hand trade? Were there collector's marks? Did you make a lot of money as an artist? Were the more erotic subjects regarded as suitable for public/mixed-gender display? Johnbod (talk) 11:35, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I've added a bit on this last one, and am hunting down some more. As for the "critical literature", that's a definite no—there was almost no literature at all, and what there was came late—the most significant being the Ukiyo-e Ruikō collection of artist histories, which first appeared in 1790 and was never printed under the modern era, copied by hand and modified extensively copy to copy. It has never be translated into English, but it gets mentioned here and there. I'll find a good source on it and add something. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 20:34, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I think I've dealt with the "critical literature", pricing, and acceptability of shunga issues. I'm still hunting down collecting habits and incomes; I've found a source that emphasizes the changing economic conditions throughout the era had an effect on the ways ukiyo-e were produced, but it's not very specific, so I'm going to keep hunting for more on that. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:49, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Thanks! I see what you mean. On a quick prowl through JSTOR there is a ton on early Western collectors, but little on Japanese ones. Can you see "Hokusai's Illustrations for the "100 Poems"", Roger Keyes and Hokusai, Art Institute of Chicago Museum Studies, Vol. 10, The Art Institute of Chicago Centennial Lectures (1983), pp. 310-329, Published by: The Art Institute of Chicago, Article DOI: 10.2307/4104343, Article Stable URL: First few pages cover the economic crisis of the 1830s which I've read about elsewhere, and probably deserves mention. Also: "The Prints of Isoda Koryūsai: Floating World Culture and Its Consumers in Eighteenth-Century Japan" by Allen Hockley, Review by: Christine M. E. Guth, Artibus Asiae, Vol. 64, No. 1 (2004), pp. 125-127, Published by: Artibus Asiae Publishers, Article Stable URL: - suggests that would be a good book on this. supposedly there is "a revolution in ukiyo-e studies" going on (or was in 2004), bringing this stuff more to the fore. Also: "The Commercial and Cultural Climate of Japanese Printmaking" by Amy Reigle Newland, Review by: Lawrence E. Marceau, Journal of Japanese Studies, Vol. 32, No. 2 (Summer, 2006), pp. 494-498, Published by: The Society for Japanese Studies, Article Stable URL: - conference papers. This suggests the key books then were Chibbett 1997 The history of Japanese printing and book illustration (Kodansha) and Hillier 1987 "The Art of the Japanese book" (Sotheby's). I can supply PDF's if needed. Johnbod (talk) 11:35, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I actually added Hockley's book just today. I don't currently have JSTOR access---I'd love to get any of those PDFs. There definitely seems to be a lot more activity in ukiyo-e scholarship in the last decade, but I haven't come across anything summing it up and contextualizing it. Most of it seems too domain-specific for the general ukiyo-e article (like, say, a book analyzing Harunobu's mitate-e that I was browsing through at the library the other day---and lots of stuff on shunga, shunga, shunga). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 13:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I do believe I've showed you WP:RX before, right? And yes, a TFA on shunga would be... interesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:53, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, and I've actually made quite a bit if use of it. The problem sometimes is not knowing there's something you need if you can't browse through the content. Hopefully I'll be one of those who's granted a JSTOR account so I can browse more freely. A shunga article would be something I could handle (a shelffull of sources at the library), but I do must of my editing where that would be awkward...
I've found an interesting book, but a couple of key pages are inaccessible. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 14:03, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
The more I read about pricing, the more I feel like I want to rip out what I've already added. I'm reading Ukiyo-e by Jun'ichi Ôkubo (2008) at the moment, and he has a short section that looks at prices. It appears that "typical" prices varied quite widely, and it doesn't appear the supposedly "typical" 20 mon of the early 19th centruy was really all that typical. The records are so scanty, it seems, that analyzing them seems to be as much speculation as anything. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
@Johnbod: I think I've dealt with most of your concerns in one way or another. I guess the biggest gap is in how they were collected, and how much artists made. For incomes, I've come across a few tidbits about Hokusai (always broke), Hiroshige (always struggled, but made more than he would've as a firefighter), and Kunichika (apparently made 100 sen for a particular triptych in the 1870s), but I'm turning up blanks for anything general enough to work into the article ... Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I just ran across a book—Ukiyo-e Shuppan-ron by Ôkubo Jun'ichi—that deals with the production and comerical aspects of ukiyo-e, and it was published in 2013. It looks like it spends a lot of time examing in detail what little hard evidence there is, and still looks like it doesn't have hard answers to a lot of these questions, but I've found a couple of things in it that could be used to refine what's in the article. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:52, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for acting promptly. I won't be able to work through these, and check the rest of the article, until the w/e I'm afraid. Johnbod (talk) 23:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

More from Johnbod

  • "such printing was reserved for Buddhist seals and images..." seals? maybe. But also texts and prayers, no?
    • I'm not sure. The wording doesn't seem to exclude them, but it doesn't mention them either. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • " The landscape genre has come to define ukiyo-e for Western audiences,..." a bit overstated imo. The most famous single series are landscapes, but portraits are well enough known too, I'd have thought.
    • Maybe "define" is too strong, but it is true that many can name no more than Hokusai and Hiroshige. I read an Amazon review recently of someone who gave a one-star review to a book on ukiyo-e history because he was disappointed that the landscapes were relegated to the back of the book (!). Even amongst the foreigners I run into in Japan, it's common for them to define "ukiyo-e" as "Japanese landscape prints"---this is despite the porminent Sharakus that constantly confront them on billboards---many of them aren't aware the Shakarus are also ukiyo-e. I have to admit, once upon a time I was one of those people ... do you think "The landscape genre has come to dominate Western perspecitves of ukiyo-e" is still too strong? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
No, that would be fair to say. Johnbod (talk) 00:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm interested in the development of the (very un-Chinese I think) "large-headed" close-up approach to portaiture, its similarities to Western portraits in terms of pure scale, but its difference in terms of the strong gender contrast: highly expressive, contorted male faces, but female faces with any expression having to be read into an essentially blank composure, and women often seen from behind. Anything in the sources?
    • It sure sounds like something that would have been written about, but Google's not being my friend today ... I'll keep looking. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 21:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Style section should mention the continuation of yamato-e traditions of composition and viewpoints - non-centralized compositions, oblique, high, views of the scene, elements cut-off by the frame, things seen in secondary spaces at the back of the composition, that sort of thing. That was a large part of what excited the West.
    • Do you have anything on this? Really it's the only point delaying a support, but I think it should be in. Johnbod (talk) 15:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Sorry I've been so quiet. I actually have been busy hunting some of these things down, and I have added [9], but I've been having trouble finding a source on the first bit. I can find sources that say they're features of Yamato-e, and I can find sources saying that ukiyo-e inherited a lot from Yamato-e, but I can't find a source that says explicitly that those specific aspects were inherited from Yamato-e. It would technically be WP:SYNTHESIS if the sources didn't back it up. You wouldn't happen to know such a source, would you? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
        • No, I'm afraid not. Paine, Robert Treat, in: Paine, R. T. & Soper A, "The Art and Architecture of Japan", Pelican History of Art, 3rd ed 1981, Penguin (now Yale History of Art), ISBN 0140561080 mentions the interest in everyday life as connecting Yamato-e and Ukiyo-e, but not these stylistic points. Ok, let's draw a line.
  • "the woodcarvers, who prepared the woodblocks for printing.... " You might mention/link to Formschneider, the Western equivalent.
  • Caption: "A colour print of a group of well-dressed Japanese women making prints|A mid-19th-century print by Kunisada depicting the woodblock printing process. An ..." "alt" lost?

That's it - thanks for the work since the first part of the review. Johnbod (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Support Comments dealt with. a fine piece of work. Johnbod (talk) 01:19, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks! If you ever do happen to come across something, please drop me a note. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 02:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Excellent work...Modernist (talk) 00:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment - you might add Les Nabis as another group of Post Impressionists influenced by Ukiyo-e; although you do mention Bonnard and Vuillard...Modernist (talk) 00:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I've reworded it to mention they were members of the group. Thanks! Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 01:19, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review[edit]

  • File:Toshusai_Sharaku-_Otani_Oniji,_1794.jpg: source link does not appear to be working
    • Fixed. The museum has removed the ".htm" from all their URLs. I imagine this will have broken a lot of links. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 02:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • File:Moronobu_b-w_shunga.jpg needs US PD tag. Same with File:KIYONOBU-Yamanaka-Ichikawa-1714.jpg, File:ToyokuniActor.jpg, File:Yamamoto_1904.jpg, File:Kawase_Zôjôji.jpg, File:'Lyric_No._23'_by_Onchi_Koshiro,_Honolulu_Museum_of_Art.JPG, File:Suzuki_Harunobu_-_Woman_Visiting_the_Shrine_in_the_Night_-_Google_Art_Project_crop.jpg, File:Ernest_Fenollosa.jpg
  • File:Kaigetsudo_Bijin-attendant-1710.jpg: more specific source?
  • File:Nishikawa_Sukenobu,_1739,_Ehon_Asakayama,16_gris.jpg: description is correct but the rest of the information template is incorrect. Same with File:Couple_in_a_Snowstorm,_Suzuki_Harunobu,_c._1768_-_Hood_Museum_of_Art_-_DSC09257.JPG (here licensing tag is incorrect also)
  • File:Kunisada_futamigaura.jpg: what is the original source?
  • File:Ukiyo-e_dsc04680.jpg: does the uploader hold copyright to the carving too, or just the photo? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Subway Sadie[edit]

Nominator(s): Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 23:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

This article is about a lost film from 1926 about a subway guard and a fur salesgirl. I've exhausted all usable sources to create a comprehensive article and the prose has been buffed up since the GA nomination passed. It's not the longest article, but I think it meets the criteria regardless. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 23:40, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Image review (complete)
  • File:Subway Sadie poster.jpg - I'd say there's a 99% chance that this is PD (most studios didn't start regularly putting copyright notices on their posters until the 1930s). Do you have access to a higher resolution scan for us to check?
  • Here's a slightly higher one. All text seems legible, doesn't look like there's a copyright notice. I'm not a copyright wizard; would this make it PD?
  • The copyright text is usually very small, so I would say not yet. We'd have to hunt down if there were any renewals 28 years after publication. My internet is fritzing out on me, so I can't check it right now. We hope is usually pretty good with this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Crisco 1492 and Taylor Trescott--didn't find a larger one. Sadie was renewed; I agree that the poster probably has no copyright marks on it, but how about a compromise--changing this for a nice, big lobby card with no copyright marks? If you guys give me a few minutes, I think I can also get some more photos of the folks in the film and a photo of a theater marquee showing the film through Lantern. We hope (talk) 03:14, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The lobby card looks free. We should be using that then. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Give me a minute to get it to Commons.:) We hope (talk) 03:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Great. I'm uploading a higher resolution of the MacKaill image. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

OK--File:Subway Sadie lobby card 1926.jpg here it is. Did either of you see these photos in Motion Picture News for 1926? We hope (talk) 03:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

  • No, I've been limiting myself to images used in the article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Fixed.
  • Here is an alternate one. I reuploaded it using this source because the blue tint was unsightly and it was a larger resolution.
  • Better, but this has a copyright tag (title page). Was this renewed? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:30, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

OK-Stars of the Photoplay was not renewed. I checked books and periodicals for 1951 and 1952. The only renewals for Photoplay were in 1951-for a couple of stories in back issues. We hope (talk) 03:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Thanks. That means we're nice and safe. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • File:Subway Sadie promo still.png - Why, exactly, is this PD? Was there no copyright notice on the back? How can you confirm that when the back wasn't included in the ebay ad? Yes, most promotional stills were not copyrighted, but Wikipedia has required actual proof (i.e. the backs) for several years now. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Swapped out for a new still which I can confirm is PD.
  • File:Subway Sadie film still Picture-Play.png needs categories, and the date should be fixed (speaking of that, make sure all of the dates are the correct ones for your other files). For display on Wikipedia, a jpg format is best (the software sharpens the thumbnails, making them clearer), but I can do that myself if you are pressed for time. But a bigger problem: there is a clear copyright notice on the bottom of the table of contents (here). Do you have proof this wasn't renewed? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:24, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for doing this Crisco. I'm a bit hurried for time, but I think I addressed these properly. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 01:34, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Prose comments
Al Rockett - Per WP:REDLINK, biographies should generally not be redlinked
Couldn't find a redlink for Rockett. There was one for Hugh Bennett and I took it out. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 14:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Bernard Randall portraying Brown - who's Brown?
IDK. The sources with a plot don't give the names of any of the other characters. Want me to nuke it? Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 14:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
running for 70 minutes. - at how many FPS? If I remember correctly, silent films could be shown at several speeds. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:23, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
With 35mm film, 1 minute is usually projected with 90 feet being one minute. Changed to "around 70 minutes". Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 14:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Support on prose and images. Good work on another lost film article! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN8: title formatting, page number?
  • FN2, 20: article title? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:25, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Done. Thank you for the help. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 15:55, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment: For such a short article, the prose had several grammar mistakes and redundant phrases. I'd like to run through and copyedit the article tomorrow, and perhaps leave some nitpicks for you to fix on your own. ceranthor 15:07, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. It is appreciated. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 17:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Ceranthor:

  • The silent film began production shortly after May 1926. - Why "after May"? Does that just mean June?
You are right. I originally did not have the source that specified it started May 3. Changed.
  • I noticed you forgot to mention a fact mentioned here, that after Sadie decides to marry him, "Herb reveals that his father is president of the subway company".
Image captions
  • A scene from the film, featuring Mulhall and Mackaill. Their successful pairing in Subway Sadie led to them appearing in many further films. - I think several other films would be better than "many further", unless there are other films not listed in the article.
Release and reception
  • The Morning Telegraph' review - Unfamiliar with this punctuation... could you explain?
It's just a mistake. Fixed
  • The Morning Telegraph' review said that Subway Sadie would "delight the majority of straphangers" and that "it is what the boys call excellent box-office". - this sentence needs a citation?
  • The New York American review was similarly positive, describing it as "a light but charming comedy". - Citation?
Those two are both cited to ref #20
  • In June 1927, a Southeast Missourian journalist wrote that the film had since become "very successful".[23] - Any explanation of what this vague statement means?
It's supposed to imply the film was considered a success after its release. I could take it out it you want.
Since the source is so vague, it seems fine as is. Don't worry about it.

In general, it's fairly well-written, but there's a lot of passive voice. ceranthor 21:38, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and copyedits. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 22:35, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi Taylor. I've made a list of most of the sentences with passive voice here. For such a short article, I feel like we can collaborate to get rid of some of the passive voice in this article. Feel free to run your ideas by me, and I'll run through the article and try to help, too. ceranthor 21:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
@Ceranthor: I took a stab at eliminating some of the passive voice. How'd I do? Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 14:36, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm satisfied! :) ceranthor 18:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Support - Prose now looks good, and references seem to check out. ceranthor 18:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again for your help! Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 18:50, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Comments - reading through now. Will jot queries below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
It is a silent film shot in black-and-white - this line sorta just sits there and doesn't segue onto the previous...but I can't think of an alternative place to put it. sentence is a bit short and abrupt.

The rest of it reads fine - it appears comprehensive...will read again and muse on this line..otherwise on track for passing. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I merged that line with the Edeson one. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 12:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Aah, well done. I was staring at it for a bit and unsure, but that works fine...ergo, support Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 23:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Briarcliff Manor, New York[edit]

Nominator(s): ɱ (talk) 21:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Briarcliff Manor is a small village in the New York suburbs. It has plenty of interesting history and quite a few notable residents. The village also has a number of parks and historic buildings.

After I saw this article a few months back, I realized that it needed quite a bit of work. I created a user sandbox page and wrote a draft, which was peer reviewed by three users. I later published the article on the mainspace and submitted it as a Good Article candidate, which it passed. I'd hope you can help make the article even better - I believe there's always room for improvement. --ɱ (talk) 21:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Image review

  • What is BMFD?
  • Why are you limiting many images to such a small size?
  • File:BriarcliffTrophy.tif, File:WalterWLaw1910.jpg: when/where were these first published?
  • File:BriarcliffManorPolice.jpg, File:HillsideBriarcliff.jpg: is there a more specific licensing tag?
  • File:SaturdayNightLiveBriarcliff.png needs a stronger FUR
  • File:BriarcliffSealOld.png: page? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments, you raise all good points. I talk about the BMFD earlier, so I didn't think it needed to be linked or explained. Many of the images are small to not mis-align section headings, although some could be bigger. The Briarcliff Trophy and Walter Law images date to 1908 and 1910. The trophy picture was in a Briarcliff Outlook publication; I'll try to find the exact one. The Law photo was dated to 1910 and I know it's in a 1939 publication, and probably is in earlier ones. I'll look for it. The SNL image I think qualifies well for identification and critical commentary, how would you change its rationale? The seal was vectorized from a scan of an introductory page (not numbered) of Briarcliff's 1977 history. I'll detail that. Again, thanks.--ɱ (talk) 16:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I linked the BMFD and made one image bigger. Most images are at the default size, all others are either a bit smaller to (as mentioned above) not hit into the next section, or because they're portrait instead of landscape. The Law photo in addition to the Police and Hillside images I scanned directly from the originals, located at the Briarcliff Manor-Scarborough Historical Society (BMSHS). The BMSHS only found a permanent home three years ago, and therefore any images people have donated to them are without records as to date taken/photographer/any usage in publications. So I cannot have a more specific license or information.--ɱ (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
You should adjust the size of portrait images using the "upright" parameter, as described at WP:IMGSIZE. For the SNL image, the current listed "purpose of use" is "The image shows a scene of Saturday Night Live filmed in Briarcliff Manor" - this is a description of what the image actually is, not an explanation of why it is needed in the article or how it aids understanding. It is also missing an explicit identification of the copyright holder. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:57, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I substituted the 'upright' bit for all the portrait images, except for the ones in the 'notable people' section because it looks too prominent and people might think it gives undue weight to them. I also changed the FUR for the SNL image. Is that up to par?--ɱ (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: I updated the File:BriarcliffTrophy.tif, and I changed the license on File:WalterWLaw1910.jpg. Does this all suffice?--ɱ (talk) 00:23, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Crisco, care to weigh in? I'm still not sure the image is needed to "to illustrate that Briarcliff Manor was the setting for this comedy skit".
By the way, image issues aside, I would encourage you to check your reference formatting before someone comes through to do a source review - I spotted several inconsistencies on only a quick glance. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll check it over again now. Could've sworn I got everything, but with this many refs it's hard to be sure... Also, the fact that this small village was in the very first episode of SNL is something that many people doubted until I showed them a clip of the episode; that's why I thought it was important to have the image: verification and illustration of that.--ɱ (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: I fixed some references; please tell me if there's anything else that stands out. Also, you should perhaps fix the link to Crisco1492's page, you forgot to add the "User:" bit. Thanks for your comments so far.--ɱ (talk) 20:38, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Argh, you're right, thanks. I don't intend to do a full source review right at this moment, but a few quick points: book refs almost always need page numbers, unless you're actually citing the whole book, and some of them are missing; ditto periodicals without weblinks. More broadly, similar types of sources should generally look the same: for example, we see that the newspaper in FN19 includes a publisher while the newspaper in FN61 doesn't, so pick one option and apply it consistently. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

() Okay. Book numbers are often problematic with history and place articles because sources may have information on introductory pages that aren't numbered, and ebook page numbers often don't match up with print ones. As well, a few books I used are so short that they don't have page numbers. Some books, like The Changing Landscape I cite so many times that it would be best for one to just use the book's TOC or index, rather than making this long article longer with a 'notes' section for individual pages, which would be mostly for this one book anyway. And some paragraphs, like that on 'higher education', I wrote entirely using that book as a source, although I may have used four or five different pages. It's neater and easier to just cite the book for that paragraph than have each portion cited, even though it's all from the same source. For those reasons, I think it's really best to just leave it as the status quo.

With regard to periodicals without weblinks - many are print articles that haven't yet been digitized. The village historical society has archives of news articles that aren't on the Web but still easily count as verifiable. With regard to consistency, I tried to be consistent with formatting and dates, but when it comes to the amount of information, it just varies too much. Some sources have no date, some have no URL, some have no publisher, some have no author, etc.--ɱ (talk) 23:15, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Update: I added page numbers for the largest source of this article, the above-mentioned Changing Landscape. My copies of the 1939 and 1952 histories have no page numbers, although the BMSHS ones might; I'll look into that, as well as finding if the 1977 history has them.--ɱ (talk) 14:04, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Another update - I found that the 1939 history has no pagination. The 1952 and 1977 ones do, and I added the page numbers of the 1977 book, and I'll do the same for the 1952 book shortly.--ɱ (talk) 00:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear it. I'm a bit uneasy about this source - is it possible to replace it? Also, since Lulu is a self-publishing company, what makes that book a reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Nikkimaria: Well, reliable sources also depend on what is being cited. If it's something controversial, you want the top authority on the matter; while if it's a basic fact, you can use a wider variety of sources. I use the lawyer site to reference that the village is "just northwest of central Westchester County". That likely doesn't need a source, but since I wrote this article with everything being attributed to sources, I felt a need to find one. The lawyer site is the only one that specifically mentions Briarcliff's geographic location withing the county, so there it is. If you'd rather we remove it and call it basic knowledge not needing a citation, that's okay.
The book published by Lulu was written by Patricia Baldwin Andrews and her grandson Robert P. Oehrig. Andrews is the granddaughter of William Woodward Baldwin, the subject of the publication. And the two authors wrote the book as a compilation of Baldwin's diaries, writings and photos. In fact, the two things that I cite with that reference were taken from Baldwin's writings himself (dating to the first decade of the 20th century), not those of Andrews of Oehrig, just reprinted in their publication. I'd say all of that justifies the information I cite to it- information about Baldwin himself, and about the first car, which Baldwin wrote about, and wrote about driving in it.--ɱ (talk) 17:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll also note that I finished adding page numbers for Our Village: Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. 1902 to 1952, The Changing Landscape: A History of Briarcliff Manor-Scarborough, and A Village Between Two Rivers: Briarcliff Manor. All other sources are internet ones, ones that I already listed page numbers for within the reference, or publications sans pagination.--ɱ (talk) 00:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

1987 Giro d'Italia[edit]

Nominator(s): Disc Wheel (Talk + Tontributions) 20:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I've put in some considerable labor into the article to bring it from what it was ([10]). I recently got the 1988 Giro d'Italia promoted to FA status and have made the changes and additions requested to that article to this one (expanded the route and stages sections, added an aftermath section, and a little more on pre race favorites). I also did a copy edit of the race overview, which I believe got most of the prose errors out of the way. I will respond back to any comments very quickly. Thanks!

Also, I have perused the internet databases in search of information on doping controls and cases at the 1987 giro and have not found anything; so that is why there is nothing about doping in the article. I haven't found a source that claims there weren't doping cases either...

Image review

  • File:Sanremo Casino.jpg - all OK
  • File:Terminillo.JPG - all OK
  • File:Moreno Argentin.jpg - Flickr, reviewed - looks OK
  • File:San Marino 010.jpg - all OK
  • File:Robert MILLAR (cropped).jpg - all OK
  • File:Passo Pordoi 2007.jpg - all OK
  • File:1987 Stephen Roche Giro TT.jpg - Flickr, reviewed - looks OK

Images sound. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Canis Major[edit]

Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Trying to work up bigger constellations without the prose coming across as too listy - this article came together quite well I thought. Home of the brightest star in the sky and a bunch of interesting things. Have a read, tell me what I can fix and enjoy (hopefully) Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Cambalachero[edit]

First, the image review. File:Canis Major IAU.svg comes from a site with an appropiate license, but it still contains a pair of logos at the bottom right. Their copyright section clearly said that their logo is not freely licensed, and so it must be removed from the image (watermarks are usually removed anyway). Besides, it may be better if the "source" was not just a raw link that simply reads "[1]". File:CMa setting.jpg has a "summary" section that repeats the content of the description, remove it. And what about removing the lower portion of the photo, so that we see just the sky and not the portion of the plane's window? (there's also the plane wing, but I don't think we can do anything about that). File:Sidney Hall - Urania's Mirror - Canis Major, Lepus, Columba Noachi & Cela Sculptoris.jpg is a featured image, and I don't see any problem with it. File:CanisMajorCC.jpg comes from a site with a copyright notice, but the author uses the same name both there and in Commons. Perhaps you should send a mail to the author (in his page) to ask him to confirm that the user in Commons is also him, and that he's aware that he's re-licensing the photos by uploading them here. File:Stars fleeing a cosmic crash.jpg seems fine --Cambalachero (talk) 20:25, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Removed duplicate material. I would think leaving some reference point is good, depends what one sees as the interesting part of the image. If you crop it so it is just sky, then it is just a blurry picture of the constellation. Actually the more i think about it, it really doesn't add to the article except in an amusing and possibly noncyclopedic manner, so I will remove it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:00, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Would the logo not be part of attribution? This is the copyright notice on the original site, and this is (presumably) the version they are happy with being reproduced, given it is on the website....all 88 constellations have this image.....will redo the source source rewritten. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:51, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Casliber. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Support and comments from Jim Usual high quality, Cas, just a couple of minor points you might take a look at Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • KAK.SI.DI, BAN, MULAPIN— Why are the Babylonian words fully capped? I can hardly bring myself to write this, but is it consistent with MoS for capitalisation?
it's consensus on how the words are transcribed from Babylonian. We discussed this somewhere before - can't recall where. Will have a look later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Alternate names— too American for my tastes, "alternative" is meant, the names don't alternate
changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • beat him up—too informal, even for Oz
changed to "assaulted" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • polygon of 4 sides. — spell out "four", or better still replace the phrase with the equivalent but more concise "quadrilateral". As written, it's like using "polygon of three sides" in preference to "triangle"
changed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Cwmhiraeth[edit]

It reads well, but really I am too unfamiliar with the astronomical depth of the article to be able to comment properly. A few points on the prose:

thanks for the input - making it as accessible as possible to lay-readers is good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:00, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "In non-western astronomy" - Are Arab astronomers and Tunisian shepherds considered to be "western"?
in a very broad sense, this is part of the classical/western lore yes Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "The Wild Cockerel (Yějī 野雞) was at the centre of the Military Market and its stars were uncertain." - needs some clarification of what the second part means.
have tried to clarify. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Southeast of the Wolf was the asterism Húshǐ (弧矢), the celestial Bow and Arrow, ..." - This sentence is too long and complex.
split now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "To the Boorong people of Victoria, Sigma Canis Majoris was Unurgunite, and its flanking stars Delta and Epsilon his two wives." - I would add "were" to the last part of this.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • You mention that Lepus is "the hare" but not that Columba is "the dove".
tricky this - as Columba only mentioned in map/boundaries but, not mythology - would seem odd to mention it there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Sirius is also a binary star; its companion is called Sirius B, which has a magnitude of 8.4" - What is the magnitude of Sirius A then? Perhaps that's a silly question but this paragraph describes Sirius as a star and then states it is in fact two stars.
Sirius B is 10,000 times fainter, the -1.46 magnitude at the beginning is the magnitude of Sirius A to all intents and purposes. I have added the bit to make it clearer Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:48, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "... is another star that has been classified Beta Cephei variable, ..." - I would insert "as a" in this sentence.
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:33, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "... is now undergoing nuclear fusion of helium to generate energy." - The use of the active rather than the passive tense here makes it sounds as if the star has a purpose!
removed as redundant anyway... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:53, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "At the other extreme is ..." - At the other extreme from What?
in size - preceding segment is about one of the largest stars then talk about one 5 km in diameter. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "However the fainter star is the more massive at 19 Solar masses ..." - "Solar mass" is lowercase elsewhere in the article.
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "... yellow and orange stars and covers an area the size of the full Moon ..." - Perhaps use the word "apparent size".
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "On the other hand, a globular cluster in Puppis, NGC 2298 ..... and instead be of extragalactic origin." - The verb form is wrong at the end of this sentence. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I am happy with the alterations you have made and now support on the grounds of prose and comprehensiveness. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
thanks for the look-over and suggestions. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Victoriaearle[edit]

Hi, Cas - almost total layperson here, without a bit of knowledge! It'll take me a while to read through (frankly haven't a clue what I'm reading) but a couple of questions:

input from laypeople is essential to make the damn thing as readable as possible :) - your copyedits were fine, just had to revert to "3 Canis Majoris", which is a Flamsteed designation. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "History and mythology" (which is an interesting read) is followed by "In non-western astronomy". I'd think the second section is also history & mythology? I came away unsure whether the Chinese, Maori and Tharumba still believe these myths and thought you might want to consider retitling the sections along the lines of "History & Mythology" with subsections for western and non-western.
not sure how that happened - was supposed to be a level under "History & Mythology" - tweaked now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Stars" - Section is a lot of gray space and is very stuffed. Maybe move the pic down to break it up? mean up? we talking about the nonwestern segment...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Oops - sorry, ran out of steam, changed my mind about something and deleted a point. I meant the "Stars" section. I'm skimmed it, but need to read it through more closely. Victoria (tk) 20:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
aaah ok. I am looking for some more images but tricky Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry that's as far as I've gotten, but interesting reading. In my part of the world I know it as the winter dog star. Pls ping to remind me if I don't get back to this soon. Oh and made a few tweaks - feel free to revert. Victoria (tk) 01:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

  • I think I'll bring back the comment I deleted last night: in the "Stars" section, for the lay-reader, might be better to move from general to specific. 2nd para seems to be a readable general para; maybe lead the section with that para? That gives the reader a chance to dip in, or out, in the specific description of each star coming after.
Ok, I have flipped the first two paras and agree the new first para is a much easier only concern is does it feel like the subject matter is jumping back and forth at all (Sirius to naming to Sirius...?) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:59, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep, agree and the reason I've been waffling about that point. But I think it reads well as the first para and I think it's probably okay with the rationale that readers generally don't read from top to bottom but dip in here and there. In that sense it sets up the next section fairly well, imo. Still, it is a bit tricky. Victoria (tk) 15:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm having trouble discerning the pattern in presentation of the 20 stars (i.e, brightest stars, biggest stars, location, alphabetical by name/label). Stupid question, but is there a convention in astronomy, or does it matter how they're presented? If it doesn't matter, to pull the lay-reader through, might not be a bad idea to set up topic sentences and clump together stars that share characteristics, or alternatively present them in as they're positioned on the dog (which is there in a few instances). Please ignore this, if not feasible or if uninformed.
no no, it's a valid question - this is really tricky and can differ from article to article depending on the source material. General principle is to move from brightest stars onwards, but it is hard to avoid listiness, so will try to groups stars with similar facts together (double stars, variable stars etc.) - and then fainter stars (generally only visible thru telescopes) that are often quite unusual toward the end, as well as grouping stars with planets. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I've read through again and decided it's not all that important of a point. Prosifying material that's sometimes better presented in lists is really challenging and I'm seriously impressed at the amount of information stuffed into the section. Victoria (tk) 15:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • 5th para: this sentence > "Its traditional name means "the virgins" >> seems to refer to Epsilon Canis Majoris (Adhara), but the first sentence in the para says "Epsilon, Omicron2, Delta and Eta Canis Majoris were called Al Adzari "the virgins" ". That's a little confusing.
the collective name ended up as the traditional name for the brightest star. Will see if I can find a ref for the change. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah, ok, that makes sense. If the sources allow, maybe something like "Epsilon, Omicron2, Delta and Eta Canis Majoris were called Al Adzari "the virgins" in medieval Arabic tradition – a term now used for Eta Canis Majoris only." Something like that? Not a big deal, really, to be honest. Victoria (tk) 15:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
added a note now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • What's a "B2Iab"? (totally lost me there!)
It is a blue white supergiant of spectral type Iab...have already linked to spectral type once; supergiant star now linked at first instance Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for the explanation. Victoria (tk) 15:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Stars" section describes individual stars and star systems. Can these be broken out into two separate sections for readability or do they need to be together? Again, haven't a clue, so ignore if uninformed. Victoria (tk) 00:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
We talk of stars as single points, but half are binary star systems (any multiple star is a star system), and then you have stars with planets. Trying to be as accurate as possible but keep it readable. This is one for following links. Not quite sure how to make it clearer - but they sorta need to be together... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:56, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
On a second read, I think it's okay as is. I was just trying to think of ways of breaking the section up into subjections for lay readers, but that would have its own pitfalls.
  • I've read to the bottom now and no questions/comments about "Deep-sky objects"
  • Support - nicely written, tons of information (comprehensive!), and I came away learning a lot! Victoria (tk) 15:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
much appreciated/thanks for helping me make it more accessible to layfolks... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Development of Grand Theft Auto V[edit]

Nominator(s): CR4ZE (tc) 07:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The development of Grand Theft Auto V was one of gaming's biggest undertakings. Developer Rockstar North are based in Edinburgh, but they've always done American cities justice. Making GTA V's open world required visits to California, with photo and video footage documenting the journey. An entire score was written. All of the main parts were mo-capped. This article covers all bases, thanks to the developer's many interviews with journalists. I feel it's written well enough to be up to scratch with other featured articles. CR4ZE (tc) 07:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from URDNEXT[edit]

  • Support! I love Grand Theft Auto and I was wow'd by how well it's written. It has more info then any other website on the subject. URDNEXT (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from XXSNUGGUMSXX[edit]

  • I will be leaving comments here within the next week or two. Sound good? Snuggums (talkcontributions) 15:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Can't wait. You were a big help with the main article's FAC, too. CR4ZE (tc) 23:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • It was my pleasure helping you get GTA V itself to FA :). Now for the commentary on this.....
  • Give a time range in the lead for when the development began
  • "published by Rockstar Games"..... released
  • "its release was widely anticipated"..... something about this just doesn't feel right. I'm not doubting its factual accuracy, but it seems either misplaced or poorly phrased.
  • "sources allegedly close to the developer"..... how about giving the names of these "sources"?
  • "first acknowledged the existence of"..... maybe first confirmed would be better
  • "did not meet its original projected release date"..... here you should include what date this was scheduled for
  • "Early in Grand Theft Auto V's development" → "Early in the game's development"
  • Per WP:OVERCITE, a ref should not be used more than once in a row per paragraph (i.e. don't use ref#90 more than once in a paragraph without uses of other refs in between the uses of ref#90)
  • Metro is not a reliable source
  • When using multiple articles from a common source (i.e. multiple IGN refs), only link the work in the first ref used from the common source
  • "Buzzfeed" is not a reliable source
  • The Hollywood Reporter should be italicized
  • Per MOS:QUOTEMARKS, ′ should be ' (check the refs for this)
  • Do not use stylizations
There's my 2¢. Snuggums (talkcontributions) 06:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I think I've taken care of everything above. Some feedback—the development timeframe is murky territory. I'm seeing sources that say four years (putting it at 2009-13), but others say immediately following GTA IV (2008-13). BuzzFeed are direct interviews with key people involved in the game, and the facts being cited are coming out of their mouths, not the journalists'. Hollywood Reporter was, but it was using the wrong field. Couldn't pick up quote mark violations, can you point them out? Stylisations pertaining to what? Cheers, keep the comments coming. CR4ZE (tc) 12:25, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the delay. I've taken another look through the article and it seems to all have been taken care of. I was referring to different capitalizations in terms of stylizations, but now can't see it. I'll take your word for the Buzzfeed links and ambiguous starting time, though would ideally link to a different site. In any case, I now officially support! Outstanding work. Snuggums (talkcontributions) 14:57, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Nick-D[edit]

Not sure if I'll post a full review, but I do have a few comments:

  • Given that it's been recently announced that this game is being ported to PCs, is this nomination premature?
  • The article appears to have been written entirely from the perspective of the game's developers (complete with lots of quotes from them). Surely industry experts, reviewers and critics also have perspectives which should be included (eg, was the development process unusually smooth or difficult? Why are all the three playable characters male?, etc)
  • Watch out for peacock prose and corporate jargon. From skimming the article I spotted stuff like "Grand Theft Auto V was envisioned to exceed the core mechanics of the Grand Theft Auto series", "The three interwoven stories had a positive critical reception and confirmed the team's confidence that building Grand Theft Auto V around this model was an innovative decision" and "co-opted a number of other studios owned by parent company Rockstar Games to facilitate development"
  • "Rockstar North, the core 360-person team behind the game" - exactly 360 people all the way through the development of the game? Nick-D (talk) 07:39, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
  • The recently-announced port is covered in the main article, and main development (as covered in this article) has been complete since 17 September 2013. There could be merit in having something on the port here but there's no real development information out there yet.
  • Third-party sources can't give as much insight into a game's development because they aren't in any way involved with it. They can comment on the game's development, like estimating the development budget and time, both of which are covered. I don't see any scope issues, because I haven't seen any solid development information come out written from an objective third-party.
  • I don't think the examples you cite are peacock, but they're on the border of jargon, yes. Is there more throughout? I'll likely run through a self-copy-edit and have your point in my mind.
  • The source unambiguously says 360. If it was 360 all the way through or not is irrelevant because that's what the source says, and going beyond that would be WP:OR. CR4ZE (tc) 12:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Nergaal[edit]

  • the article does not clearly give a framework for when the development started. It just says after GTA4, but when was that without clicking on links?
    • Actually it does that but only very late in the article
  • I would find it interesting for the intro to estimate the number of people involved in creating the game
  • aren't there pics of people involved in creating the game?
  • potential power of both consoles => ????
  • the first section quote needs quotation marks
  • the collapsed table needs a title
  • I think promotion and delay and leaks should be moved at the end of the article
  • Grand Theft Auto V was developed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.=> but was released on other platforms too
  • Is the name Los Santos just random, or was it chosen for a specific reason?
  • shouldn't be there some form of concluding section like criticism or acclaim?

Nergaal (talk) 13:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, Nergaal!
  • This has been mentioned above; sources are saying different things about the exact development time frame. We'll look into it.
I meant say that you should have: "GTA5 started being developed right after GTA 4 was released in 20xx"
  • We can't really estimate how many people were involved in creating the game; we must rely on references.
Article says somewhere that over 1000 people were involved in programming? Say in the intro something along the lines "over 1000 ppl were involved in the programming alone"
  • Pictures of the development team definitely exist. I'll look into adding some, if you wish.
  • I'm unsure as to what you're confused about; "potential power of both consoles" seems like a fairly straightforward sentence. Please elaborate.
"potential power of both consoles" is in the text. which 2 consoles? gen 7 or 8? wii or not?
  • Added quotation marks.
  • Added title.
  • Promotion" and "Delay and leak" are both related to the Business part of development, which is why they are at the top.
What i meant is sthe article should start with a background, then with the actual development, then with the promotion. I don't see the point in splitting the article into 2 sections when you can have 3 chronological ones. isn't this article about the chronology part of the series?
  • That statement remains true; the game was developed for the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. When it is released for other platforms (or when development information of such is released), then more information shall definitely be added to the article.
What I meant is that the article needs to clarify that the game went beyond the 2 consoles
  • I'm not sure where the name "Los Santos" came from; it's been used since Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (2004), so it's unlikely that you'll be able to find the source of origin.
give it a shot
  • The Reception of the game can be found at the main article. This article is about the development only, so there's no need for critical response here.
-- Rhain1999 (talk to me) 11:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I'll try and track some free shots of the developers/key people. If not, are you cool with non-free? On the article's structure, I wrote this using Development of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, whose layout I like. I'm open to deviating from that. I doubt there's anything on the origins of Los Santos's name, because I've read possibly every interview and feature and found nothing. If there was, it'd probably be something from a GTA San Andreas interview back in 2003, and using that would broach WP:SYNTH imo. CR4ZE (tc) 14:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tezero[edit]

CR4ZE, do you need more comments? If so, I can look the article over and give some. Tezero (talk) 08:13, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Tezero, sorry didn't see this. I'd love to get some comments from you if available. Cheers, CR4ZE (tc) 03:22, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. I remember passing this for GAN, and now, after a few minor wording and grammar (yes, I know it's UK English) changes, which you can revert if you'd like (please look at all of them first, though), I'm confident in giving this my approval. Well done. Tezero (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Image review[edit]

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
  • File:Grand_Theft_Auto_V_development.jpg: FUR could be expanded, particularly to fill in the "n.a." parameters
  • File:GTA_V_Main_Theme.ogg's FUR also should be expanded, and what is the length of the original piece? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the image review, Nikkimaria. I think I've taken care of everything. CR4ZE (tc) 16:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Hurricane Iris[edit]

Nominator(s): ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This article is about a powerful hurricane in October 2001 that was one of the worst on record in Belize. However, it was pretty small, so the damage was pretty localized. I believe this article is the best compilation of sources on the storm on the internet, and it passes all FA criteria. Hope you enjoy reading! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I copyedited the article per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 21:19, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Dank, I forgot to show my appreciation earlier! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Sure thing. - Dank (push to talk) 17:03, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Image and Source Review all images are validly in public domain sourced from United States government agencies. A source check of five citations indicates no close paraphrasing concerns and states the information cited. Secret account 01:18, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support well done hurricane article Secret account 01:18, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support excellent article. My only suggestion is that, in the see also section, the description for the Belize hurricane is a tad repetitive of the article title (and maybe is not necessary). Regards.--MarshalN20 Talk 02:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks! I removed the redundancy. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:22, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I made minor edits to the references. There was inconsistency with middle initials of the NHC authors. Other than that, I had no issue with the article.--12george1 (talk) 18:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support Comment: the caption for the track map mentions colored points, but does not indicate what each color means. (Yes, I know that it uses the SSHWS color scheme, but most readers don't know that, and MediaViewer hides the {{Saffir-Simpson small}} template transcluded in the File page. Please change the caption so that it indicates what each color means somehow. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 16:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • If it's OK, I brought this up on the project talk page, as this would affect every article in the project. I hope that the discussion will be resolved shortly, however :) ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:09, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Per the results of the linked discussion, I've gone ahead and implemented the change on {{storm path}}. That addresses all of my concerns, so switching to support. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 02:04, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - The topic of the order of units used has been brought up elsewhere, and since this is a candidate that is impacted, I thought I should draw some comment from those watching this FAC. The WP:MOSNUM#Units of measurement guideline says that for scientific articles, the main units chosen will be SI (with conversions in parenthesis) - km or km/h should come before m or mph. The MOS says that for non-scientific articles related to the US, you can use customary units first, but this seems to be about Belize. So my question to the nominator/voters: is this a scientific article or a non-scientific article related to the US? -- Netoholic @ 00:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
    • This is an interesting question. Normally I'd say it might better be pursued outside the FAC process but OTOH we might be able to knock it on the head quite quickly here. The nominator is using the same standard as in the related Hurricane Hattie, which was promoted to FA not too long ago. I notice he also applied local unit preferences to Cyclone Joy, employing metric first, which is the standard in Australia. That still leaves the question of whether a storm article should be considered 'scientific' or not, and whether an article on a storm that primarily affected Belize (a former British colony) should give primacy to metric or imperial measurements. I gathered that although otherwise metric, the British standard for speeds and distances is still imperial, in which case the standard applied here would make sense. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the thoughts Ian Rose. I don't believe a storm article should be scientific. Years ago, we decided not to use knots, meters per second, or nautical miles, which are the preferred units for scientific articles. We try and make them for the layperson to be able to read it. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Of Human Feelings[edit]

Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 01:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

This article is about a jazz album by Ornette Coleman. I attempted to address the previous FAC's concern about close paraphrasing by soliciting another reviewer ([11], [12]). I've also cleaned up the references for a consistent citation format/style and copy-edited/rewrote some parts ([13]). Dan56 (talk) 01:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments from DISEman[edit]

Overall I find this a well written, comprehensive, well-researched, referenced and structured article worthy of a Featured Article but there are a few (minor) points that may improve it further:

  • The statement under Recording that "According to him, Of Human Feelings was the first digitally recorded jazz album in the United States" may be true but there may be more details- a quick check of Litweiler, p. 152 states "It was the first time an American label [i.e. CBS] had recorded a digital album in New York, and it made front-page news in Billboard. here is the Billboard front page. Also Litweiler, pg. 153 supports the statement under Release and promotion that "A few weeks after the album was recorded, Mwanga went to Japan to complete arrangements for it to be issued as a Phrase Text release by Trio Records, who had previously released a compilation of Coleman's 1966 to 1971 live performances in Paris".
Done. Dan56 (talk) 16:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Critical reception is excellent using the contemporary reviews - I added one from Rolling Stone but the ref may need some editing to fit the article. Any reason for avoiding the rating template?
I've revised and moved the Rolling Stone quote so that it stays in-topic with the rest. That template is optional and didn't seem to suit this article IMO--only Christgau (The Village Voice), Yanow (AllMusic) in a retrospective review, and now Morrison (Rolling Stone) rated the album, and their ratings have been easily worked into the prose, so the template would only be reiterating a few ratings. Dan56 (talk) 16:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

All in all you have my Support DISEman (talk) 08:08, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Support. Article is well-balanced both in structure and content, sources cited seem reliable and plentiful. Friginator (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment from Semitransgenic[edit]

  • Comment for a featured article, citing anonymous record reviews directly is not ideal, would prefer to see such content replaced with secondary source citations that make the observations the editor is drawing our attention to. Also, saying how something charted and then citing the chart as a source could be viewed as OR. Otherwise, aside from those minor points, looks OK to me. Semitransgenic talk. 10:43, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean the line "...had no success on the American pop charts", Semitransgenic? Because that's attributed to a source that says this. Also, all the reviews cited in #Critical reception include the names of critics/authors of the reviews. Do you mean you'd prefer that there was a book that summarized the reviews itself? Citing reviews directly, however, is the most common practice in WP:ALBUMS articles, and there is a project page dedicated to such sources being cited (WP:ALBUM/SOURCE). Dan56 (talk) 15:41, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment from Froglich[edit]

Oppose This article, while by no means bad, fails at present to (IMO) maintain good criteria. Quibbles: 1) While the article is indeed comprehensive (it's obvious that fans have poured in a lot of effort) it is arguably excessively so given the minimal notability of its subject (a poor-selling album by a musician with five dozen other works, many of which are demonstrably far more noteworthy (e.g., The Shape of Jazz to Come being inducted into the Library of Congress, etc) yet possessing small article size relative to this one. Featured status is generally granted to well-written articles in topics of widespread interest; 2) no references in the lead; 3) grammar and sentence construction less than optimal (e.g., absence of parenthesizing where appropriate, poor deployment of commas and semi-colons, etc); -- My advice is to tighten up the article to hang onto good status -- and be glad you have that in the first place.--Froglich (talk) 07:20, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Froglich, 1) What "fans"? I'm the only editor who has contributed to this article, which was this before I started working on it. It is based entirely on what reliable secondary sources have written about it--significant coverage establishes notability (WP:SIGCOV), not popular interest. And the majority of the coverage cited here is from high-quality book and journal sources, who've decided it warranted this much coverage, otherwise they wouldn't have written so "excessively" about it. And although I get where you're coming from, "widespread interest" has nothing to do with the FA criteria (WP:FACR), so personal opinions on its notability in relation to other articles shouldn't be a factor in your assessment, only the points listed at WP:FACR. There are top-importance articles that garner the attention of certain editors, and there are articles like this, which I chose simply because the album interested me at the time, as it often the case with FAs--their importance varies and isn't exclusive to top or high-importance articles. 2) If what's written in the lead is written and cited in the body, citations are redundant in the lead (WP:LEADCITE) 3) semicolons before conjunctions like and is an unnecessary, outdated practice ([14]) I don't see the reasoning behind this addition/revision with parenthesizing, which deemphasized the line about critical praise, used "featuring"--a present participle--in the first paragraph, and linked "harmolodic" (which is already linked in the first paragraph). Dan56 (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
  • If you've been told that the rules of English grammar regarding sentence composition and punctuation are in some state of flux at present, you are have been led astray. (Grammar-monster at the vanguard of slovenliness does not impress those of us who know what we're doing.)--Froglich (talk) 05:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
There's no need to sound uppity about this, or refrain from backing up your argument with anything saying otherwise. My point was your change was unnecessary, as Geraldine Woods brings up in Wiley AP English Language and Composition. Preferential grammar changes aren't necessary. Dan56 (talk) 08:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
<shrug> Believe what you want. Reality will intrude soon enough to spank all those bad commas.--Froglich (talk) 00:32, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
  • While I understand this article is your labor-of-love, that has no bearing on whether or not it is ultimately worthy of Featured status -- being informative and well-written are not the sole requirements. Only 0.1% of Wikipedia articles acquire Featured status. For example, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is a Featured article, yet neither the preceding nor succeeding Beatles album articles are accorded even Good status despite being written in the same format with the same arrangement and depth of information. I would guess Pepper is Featured because it contains A Day in the Life, which tops some industry lists as the greatest pop/rock song of all time. In other words, it is immensely notable as one of it not the most famous song by one of if not the most famous bands in history. -- If any article concerning Ornette Coleman becomes Featured, it will likely be the one concerning his album or single with the most significant historical resonance.--Froglich (talk) 05:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I think you have the wrong impression of the GA and FA processes Froglich, and I don't see the relevance of other stuff existing when several other low-importance album articles have been promoted to FA status, including Confusion (album) (one of mine) and Good Girl Gone Bad: Reloaded. If this irks you, then you can choose to abstain from reviewing, but what you're arguing isn't an "actionable objection" and isn't benefiting the review process in any way, to better the article for FA purposes. Please read WP:FACR--the level of importance of the article's topic is not part of the criteria. I'm beginning to feel there's an issue of understanding WP guidelines (WP:CIR) when you've overlooked the criteria page and basic MOS guidelines in your edit to the lead. Ian Rose, am I missing something? Dan56 (talk) 08:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Don't have time for a long reply now but it's quite correct that the perceived 'importance' of a subject has nothing to do with its potential to become a Featured Article. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:30, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
"Potential" is arbitrary wishing-for-ponies; I referenced an actual Featured article. Dan brings up two more (which shoot down his own notability-is-unnecessary argument: Confusion (on at least one Best 100 Album lists) and Good Girl Gone Bad: Reloaded (which had two Grammy nominations) are considerably more successful and influential than Of Human Feelings. To reiterated a previously made point to Dan56, he should concentrate on improving the article concerning Coleman's best known and critically acclaimed work, or that of Coleman himself.--Froglich (talk) 00:32, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
GrahamColm, this reviewer's obstinacy and lack of competency are becoming an issue, as are his smug responses to every point I make in response to his arguments, which unlike mine, cite nothing to back up his claims. Disregard his review, because there are no actionable objections. Dan56 (talk) 03:19, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
And yet it was your bright idea to bring me in here, wasn't it? (Competence: having the brains necessary to realize that I wouldn't immediately club you with that upon the first hint of fallacious argumentum ad hominem.)--Froglich (talk) 08:06, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Again, you're using your personal definitions of Wikipedia guidelines and criteria. I attempted to randomly solicit reviews, rather than dubiously canvass editors I'm familiar with, whom I'd expect to be competent and have a grasp of those guidelines and criteria. You've been told by an FAC delegate that "importance" has nothing to do with the criteria, yet you continue to impose your personal criteria. How do you respond? By canvassing a retired editor you know opposed this article's previous FAC ([15]) Your review is losing more and more weight. Dan56 (talk) 03:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Would you care to wager on whether or not he still dislikes it?--Froglich (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
The ridiculousness of at least two of this reviewer's concerns for opposing was established at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Undermining_reviewer. Dan56 (talk) 00:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment from Hamiltonstone[edit]

  • Generally excellent
  • In the 'critical reception' section, there are some words and phrases that sound like they could be quotes and if not, are perhaps not quite neutral / encyclopedic: eg "compositions that are clearly expressed and occasionally timeless"; "displays expressive immediacy rather than superficial technical flair"; "encompassing of a century of creative development in African-American music". It would be good if those offline sources were checked.
The first one is a paraphrase of this. The second is a paraphrase of "the emphasis is never on virtuoso pyrotechnics for their own sake, or in empty stylistic phrase mongering. In every composition there is a synergy of thought and feeling that communicates instantly." The last one is a paraphrase of "The music literally pours out of this ensemble in strains of melody and rhythm that sums up the last 100 years of creative development in Afro-American music." I don't think neutrality matters when the words/paraphrase are attributed to a source in the prose, eg. "Natambu of the Detroit Metro Times said" what would otherwise not be neutral if in Wikipedia's words. Dan56 (talk) 06:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
I've tweaked one of the three; the others look OK. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The present tense here strongly suggests it is a quote: "his more knowledgeable friends have found Of Human Feelings to be the best of the three albums..."
Present tense? Isnt "have found" past? Dan56 (talk) 06:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
That would be "his more knowledgeable friends found..." but i realise i haven't used the right term - i'm nota grammar expert - but this phrase has him talking about the present - it sounds like a quote from a reporter of the period. Anyway, if it isn't a quote, then it isn't a quote... hamiltonstone (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Subject to these checks, i'm a support on prose, structure, comprehensiveness and referencing. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment from BananaLanguage[edit]

The third and fourth FAC reviews for this article were closed after a reviewer noticed what they perceived to be plagiarism. It is not clear to me that the nominator's attempts to address these accusations are sufficient ([16], [17]) because the types of close-paraphrasing that caused concern in the third review are quite different from simple lexical substitution. BananaLanguage (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

@BananaLanguage:, I asked for an independent review (as requested in the previous FAC) from an experienced editor and significantly revised several parts of the article (many of which were unnecessary, but I did it anyway just in case anyone is still anal about it just because there were a some examples--and no more since--brought up by one or two editors in the past FAC). I did mention these revisions at the top of this FAC, if you didn't notice? In the above comment from hamiltonstone, I showed relevant portions of print sources to prove to the reviewer they were paraphrased properly. If your concern is based in something you can prove, then bring it up. Otherwise, I don't know exactly what you expect. Your comment doesn't seem to suggest anything practical. Dan56 (talk) 16:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
One practical option would be to invite GabeMc and Laser brain to randomly, or closely, inspect the article to check for too-close paraphrasing. BananaLanguage (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
@BananaLanguage:, both retired not too long ago (User talk:GabeMc, User talk:Laser brain). And the burden would still be on me to dig up the sources I had originally found and write the relevant portions out for whoever is reviewing, which I demonstrated in the third FAC with at least one review in its entirety (the Detroit Metro-Times review), as well as the three that hamiltonstone asked about above. I've offered before to transcribe the relevant portions ([18]). The crux of this is whether these concerns or perception of close paraphrasing are yours, not theirs, and why, and also whether all these revisions since have made any difference in your opinion. Dan56 (talk) 08:37, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy requires that we assume good faith, however, this is proving difficult because you have a history [19] [20] [21] of close-paraphrasing sources. I think, in this case, it would be helpful if you could provide access to as many of the materials as possible, to help the community ensure this article is free of plagiarism. BananaLanguage (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
BananaLanguage, I don't have a history--you're citing what was an on-going dispute between I and GabeMc at Are You Experienced and at this article's past FAC again. As far as what sources I could "provide", I obviously could transcribe them all, but you don't expect me to do that, do you? I revised much of this article since that FAC you're bringing up, so perhaps you could request certain print sources citing the material that appears "untouched" or unrevised since that time. This is the diff between January when the last FAC happened and now. Dan56 (talk) 02:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it would benefit this FAC review if you could provide the surrounding paragraph of text for all the sources marked as subscription required. BananaLanguage (talk) 08:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Those four sources marked "subscription required" are news sources behind a paywall. Unfortunately I cannot access those anymore, because I had found them through Google News Archive and its search result previews (rather than actually having a registered account for Newsbank); Google News Archive was shut down in December of last year (Google_News_Archive#History), after I had written the bulk of the article last Fall. Certain book sources cited in this article, however, can still be accessed (to an extent) without a paywall of any sort, either through GoogleBooks' previews or's preview. Dan56 (talk) 09:06, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
In that case, I can take a trip to the nearby deposit library and use their resources to do this for you. The time-frame I propose to complete this task is 15 days, due to other real-life commitments . BananaLanguage (talk) 09:23, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
n.p. go for it. Dan56 (talk) 09:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. I am drawn to oppose this article per GAC Immediate Failure 3: "It contains copyright infringements.": see the discussion in Ref 7 and Ref 17 for an explanation of this conclusion. Furthermore, it does not meet FAC 1c) because refs 10, 17, and 22 are not found in the source text.

I planned to review the four sources marked as (subscription required) but the local deposit library does not have a subscription to back-issues of U.S. newspapers. Instead, I picked six books at random from the sources list and reviewed these. I used the guidelines in WP:PARAPHRASE and WP:COPYVIO while preparing this list. The surrounding source text is included to allow more experience FAC reviewers to make judgements about my interpretations of the source / article texts.

A concerted effort by the nominator to show the article contains appropriately sourced and paraphrased text would help this article to be reconsidered for Feature Article status. As it stands, I have no confidence that the remaining sources have been used without copyright or paraphrase violations.

@BananaLanguage:, I fixed/addressed the concerns below, and added my own list of sources checked. Dan56 (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Ref 4, Nicholson, 1998[edit]

a, p.313) Tacuma was recruited by Coleman while still in high school, and after his playing on Of Human Feelings he was widely regarded as one of the most distinctive bassists to arrive in jazz since Jaco Pastorius.

Tacuma, who was still in high school when he was enlisted by Coleman,[4]

No issues here.

b, p.313) With his own band largely made up of musicians from his home town of Philadelphia, he retained the complex vertical structures of Prime Time but framed them within commercially accessible melodies and engaging hooks.

He subsequently formed his own group and recorded albums that used Prime Time's complex vertical compositions, but composed them with more commercial hooks and melodic themes.[4]

Close-paraphrasing issues: "complex vertical structures" versus "complex vertical compositions"; and "commercially accessible melodies and engaging hooks" versus "commercial hooks and melodic themes".
Revised. Dan56 (talk) 01:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 7, Litweiler 1992[edit]

p170 a: actually on p.152.) In March, 1979 Ornette brought Prime Time - the name he was consistently applying to his band by then - into RCA's New York recording studios to make a direct-to-disc album for Artists House, but mechanical problems with the recording apparatus made the session a waste of time and energy.

In March 1979, Coleman went to RCA Records' New York studio and attempted to produce an album with Prime Time by direct-to-disc recording. However, they encountered mechanical problems with the studio equipment, and their recording was ultimately rejected.

No issue here.

b: actually on p.152.) Ornette wanted to set up his own record company, Phrase Text, named after his music-publishing company, and Mwanga set up a Phrase Text session at CBS Studios, with ninteen-year-old Calvin Weston replacing Ronald Shannon Jackson as Denardo's drum partner.

For the album, Prime Time's original drummer Ronald Shannon Jackson was replaced by Calvin Weston as Denardo Coleman's drum partner.[8]

Close-paraphrasing issue. Swapping the order of the musicians does not constitute putting it into one's own words.

c, actually on p.153) The drummers continue to accent strong beats and play marching-drum patterns; the two guitars remain background instruments while Ornette's alto solos and Tacuna's busy electric-bass responses are the foreground; if anything, Tacuma is more virtuosic than before, with nonstop lines virtually always in his highest ranges.

Coleman and Tacuma's instrumental responses were played as the foreground to the less prominent guitars.[8]

No issues here.

d, p.152-153) This session went off without any technical difficulties, and only a few weeks later Mwanga was in Japan completing arrangements to issue the album on the Phrase Text label, by Trio Records, whose previous jazz albums included a collection of Ornette Coleman performances in Paris in 1966 and 1971. While in Japan Mwanga also arranged for Ornette to perform Skies of of American with the NHK Symphony Orchestra, Japan's equivalent of the BBC Symphony and French National Radio-Television orchestras. In fact, Mwanga had delivered the record stamper to Trio and production was ready to begin on the album - but "When I came back from Japan, Ornette cancelled the agreements," says Mwanga. With that, Mwanga resigned; he had worked for Ornette for only four months.

A few weeks after the album was recorded, Mwanga went to Japan to complete arrangements for it to be issued as a Phrase Text release by Trio Records, who had previously released a compilation of Coleman's 1966 to 1971 live performances in Paris. He delivered the record stamper to Trio, who were ready to start production. While in Japan, Mwanga also arranged for Coleman to perform his song "Skies of America" with the NHK Symphony Orchestra. However, according to him, Coleman cancelled both deals upon his return from Japan. Mwanga immediately resigned after only less than four months as Coleman's manager.[8]

Copyright violation by lifting a paragraph from the source and barely rewording it.
Revised close-paraphrasing issue and entirety of the paragraph above. Dan56 (talk) 02:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 10, Litweiler 1992, p. 170[edit]

We recorded all the pieces only once, so all the numbers were first takes. And there was no mixing. It is almost exactly as we played it.

Not in the source text.
Yes, it is. (Wilson|1999|p=207) Dan56 (talk) 02:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 13, Harrison et. al 2000, p573[edit]
This quote is directly attributed to New York Times, 24 June 1981.
Ref 17, McRae & Middleton[edit]

a, b, c: p.67-68) It was as if Coleman was translating the concept of the famous double quartet of Free Jazz to the needs of Funk jazz. Coleman remained in control of the melody line, while Tacuma vacillated between supporting two strata beneath. One comprised a 'melody' support team of guitar and drums, while the other became a totally committed rhythm team, also of guitar and drums. The interaction was constant and, just as Coleman could take directional hints, there were times when it was he who changed tonalities, with the others modulating as required.

According to jazz critic Barry McRae, "it was as if Coleman was translating the concept of the famous double quartet" from his 1961 album Free Jazz to "the needs of funk jazz".[17] ... Coleman played the melody lines and employed two guitarists for contrast, as one part of the band comprised a melody contingent of guitar and drums, and the other guitarist and drummer were committed to a song's rhythm.[17] ... Coleman and Prime Time exchanged directional hints throughout the songs, as one player changed tonality and the others modulated accordingly.[17]

Close-paraphrasing issue, bordering on a direct copyright violation. It looks like this paragraph has been lifted and then reworded to make it look like one's own words.

d, p.67) In 1979, he recorded the album, Of Human Feelings, for the Antilles wing of Island Records and it was destined to be his last for some time.

, and Of Human Feelings was released in 1982 on Island's subsidiary jazz label Antilles Records.[17]

Not supported by the source at this location.
Revised paragraph lines attributed to [17] and added Davis source; [17] was cited to verify "jazz label" characterization. Dan56 (talk) 02:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 18, Giddins, 1985[edit]

Giddins, 1985 p.241) With Of Human Feelings (1979, released 1982), Coleman drew on his rhythm and blues days and, without compromising his own quartertone pitch, his affection for gusty lamentations, and those jarring keys, revived classic structures ("Jump Street" is a blues with a bridge) and countable time.

Coleman also drew on the rhythm and blues he had played early his career and incorporated traditional structures and rhythms. [18]

Close-paraphrasing issue: the first half of the sentence is lifted almost verbatim from the source.
Revised, rearranged. Dan56 (talk) 02:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 21, Davis 1986[edit]

a, p.143; b, p.143) Nonetheless, a modest commerical breakthrough seemend immiment in 1981, when he signed with Island Recrods and named Stan and Sid Berstein as his managers (the latter a promoter who brough the Beatles to Shea Stadium in 1965).

In 1981, Coleman hired Stan and Sid Bernstein as his managers,[21] who sold the album's recording tapes to Island Records.[22] He signed with the record label that year,[21] and Of Human Feelings was released in 1982 on Island's subsidiary jazz label Antilles Records.[17]

No issues.

c, p.143; d, p.143) "Nothing is simple for Ornette when it comes to money," says Stan Bernstein. "He made demans that are unrealistic in this business unless you're Michael Jackson". According to Coleman, "my managers sold Of Human Feelings, which was the first digital jazz album recorded in the U.S., for less money than it had cost me to make it, and I never saw a penny of the royalties. Coleman was paid $25,000 for the rights to Of Human Feelings, "not a terrific sum but not a modest sum, either, for a jazz artist," according to Ron Goldstein, who was at that time in charge of Antilles, Island's jazz custom label.

According to Coleman, his managers sold Of Human Feelings for less money than it had cost him to record, and he "never saw a penny of the royalties".[21] Stan Bernstein claimed that Coleman made financial demands that were "unrealistic in this business unless you're Michael Jackson".[21] Coleman was paid $25,000 for the publishing rights to the album, which Antilles label executive Ron Goldstein said was neither a "terrific" nor "modest sum" for a jazz artist.[43]

Possible close-paraphrasing issues over the course of a large block of text
Revised and rearranged. Dan56 (talk) 02:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 22, Davis 1986, p. 142-143[edit]

According to jazz writer Francis Davis, "a modest commercial breakthrough seemed imminent" for Coleman, whose celebrity appeared to be "on the rise again".[23]

Not found in the source at this location.
Yes, it is (Davis|1986|p=143). Dan56 (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Ref 26, McRae & Middleton[edit]

p.68 a) Yet, for all its potential commerciality, Prime Time's music made no impact on the American hit parade.

Despite its commercial potential, Of Human Feelings had no success on the American pop charts.[26]

No issues here.

b) Steve Lake suggested (The Wire, September 1985) that 'the 1984 disco-fied version of Dancing In Your Head that appeared on Jamaaladeen Tacuma's Renaissance Man offered a tantalising glimpse into how Ornette might sound if he opted more directly for the funk market'. Of Human Feelings offered only a funk/jazz compromise and, as such, satisfied nobody.

According to Steve Lake of The Wire, the album offered only a "funk/jazz compromise" to consumers and consequently appealed to neither market.[26]

Possible close-paraphasing issue in the second clause of the sentence. Also, it does not look like that can be attributed to Steve Lake, rather to McRae & Middleton.

c) Although the Antilles date was to be his last commercial release for six years, Prime Time was working regularly on both sides of the Atlantic.

Coleman did not record another album for six years and instead performed internationally with Prime Time.[26]

No issues here.
Revised "possible close-paraphrasing issue in the second clause". Dan56 (talk) 02:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Ref 1, Cohen p. 97[edit]

  • "In the mid-1970s, Ornette Coleman decided to stop recording free jazz with acoustic ensembles and sought to recruit electric instrumentalists for his music, based on a creative theory he developed called harmolodics.[1]" vs.
  • "By the time he wrote Skies of America, Coleman had abandoned his free jazz style for a mix of progressive jazz and funk based on an eccentric theory of creativity he called harmolodics. Also, by the mid-1970s, he no longer performed with acoustic trios and quartets but had recruited electric instrumentalists for an unusual line-up consisting of dual trios of drums, bass and guitar." ([22])

Ref 46, Cooper & Smay p. 238[edit]

  • "Of Human Feelings later went out of print." vs.
  • "Of Human Feelings, Ornette Coleman (Mango): Harmolodics goes electric. Out of print despite Ornette's stature and Mango's island connection." ([23])

Ref 14, Kennedy & Bourne p. 152[edit]

  • "According to The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music (2004), Of Human Feelings features jazz-funk, a type of music that originated in 1970 and was characterized by intricate rhythmic patterns, a recurrent bass line, and Latin rhythmic elements.[14]" vs.
  • "...Of Human Feelings which explored 'funk-jazz', a development dating from about 1970 features of which incl. a repetitive bass line, a hint of Latin rhythms, and complex rhythmic relationships." ([24])

Ref 6, Mandel p. 161[edit]

  • "Tacuma had been fired by jazz organist Charles Earland for what he felt was the excessive amount of attention his playing received from audiences, but Coleman encouraged him to remain what he called a "naturally harmolodic" player.[6]" vs.
  • "Later, Tacuma was fired by jazz organist Charles Earland because he was getting too much attention from the audience. But Ornette encouraged him as a 'naturally harmolodic' player." ([25])
Revised. Dan56 (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Ref 7, Mandel p. 162[edit]

  • "The band made no attempt to harmonize their radically different parts" vs.
  • " well simultaneously without trying to harmonize (blend) or play 'together'; they play their own parts that co-exist, and can be heard as belonging to very different orders of music..."

Comments from WikiRedactor[edit]

I recall GrahamColm saying in a previous FAC of mine that alt text isn't an FA requirement ([26]) Dan56 (talk) 02:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Even though the section isn't long, maybe you could split "Personnel" into two columns for musicians and additional personnel?
What do you mean? It already is lol (Of_Human_Feelings#Personnel) Dan56 (talk) 02:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I think that splitting the "Bibliography" section into 30em columns would make it a touch more organized.
K, done WikiRedactor. Dan56 (talk) 02:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Other than that, I have nothing else to add; it is clear you've put in a lot of effort into this article because it is in great shape. I trust that you will handle the alternate text, and my other two suggestions are pretty much a matter of personal preference, so I am happy to give you my support. Great job! WikiRedactor (talk) 18:59, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from SNUGGUMS[edit]

Overall, looking very nice :). Just several things:

  • When in 1982 was the album released?
None of the sources available or used specified, SNUGGUMS. Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "According to jazz writer Francis Davis, 'a modest commercial breakthrough seemed imminent' for Coleman, whose celebrity appeared to be 'on the rise again'"..... meaning "celebrity status"? Also, you might wanna tweak the beginning to something like "Jazz writer Francis Davis sensed Coleman was about to have a 'modest commercial breakthrough'".
"Celebrity" is used as a noun here → "Fame, renown; the state of being famous or talked-about." I used "According to" so that it would read better as the leading sentence in that paragraph; the next sentence uses the structure you're suggesting: "[Writer so-and-so] said that..." Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I've noticed there are no singles listed..... is this why the album has no chartings either?
I don't think jazz albums ever produce singles, but this album did not chart on any major charts. Only the Top Jazz Albums chart, but a "Charts" table/section is only necessary if there are multiple chartings (MOS:ALBUM#Charts) Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
No problem, just thought I'd ask SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 04:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The "M" in AllMusic should be capitalized.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Piped link, done. Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Piped link, done. Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Discogs is not a reliable source, so you'll have to take that out of the "External links"
It's not being cited as a source, just an external link, which have a different criteria for inclusion--"Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." (WP:ELMAYBE → "Links to be considered") Dan56 (talk) 04:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I see..... has Discogs been approved of as EL (like IMDb)? SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 04:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd assume so, since there was a template created just for it, which this article uses (Template:Discogs master), but the criteria for any EL is usually a site having relevant information that otherwise can't be worked into/cited into the article. Dan56 (talk) 04:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Very well. I now officially support. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 05:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
This is incorrect, Discogs most certainly is a reliable source, given releases are verified among a number of users to ensure release details are verified. So I don't know where that idea comes from whatsoever. As for EL's, Discogs has been used across WP for YEARS now – where have you been, lol!? This is additionally the very reason there are also four clear EL templates for linking to Discogs pages accordingly, see here: Template:Discogs Jimthing (talk) 14:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

There's my 2¢. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 03:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Adabow[edit]

A comprehensive media review was last done in the article's second FAC, so I'll do another to see how things stand:

Support on criterion 3, although I'll reiterate that it'd be nice to have definite source of the album cover. Adabow (talk) 03:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Done ([27]) Dan56 (talk) 03:34, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WonderBoy1998[edit]

I'm running late at the moment but I have read through the article, and it's crisp and incorporates technical terms well. One thing-

  • The lead's first two paragraphs both start with Of Human Feelings. I'd suggest altering the second one to "it" or "The album"
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that grammatically if the paragraphs start that way, although I find it more clearer to readers than "it", and "the album" may not be clear with the reference to "1975 album Dancing in Your Head" in the second paragraph's first sentence. Dan56 (talk) 21:35, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Other than that I will support this article, assuming that it will successfully pass a source check. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 07:09, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Flow Ridian[edit]

Dan56 asked me to comment here, so I'll make a few observations.


  • "It was well received by critics". I think well-received need a hyphen.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "However, the album made no commercial impact". I see this a lot on Wikipedia, and while many editors would not even mention it, this is a poor use of however, which should be used sparingly and should always follow a semi-colon.
Debatable → Linguistics professor Pam Peters insists that "there is no basis for suggesting that contrastive however should not appear at the beginning of a sentence" (The Cambridge Guide to English Usage, 2004). In fact, says The American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage (2005), "placing however at the start of a sentence can emphasize the starkness of a contrast." Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Coleman enlisted his son Denardo as manager after a dispute with his former managers over the album's royalties, which inspired him to perform publicly again during the 1980s." Two things, 1) it's odd to use enlisted here, which sounds faintly militaristic. Maybe hired is better. 2) You need to clarify what which refers to, as you mention to distinct things, a) the dispute over royalties, and b) Coleman's hiring of Denardo. It would also be nice to avoid using "manager/managers" twice in such a short span. Maybe, "After a dispute with his former managers over the album's royalties, Coleman replaced them with his son Denardo."
a) The source cited (in the body, supporting what's in the lead) doesn't specify "hired", i.e. earning a wage for it. b) Would "...royalties, a change that inspired..." be better? Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
That's seems better to me. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)


  • "He wanted to teach his young sidemen a new improvisational and ensemble approach, based on their individual tendencies, and also prevent them from being influenced by conventional styles.[2]" This is a faulty parallelism, because wanted and prevent are in different tenses. Maybe "He taught his ... and prevented them from"?
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "He had been fired by jazz organist Charles Earland" The preceding proper noun is Coleman, but I think you mean Tacuma.
Revised. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Coleman encouraged him to remain what he called a 'naturally harmolodic' player.[6]" I don't know what this means, and I wonder if most casual readers will either. Is there a way to translate this so it's not jargon?
Well, the jargon is explained in depth in the first paragraph, so readers should ideally read that first lol. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm still wondering if this makes enough sense to casual readers. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Recording and composition

  • "However, they encountered mechanical problems". Again, in high-quality writing we would not want to see the use of however unless it follows a semi-colon. It looks like you use this construction four times in the article; I suggest that you avoid this here and elsewhere.
  • "Jazz writer Stuart Nicholson viewed it as a culmination of Coleman's musical principles". I think you want to use the definite article here, not an indefinite one.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "a type of music that originated in 1970 and is characterized by intricate rhythmic patterns". This contains another faulty parallelism: originated is past tense, and "is characterized" is present tense.
Changed "is" to "was". Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Nix strummed variants on the melodies, while Ellerbee provided accented linear counterpoint.[20]" Omit the comma; it's unnecessary.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "middle frequency" needs a hyphen.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "collective improsivation" Spelling error.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "and posits Coleman's extended solo against a dense". I think this is an odd use of posits. Instead of "and posits", maybe "juxtaposing".
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Release and promotion

  • "on which it spent 26 weeks" should be "where it spent".
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "According to Steve Lake of The Wire, Coleman offered only a "funk/jazz compromise" to consumers with the album and consequently appealed to neither market." This is awkward; maybe, "According to Steve Lake of The Wire, On Human Feelings offered a "funk/jazz compromise" to consumers and consequently appealed to neither market.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "and did not conform to what he felt was the corny, romantic image of jazz that many of the genre's fans prefer". Either corny is the exact word from the source and should be in quotes, or it's a poor choice for encyclopedic writing.
The original word from the writer was "cornpone" which refers to characteristic of rural people, so would "simple" be better? Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
If the original word is "cornpone", I would avoid using "corny", as it has an entirely different meaning. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Changed to "simple". Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Critical reception

  • "Kofi Natambu of the Detroit Metro Times believed that Coleman's synergetic approach displays expressive immediacy rather than superficial technical flair". Faulty parallelism: "believed" and "displays" are different tenses.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "have found" should be "find" or "consider".
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "the stylistically ambiguous music is potentially controversial and 'unratable, but worth checking out.'[35]" Check the article for compliance with LQ.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "its discordant keys radically transmute conventional polyphony". This sounds like a close-paraphrase of jargon.
It's paraphrased from "The clashing keys require the biggest leap in faith, as they give strange dimensions to old-fashioned polyphony." This is a music article, some theory terms are expected. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that some terms are acceptable, but ideally these terms would then be linked. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
"Polyphony" is linked, "key" is linked in #Background. Those two should be the only ones that can come off as jargon-y. Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "On the other hand, Rolling Stone magazine's Buzz Morrison wrote" Swap "on the other hand" with "conversely" for a more encyclopedic tone.
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Of Human Feelings was voted as the thirteenth best album of 1982 in the Pazz & Jop, an annual critics poll run by The Village Voice.[40] Christgau, the poll's creator and supervisor, ranked it number one in an accompanying list.[41] In a 1990 list for the newspaper, he named it the second best album of the 1980s.[42] At that point, Of Human Feelings was one of only 18 albums to have received Christgau's 'A+' grade, which the Press-Telegram called 'the ultimate accolade'.[43]" This strikes me as a bit off-topic, as it's too much about the poll and Christgau, and the "ultimate accolade" seems to be there to glorify Christgau, not the album. Is an A+ grade from Xgau really the "ultimate accolade", as in the best the entire world has to offer? This at least needs to be put in context that it's rare to get an A+ grade from Xgau. Then again, this is a somewhat obscure jazz album, which is just the sort of thing that Xgau loves. You need to trim this to stay on topic of the album.
I disagree; the "ultimate accolade" contextualizes the praise of the album. This is the most significant poll of American music critics, and the source cited--Press-Telegram--believes the "A+" from Xgau is the "ultimate accolade", and it is written as such, not as fact. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Really? Why is this article a good place to explain details about Christgau's rating system? I think this is wildly off-topic, and if it belongs in the article at all it's in an endnote, not in-line text. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
It's not explaining anything about Christgau's rating system, just that the album being one of the few to receive an "A+" is notable (it'd seem less notable to readers without that characterization, which is attributed to the source as an opinion). Three sentences in the paragraph related to Christgau (two of which are accolades) don't seem off-topic or excessive. Furthermore, the last paragraph in this section deals with accolades, so "the ultimate accolade" would sort of be related to this. Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Does the cited source explicitly state that OHF is "one of only 18 albums to have received Christgau's "A+" grade"? Anyway, this is way too much detail about the poll and Xgau, and it's inherently misleading because Xgau is massively biased in favor of this type of music, but the way this is written it sounds as if OHF competes equally with the other albums Xgau has reviewed. This needs to be removed or significantly revised. Flow Ridian (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, of course it says OHF is "one of only...". Why else would I have cited it to support that sentence? Also, according to whom is Xgau massively biased in favor of this type of music? He acknowledged disliking "fusion jazz", yet this album and Jack Johnson were given "A+", suggesting he can reconcile that "prejudice" with a record he believes is good, regardless of its type. Dan56 (talk) 22:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you really arguing that Xgau is not a rabid jazz enthusiast who loves Ornette Coleman? The way this is written, it implies that the "ultimate accolade" in jazz music is to get an A+ grade from Xgau, which is beyond absurd and POV! I am strongly contending this language as written. Flow Ridian (talk) 22:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
There's no mention of "jazz" in this paragraph. It doesnt imply that at all. I don't see how this is a POV issue when the source mentioning both the album and Christgau is a third-party who found it notable enough to point out what they pointed out. This complaint doesn't seem to be grounded in anything other than the bias you suspect Christgau has, which isn't even relevant since a) he's a critic, that's kinda part of their job, and b) he's admitted to disliking jazz styles like fusion and '30s jazz. As an aside, if he really did love Coleman, he would have written at least a word on The Shape of Jazz to Come at some point in his journalistic career ([28], [29]) Dan56 (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The source is writing about Christgau, not Coleman and not OHF. You are bending over backwards to include the source not because of what it adds to the reader's understanding of OHF or Coleman, which it adds absolutely nothing to, but because it unduly glorifies Christgau. That's why I object to this language. The cited sources is a book-plug for Christgau, it's not even about Coleman. Flow Ridian (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Further, I think that you are misinterpreting and misrepresenting what the cited source actually says, which is "The 18 records given the ultimate accolade - an A-plus - include", but they are saying that an A+ is the "ultimate accolade" that Xgau gives, not that it's the "ultimate accolade" in the whole world!!! Flow Ridian (talk) 23:24, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I think you're misinterpreting the source's words; "Ultimate accolade" is not synonymous with "highest grade", which is made abundantly clear in the preceding paragraph: "Each album is given a grade on a scale ranging from A-plus to E-minus." And what "bending over backwards"? I found the Press-Telegram source simply by putting the album title in Google News Archive. You seem to be the one making such an effort to contest this "language" and scrutinizing sources that make statements/claim I'm guessing you happen to disagree with, right? Dan56 (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Aftermath and legacy

  • "After Coleman went over budget" should be "After Coleman had gone over budget".
Done. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "'never saw a penny of the royalties.'[21]" Check for LQ.
Source cited was a quote → "... and I never saw a penny of the royalties." Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
What I mean was, "never saw a penny of the royalties" is not a complete sentence, so the full-stop should not be included inside the quote marks. There appears to be several issues in the article pertaining to LQ. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. Also fixed the others ([30]). Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "After showcasing his style of avant-garde jazz on the album, Tacuma became widely viewed as one of the most distinctive bassists since Jaco Pastorius." This is a wild claim, IMO, and at the very least this contentious text should be immediately followed by the source.
"If one source alone supports consecutive sentences in the same paragraph, one citation of it at the end of the final sentence is sufficient." (WP:OVERCITE) Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, this claim needs further verification from independent sources. I had never before heard Tacuma mentioned in the same sentence as Pastorius, and quite frankly it's a ridiculous claim, IMO. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Apart from your opinion on the matter, is this claim contradicted by "the prevailing view within the relevant community", or is Stuart Nicholson a questionable source here (self-published, conflict of interest, etc.)? I'm not going to research this in-depth, but a quick search with the two names offered these: [31], [32], [33]. I don't see why this is an exceptional claim @Flow Ridian:. This article cites three books written or co-written by Nicholson, and I don't know of a contrary view regarding this. Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see these cites as supporting the claim that Tacuma is in the same league as Pastorius, which is what you are implying. By "mentioned in the same sentence" I meant to compare their relative abilities and influence. Stuart Nicholson is one source, and per WP:EXCEPTIONAL: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." Flow Ridian (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any saying otherwise. Why do you consider this an exceptional claim? Dan56 (talk) 22:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The way it's written, you would think that Tacuma ranks significantly high on lists of electric bassists in jazz music, but TMK he does not. He is usually not even mentioned. Flow Ridian (talk) 22:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
An NPR blog which qualifies itself with "We obviously can't cover all the 'basses' with five artists and songs, so be sure to tell us your favorite electric jazz bass players and performances in the comments", which lead to two that do. Nicholson is a "high-quality source", and the timeframe of the viewpoint he's summarizing is the 1980s. Dan56 (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't see him near the top of any lists, do you? If you do, then why not add a source or two so this isn't an issue? Flow Ridian (talk) 23:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
What "lists"? What does that have to do with the "one of the most distinctive bassists" claim? Dan56 (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
It presents Tacuma as on a similar level as Pastorius, which is ridiculous. Flow Ridian (talk) 23:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Nicholson is a high-quality source; I don't see you questioning any other material attributed to him throughout this article, so the fact that you're citing your personal opinion here undermines the complaint. Also, "distinctive" doesn't suggest greatness but uniqueness. Dan56 (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

That's pretty much all I can find. Flow Ridian (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Fixed most of the concerns, did my best to respond to the rest, @Flow Ridian:. Let me know if I overlooked or misunderstood anything. Dan56 (talk) 00:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I made some follow-up comments above, but I hope you come to your senses regarding the Christgau excess. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per FACR 1d: "neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias", at least until this business about over-emphasizing Christgau and misrepresenting the cited source is resolved. The Press-Telegram source is saying that an A+ from Christgau is the "ultimate accolade" that he gives in Record Guide: The 80's, not that it's an "ultimate accolade" in the music world. Flow Ridian (talk) 23:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
"Ultimate accolade" is not synonymous with "highest grade", which is made abundantly clear by the source in the sentence right before the reference to "the ultimate accolade": "Each album is given a grade on a scale ranging from A-plus to E-minus." There's no reason for the source reiterate the fact that A+ is Christgau's highest grade. This is a gripe based on some point-of-view issue you seem to have with jazz and this particular critic, rather than WP:FACR. Dan56 (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Look, you asked me to review the article, so I did. You should be thanking me, not debating my oppose. Now please show some class, and stop arguing with everyone who disagrees with you. Flow Ridian (talk) 23:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I've corrected every legitimate concern and appreciate that you pointed them out. But these two aren't such concerns, and you were welcome to disregard the message/invitation like I said. I've defended them and responded to your belief that it's misrepresenting and overemphasizing that critic, which is your basis for opposing smh. Don't accuse me of classlessness when you've interjected these concerns with an appeal to personal opinions ("ridiculous", "absurd", etc.) Dan56 (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know why you insist on personalizing this, but I must say that you've acted aggressive and immature. I don't dislike jazz music or Christgau, in fact I have a deep respect for both. That's not the issue here, which is that the Press-Telegram source is using the "ultimate accolade" in terms of Christgau's rating system, not as in the entire world of music. E.g., a grammy award for best jazz album would certainly top an A+ grade from Christgau, right? Maybe you should ask a delegate to take a look at the source and decide which one of us is reading it incorrectly. GrahamColm, are you interested in weighing-in here? Flow Ridian (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
A Grammy Award for best jazz album? A music industry conceit as voted by a seemingly anonymous panel industry people not from the journalistic community? I strongly disagree, but once again we are venturing into opinions. I responded to your concern about it being "in terms of Christgau's rating system": what neither of us can disagree on is the fact that the Press-Telegram outlines the grade range in the sentence directly before it; I should also point out how silly it'd be for them to have to characterize an "A+" in the context you're suggesting since almost everyone in America is familiar with the letter grade system, so why would they have to reiterate that it's the "ultimate" grade in the letter grade system? Btw, I did ping you at Talk:Of Human Feelings#Last sentence in Critical reception, so maybe GrahamColm should be directed there if he has an opinion on the matter? Dan56 (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
If you'd been listening to anything I've said, you'd see I mentioned it numerous times that it is being attributed as the opinion of the newspaper; it'd be an exceptional claim if it was written as fact. And it's not an advertisement; the original source is part of a larger music column in the Press-Telegram, but the source now available (since Google News Archive became defunct last Fall) shows it as a reprinted blurb. Dan56 (talk) 21:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
You are really stretching to justify this point, which again has nothing to do with OHF and everything to do with Christgau. According to this source, the NEA Jazz Masters is the Nation's Highest Honor in Jazz, not an A+ grade from Xgau. Do any actual jazz musician's cite an A+ from Christgau as the "ultimate accolade"? Flow Ridian (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"Stretching"? You're the one making this about "the highest honor in jazz" (?) and finding websites to support your effort to get this opinion from the Press-Telegram removed, while continuing to put words in both my mouth and the source's; there's no mention of jazz honors in the Press-Telegram. Refer to Talk:Of Human Feelings#Last sentence in Critical reception, where I pointed out the Press-Telegram begins their blurb by contextualizing its relevance to music criticism, which the #Critical reception section is entirely about. You can disagree with the Press-Telegram's position, but their opinion is verifiable and ties to the inclusion of Christgau's "A+" grade in this paragraph and the paragraph's dealing with accolades, and IMO you should have more than your own difference of opinion to make an argument for its removal. Dan56 (talk) 19:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
To use this article as a platform to declare that an A+ grade from Christgau is the "ultimate accolade" in all of music is to make an exceptional claim, and per WP:EXCEPTIONAL: "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources." So, do any other sources support this statement, or is this solely the opinion of an anonymous writer who is basically writing an advertisement that plugs one of Christgau's books? Flow Ridian (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, if this is the major complaint remaining in the review, any further responses regarding this by me will be at the talk page, where it's being discussed. Dan56 (talk) 19:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
According to Simon Burchell ([34]) and Maunus ([35]) in that discussion you linked, there's no problem with my having done so. I don't expect even 1/20 of those solicited to respond. I'm wondering why you've chosen to bring this up now though. Dan56 (talk) 21:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm bringing this up now, because you appear to be manipulating the Wikipedia consensus process by canvassing people to discussions in which you have a conflict of interest. Since you're pinging people, maybe Froglich and BananaLanguage would like to add to this discussion. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
If this is what I called it in my edit summary, I'm not bothering contesting it anymore. I've revised it, Flow Ridian. Dan56 (talk) 19:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
That's better, but it does not address the fact that Xgau is mentioned (i.e., name dropped) 5 times in the section. Why is it notable that OHF was ranked the "thirteenth best album of 1982" in the Pazz and Jop poll, and why do we need to know who created the poll? Flow Ridian (talk) 19:29, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
His name is written three times in #Critical reception. Are you familiar with the Pazz & Jop? How is it not notable when its a poll of the leading music critics nationwide? Mentioning Christgau's role offers a transition from one sentence to the next. Otherwise, there's less flow from the sentence about it being voted 13th to what would appear to readers as an unrelated or confusing turn with the following sentence ("what does Christgau have to do with the Pazz & Jop?", "why did he have an accompanying list?", etc.) In music journalism, the poll is important, as is Christgau; both are written about in numerous books and high-quality sources related to the subject, so please don't require me to justify their notability when your question about what makes this notable seems open-ended and can just as well be applied to the Phoenix and Billboard accolades, or several other things mentioned in this article. Dan56 (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
None of the other critics are mentioned more than once, so why is Xgau mentioned by name three times and by pronoun twice? I don't dispute Christgau's notability, but his importance to music journalism has waned considerably since the mid-1990s. He can't even get hired by anyone anymore, so how is he still of utmost relevance if nobody wants to publish his reviews? Also, your new construction: "At that point, Of Human Feelings was one of only 18 albums to have received Christgau's "A+" grade, which the Press-Telegram called his "ultimate accolade".[43]" is redundant/repetitive, since everyone who understands what an A+ is knows that it's the highest grade in that system. Like I said in my oppose statement, this section reads as an attempt to assert Christgau's importance when it should be focused on the importance of OHF. The Christgau stuff is WP:UNDUE, and it could be summarized in two or three sentences. Instead of:

Of Human Feelings was voted as the thirteenth best album of 1982 in the Pazz & Jop, an annual critics poll run by The Village Voice.[40] Christgau, the poll's creator and supervisor, ranked it number one in an accompanying list.[41] In a 1990 list for the newspaper, he named it the second best album of the 1980s.[42] At that point, Of Human Feelings was one of only 18 albums to have received Christgau's "A+" grade, which the Press-Telegram called his "ultimate accolade".[43]

We should have:

Of Human Feelings was voted as the thirteenth best album of 1982 in The Village Voice's annual Pazz & Jop poll.[40] Christgau ranked it number one in an accompanying list, and in 1990 he named it the second best album of the 1980s.[42] At the time, it was one of only 18 albums to have received his "A+" grade.

Flow Ridian (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but he's still published and has written most recently for Billboard, NPR, Spin, and Rolling Stone ([36]), and even if your claim about his notability waning since the 1990s were true, what bearing would that have on an article about an album from 1982? I've merged the two sentences btw. Dan56 (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You are the one who keeps trying to set-up the strawman argument that this is about Christgau's notability/reliability; it's not. I never made a single comment to the contrary that wasn't in direct response to something you said. He is obviously reliable (but biased) and notable (but widely disliked). He was fired from Rolling Stone and Blender, and MSN stopped paying him for reviews. That's all I was referring to, because as I said above, I have a deep respect for him even though I think most of his reviews are lazy rubbish, and his lack of objectivity limits his usefulness. Your recent edit does nothing to remediate the excess. Why retain, "the poll's creator and supervisor"? This is about Xgau, not OHF, and that's why it's off-topic. It's enough to just say that it was one of 18 albums to get an A+, but you refuse to budge on the "ultimate accolade" bit. This is far too tedious, and I think I understand why you spammed 100 editors for reviews, because unless they come in and support you hound them to death so that they will never review another of your FACs. If you decide to trim the excess let me know, but until that time my oppose stands. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
But I already answered that: "why retain"--Mentioning Christgau's role offers a transition from one sentence to the next. Otherwise, there's less flow from the sentence about it being voted 13th to what would appear to readers as an unrelated or confusing turn with the following sentence ("what does Christgau have to do with the Pazz & Jop?", "why did he have an accompanying list?", etc.) You're showing an unwillingness to compromise over something this minor, and I think any delegate will see that when they review your oppose. I placed the "ultimate accolade" bit in the context you argued for, but now giving me this ultimatum that if I don't remove it altogether your oppose of an otherwise worthy article stands? Dan56 (talk) 21:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no need to spoon-feed the reader that an A+ is the top grade in that system; anyone who understands the A+ to E- grading system will already know this, which makes it awkward and redundant, and it shifts the focus from OHF to Christgau and his long ended supervision of the poll. Like I said, this is way too tedious. I wanted to respond to your request and review as a courtesy, but this has turned into a frustrating time-sink. For someone whose prose is less than excellent, you are too controlling over the precise language of this article. Your irrational reluctance to shift the focus from Christgau to OHF is disconcerting, and per WP:UNDUE I am not going to retract my oppose until you do so, because your over-emphasis of Christgau is the primary reason for my oppose in the first place. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
But earlier you said that my revision was better. Dan56 (talk) 21:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I said it was better but you are still overemphasizing Christgau. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed it. Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── What about, "the poll's creator and supervisor"? Isn't this information available at Pazz & Jop? Flow Ridian (talk) 21:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Mentioning Christgau's role offers a transition from one sentence to the next. Otherwise, there's less flow from the sentence about it being voted 13th to what would appear to readers as an unrelated or confusing turn with the following sentence ("what does Christgau have to do with the Pazz & Jop?", "why did he have an accompanying list?", etc.) His association should be noted IMO; readers could also see "American jazz saxophonist and composer" at Ornette Coleman, but why should they bother going there when it could be written here? Christgau's role/association is not common knowledge for most readers. Dan56 (talk) 21:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I strongly disagree with this false dilemma, and I contend that my version is far superior to yours:

Of Human Feelings was voted as the thirteenth best album of 1982 in The Village Voice's annual Pazz & Jop poll.[40] Christgau ranked it number one in an accompanying list, and in 1990 he named it the second best album of the 1980s.[42] At the time, it was one of only 18 albums to have received his "A+" grade.

Why does this not flow well, IYO? Flow Ridian (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
There's no transition from the poll to Christgau. I don't see how introducing Christgau's role at the poll at the time over-emphasizes his importance in this paragraph. It's nitpicky IMO. Dan56 (talk) 21:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "astonish the senses with music made tender by abstract rhythmic interplay and artless pieces of melody"
This is not encyclopedic writing, and if it's not a close paraphrase it's probably WP:OR. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The source is available for you to see. Is this a legitimate concern, or more Xgau hate? Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Please stop with the strawmen; I never expressed any hate for Christgau. Now you are being abusive. This one too strikes me as unencyclopedic or OR. "the dilutive digital production and occasionally disjointed, one-dimensional playing". Please see WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:42, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
It "strikes" you? I did stick to the source. I removed "the ultimate accolade" bit. What more do you want? Dan56 (talk) 21:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
It's merely a turn-of-phrase, i.e., this seems to me or this catches my eye. Stop being so combative. It seems to me as though you do not have the chops to intelligently paraphrase writing that describes musical attributes, particularly technical stuff, as most of what isn't in quote marks reads, IMO, like someone who does not know what they are talking about. Flow Ridian (talk) 21:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Did you check the source in either? Dan56 (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Which example of unencyclopedic writing are you referring to? If it's the "music made tender" text then yes, and I don't see how you got tender from that! Flow Ridian (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
"...warm, listenable harmolodic funk ... The teeming intellectual interplay of the rhythms is no less humane than the childlike bits of melody." Dan56 (talk) 22:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think this was a poor choice for paraphrasing, as Xgau's version isn't much bette