Help talk:IPA for Astur-Leonese
- Thanks for the examples.
- Well, as far as I know, Asturian doesn't have nasal vowels,
syllableword-final nasals neutralise into velar allophones. Regarding [ɫ], I've never heard about such realisation in Asturian (or Galician). Do you have a source that proves the existence of nasal vowels and dark l in bable? Jɑυмe (xarrades)
Well, there is little written on asturian phonology, so i only can give you the official grammar (Gramática de la llingua asturiana. 3ed. Uviéu : Academia de la Llingua Asturiana, 2001) that in pg. 24 states asturian vowels. Also I can give you some recordings of speakers where in certain recordings you can hear the dark l and the final nasal consonant. --Saguzar1 (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Gramática de la Llingua Asturiana (2001) mentions Asturian has 5 phonemic vowels, it doesn't mention anything about [ɫ]. IMO, a dark l would sound a bit odd in Galician, Asturian and Leonese (though I am not sceptic about its existence, perhaps a velarised allophone of /l/ could exist near the Portuguese border in Galicia, León, etc., I don't know. However, unluckily we can't add these sounds till we get reliable sources). Jɑυмe (xarrades)
In pg. 24 (copy and paste): - La vocal /a/ realízase [a� ] palatal en hachu, baxa, algaire; [a. ] velar en prau, xeláu; [a] media en falar, casa; [˜a] nasal en mano, mancar. - La vocal /e/ realízase [e. ] zarrada en conceyu, xente; [e� ] abierta en repla, pex; [ö] llabial en fueu, nocéu; [˜e] nasal en mena, neña. - La vocal /i/, pel so llau, presenta pronunciaciones como [i. ] zarrada en diximos, filu; [i�] abierta en esguil, risa; [˜ı] nasal en mina, inda; [j] semiconsonante en pioyu, mieu; [ i �] semivocal en coméi, algaire. - La vocal /o/ pronúnciase [o. ] zarrada en llocu, xostra; [o� ] abierta en xorra, voi; [˜o] nasal en monxa, ónde. - La vocal /u / realízase [u. ] zarrada en camuda, lluria; [u� ] abierta en murnia, turria; [ ˜u] nasal en munchos, punxo; [w] semiconsonante en fueya, güei; [u�] semivocal en pautu, aniciáu. On pg 42: d) [ l�] palatal cuando-y sigue una consonante palatar [ˆc], [y], [ � s], [�n] o [ l�]: colcha, el chinu, el yerbatu, álxebra, el xabón, el ñuedu, mal lladrón. So, you're right, that's not [ɫ]. However, the use of nasal vowels as allophones is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saguzar1 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
By the way,I think ɖ should be included only in Asturian, as its area extends only in Ibias and Degaña, so I think is better having two rows, one for ɖ in Asturian, and another for ʈ͡ʂ, ɖ͡ʐ and t͡s in both Asturian and Leonese.(t͡s being the most common). I would like to do it, but i don't know how to do that.--Saguzar1 (talk) 23:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
1 - I've never heard of nasalized /ɨ/ in Portuguese, or that this sound would be truly [ɨ] in any contemporary Southwestern European language. And my reasoning is that Mirandese has these perceivabable phonetic differences from other Astur-Leonese dialects not because of its singularity but because of its influence from Portuguese.
2 - Similarly, stressed /ɐ/ is quite different from schwa /ɐ/ in European Portuguese (and to a little extent, few dialects of other Portugueses as well), and this is generally accepted in articles about Portuguese that usually respectively related them to /ʌ/ and /ə/ of North American English, and to /ɜː/ and /ə/ of British English, respectively (the reason why I made the distinction here similar to that of WP:IPA for Portuguese and Galician).
3 - I made this distinction with other purposes: I've heard that [x] is merged to /k/ in some or most English dialects, that the North American alveolar thingy is the opposite of the Iberian ones (I don't remember more which one is the flap or the tap) – and that it is also present in other dialects, but in different environments –, that some dialects velarize all their els, including many GA speakers, that as noted above some British and North American English phonemes that most closely relate to their West Iberian equivalents are used in different environments of this same language (but discussing it would be useless as in this case I completely agree that your examples were better than those of mine), as I searched in articles such as English phonology before my edits. Wouldn't it be useful rather than useless?
4 - In the next time me or someone else edit it, there is problem with using another example for dental /d/ instead of 'die'? It does not sound as our 'dái' (imperative 'give') to my years as dai ('big' in Japanese language), but rather more like an affricate, the same happening with /t/ (seriously, I am used to English). Lguipontes (talk) 05:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan of parsing our English approximations by dialect. I think it unnecessarily restricts who these guides are able to help to people familiar with multiple dialects. This was the guiding principle behind some of my reverts.
- The closest equivalent to [ɐ] is the /ʌ/ of English, particularly because that sound is centralized compared to cardinal [ʌ] in a lot of English dialects.
- I think the flap/tap distinction is minor enough that we don't need to say "roughly."
- You are right that [x] is not present in all dialects. I've restored the mention of Scottish English
- You say you changed [ɨ] to [ɯ] because you've never heard that it wouldn't be [ɯ]. What does Portuguese have to do with it? That seems kind of strange reasoning. But if it really is the latter, why don't we just transcribe it as such?
- I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about d. What do you think would be a better example? — Æµ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 18:10, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
- For me that is ok, I didn't know about that. Sounds pretty reasonable, although I think that if Portuguese Wikipedia had a sort of well-organized project on linguistics, the same argument would be made on our language varieties (and according to legend people used to love arguing over that there... -giggles-), and Portuguese and English are sometimes compared in this sense (also BP and AE with most speakers, standard EP and BE with most countries using it). Nevertheless it also depends on what you look on your neighbor, whether your differences or your similarities.
- Some rare English [ʌ], less fronted, sound rather like our [ɔ], a reason why I related it to [ɜ], a central vowel phoneme present in all or the overwhelmingly majority of Englishes, dialectal or idiolectal. While it is true that the more common [ʌ] realization of, to say, duck [ˈdɐk] is close to Portuguese and Brazilian stressed [ɐ], our unstressed [ɐ] is generally closer to a schwa (more in Portugal than in Brazil), and it is indicated in WP:IPA for Portuguese and Galician.
- Because of the traditional transcription of Portuguese [ɯ] led me to believe that this should be the standard for Mirandese too. Also, it was transcribed as [ɨ] before I get here, so I saw this as a minor error.
- Well, the d is pretty simple to understand. Try to listen to the Google Translate's Brazilian woman saying da ameixa, da lâmpada, dã maçã, dé Érica, dê êxtase, di índios, dó Órion, dô original, du urubu, substituting comma plus space by Enter, and then listen the English-speaking one saying da cap, duh hurr, day in May, dair hair, dear near, doctor, door, Florida, dynamics, mantaining the commas but substituting the spaces by Enter. You will note that it has much more "turbulence" (?), to the exception of Florida and dynamics (the best things I thought of), and that it is also stronger in "doctor", with presence in both alveolar stops.
- If you want a simpler word, then door had much less turbulence than die, but I truly don't make any idea if this would apply to all, most or even some English speakers. My turbulence speaking English would be even much greater than usual as I would correct my extremely pronounced accent (most importantly with /ti/ and /di/) with these apparently [ts] and [dz] affricates. Lguipontes (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)