Talk:1967 Detroit riot

12th Street?

The author of the "Name" heading is exactly right on all his points. As one who studied the media coverage of the event (Detroit Free Press and The Detroit News) as an undergrad and a native Metro Detroiter I have never heard the term 12th Street. This is especially misleading since it can imply that the events of the riot never left 12th Street which is untrue. The terms most used colloquially are the 1967 Detroit Riot, '1967 Riot' or '67 Riots'. This riots were most deffinatley linked to racism and the black community's view of the Detroit Police at the time. This is an important distinction to everyone in southeast Michigan since this was an enormous event in this area's developmental, political and social history. Secondly the term 'Blind Pig' was a widely used term in the media and historical reference of this event to describe the establishment that police raided that July 23rd. The term should remain in the article with description and meaning. I move to remove the term '12th street' from the article completely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.124.188.74 (talk) 19:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

But thats what the riot was called at the time the 12th street riots. And the start of the riots we're on 12th & Clairmount, not Grand River Ave 99.36.11.133 (talk) 06:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Blind Pig

I move that the use of "blind pig" is essentially generational slang and sets the wrong tone for an informal article142.35.159.177 (talk) 20:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The term "Blind Pig" is almost always used by scholars and informal discussers alike when talking about the '67 Riots. This is true to the point that many natives of Detroit actually think that the bar was called "the Blind Pig," and don't recognize that that's just another term for a speakeasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.189.152.42 (talk) 22:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Shebeen

OK, Blind Pig is 'generational slang' but it does have the advantage of being the slang the people who were there used to describe it. It was described thusly in nearly all the news reports of the time. "Shebeen" appears to be a South African version. Why use *that* slang? It's even less accessable and less historically correct. I will therefore remove it and use a much more generic term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.227.211.83 (talk) 07:22, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Name

Why the "12th Street Riot"? I was in Detroit during and after the Riots and I never heard them referred to as the "12th Street Riot". It's not a descriptive name because the riots spread over a huge area, including the east and west side of the city. I always heard the riots refered to in Detroit as "The '67 Riot", to differentiate from race riots that had taken place in the 1940s and earlier. I would suggest changing the title of this article from "The 12th Street Riot" to "The 1967 Detroit Riots" which is what most people would recognize as the consensus name.

Also, the long absurd claim that it wasn't a race riot. B.S.! Everyone knew it was a race riot. The fact that blacks and whites were both killed proves nothing, in terms of substantiating this claim. Many buildings were painted with slogans like "Soul" "Black Owned" "Brother" during the riots. Many so painted avoided arson. Every person I know who lived there during the riots thought of them as primarily racial.

The author says it is sometimes considered a "rebellion". That only makes sense as a racial rebellion. Else what were people rebelling against? Every factor sighted in the "background" section is essentially racial.

I have removed the two paragrahps that, situated in the front of the article, convey the false impression that racial issues were not at the forefront of the Detroit Riots of 1967. They were.

I have removed the incorrect assertion that the federal troops were mostly black. The 82nd Airborne at no point has been 515 or more black.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.96.151 (talk) 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the claims that it goes by the name of "rebellion;" some writers with scholarly credentials are cited as proof that has actually been called that, but it's going to take solid evidence that this is generally recognized if not mainstream usage rather than inflammatory partisan rhetoric before that's justified, esp in the lead. DavidOaks (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Dug a little deeper. We got the Daily Worker, and a squib in the news that claims "blacks who lived through it call it a rebellion." Not evidence of regular usage. Just somebody making a point that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. DavidOaks (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Caucasian

"Caucasian" is a proper noun and should always be capitalized. But anyway, since people outside the U.S. might not understand the term, it's probably better to just use "white."

Overkill

The word "black" appears in the article more than 60 times. I believe that most of the slain people were mixed-race colored people, some of them with Caucasian blood in their veins. People apply the word "black" excessively and sloppily in Wikipedia. Superslum 02:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The term is used in a manner entirely consistent with common American English usage. Rmhermen 03:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, phrases like "angry black males" in the description of the riot's start are clumsy and carry heavy connotations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.198.98 (talk) 07:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact is, they were angry, most were of African-American descent (i.e. black), and most (if not all) were males... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.189.152.42 (talk) 22:29, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Contradict tag

The article currently says there were over 7,500; 7,231; more than 1,800; or 1,800 arrests.

Fixed. Tyronen 19:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Proximate Causes Don't Pass the Common Sense Test

I find it odd that discrimination and displacement are proposed as proximate causes for riots by blacks. Blacks are not the only group of people to have their homes raised to make way for freeways. There must be some other mechanism at work here.

I believe that the article includes references to redlining,which is the practice of restricting bank loans for black residents to certain neighborhoods. While not the only factor -- police brutality is the major reason given my most poll responders -- certainly the housing lending laws mentioned, combined with the destruction of "redlined" areas, contributed to the riot. Twohlford 00:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder how many of the respondents gave the answer "well, I thought I'd riot and justify it aftwards"?

194.46.186.113 (talk) 22:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Stop.

___________________________________________

According to the Wikipedia page on Genocide: "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

I believe this concept is grossly inaccurate/inappropriately linked. The race riots in Detroit were many horrific things, but a systematic and deliberate attempt to annihilate the African-American race they were NOT.

My fellow Wikipedians ...!!! Let's record history, not re-write it.

Agreed.

Citations

It looks like a rather good article to me. However I think it could use a lot more citations of where all the info comes from. It would, in my opinion, lend greater validity to the article in many peoples eyes. Not that I am questioning it's validity particularly; it just needs more citations.Historiocality 00:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I started that process. I know I've seen source docs on this stuff, we just have to find them. Twohlford 02:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Rating?

So what would the Wiki ratings gurus like to see to improve this article? Twohlford 02:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

To start, more inline citations and supporting material (images). After that maybe submit the article to WP:PR. --Elliskev 12:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Source problems for an account

Somewhere in the edits, you'll see that I removed the story of John Conyers trying to stop the riot found in "The Revolutionary Worker". Mysteriously, it reappeared. That story is not found elsewhere, and I suspect that Conyers would've told the story elsewhere if true. Without a collaborative source, and given the source, I'm inclined to pull this story from this piece. Twohlford 00:30, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

New Detroit Section?

Shouldn't we have a "Today" section talking about how detroit has made improvments. After all the entire city wasn't just abandoned and as most of you know who have been downtown in the last year it looks beautiful. Maybe show a picture of 12th street "Rosa parks street" of what it looks like today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.210.111.85 (talk) 22:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

12th street today looks worse than the riots. 99.36.11.133 (talk) 06:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Pop culture refrences

was this the riot depicted in the 2007 film "Across the Universe" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.138.32 (talk) 21:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC) Yes the riots were during the song let it be. There is a riot going on and the police car or fire truck can't remember which one it says Detroit. Also the time period of the film kind of matches up.Sbailey85 (talk) 21:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Black Day in July

There was a song written by Gordon Lightfoot called "Black Day in July," which made reference to this event. Here is an article and interview about the song being banned on US radio. [1] Would someone who knows more about race riots be willing to incorporate this? Flibirigit (talk) 07:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I should have mentioned expanding on the one sentence that is in there, and the censorship of the song. Flibirigit (talk) 07:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There's also a Sam Roberts song called Detroit '67[2] that talks about the riot. 216.162.76.214 (talk) 05:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Name (revisited)

I have no idea which local yokel decided that this should be called the "12th street riot", but the 1967 Detroit riot was an event of national importance, and it certainly wasn't confined to one street. As it is, nobody would be able to locate this article out of a list of riots in America. There's no reason for the word "Detroit" to be censored from the title. I propose to change this to a more recognizable name unless someone has a valid objection. Mandsford (talk) 21:46, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Decades afterward, it was just called "the riot" in Detroit. In the rest of the country, "the Detroit riot" the "Detroit race riot" or the "Detroit race riot of 1967." In all my years in Detroit, I never personally heard it called (or read a ref to it as) the "12th street riot". I've been working through the claims that this was called a "rebellion" and this is a related issue that could use some documentaiton. Rutgers history dept calls it "Detroit riot of 1967" [3] and some variation of that seems to be most common[ http://www.absolutemichigan.com/dig/michigan/remembering-the-detroit-riot-of-1967/] even when they steal text from this article. Wayne State Library seems pretty authoritative[4] Should the article be re-named? I myself don't know how to do that without messing up the histyory. DavidOaks (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Never mind; I see that the issue has been resolved. I was just paying attention to old discussion and assuming it was still a live concern. DavidOaks (talk) 19:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I was 9-years old and living in the Detroit suburbs in July, 1967, and I remember the riot quite well. It was referred to as "the riot," and while it started on 12th Street (later renamed Rosa Parks Boulevard), I do not recall it being referred to as the "12th Street Riot." The riot was quite extensive (primarily on account of LBJ's criminally negligent refusal to respond promptly to Governor Romney's request for assistance), and placed all of Detroit off limits to those of us who were in the suburbs (not that we wanted to go anyway). The "67 riots" nomenclature came later. It is important to distinguish the 1967 riot from the 1943 riot. John Paul Parks (talk) 02:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Mikerussell edits

I edited this article (jeez I'm rusty though- excuse me if I screwed up some ref HTML) because it needs it, I tried to take out generalized contemporary opinions, and add some sourced fact but a lot more needs to be done just to make it average, in my humble opinion.Mike Russell 02:28, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• I tried to add some sourced material, but it may take time to really add more substance- others are welcome to add.edit too. I'm no expert, but it seems like a pretty skeletal article so far.--Mike Russell 21:54, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Race riots should not be linked to "genocide"

According to the Wikipedia page on Genocide: "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

I believe this concept is grossly inaccurate/inappropriately linked. The race riots in Detroit were many horrific things, but a systematic and deliberate attempt to annihilate the African-American race they were NOT. Violent manifestations of racial tension in the U.S. during the 1960s are incompatible with the concept of "genocide" and obscure not only the true nature of this situation but also the significance of this event.

Please, my fellow Wikipedians!!! LET US RECORD HISTORY, NOT RE-WRITE IT.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.35.159.177 (talk • contribs) 20:50, October 2, 2009

I'm not sure where you're seeing that. The only link I see to "genocide" is in the sidebar, where it is listed as another example of "discrimination". I don't see anything saying the subject of this article is an example of genocide, but maybe I'm missing a link somewhere?—Chowbok ☠ 18:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is Walter Granzka (shot while thiefing by shopkeeper) not listed in the casualty list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.11.157.61 (talk) 03:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup

Just wanted to note that I'm doing a fair amount of cleanup to the article which mostly is removing the numerous unsourced statements as well as doing some grammatical fixes. Cat-five - talk 01:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Ernest Roquemore

At the bottom of the list of deceased, it states that Ernest Roquemore was "hit in the back" by a paratrooper and declared dead on arrival at the hospital. Does "hit" mean struck or shot, because I find it unlikely that a punch or a kick in the back could kill someone. If it means does mean "shot", then the word "hit" should be replaced. --Mindblast101 (talk) 06:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Riot or Insurrection?/Draft Riots

I did a couple of edits regarding the name of this disturbance. Though usually this is called a riot, some refer to it as an insurrection. One might argue that since the majority of people in power were/are Caucasian, calling it a riot might be inappropriate, though perhaps not intentionally discriminatory. Many African-Americans thought and still think the events were justified, given the long history of oppression and violence directed at those of African descent in the U.S...Also, made an edit correcting what I see as an error. The 1967 riot/insurrection in Detroit was not as bad as the disturbance in the NYC Draft Riots during the Civil War. The Draft Riots (or "Insurrections") were perpetrated by Caucasians, with many African-Americans ("Negros") as victims. Later, the LA riots ("Insurrections (?) in the '90s surpassed the number of deaths in the '67 Detroit disturbances, but were still not as bad as the NYC Draft Riots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobledeegooke (talk • contribs) 02:51, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.annarborpaper.com/content/issuev2i12/plamondon_v2i12.html
  • In 1967 Detroit riot on 2011-05-25 03:58:12, 404 Not Found
  • In 1967 Detroit riot on 2011-06-06 13:32:28, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 13:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—204.38.90.193 (talk) 15:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC) yall dont know me but i am cwood

Lead should have comment on race aspect

To someone totally unfamiliar with the riot, it reads a bit funny when the lead has nothing on the riots having a race aspect. It's starts off as maybe being a pub-goer-riot but in section two and onwards everyones skin colour is mentioned. Not until you get to the "social conditions" you start to see the 'why' and 'who'. Swooch (talk) 12:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Surely someone can clarify it a bit? Anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swooch (talk • contribs) 13:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Documentation

Citations rely heavily on Fine's 1989 book. There were other studies of Detroit and the riots, and editors should try to include more sources for such a major disturbance. Parkwells (talk) 17:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

List of dead?

Maybe the list of dead should be attached as a page to this article. Parkwells (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)