Talk:AIDS denialism

Milikguay (talk · contribs) edits

This is getting frustrating. The editor keeps bringing the same poorly sourced commentary, synthesizes new conclusions, and makes rash edits. This has been discussed for a couple of weeks, and we're not getting anywhere. There is no consensus to use unreliable sources to make those edits, in fact, there is a strong consensus that the edits are not acceptable. All we get is strawman arguments about Ph.D.'s in virology, employees of the CDC and FDA, or Americans (gulp, Americans???? Didn't a French team find the HIV virus?). This is tendentious editing. If Milikquay as something to bring that we can all agree is notable, reliable, and informative, then bring it. But these pathetically unreliable sources....stop. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:04, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi! Well, if you refer, Orange, to that previous discussion... Yes, alright. My fault. The only thing happening is that, sometimes, I can't understand some criteria used. I always asked from the elder editors of this page to create a list of which sources can we consider "good ones" and which others "bad ones"...

Anyway, now I'm presenting new info. Is something presented by the denialists. Is Etienne de Harven's position of HIV as an HERV. It was published last year and caused some disrupt among them, specially with the Perth Group. The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons presented it. Well, they are not the most reliable source of the world, but it is a somehow acceptable source from the denialist guys. We should remember that is quite difficult to find published works/hypothesis from them, so even if it was presented by the jpands, not the brightest peer reviewed publication, makes it a little bit more respectable than what's usual.

What I'm intending to add in the "history" section of the article is Etienne de Harven's hypo, presented by the jpands last year. De Harven is one of the few known scientists of the denialist world (he is a pioneer in retrovirus research, worked alongside Charlotte Friend and many of his investigations were published by the National Institutes of Health), and he states that HIV, rather than an exogenous virus, could be an non-pathogenous-by-itself HERV (human endogenous retroviruses), according to the available data. Besides, his name should be included between the denialist community, as he is the president of Rethinking AIDS nowadays...

By the way, in that paragraph related to Lynn Margulis, well, three points into the brackets are missing. Greetings from Edinburgh. Milikguay (talk) 19:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is a discredited journal that hardly qualifies as a reliable source; the journal's sole purpose is to push a right wing agenda, including publishing AIDS denialism.. Don't even try to use it, unless you get consensus. Speaking of which, stating "what I'm intending to add.." implies that you still don't understand or appreciate WP:CONSENSUS. You seem to think that putting a statement here, that gives you permission to put in the AIDS denialism POV. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

If de Harven is such an important role in the denialist community, there should be plenty of actual RS that document so. We should not and cannot rely on poor sources such as JPandS. Yobol (talk) 03:42, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Milikguay, it would really help if when you're not sure if a source meets Wikipedia criteria that you post in an article's talk page before you add information from it. When it comes to controversial articles such as this one, it would be helpful if you discussed any changes you plan to make (beyond grammar/spelling) on the talk page before you edit the article. To be really straight with you, if you keep trying to force things into the article without discussion it is likely that non of what you contribute will stick. I know you feel passionate about this subject and I hope that you can find a way to contribute, but you have to follow the proper channels. Noformation (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the advises, guys. I'll try to learn from you and do my best. I think we should accept De Harven's hypothesis into the "History" section. Is recent, interesting and in the history of the denialism, is important because caused a greater disrupt between denialists groups. I know that the jpands is not the finest source, but is somehow "acceptable" considering that, most of the times, denialists hypos never reach publication not even in the most biased and bizarre scientific magazines nowadays. In French Wiki, his hypothesis are present in the main article. And we should add his name between "the denialists" as he is the most important european denialist (considering that Duesberg lives in USA). He is the honorary president in Rethinking AIDS, I've just read it. Milikguay (talk) 00:52, 26 May 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milikguay (talk • contribs) 00:50, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Find an acceptable source, and it can go in. JPandS is not acceptable. Certainly if he is such as prominent as you make him out to be, then he will be identified as such by independent reliable sources. What appears in the French wiki is not really of our concern. Yobol (talk) 00:53, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok. I'll try to find something better. But I disagree with you in this point, Yobol: we really should care about the worldwide vision about the subject, as Wiki intends to be a global encyclopedic reference, specially because of this: English is by far the most spoken language worldwide, so the English Wiki Portal should contain a wider spectrum of the matter, not just the American or British vision of this. In Europe, for example, the term of reference is mostly "HIV Denialism" rather than "AIDS Denialism". But I think you've discussed this before, I won't go into that. What I'm just saying is that there are important denialists in Europe, too, not just in America. Etienne de Harven is one of them. Anyway, I'll look forward for best information. Greetings from Edinburgh. Milikguay (talk) 22:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? AIDS denialism is rejected in Europe and Asia too. You look at it from a Euro point of view and think that somehow Euros have miraculously discovered that AIDS is not caused by HIV? That is blatantly untrue. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

AIDS denialism has been exported to other countries too. With tragic results. bobrayner (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

This is a horseshit waste of time. AIDS denialism is simple quackery and rank nonsense. There is essentially no evidence that can be presented to support it without massive change in the research community's understanding of AIDS, which is unlikely given how damned successful it has been. Until that unlikely event happens, we should only treat AIDS denialism as a discredited fringe theory with no weight in the scholarly community, promoted only by the ignorant, malicious or ideologically lost. We should not encourage Milkguay to edit the page with anything but a critical eye. It wastes our time and will do nothing but prolong a worthless discussion. Milkguay, you will not find any credible support for AIDS denialism, and you should not post further on the talk page unless it is to suggest minor changes or to acknowledge information from the scholarly consensus that HIV causes AIDS is missing. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 16:27, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Orange, I don't know what happens in Asia, I'll investigate it as soon as I can. But in Europe there are some appraisements about HIV AIDS. Look for the statements of the Euro Parliament, at Strasbourg, what thinks most recently the Italian, Russian and Low Countries Parliaments about it, the Göttingen Trial at Germany... Look for that by yourself, if you like. And if you can't find that, let me know and I'll give you some links ('cause sometimes is hard to find this kind of AIDS-related news in the web, so weird).

WLU, science was never about consensus. Never. The only moment when I really get pissed off is when you use that word "consensus" or "scientific consensus". Consensus is where science goes to die. Consensus is what kept Galileo in prison. Consensus is what prevented Isaac Newton for more than 25 years to publish his Principia Mathematica, consensus discredited Ignaz Semmelweis even if he was right. And even if Wiki is based on "consensus" and that, please, if I can ask you a favor, let's try to avoid that word "consensus" in such an important matter as HIV-AIDS. If you don't like my links, my editings; if you don't mind to take just a single minute of your time to think about them, regardless of your POV or "wiki shields", great! (now someone will accuse me of vandalism or something related), but please, stop using that dreadful word for science "consensus". By the way, in my euro mind, the idea of success is quite different... If the world's governments invested trillions of dollars and euros (the greatest science investment ever) during the last 30 years in this hypothesis of a deadly virus and not a single patient can be oficially considered "cured" of AIDS by traditional medication, not a single vaccine proved to be effective, we all know that the famous "german patients" were more like medical miracles rather than a scientific achievement; not a single scientist from the "consensus" can explain correctly and undeniably the pathology, aetiology of HIV, no one knows exactly what this virus does to the cells... My euro mind can't process that concept of "success"

The only thing I've asked is to add Etienne de Harven's name among the denialists as he is the most important one from Europe, he was president of Rethinking AIDS! You just have to write his name in the Browser of Google and you will know... Anyway, excuse me all of you if I'm so... Disturbing... Greetings from Edinburgh. Milikguay (talk) 02:04, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"Consensus is business of politics [...] Science requires only one investigator who happens to be right [...] In science, consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible and UNDENIABLE results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus" Michael Crichton, MD, writer. (If Seth Kalichman can be quoted, why not with Crichton). Greetings from Edinburgh. Milikguay (talk) 02:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe because Crichton never, you know, did any science? You might as well quote Dan Brown as an authority on art history. MastCell ^Talk 03:29, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

You continue to talk about these dark mysteries and conspiracies. Maybe Dan Brown is an appropriate authority for this story too. So, let's look at your logic. Something is wrong with the HIV theory because we can't cure AIDS. I'm sorry, but we can't cure a bunch of diseases. Herpes zoster can't be cured. So I guess Varicella zoster, the virus that causes it, cannot possibly be the cause of it. Google isn't a reliable source. Oh wait, you haven't provided a single reliable source. None. This conversation is silly. Time to shut it down? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Close it. This is going no where. This always goes no where. N^oformation ^Talk 05:13, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Who has the superpower ring to close it? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, Orange, there is a difference between Herpes Zoster and AIDS. Viral relation is UNDENIABLE in the first one, no one challenges it because truth jumps itself. The second one... Well, by scientific consensus is a retrovirus related disease. They don't know what does this piece of RNA do to the CD4 lymphocytes, but they are quite sure it destroys them. Consensus, buddy!!. Don't know how, but it does. How funny, they cannot UNDENIABLY prove this, but HIV causes AIDS. You know, even before the discovery and characterization of HIV Reverse Transcriptase (http://www.rcsb.org/pdb/explore/explore.do?structureId=1HMV) in 1994-1995, scientific consensus KNEW that it was a retrovirus disease (Gallo made his famous press conference in 1984, if my scot mind fails not). Consensus, buddy!

Another difference between HZ and AIDS... Well... Electron Microscopy! Around the web you can find several photographs, claimed to be HIV. But, can you give me a link which contains the abstracts, methods and procedures and conditions of the taken EM's of HIV?? You know, PURE electron micrographs, without cutie computer corrections and graphics. Can you link me one, please, with the full abstract, methods and procedures, the budding environment, the laboratory where the EMs were taken, the electron microscopist/microscopists who took the photograph, the media conditions of the EM and the reproduced/reproducible results?? (Reliable peer reviewed sources, please, and they must fulfill those conditions I've given). According Discovery Health Magazine (spanish version, obviously, because in English is quite impossible to find this) "no one EVER took a reliable EM of HIV" (http://www.dsalud.com/index.php?pagina=sumario_136). I think there was a related french article too, I'll look for it.

Please, don't try to fool me about that, I'm a Chemical Engineer, phD in Biotech (I don't have a reliable source to prove that. Maybe my Facebook account, If you like, let me know, we can have nice chats about science and pseudoscience). And about my logic, please, success by saving no one after spending trillions of dollars, that's something beyond logic, mate. Leads us to the third difference between Herpes Zoster and AIDS: as far as I know, no one died because of the first illness, while the second one claims 35 million DEATHS 'til this date and we don't even know the pathology and aetiology of HIV (if any)... Success?? Consensus!!

MastCell, Crichton never did science. Did Kalichman?? Why Kalichman can be REFERENCED here, in the main article, while you mock about a little quotiation from Crichton?? Wait, I know... Consensus!! I don't like Dan Brown's works. ¿Do you?. I prefer Marcel Proust. I've learnt french with his masterpieces.

The only thing I've asked from you all is to add Etienne de Harven's name among the Denialist community. I gave you good reasons and sources, there are plenty of them in the web. In my humble opinion, no need for a peer reviewed source, as this is something quite biographical. I'm not talking about De Harven's discoveries or anything like that, just his link to AIDS denialism. Greetings from Edinburgh. Milikguay (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

If we're going to continue this discussion, it needs to be based on reality. HIV reverse transcriptase was sequenced and characterized in the mid-1980s, shortly after the discovery of HIV (PMID 2418504, PMID 2423366, PMID 2430111, etc). I don't know why you assert (authoritatively but incorrectly) that it was not "discovered" until 1995. Does it bother you that your basic assertions are incorrect? This error seems to undercut a lot of your subsequent reasoning.

I'm not familiar with "Discovery Health" magazine, but a quick glance leads me to believe that it's a cross between the National Enquirer and a late-night vitamin infomercial. In other words, not exactly in the same league as the sort of sources you're demanding from us. Why the double standard?

If you think that AIDS research has been fruitless, then I don't think you know anyone with HIV/AIDS. The differences between the disease course in 1985 and the disease course today are a testament to the success of the research investment. Usually AIDS denialists avoid that argument, or else they focus solely on AZT and ignore everything that's been done with protease inhibitors and combination antiretroviral therapy in the past 15 years. Malaria has been understood and studied for far longer than HIV/AIDS, and yet it still causes millions of deaths every year and a vaccine (or even reliable treatments) remain elusive. By your logic, Plasmodium must not be the cause of the disease, right?

Kalichman is a social scientist. He works in that capacity for a major university. Crichton was a novelist with a good imagination and an ability to write page-turning if technically unimpressive prose. One is a legitimate authority on AIDS denialism and one is not; I'll leave it to you to work out which is which. MastCell ^Talk 21:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Milikguay, I took up your 13th June invitation to look up the Göttingen Trial, and found the wikipedia article you wrote on 15th June. I don't think that its references (French and Spanish language AIDS denialist blogs and youtube videos by Stefan Lanka) meet wikipedia's reliable sources criteria, and furthermore the article appears to be grossly inaccurate. For example, your article reports that "the court decided to sentence Gunther Ekkart as innocent", whereas according to the German national daily Die Welt 24th June 1997, Eckert (spelling) was found guilty and sentenced to six and a half years' prison. (See: "Geiz im Labor hatte tödliche Folgen"). Similarly, the article's claims that "German government censored any kind of public information available about this trial. Though many activists and AIDS Denialism groups requested public share of the information, until this date full data remains secret." This does not appear to be accurate, as this case appears to have been extensively covered in the German and international media. On A Leash (talk) 14:35, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Denialism research

Hello. I found this in researching cognitive linguistic analyses of health care issues. Not sure if this is relevant here or somewhere else:

• Link. How the growth of denialism undermines public health [1] BMJ 2010; 341:c6950 doi: 10.1136/bmj.c6950 (Published 14 December 2010)

Lam Kin Keung (talk) 03:48, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Among denialists there has recently been a schism, in which the Perth Group has distanced itself from ReThinking AIDS.

Is this worth covering in this wikipedia entry? Briancady413 (talk) 19:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-christine-maggiore24-2005sep24,0,7927684.story
  • In Eliza Jane Scovill on 2011-03-18 03:18:57, 404 Not Found
  • In AIDS denialism on 2011-06-20 00:34:04, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The LA Times article "A Mother's Denial, a Daughter's Death" is currently available here:

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/sep/24/local/me-eliza24

Perhaps one of the more experienced editors could fix the link in both articles.On A Leash (talk) 02:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Former Aids Denialists

Under the Former Denialists section, it states: "Walter Gilbert, winner of the 1980 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, once expressed skepticism about the role of HIV in AIDS. Like Sonnabend, he has since changed his mind in response to the effectiveness of antiretroviral treatment." This is supported only by an internal citation to a blogspot, this is blatantly in violation of WP:BLP as a blog is certainly not a reliable source especially to such a debatable claim.--Jacksoncw (talk) 17:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I have been told that virusmyth.com is not a reliable source, meaning that another large chunk of this section should be removed.--Jacksoncw (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:RS, "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves"... We can cite someone's published article on virusmyth.com for the opinions of that author as well as the content and editorial focus of virusmyth.com. The other paragraph you deleted had nothing to do with virusmyth. — Scientizzle 17:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

agree with Scientizzle. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Calling people "Denialists" just sounds like schoolyard name-calling to me, and not particularly helpful IMHO. Create an insulting term, (ab)use it as a put down, and throw it around here and there.. Zarkme (talk) 10:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion, and mine, are unimportant. What is important is sourcing. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck that is the perfect quote summing up the philosophy of wikipedia. It should be etched into the top of every talk page. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck, yep that makes sense to me. This page exists to explain the state of things as they are, not how we believe they should be or how they could be improved Zarkme (talk) 00:48, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

David Rasnick

I am curious about what people have to debunk the many unusual assertions that David makes here. eg:

• that retroviruses (such as AIDS) aren't sexually transmitted
• he seems to be saying that HIV counts go up as a result of the immune function declining (progression of AIDS), rather than HIV being the cause. He reckons the cause of AIDS is something else like drug use messing up the immune system
• says that the HIV tests are very inaccurate, with lots of false negatives and false positives. ie. that you can retake the test again and again until you get the result you want
• .. and any other interesting claims I missed?

Very interested to hear info both for and against - no juvenile flaming please. Zarkme (talk) 10:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:42, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Our article contains several links that outline AIDS-denialist claims (like those you list) and explains why they're incorrect and misguided. You might find that those sources help answer your questions. As Harizotoh9 mentioned, this talk page isn't the place for us to debate the claims (see the talk page guidelines for more). MastCell ^Talk 18:35, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

scientific reference of HIV AIDS

Dr Karry Mullis, virologist has never found one scientific reference to back up the origonal discovery of HIV. Can anyone explain this. There is a financial reward for anyone who can find just one scientific reference for the discovery of HIV. Normally a virus would have many confirmations. Why is HIV an exception. Anyone explain. We would benefit from scientists who actually believe in replying first. Please be honest with any vested interest. I am interested in the facts: not humbug from either the scentific mainstream, or the complimentary sector. Just honest science please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.212.176 (talk) 18:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Dr Harold Manners was concerned that HIV is sexually transmissable is entirely false statement that he conducted an experiment on television with doctors monitoring the whole thing to disprove this. He allowed himself to be injected with a syringe full of blood from a confirmed HIV positive patient. He did it more than onece and he failed to develop AIDS. Now a syringe full directly into the bloodstream has to be more succesful way of contracting HIV than having sex? So why no symptons, ever? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.212.176 (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Dr Harold Manners is best known for his promotion during the 1970s of laetrile for the treatment of various cancers. The wikipedia article on this nostrum describes laetrile as "ineffective, dangerously toxic due to its cyanide content, and potentially lethal.[4][5][6][7][8] The promotion of laetrile to treat cancer has been described in the medical literature as a canonical example of quackery,[9][10][11] and as "the slickest, most sophisticated, and certainly the most remunerative cancer quack promotion in medical history."

I was unaware that Dr Manners ever claimed to have conducted any experiments on HIV's transmissibility - on TV or elsewhere. Could you provide a reference for this assertion, please? On A Leash (talk) 05:54, 7 January 2012 (UTC)