Talk:Ahmadiyya

Ahmadis in India

Kerala(Malabar) has lot of Ahmediyyas and Ahmedi Jama Ath's are often Situated away from different Masjids of various Sunni Groups. However, large number of heretics(sunni,shia) reverted to Ahmediya after knowing the secular study of Ahmediya History. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.2.127 (talk) 14:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

POV and references

While the beginning is certainly well-written, it seems to be pushing an excessively divine view of the faith. Also, I don't really see many references cited for that huge beginning. --Enzuru 00:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me but did Mirza Ghulam Ahmed not die in the public toilets of Lahore or is this a rumour spread by Lahori Jamaat to smear the Qadianis? I am wondering why the circumstances of his death are not included in the article to shed light on this matter. Can someone clarify please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moarrikh (talk • contribs) 12:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think it was the public toilets, though we all know how he did die. Why don't we check their website for some information?

Information about M G Ahmad's death in present in the main article about him: Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad#Death, and in greater detail in Death of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a page dedicated to the circumstances around his death. Nazli (talk) 02:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is it is shallow and "unspiritual" to make an issue of whether he died in a toilet.Best wishes,Rich (talk) 19:16, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Ahmadis are not Muslims as they are declared non-muslims by all muslims throughout the world, but they are throughout written as Muslims in this article, which is mis-guiding to many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.250.72 (talk) 12:49, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

They refer to themselves as Muslims, so wikipedia takes them at their word. A lot of Christians don't think Mormons qualify either, so there you go. 76.255.29.99 (talk) 02:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Persewhat?

No other faith on Wikipedia has information about its persecution before its actual beliefs, and in fact has such a large percentage of its article dedicated to its persecution. This needs to be fixed. --Enzuru 01:01, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

did some fixing up - needs much more. Nazli (talk) 07:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm!

Do we have some kind of plan of attack to address the Ahmadi articles are or we taking on issues as they come? --Enzuru 23:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

All the articles clearly need an overhaul - a clearly spelled out review/edit policy be a good idea to give all parties concerned a heads up. Wish I had more free time to devote to this...Nazli (talk) 02:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest something like the Shi'a Islam Task Force (or whatever we're called) but it'd probably only be composed of you and the Ahmadi-of-the-months who contribute then disappear forever. --Enzuru 17:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Aptly stated!! Nazli (talk) 02:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Contenious line in 'Who is a Muslim':

I constantly have removed a line from the 'Who is a Muslim' in the 'Comparisons' section. The line states that for an Ahmadi anybody who does not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a 'kafir' even if they have never heard of him. Not only is the quotation being given a ulterior nature, but also its being taken out of context. The whole chapter is actually mocking the concept, which at the time of writing was a very common view. Many Muslims in the sub-continent believed that no matter if you have heard of Prophet Muhammed or not you are a 'kafir' if you do not accept him. Also this concept was further clarified by Mirza Tahir Ahmed the 4th Caliph of the Jamaat, who stated that a kafir is one who deliberately rejects the message of God after he/she has received it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.97.28 (talk) 08:58, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

The quote states in clear unambiguous terms, Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad's opinion. I fail to see how it is out of context.Nazli (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Like said Mirza Tahir Ahmad explained it in very clear terms that a Muslim not believing in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a non-Ahmadi Muslim, not a Non-Muslim. Believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is not essential to be considered a Muslim. Here is the reference therefore the whole 'Who is a Muslim' in the Comparison section is false information. http://www.askislam.org/religions_and_beliefs/islam/sects/question_263.html. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.50.71 (talk) 14:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the link, but please see the old discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ahmadi/Archive_2#Mirza_Mahmud_used_the_term_.22outside_the_pale_of_Islam.22... Nazli (talk) 05:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, I can't seem to find the Mirza Tahir's opinion in written form. Could you please give a link for that, thank you. Nazli (talk) 06:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

By Usman Khan I changed the article Ahmadiyya from "Differs, but often considered an apostate. Many mainstream Muslims believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was one of the 30 false claimants to prophethood about whom the prophet Muhammad warned Muslims 1400 years ago." to " Mainstream Muslims considers him an apostate. Mainstream Muslims believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was one of the 30 false claimants to prophethood about whom the prophet Muhammad warned Muslims 1400 years ago." as there is not difference among the mainstream Muslim declaring him apostate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Usmankhan15 (talk • contribs) 07:54, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Ahmadiyya in origin Sunni, Shi'a, or neither?

If Mirza Ghulam Ahmed was raised in a recognized branch of Islam, such as Sunni, for example, the article should say so. Thanks.Rich (talk) 03:55, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

According to my understanding, the Ahmadiyya is neither Sunni or Shia, but is most closely reOlated to Sunni Islam.Peaceworld111 (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Can anyone provide documentation for Ahmadiayya's POV reguarding the first four caliphs. This would clear-up thier Sunni vs Shia nature. --Smulthaup (talk) 02:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It is closest to Sunni origin as it does believe in the four "Rightly Guided Caliphs" as opposed to the Shi'a who only believe in Ali (ra) and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as), if you group Muslims in only those 2 categories, could have been classified as a Sunni before the establishment of the Ahmadiyya Movement. Jedi Master MIK (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Missing name

I'm missing the name 'Hadayatulla Huebsch' in the 'Promoinent Ahmadi' section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.191.4 (talk) 14:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The intent of Jesus in this section is innacurate

" ....just as Jesus Christ came principally to reform the hearts and attitudes of the Jewish nation.[24]"

This statement is false. Jesus complained about some influential priests in the Holy of Holies as corrupt and some people not respecting Jewish Torah. He also was one of many Jews revolting against the Roman occupiers.

Please correct. Thank you. Thomasbraun321 (talk) 19:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Persecution

In the aftermath of the Ahmadiyya massacre in Pakistan, we need to discuss the right of the majority to impose its will on minorities in all countries especially Islamic countries. In countries such as Saudi Arabia, there is no religious minority or they are subjugated and it a pity that the world opinion stays silent on this. This aspect needs to be discussed in public and UN be involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.195.196 (talk) 17:11, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Prominent Ahmadis Segregation

Hi, looking at the shape of the article, given the divide in beliefs, leadership etc, would it not be prudent to separate the prominent Lahoris from the Ahmadis. I only say this for clarity and objectivity when looking at the two groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.80.95 (talk) 17:45, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Further to my previous post, I have tried to separate them out, however I am having trouble with sourcing much of the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam members as being Lahoris as oppose to Ahmadis. Perhaps someone could clarify which are which. Many thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.129.124 (talk) 10:07, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Only allow registered users to update content

Three pages this, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are vandalized a lot. What is the process to require only registered users access to update this content. Every day I login to see same vandalism (it is not even creative) and I have to undo edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saad.ahmad (talk • contribs) 02:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

You need to go here and file a request: Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Given the sensitivity of the issue, I imagine that if you can provide clear statistics as to how frequently vandalism occurs, you may be able to make a strong case. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Two new Ahmadi categories: "persecution" and "by country"

Please note I've created and categorised two new categories: Category:Persecution of Ahmadiyya and Category:Ahmadiyya by country. Any help populating these categories would be appreciated. MatthewVanitas (talk) 09:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

thanks. Useful.Peaceworld111 (talk) 14:27, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Total number of Lahoris?

Hi, I noticed there is reference to a "claim to have tens of millions" members of the Ahmadi branch, what about the Lahori Branch?

I have not found any claim by the Lahori Branch for any numbers. Looking at their income in the UK its around £8,000 [Charity Commision UK ] which would suggest in the UK at least a minimal presence. Just for comparison the Ahmadiyya Branch has a growing income of just over £10,000,000 [Charity Commission UK ] and they have a claimed UK membership of around 15,000-20,000.

Some input on this would be helpful.

Many thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.70.106 (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

...assuming that both branches have similar average donations, then the total number of the Lahori branch is in the UK is 16 (£10,000,000/20,000 (people) = £500 average Ahmadi Branch donation therefore... £8000/£500 (average Ahmadi Branch donation) = 16. This is on the figure is based on their being 20,000 Ahmadi Branch members in the UK, if there 15,000 then equivalent number of Lahori Branch members drops to 12! Does this comparison replicate itself internationally? Do Lahori Branch members commit at the similar levels to Ahmadi branch? I'm confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.70.106 (talk) 02:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

See Lahore_Ahmadiyya_Movement_for_the_Propagation_of_Islam#DemographicsPeaceworld111 (talk) 14:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Changing the intro to a NPOV

Dear sirs. Most of the Ahmadiyya sources claim to be a religious movement, therefore, the first sentence intro is phrased to say that the movement is following Islam "bring about the final triumph of Islam as per Islamic prophecy". Regarding this phrase and the following reliable source talks about the claims that were not identified by other Islamic branches. My suggestion is to replace "Islamic religious movement" to "religious movement" to better fit the rest of the sentence. The sentence already mentions that they're fulfilling Islam, so this does not offence any believer. Please comment here before reverting. PEACE! AdvertAdam ^talk 09:09, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Adam, I didn't realize that you posted this comment here, anyways Wikipedia doesn't take into account whether some article brings offence to any one, if it did then there'll lots issues all over Wikipedia, particularly Islam-related articles. It gives priority to reliable sources and as far as I'm aware most if not all reliable sources do identify Ahmadiyya as an Islamic movement. Moreover since it is a religious community, it is enough for them to identify themselves as Islamic for Wikipedia to refer to them as Islamic. Thanks!--Peaceworld 08:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Divisions amongst Ahmadiyya section needed

We should include a section on the divisions within Ahmadiyya, specifically the Lahori community, Qadian-based community, Anwar-Ul Islam Movement, Jamaat Ahmadiyya al-Mouslemeen, Jamaat Ul-Sahih Al-Islam, Green Ahmadiyya, Jamaat Ahmadiyya Islah Pasand, and the Al-Ahmadiyya sect. — Preceding signed comment added by Farhan000 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Any reliable secondary sources available to show the existence of other communities but the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community and the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement? --Peaceworld 08:09, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, several. In specific, their websites and documented videos: Anwar-Ul Islam Movement, Jamaat Ahmadiyya al-Mouslemeen, Jamaat Ul Sahih Al Islam, Green Ahmadiyya, Al-Ahmadiyya Movement, and the Haqiqat Pasand Party. The last is now defunct, but the others have active running websites, http://www.anwarulislam.com/, http://jaam-international.org/, http://www.jamaat-ul-sahih-al-islam.com/, http://greenahmadiyyat.org/ and http://al-ahmadiyyat.com/, respectively. I know that the Jamaat Ahmadiyya Islah Pasand held their first convention recently and documented the presentations, but I am not familiar with any central website they run. I'll try to write up something soon. Farhan000 (talk) 20:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry maybe you didn't get me, I requested for independent and secondary sources that are also reliable, not their individual sites. As a matter of opinion I am not doubting their existence though. To speed the matters up, blog/forum references cannot be in general trusted as reliable.--Peaceworld 20:54, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I just checked the Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources page. Regarding primary sources, it says "they must be used with caution". Considering this is an esoteric topic to begin with, with few if any secondary sources documenting other subgroups, it seems appropriate to at least cite these groups and their websites, but not necessary engage in original research. Farhan000 (talk) 06:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes primary sources cannot be used but with "caution" but this is far too generic to consider here and the issue is completely different. I think the main issue is WP:NOTE; there are no reliable and independent sources verifying the existence of such communities, hence they lack notability. Another issue here is that these communities, if they exist are very small even compared to the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement, which in itself is a very small community compared to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community hence citing their individual names/sites will give undue weight to such groups. I see you opened another discussion over the Talk:Islam article some time ago. Notice that it only mentions significant minorities and not all the possible minorities there are/could be in the world. As a final note though, I think that the Lahore Ahmadiyya movement is over represented here, so some work needs to be done dumming it down. Thanks! --Peaceworld 15:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

What is Lie (Jhoot) and what is "Maslehatan jhoot bolna"?

Assalamoalaikum! May Allah Almighty keeps all of you in His safe aman. Ameen. Sir, with due respect, I have a question about telling lies and the people who says that "maslehatan jhoot bolna jaiz hai" in special circumstances. please clarify about this and what are the circumstances in which one can lie. Regards MFHR321 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MFHR321 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Unecessary split

The Notable people section was unnecessarily split away to Notable People of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. The split was also malformed, the new list was actually not sourced and the notability of the people added was not demonstrated. Please discuss it before performing the split again. --Muhandes (talk) 10:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)