Talk:Alcuin

Untitled

This article does not mentions Alcuin's birthname. I believe it was Ealhwine (or something of the like), but can anybody confirm that? Oswax 18:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

It was a redirect. Added it to the opening. Variant. --Wetman 21:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Lindisfarne: The viking attack was in June, not July, and in the year 793, not 792. The bishop's name is Higbald, see link: Higbald_of_Lindisfarne. Best regards, Per-Allan Olsson --195.67.183.245 (talk) 15:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Dialogue of Pepin (son of Charlemagne) and Alcuin,

Pepin the Hunchback was Charlemagne's first son. He got his nickname from a spinal deformity causing his back to be hunched. In 792 he was found guilty in a conspiracy to overthrow his father's rule by participating in a coup attempt. He was sentenced to a head shaving and having to spend the rest of life (d.811) in a monastery. The others involved were all sentenced to death.

The latin title is Disputatio Pipini, though the ascription to Alcuin in in dispute, and is now generally held to be erroneous. I wonder if the section on the Disputatio should go altogether, in fact, as nobody now seriously considers it to be Alcuin's? Cursitor 16:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Where, and by whom, has Alcuin's authorship been contested? As recently as 2002, it was generally accepted (e.g. by Guy Halsall in his Humour, History, and Politics in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages, who devoted an entire chapter to the text)...SGilsdorf (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Homosexual love poetry

Someone added several paragraphs arguing that Alcuin was homosexual, citing a poem of his as evidence. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding any other material supporting this elsewhere, and the poem does not actually suggest any relationship with the addressee. I added an 'unreferenced' tag hoping that someone would cite some source(s) for this hypothesis, but none have been forthcoming one week later. I feel the section in question should go, as it appears to be unverifiable and potentially original research. Alcuin 15:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Either way, that section is disproportionately lengthy in relation to the rest of the article, and should probably be cut. Cursitor 16:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In the interests of intellectual honesty, after this entire section was flagged then suppressed, I googled "Alcuin homoerotic" and found a reference at the respected Medieval Sources webnsite, and added a quote from John Boswell. The instinct to suppress unattractive material often leads to disreputable conduct. The rest of this article lacks the depth this subject requires. With a less flimsy, more extensive context, the homosexuality will become less prominent. --Wetman 21:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who deleted it - I've got nothing against adding material that is well-sourced. I started trying to just edit out or tag the unsourced material, but then realized the whole section had been tagged for months without anyone working on it, and assumed there was just a lack of interest. There is still a tag for a quote that needs a cite, and I hope someone will track that down (because it should be deleted otherwise). I agree that any disparity between space devoted to the topic and the subject as a whole is the result of the article as a whole being woefully inadequate -- this could be a major article. Sam 21:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I have added a sentence covering homo-erotic poetry - this isn't original research but is covered in mainstream academic literature (have added a couple of references). I'm not sure there is more direct evidence (from contemporary sources) that can be added to support the thesis of Alcuin's homosexuality. Passionate letter-writing and poetry was common in the high middle ages, but Boswell (among others) have suggested that the tone in Alcuin is even more enthusaistic than standard practice. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Homoerotic works by Alcuin:

A letter from Alcuin to Dodo (AKA Cuckoo), a pupil.

To my dearest son, whom I have both lately begotten and swiftly lost, since he has been snatched not yet well suckled from my breasts. A crueller stepdame, the flesh, has snatched him through the vortices of lust from my paternal lap. Alas, what shall I do, but weep my dying one, in the chance that perhaps by the fomentations of scalding tears he may yet be resurrected. As your name asks, I give; but give to me: All of myself I give you, give thus to me.

Alcuin is deeply saddened by Cuckoo's departure:

Woe to me, if Bacchus has drowned my cuckoo, Who loves to snatch young men in his poisonous gyre. If he lives, let him return, run back to the fostering nest, Let not the raven slash him with savage claw. Alas, who seizes you from the nest paternal? He has seized you, seized you. Who knows if you will come? If songs can move you, cuckoo, lo, come quickly, Come quickly, now I pray you, lo, come quickly. Do not delay, while you have strength to hasten, Your youthful Daphnis wishes to have you here. It is time for spring, cuckoo, break your slumber,

"Versus de Cuculo" is replete with similar works from Alcuin. Furthermore, have a look at the fordham medieval site http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/homo-med.html I think it is clear that Alcuin was in fact a homosexual based on his writings, even when considering the medieval style. It is important to know as much as possible about this great scribe's personal life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.193.225 (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Pepin, Charlemagne's son

Charlemagne did have a son named Pepin by a concubine named Himiltrude. He conspired with certain Frankish nobles to depose his father during his war with the Huns. Apparently the plot was uncovered and as punishment he was forced into the monastery at Prüm to live out his life as a holy man. He was also hunchbacked. This is all according to Einhard.

Cupbearer 03:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite true. Pepin is real enough, but the attribution of the Disputatio Pipini to Alcuin is very questionable.

--Cursitor 12:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Astrology

I've never come across this before, and the quotation from Berlinski seems somewhat vague. Does anyone have a primary source for this? --Cursitor 12:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the Penguin translation by Lewis Thorpe, 'Two Lives of Charlemagne', p. 79, Charlemagne’s friend and biographer, Einhard, tells us that, ‘When he was learning the rules of grammar he received tuition from Peter the Deacon of Pisa… but for all other subjects he was taught by Alcuin… the most learned man anywhere to be found. Under him the Emperor spent much time and effort in studying rhetoric, dialectic and especially astrology. He applied himself to mathematics and traced the course of the stars with great attention and care.’But Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology, 1987, p 130 gives ‘astronomia’ and ‘computus’ for Thorpe's ‘astrology’ and ‘mathematics’, translating the passage as follows: Charlemagne ‘gave much time and labour to learning rhetoric and dialaectic, and especially astronomy (astronomia); and tried to learn the art of computus and with great curiosity and concentration sought to understand the course of the stars.’ I imagine Tester is the better source. 86.8.78.86 (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC) Paul Bembridge

Overall, I concur that the latter translation is preferable. The practice of computus (in essence, the calculation of the dates of moveable feasts, principally Easter) and the practice of astronomy are intrinsically linked, the former being based upon a lunar calendar. The article's current suggestion that Alcuin's astrological practice was influenced by 'suppressed' travels to the middle east is, techincally speaking, piffle. Gone. Cursitor (talk) 13:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Alcuin Society

The Alcuin Society, included under external links, apparently has nothing to do with Alcuin except the name. The Society caters to book lovers, not (for example) lovers of Carolingian literature. I believe it detracts from, rather than adding to, the entry. Does anyone else agree, or disagree? Katherine Tredwell 18:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I had actually just had that thought myself before coming to this talkpage. Seeing that the same objection was raised two and a half years ago and no one has responded, I'm going to go ahead and remove the mention. Binabik80 (talk) 21:46, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Punctuation

It is alleged in the book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" (p. 76) that Alcuin created a system of "positure" or punctuation, including an early question mark. -- Beland 02:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Alcuin and the filioque

I've removed the entire section on the "Filioque" from the article. In the first place, it appears to be referencing mostly Spanish Adoptionism, not the Filioque (despite the lines about the "Symbol"). In the second place, I am not sure that it is correctly translated, and in the third place it looks like OR. ECKnibbs 20:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Class change

2008 Frickeg - I notice you've downgraded the article from class B to class C. This might be right; but could you perhaps explain why you thought the article needed this re-grading please? Contaldo80 (talk) 16:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)