Talk:Ancient Mesopotamian units of measurement

Please see ancient weights and measures for previous edit history and discussions wrt this article.

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Removed content

Rktect 8/5/05

Egil, before you continue cleaning up things you apparently know nothing about

Why not take a moment and tell us what you know about the subject?

I would like to see some discussion of standards of measure and the system

they were based on. Why do you object to that?

Why do you think its so much more useful to compare Mesopotamian units to English units or

metric units than the units of their contemporaries such as the Egyptians and immediate

inheritors such as the Greeks and Romans that you would find it necessary to

remove those comparisons from the discussion?

I really don't think you know what's of value and what is not

but feel safer if you can destroy anything you don't understand

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I have removed the following content from the article (between the two horizontal bars, below). Some of it may be of value, but in that case, it really needs to be integrated into the existing article in a proper manner, and with references. -- Egil 15:23, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

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The Greek root of stadios means to stand or have standing, to establish a standard. The problem was that there were several different standards.

• In Mesopotamia there was the sos = 180 m
• In Egypt the khet was 100 royal cubits
• In Egypt 210 khet were an itrw or hour of travel on the river
• In Egypt 300 Royal cubits were the stadia of Eratosthenes = 157.5 m
• 700 to a degree at Alexandria,
• In Egypt 350 Royal cubits were a Minute of March = 183.75 m
• In Egypt 60 Minutes of March were an atur or Hour of March
• In Persia there were stadia of 700 feet = 222 m
• 500 to a degree on the equator or
• This was the geographic stadia of Marianus of Tyre and Ptolomy
• In Attic Greece a Milos was 8 Stadions of 600 pous = 185 m
• 600 to a degree of 111 km
• In Attic Greece a Milos was 8 Stadions of 600 pous = 185 m
• 600 to a degree of 111 km
• In Ionic Greece a Milos was 8 Stadions of 625 pous = 185 m
• 600 to a degree to a degree of 111 km
• In Rome a Milliare of 8 Stadiums of 625 pes = 185 m
• 600 to a degree to a degree of 111 km
• In England a Myle of 8 Furlongs of 625 fote = 185 m
• 600 to a degree to a degree of 111 km

Sumerian lengths

As a collection of city states organized like the Greeks by gene, oinkos and phratre the Sumerians had a plethora of multiple standards. All stated values are in precise unit fractions of a common standard.

Unit	Measure	Definition	Size
digit, finger
šusi	little finger	3/4 uban	15 mm
shusi	ring finger	5/6 uban	16.67 mm
sheshi	index finger		17.67 mm
uban	thumb		20 mm
ell
šusi ell	short ell	3 šusi	45 mm
shusi ell	median ell	3 shusi	50 mm
sheshi ell	long ell	3 sheshi	53 mm
uban ell	thumb-ell	3 uban	60 mm
	18 shusi = 15 uban
palm
šusi palm	short palm	4 šusi	60 mm
shusi palm	median palm	4 shusi	67 mm
sheshi palm	long palm	4 sheshi	71 mm
uban palm	thumb-palm	4 uban	80 mm
	24 shusi = 20 uban
hand, qat
šusi qat	short hand	5 šusi	75 mm
shusi qat	median hand	5 shusi	84 mm
sheshi qat	long hand	5 sheshi	88 mm
uban qat	thumb-hand	5 uban	100 mm
	30 shusi = 25 uban
fist
šusi fist	short fist	6 šusi	90 mm
shusi fist	median fist	6 shusi	100 mm
sheshi fist	long fist	6 sheshi	106 mm
uban fist	thumb-fist	6 uban	120 mm
	36 shusi = 30 uban
span
šu-dù-a	span (‘hands’ + ‘to stack’)	10 šusi	150 mm
zipaþ	span	10 shusi	167 mm
zapaþ šu.bad	span	10 sheshi	176 mm
zipaþ	span	10 uban	200 mm
quarter (span of outstretched thumb and little finger)
ñušur	shaftment	15 šusi	220.5 mm
šu-dù-a	shaftment	12 shusi	250 mm
foot
ñušur	foot	20 šusi	300 mm
šu-dù-a	foot
18 shusi		≈ 304.8 mm
18½ shusi	≈ 308.4 mm
ñiš	tool rod	17 sheshi	300 mm
ñìri	foot	15 uban = 3 gat = ½ cubit	300 mm
cubit
ku	ordinary cubit	30 shusi= 25 uban= 6 ordinary qat= 5 long qat	500 mm
kus	cubit	36 shusi = 30 uban	600 mm
kùš	‘hand’ + ‘arm’
hand and forearm, as a unit of measurement, ell/cubit
šu-da	ell/cubit	2 gat of a cubit of 5 gat divided into 30 shusi
double remen
ñìr	step; way, path	60 shusi = 50 uban	= 1 m
kùš-numun		2 ñiš-bad	= 1 m
ñidri+ uru9	‘support’; úr, ‘leg(s)’; pace		= 1.5 m
ñìri…gub	to step on ‘foot’ + ‘to stand’		= 3 m
qanu		6 ammat	= 3.6 m
še ñiš-è-a	‘grain’ + ‘stick’ + ‘to exit from’ + nominative	harvested grain that has just been threshed and only roughly measured with a stick
gi	reed (circular + to sprout)	6 cubits	= 3 m
éše, éš[šè]	rope; measuring tape/cord	10 nindan rods = 20 reeds = 120 cubits
Area measure square roots
side of the ordinary iku		60 ordinary kù	30 m
side of the ordinary iku		60 qanu = 1/6 sos
side of the great iku		60 qanu	36 m
Other
sos		= 360 ganu	≈ 180 m
parasang		= 30 sos	≈ 5.4 km
kapsu		= 2 parasang	≈ 10.8 km

Sumerian area measure

• 1 uzalag
• 1 uzalak: = 1/4 of an iku = 25 sar
• 1 še: barley; grain; = 432 square linear barleycorns = 12 square uban
• 1 ubu : = 1/2 of an iku (= 50 sar).
• 1 sar:
• 1 šar: 'garden plot' = 1 square ninda
• 1 square ninda = 60 surface shekels = 1/100 iku
• 1 square ninda = 4 square reeds = 144 square cubits
• 1 iku: = 3600 meters2 = 100 sar = 1 square 'rope' = 1/18 bùr
• (plural Akk. form of ég, ék, 'levee').
• 1 éše, = 120 1/2 cubits or feet = the side of 1 square iku in area
• éš[ŠÈ]: = 6 iku; leash (can be an adverbial suffix like eš)
• (eš, 'much', + eš, 'much') [ŠE3 archaic frequency: 152].
• nindan,
• ninda: rod = 12 cubits (kùš) = 6 meters; one side of a sar
• šar, 'garden plot' square measure
• from Akk. middatu, mindatu, 'to measure'

Sumerian volume measure

• 1 gur = 1 square ninda times 1 kùš = 144 kùš3
• 1 gur = 18 cubic meters
• 1 bariga = 60 gur PI or UL in Old Sumerian period
• 1 bariga = 36 sìla in the Old Sumerian period
• 1 bán-rig-a = 6 bán. 'the bán from picking, gleaning'
• 1 èše: = 6 iku.
• 1 bùr: = 18 iku = 3 éše = 1800 sar
• the amount of land that supported a family
• 1 bùru from Akkadian buuru IV, "hunger",
• bii/eeru IV, "space, distance"
• gána, gán: tract of land, field parcel;
• (flat) surface, plane; measure of surface; shape, outline;
• cultivation = iku = gan- field" GAN2
• 1 ma-na-tur: little mina = 1/3 shekel = 60 surface še = 720 square uban
• 1 a-ñá-ri-in: a flat area measured in sar
• 1 ñarim
• 1 A-ñar:
• 1 e5-ñar
• 1 gín-tur: little shekel = 1/60 shekel = 1/3600 square nindan
• 1 sar = 3 surface še = 36 square fingers
• 1 sar = surface of the side of a cube of 1 sìla capacity.

Akkadian length

• 1 ŠU.BAD: 'open hand' = 12 šusi = 220 mm = 8.66"
• 1 ammat cubit of 530 mm - 20.87 a unit of wheat or barley measure
• 1 ammatu := 6 long qat= 600 mm
• 1 ÑIŠ-BAD: =1 kùš. 600 mm
• 1 UŠ: = 6 ropes = 60 nindan rods.

Akkadian area

• 2 AŠ: = 1/2 of an iku (= 50 sar).
• 1 iku: = 3600 meters2 = 100 sar = 1 square 'rope'
• 1 iku = 1/18 bùr plural Akk. form of ég, ék, 'levee'
• 1 éš[ŠÈ]: = 120 cubits = the side of 1 square iku in area

Akkadian volume

• 1 bariga = 60 sìla in the Old Akkadian and Neo-Sumerian periods.

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Cleanup

This article is not in Wiki format and is difficult to read. Xaa 23:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

wikified cleaned up and removed tags some red links will require new articles Rktect 13:46, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

I've reorganised the categories to make the page more readable. Check to see whether it's been done correctly. Jimp 21Sep05

Cleanup Agenda

summary of edits:

• added references section called "notes"
• added systems of measurement template

I propose the following cleanup agenda:

• divide the tables of units by city and time period with explanatory introduction
• specify whether the unit is natural or trimmed for sexigesimal computation
• specify whether the unit is based on barley, wheat, oil, or water
• show units as ratio of basic unit (ex. mm:m is 1000:1)
• include a reference for each table

--Gurdjieff (talk) 22:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I went ahead with a first pass at the cleanup. I based the layout on other systems of measurement pages. The page numbers listed as xxxx are forthcoming.--Gurdjieff (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, I finished the changes everything is fully cited now and the article has been wikified--Gurdjieff (talk) 17:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi again, added missing info--Gurdjieff (talk) 05:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

FYI transliteration conventions

The convention for sumerian and akkdian appearing in the same text is
Sumerian = lower case with hyphens between syllables and subscript numbers for homonyms example: gu₄-sag₁₁
Sumerian = all caps with period between signs and determinatives in superscript examples: INI.TUR and ^DINGIRAN
Akkdian lower case italics example= buru

using these conventions will go a long way toward clearing the confusion on this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gurdjieff (talk • contribs) 03:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Typo?

I know nothing about this subject, so I don't make this change myself, but it looks like there is a typo. In the tables there is the term "nindan" (which appears in many non-WP sources) on the same row as "rod". Just below is another table which has "rod" as the first row and is identical to the other table except that "nindan" is spelled "nidan". JamesPaulWhite (talk) 20:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

'Classical' SHE

The value of SHE in the table of lengths appeared to be too small by a factor 10. Now this may be due to an error in the source -- I don't know, I don't have access to that source. I do have access to Nemet-Nejat's 'Daily Life in Ancient Mesopotamia', which quotes a value of ca. 0.28 cm for SHE, much closer to the value of 1/180 of a KUSH. So I've gone ahead and changed it in the table. Modallist (talk) 16:26, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Some things I feel need to be changed.

In the first paragraph the article mentions the tradition of counting tokens. It would be a good idea to include a photo of such tokens. The claim is made that they include metrological as well as mathematical functions. How so? I am aware that the tokens are models for the cuneiform symbols used when the indicated quantities are to be written, but this is the first I've read that they were ever used to measure anything.

The "Sumerian Metrology" svg graphic is unreadable at the scale of the main page, or even the page dedicated to the graphic. It needs to be greatly simplified and/or broken up into separate graphics that can be read at the scale of the main article. Some of the information is critical to understanding their year and day, which is quite misleading in the body of the article.

I would like to see inline citations for the statements that "Akkado-Sumerian metrology has been reconstructed by applying statistical methods..." and "archeologists have found a relationship between the Sumerian and SI metrologies." Please don't consider numerical speculations such as those of Stecchini and Kreidik to be either "statistical methods" or "archeological." Valid statistical methods would include using Fourier transforms to determine recurring frequencies in the various measurements of well-preserved portions of ancient monuments. Archeological investigations are those that proceed onsite to uncover ancient monuments and document findings in situ. Neither one are armchair exercises in pulling harmonizing numbers from a hat, claiming the "ideal" from the hat to be equivalent to the actual measure, and concluding thereby to have established impossible "relationships" between ancient units and the SI system.

Any additional information on the standards kept by "Each city, kingdom and trade guild" until the formation of the empire would be most useful, if such is to be had. It is rarely the case that a central government (even a fiat ruler such as Sargon the Great) can successfully impose new measurement standards on a mercantile body politic that is wedded to prior standards. Said rulers are much more likely to be successful when they sanction current practice and extend it. Note that modern holdouts to the SI system are mercantile interests.

What is the Nanse Hymn, and how can a hymn be used to readopt metrological standards as claimed? What exactly is meant by "plethora of multiple standards" (note the redundancy) and "common groupings"? Perhaps an example would clarify at this point.

What is the relevance of the Statue B of Gudea? It would appear from looking at it that it has a scroll with writing in its lap. I'm guessing that the writing is some metrologically significant edict, but that really needs to be stated in full in the article.

Having torn apart the opening paragraph so thoroughly, I think I better stop for now. However, that does not mean that the rest of the article needs no improvement. To the contrary, I have just as many issues with the rest of it. Dlw20070716 (talk) 23:34, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Calculations

OK, I can see that this is a page that is still finding its way, so probably no-one wants any more criticism or stuff to fix. However, the values in the table of lengths need attention. It currently reads:

Basic Length
Unit	Ratio	Ideal Value	Sumerian	Akkadian	Cuneiform
grain	1/180	0.0025m	še	uţţatu	𒊺
finger	1/30	0.015m	šu-si	ubānu	𒋗𒋛
foot	2/3	0.333m	šu-du3-a	šīzu	𒋗𒆕𒀀
cubit	1	0.497m	kuš3	ammatu	𒌑
step	2	1.000m	ĝiri3	šēpu	𒈨𒊑
reed	6	3.000m	gi	qanû	𒄀
rod	12	6.000m	nindan	nindanu	𒃻
cord	120	60.000m	eše2	aslu	𒂠

These equivalent metric values for the various units cannot be obtained by calculating them from the value of 0.497 m for the cubit. I don't have access to the source, but either the cubit value is wrong, or it should read:

Basic Length
Unit	Ratio	Metric Equivalent
grain	1/180	0.0028 m
finger	1/30	0.017 m
foot	2/3	0.331 m
cubit	1	0.497 m
step	2	0.994 m or 1 m
reed	6	2.982 m or 3 m
rod	12	5.964 m or 6 m
cord	120	59.640 m or 60 m

Where did all the detail higher up this page of variation in the values of the various measurements come from? It would be good to incorporate that in the article. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:24, 27 August 2011 (UTC)