Talk:Anglo-Saxons

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Archive 1 (4 Feb 2002 to 5 Feb 2002) Archive 2 (4 Mar 2004 to 10 Aug 2006) Archive 3 (10 Aug 2006 to 7th Sept 2007)

Additions

I have added some additions from the Anglo-Saxon chronicals to show that there is evidence in addition to the massive archealogical evidence on the Germanic Migration to Britain (at a time when there were massive migrations into Gaul and other parts of the Roman Empire.) But giving a redirect to the main migration debate. Which I have read. Very POV. Hartram 09:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I can accept that compromise. (NovusTabula 13:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC))

OK thanks. The reason for the strong resistance on the article from me and others is that it (the article,) has been through this cycle several times before. I have not a problem with the debate - but this article is just about the Anglo-Saxons. Laws / customes / etc etc. Neutral stuff. Hartram 14:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle stuff does not belong in a general article on the Anglo-Saxons. Neither does the genetics material. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

why not the genetic stuff? It seems to me that it makes a dramatic difference whether the Anglo-Saxon invaders were colonizing tribes that were already germanic and similar, or whether the pre existing peoples were substantially different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.165.23.108 (talk) 22:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is wrong with the ASC either. The genetic question is interesting as to whether there was a population replacement, with the Britons being ethnically cleansed or the male Anglo-Saxon colonists taking British wives (or women) and assimilating. The evidence tends to be towards the latter view rather than the former, traditional view.--Streona (talk) 14:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

More levels

I am particularly interseted in Anglo-Saxon / Germanic tribe warfsre. Plus other stuff. I am going to start to add some more to the article. Anyone want to help? Starting with warfare using Stenton and Stephen Pollington. I got two years at Uni on this so I might as well. Hartram 21:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

"It was perhaps under Offa of Mercia (reigned 757–796), or under Alfred the Great (reigned 871–899) and his successors, that the several kingdoms of the Anglo-Saxons existed. Under the reign of Athelstan (reigned AD 924–937) the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom took shape into England."

This seems oddly phrased. Is there any real need to hedge so much? Maybe better:

"For much of its history, Anglo-Saxon England was not a unified political entity. Under Athelstan (reigned AD 924–937) the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom took shape."

Paul Borysewicz Lawrenceville, New Jersey, USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.81.55.76 (talk) 21:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been studying some stuff on Anglo-Saxons laws and the development of runes to alpahbet and the development of the church. Am going to add some stuff soon. Taking it from when this Anglo-Saxons were a confederation to later. Anyone wants to beat me to it go ahead - I will just fit in.Hartram 15:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

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Jutland

I just wanted to respond to this diff: [1]. Holstein is in Jutland and Old Saxony is the result the expansion of the Saxon tribes from Jutland.. I am not sure why I was referred to these locations after my requested changes? As it stands I think my change was correct: the Angles, Saxons and Jutes all likely came from Jutland. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Complete farce

Like all the wikipedia articles about the English(O.E. Englisc) this seems a complete farce. These people should be called the English not the Anglo-Saxons as he term English was invented by them (Englisc). If anything they have more of a right to be called English than the modern day English, who prefer to think of themselves as a race who descend from pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Europe. I am sick of people trying to distance themselves from the Europeans; it is racist and incorrect. 86.131.255.122 (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

You may be sick of people trying to distance themselves from the Europeans, but what has this got to do with the article? JamesBWatson (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Errr...what? (MJDTed (talk) 08:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC))

There is a large body of historians who dont believe the English are Anglo-Saxon at all..except by cultural inheritance from them. ie the Anglo Saxon invasion was simply an invasion of Elites, not of people and was identical in that respect to both the Roman and Norman cultural invasions. No language was imported except borrowings. The proto-English had always lived in England as an underclass probably to recent Celtic tribal leaders, then to Anglo-Saxon leaders, then to Norman ones, before they finally emerge from obscurity, leading themselves in the middle ages. The emergence of Written English around 1150 AD is evidence of that. Anglo Saxon has been proven to be more distant from English than for example Frisian. Anglo-Saxon was a Scandinavian language similar to modern day Danish. Beowulf is evidence of that, and is quite incomprehensible.--92.3.116.198 (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"There is a large body of historians . . . ": Who are these historians? Name a few. " "No language was imported . . . ": Then where on earth does Old English come from? "Anglo Saxon has been proven to be more distant from English than for example Frisian": Proved how, by whom, where? Why is it that it doesn't read like that to me, or to anyone else I know who has studied the language? Etc etc . . . In short this is written by someone with a large bee in his bonnet and no knowledge of the subject. None of his claims to knowledge quote sources at all. Also To whom is Beowulf incomprehensible? Does the anonymous writer mean it is incomprehensible to speakers of modern English? Is he meaning to imply that this "is evidence" that "Anglo-Saxon" is unrelated to modern English? If so it seems a wierd concept of what constitutes evidence. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Genetic research by Brian Sykes et al I believes questions many long-held views of European ancestries and implies that we are inter-related with all nations of the world. The Norman & Roman conquests seem to have been an "invasion of elites" leaving little genetic traces, the question is - is this true also of the Anglo-Saxons and also of the Celts themselves? It maybe that the majority of British ancestry derives from Vikings, who did migrate en masse and the megalithic peoples of the stone age. The fact is that modern descendants have inheritance from 2 to the power 60 ancestors from 1500 years ago (given 4 generations per century) which is more people than are in the world now, let alone then so everyone alive then is either our ancestor, or nobody's ancestor. My understanding is that Frisian is closer to Old Emglish than to Modern English but that is not quite what was being said. --Streona (talk) 10:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Undo edits by Appleyard

I have undone edits by Anthony Appleyard. He can come along to one of my lectures on Anglo-Saxon history and find out how important the Anglo-Saxon chronicales are to the history of Britain not juts the English. But I doubt that eh would. Hartram (talk) 10:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

confusing section? (it's gibberish)

"The people of the contrasts with the other kingdoms. West Saxon their own nation as a part of the Angelcyn and of their language as Englisc, and the West Saxon royal family claimed to be of the same stock as the royal family of Bernicia in the north; but Bede may have based this distinction solely on names such as Essex (East Saxons) and East Anglia (East Angles). That Bede could envisage one English people (gentis Anglorum and Anglorum populi) at least demonstrates that the Anglo-Saxons could be thought of in such terms in the 8th century." what???21:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I just spotted that, independently, so I'm removing that whole chunk, and placing it here for future reference. It's both gibberish as edited, and it's unreferenced. I don't know why Bede is cited as "l.15", my guess is that should be "c.15" - but, he certainly didn't write that paragraph. It would probably be a perfectly good quotation, otherwise.

Bede, writing in the early 8th century in his Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, (I.15) suggests that:

The people of the contrasts with the other kingdoms. West Saxon their own nation as a part of the Angelcyn and of their language as Englisc, and the West Saxon royal family claimed to be of the same stock as the royal family of Bernicia in the north; but Bede may have based this distinction solely on names such as Essex (East Saxons) and East Anglia (East Angles). That Bede could envisage one English people (gentis Anglorum and Anglorum populi) at least demonstrates that the Anglo-Saxons could be thought of in such terms in the 8th century.^{[citation needed]}

So, by all means move it back if you can also supply the necessary, anyone - i.e., a bit of intelligibility wouldn't go amiss... Nortonius (talk) 09:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

At one point in April it read
"Other early writers do not bear out consistent distinctions, though in custom the Kingdom of Kent presents the most remarkable contrasts with the other kingdoms. West Saxon writers regularly speak of their own nation as a part of the Angelcyn and of their language as Englisc, and the West Saxon royal family claimed to be of the same stock as the royal family of Bernicia in the north; but Bede may have based this distinction solely on names such as Essex (East Saxons) and East Anglia (East Angles). That Bede could envisage one English people (gentis Anglorum and Anglorum populi) at least demonstrates that the Anglo-Saxons could be thought of in such terms in the 8th century."
The last sentence in the para above was added 2 years ago[2]. Doug Weller (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, good - thanks, you just did a bit of checking that I was feeling a bit too busy to do myself! I've found the ref to Bede now, there's a good quotation to be had from that - but the views expressed in a "WP voice" still need a citation, plus a bit of clarification. I could have a go at an edit in a little while, unless someone else gets to it first...? Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 15:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

image

Just to note, the image used in this article under Anglo-Saxon History with the caption "2nd to 5th century A.D simplified migrations." is a German map. It would be nice to have an English version. --Alex Kozak (talk) 03:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted it. It doesn't seem relevant and I'm dubious about its accuracy anyway. Doug Weller (talk) 15:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England

That's an interesting piece of research, which has just been added to the list of "External links" - and it is relevant - but, we can't have external links to every piece of research that's available - the list would be longer than the page! Also, incorporation within the text would require much editing, with outlines of existing research & relevant historiography, which I think should be done at the same time as adding the external link. On the other hand, I'm wondering if really it doesn't belong elsewhere anyway, per the section "Additions", above. Perhaps it would fit better at History of Anglo-Saxon England - or even Racism?! Those are only suggestions, there may be other places more suitable still. Consequently, I've decided to move the link here, for further consideration. Do comment, if you want!

• [3] Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England

Thanks. Nortonius (talk) 21:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll answer myself on this one! The above research is already covered at Racial_segregation#Anglo-Saxon_England, and, on reflection, I really don't think it belongs here, any more than it might belong, say, in an article on the Visigoths. For future reference, I think it's worth pointing out that the use of the word "apartheid" may lead a person who has not read the research to make unfortunate associations with modern politics of racism: rather, I think a fair assessment of the research would be that it's looking into genetic evidence for fairly predictable aspects of conquest and settlement, not limited to that of European invaders of the former Roman province of Britannia. The best explanation for what I mean by all of the foregoing would be to read the research. Nortonius (talk) 09:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The 7th century Laws of Ine of Wessex provide a lower wergild for "welshmen' (i.e. Britons) which implies a lower social status, although the term "apartheid" perhaps implies something more, such as actual separation.--Streona (talk) 07:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

from[4] ...The new theory helps explain historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence that until now had seemed contradictory, including the high number of Germanic genes found in modern-day England.

there 's a difference between the word theory and the word evidence,let me add i dont like these genetic studies about the races ,they remember me the doctor Mengele etc etc

"It is not necessarily the only possible interpretation," Tyler-Smith added--Differencess (talk) 11:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

All interesting stuff, but I still think it's important not to use the word "apartheid" in this context, for reasons I already gave; and I still think that discussion of the subject belongs elsewhere, as I also previously indicated. Mention of wergild in this context puts me in mind of murdrum - again, see my earlier comment! In other words, this wasn't a distinctive feature of Anglo-Saxon society. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Further to this discussion, I've just removed a non-sequitur ref re "apartheid", which had always been thus, since it was added in this edit of November 2007! Nortonius (talk) 17:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Architecture

"no secular buildings above ground" Cnut's palace at Southampton is a stone building of two storeys. can we count this ?--Streona (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

A Google search on "Canute palace southampton" shows this building to be 12th century Anglo-Norman, and not Anglo-Saxon - see e.g. Southampton City Council's list of Scheduled Monuments, entry no.71. I'm no expert though, I'm just saying what I found. Nortonius (talk) 14:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Another illusion shattered...--Streona (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that wasn't the plan! And, I know the feeling. ;) I did try looking for alternatives online, but didn't find anything that qualifies as a "secular building above ground" - only references to archaeology. Nortonius (talk) 16:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It is generally held that the Anglo Saxons built single storey structures of wood but not stone. However much of what they built was torn down by the Normans or incorporated in larger structures. Can we ever know? Certainly the Synod at Calne which resulted in the collapse of the floor was on two storeys.--Streona (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at the Bayeux Tapestry, maybe? As I understand it, a fairly strong theory is that it was created by English women, who obviously would have been in a position to give a visual impression of contemporary Anglo-Saxon buildings. There's probably detailed discussion of this aspect to be found somewhere, but I know that the second building shown in the tapestry is believed to a depiction from memory of the church at Bosham, in Sussex. The adjacent section of the legend in the tapestry mentions the church at Bosham ("Bosham ecclesia"), and it's been argued that the arch shown there in the tapestry is the same as the chancel arch in the church, which survives today; but then there are similar arches shown elsewhere in the tapestry. Anyway, I think the point here is that, if it's accepted that the tapestry does show contemporary Anglo-Saxon buildings, then it seems that some of these are secular, from what I can see, beginning with the building shown to the right of the church at Bosham; and, it's on two floors, with the upper floor reached by steps, and looks pretty stony to me. Hope that's of some interest, and I'm not just telling you stuff you already know! ;) Anyway, as I say I bet there's a reliable, published source about this out there somewhere, but if there is, I'm afraid I don't have it. Nortonius (talk) 20:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I didn't, thanks.--Streona (talk) 07:19, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Severe Contradiction of this article

"The indigenous British people, who wrote in both Latin and Welsh, referred to these invaders as Saxones or Saeson - the latter is still used today in the Welsh word for 'English' people.[7]" This is extremely incorrect. There are no historical records of who would be the first English people as records of such were wiped out from a prolonged period of ancient war. Anglo is English and the English people are of a Germanic tribe racially. There are no "British People". If they wrote latin it was most likely because they were Latin which would surely make them not of England. There were many Latin invaders of England and time of rule under the non-English Latin invaders. If anything England should be thought of as a minor territory of Germania. Some leaders spoke in Latin but it was because they were leaders not because that is the language of the English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nealvan (talk • contribs) 16:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry man but that doesn't make sense at all . . . there was most definitely a Romano-British people separate from the Germanic tribes, and they did indeed write pretty much exclusively in Latin and Welsh - though of course the ones outside of Wales and Cornwall spoke Brythonic, it's just not written anywhere. Take Nennius for example: "...in ea sunt quattuor gentes: scotti, picti, saxones atque brittones" (In britain there are four peoples: the Scots, Picts, Saxons and Britons). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.4.254.120 (talk) 06:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Does this contributor have any knowledge of the subject? What does he mean by 'There are no "British People"'? Does he mean that there were no people in Britain before the Roman invasion? Or does he accept that they existed, but for some reason object to the conventional use of the word "British" to refer to them? If the latter, then what word would he prefer, and why does he prefer it to "British"? As for his comments about Latin, is he under the impression that all of the Latin written across much of Europe in the middle ages was written by ethnically Latin people? JamesBWatson (talk) 20:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly the original poster has no knowledge on the subject. I have just watched Britain AD - such an interesting programme. How fascinating to see an even more updated theory which is that the English began to speak English due to picking up a continental culture, likewise with jewellery, clothing and social systems, and minimising the evidence of there ever being a Teutonic invasion. It also explains the rise of the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic difference in literature and historical "accuracies". If anything, this evidence - be it true - completely nullifies any future argument for English being "Germanic" by race or blood and questions the need for such profound English, Welsh and Scottish nationalism today. It is not at all absurd that a new dominating culture can arise from within a nation without the need of migration, invasion or conquest, as it has happened in many parts of the world and is still happening today with popular culture from America or Japan, for example, causing peoples to change to what's hip, new and seen as better. (Enzedbrit (talk) 04:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC))

The thing is, they could never accept that, they enjoy the oppression. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Translation of "rex Anglorum Saxonum".

I refer to the following sentence in the "Etymology" section: "The term "Anglo-Saxon" is from Latin writings going back to the time of King Alfred the Great, who seems to have frequently used the title rex Anglorum Saxonum or rex Angul-Saxonum (king of the Angles and Saxons)."

I cannot possibly read "rex Anglorum Saxonum" as meaning "king of the Angles and Saxons". "Anglorum" and "Saxonum" can be read either as 2 nouns in apposition or as a noun with an adjective in agreement; either way they both refer to the same entity, not to 2 entities to be joined by "and". It seems to me that the most natural translation is "king of the English Saxons" (as contrasted with the continental German Saxons). I have amended the translation in the article. If anyone thinks I am wrong please put an explanation here. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Jutes?

I've been reading things- this article included- that seem to state that Anglo-Saxons are partially descended from Jutes. I was under the inpression that Anglo-Saxons were descended only from Angles and Saxons. Can anyone straighten this out? Gringo300 (talk) 21:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

There is not a lot to straighten out. The traditional view (first expressed, as the article says, by Bede) is that the Germanic settlements in Britain were from 3 tribes: Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. It is questionable to what extent, in fact, the people in question really were from distinct groups; probably they were more of a broad continuum spread over a number of not very distinct tribes, but I am aware of no reason to doubt that the majority were from the 3 areas listed by Bede. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the origin of the Jutes is a disputed topic—at best it's possible to say that Bede suggests that a people called the Jutes came with the Angles and Saxons across the sea. Some people, to my understanding, have even suggested that the name "Jutes" was an interlineation (i.e. something added to the original text) in the Ecclesiastical History. Also, the fact that they come from Jutland is a hypothesis, not a proven verity. The name derivation of Jutland is not particularly close to the possible name for the Juteish people, and the Oxford English Dictionary seems to suggest that the Jutes are synonymous with the Geats of Beowulf: and they're apparently from Sweden, not Jutland at all. Even Wikipedia's Own topic page on the Jutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes) states several hypotheses. Should it not be stated in the article that the Jutes may have formed part of the Anglo-Saxons, but that their origin is unknown. Zach Beauvais (talk) 21:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure there's something to be made of what you say, Zbeauvais, but my initial thought is that this article is about Anglo-Saxons, so too much on Jutes here might not be right - perhaps you could just add "possibly" to mention of their being from Jutland, in the lead? It would better reflect what's on the Jutes' own page, as you say, and I've just added a wikilink to the Jutes page for their only other appearance in this article. Then, why not do some work on the Jutes article? I seem to remember reading someone somewhere saying that the Jutes in England were even a figment of someone's imagination! I doubt that's mainstream, though...? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 10:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Renaming from "Anglo-Saxons" to "Anglo-Saxon"

SilkTork has moved the article "Anglo-Saxons" to "Anglo-Saxon". Is there any good reason for this? SilkTork refers to "Anglo-Saxon" as "correct term", but gives no reason for regarding "Anglo-Saxons" as incorrect. The article is about the people known as "the Anglo-Saxons", and that seems to me to be the natural title. An article entitled "Anglo-Saxon" would seem to me to suggest it is about the language sometimes known as "Anglo-Saxon". Is there any reason for not restoring the original title? JamesBWatson (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Unjustified move, I'd say. Trigaranus (talk) 22:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I think Anglo-Saxons would be preferable to Anglo-Saxon for the people so as not to be confused with the language that is sometimes called Anglo-Saxon. I don't think either is necessary more correct than the other. Kman543210 (talk) 22:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought this would be an uncontroversial and uncontested move. The article as it stands is about Anglo-Saxon matters and almost exclusively uses the term "Anglo-Saxon". The main category and sub-categories use the term Anglo-Saxon - Category:Anglo-Saxon England. It has been "Anglo-Saxon" since 2006. The move to Anglo-Saxons was done by User:Abtract in July of this year, with no corresponding amendment of the article contents. My concern was to ensure the title of the article matched the topic and content of the article. However, if people wish to open up a discussion on this and the consensus is to move it back to Anglo-Saxons, then I'll make the move. It is worth looking at Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Naming conflict for some background to naming disputes and guidance on how to proceed. Guidance in those pages indicates "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." And Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references suggests using Google and other reference sources. Encarta uses Anglo-Saxons. Britannica has Anglo-Saxon. Anglo-Saxon in Google books returns 22,596 results. Anglo-Saxons returns 9,280 results. Google hits for "Anglo-Saxon" gets 5,620,000, while "Anglo-Saxons" is 1,120,000. My inference from that, is that while some reliable sources use "Anglo-Saxons" the majority use "Anglo-Saxon". The article has been Anglo-Saxon until the recent move to Anglo-Saxons, which didn't change the content of the article, leading to a conflict between title and content. We are now left with a situation in which we can leave things as they are in which the article matches the majority of reliable sources, and the content and title go together. Or we can move the title to Anglo-Saxons, and rewrite the content to match. My suggestion would be to leave the title at Anglo-Saxon. SilkTork *^YES! 23:19, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added the alternative term in the lead sentence. It can be swapped around later if people still feel this article should be moved to Anglo-Saxons. SilkTork *^YES! 23:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles on groups or peoples are probably more often plural or collective forms: Huns, Mongols, Udmurt people, Polabian Slavs, Berber people, Frisians, exception Viking, Goths. I don't think any Google search can be constructed which will produce a relative frequency count of the use of anglo-saxon or anglo-saxons as nouns referring to the Englisc. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. I think there may be an argument that articles on ethnic groups should be named "Foo people" as in "Anglo-Saxon people" to differentiate them from articles on the culture and history of the people or period (as Anglo-Saxon can be thought of as much a period of history as a distinct group of people). However, convention is clearly currently more in favour of using the format "Foos" so this article would be flying in the face of convention, so I have moved it back. SilkTork *^YES! 08:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Correct - not that the conventions for categories are different, because Category:Anglo-Saxons etc are usually needed for biographies, though here we use Category:Anglo-Saxon people. Johnbod (talk) 15:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Protestant roots

Hello here ! I highly appreciate the so far both given definitions of the former invaders of Great Britain, and the French way to describe the Anglosphere. But. I would like to know how english speakers refere - if they do, as I imagine that I do, using a (third meaning of ?) the expression "Anglo-Saxon" - to the importance of the Protestants (e.g. WASP) in the world ? I mean : no Protestants without Germans, so, no Anglosphere without them either. Does the expression "Anglo-Saxon" match a little with my feeling ? Thank you for your help. PRC 2rh (talk) 09:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

• I then suggest to add a third meaning to the article, since the "Anglo-Saxons" cannot be described as Protestants only, and not as (Roman) Catholics either. And speaking of "Catholics and Protestants" just describes a (large) part of the world, without any consideration with respect to the Latins or Anglo-Saxons roots of its parts. 2rh (talk) 09:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Renamings

I've queried the renaming of Edwy to Eadwig at Talk:Eadwig of England. Is there a consensus for this move, and the other moves made by User:Cavila? I'm no expert and I'll go with the informed consensus view, but I'm not wholly convinced so far. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:39, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Original Anglo-Saxon settlements

The Anglo-Saxons emigrated as Frisian nomadic tribes originating from the tribes Anglo-heim and Sakso-heim. The ‘heim’ extension means tribe or heir. Most likely Anglo was a son of Sakso, a brother of Friso. The name of these tribes transformed during time in Englum and Saaksum. The original settlements can be found here: http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&tab=wl&q=saaksum. Anglo-Saxons had famous neighbor tribes like the Aeldo-heim (now Aalsum) and Azinga warlords (now Ezinge). Kingship and expansion by war and emigration were central elements in these ancient cultures. F.N. Heinsius. February 19th, 2010. 82.172.98.197 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC).

Contemporary Meanings

"The term 'Anglo-Saxon' is used to refer to the modern people of the British Isles". Is it? Or is that an example of "Wiki-speak", on a par with confusing English with British? The modern people of the British Isles include a large number of Celts, who should not be referred to as Anglo-Saxon. I suggest either inserting the word "inaccurately" or referring to "the modern people of England". Ausseagull (talk) 08:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Blimey - well spotted! How long's that been there? Of course you're right - I'll change it, but feel free to tweak it to a better wording. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The diff that created the error is here - I've now reverted to the pre-January wording. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:17, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

French people often refer to the people of Britain as "Anglo-Saxons", particular in a semi-perjorative sense, and I don't think they know or care about the Welsh or even the origin of modern culture from the Normans.Eregli bob (talk) 04:35, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Anglo Saxon as an ethnic group?

I notice on some other cultural/ ethnic group pages they have a similar format, with pictures of famous people of that culture, and 'areas with significant populations' (eg Romani people, Serbs) . Is it possible to do something similar for Anglo Saxons, if indeed there are any relevant studies? Hachimanchu (talk) 17:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

No. This is essentially a historical article, not an ethnic one. No modern person can claim to be Anglo-Saxon in the sense of this article, just English. Johnbod (talk) 18:48, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Anglosphere

Inclusion of the term Anglosphere in the See Also section seems like a good idea. Somebody that can edit through the lock want to edit that in? ——67.180.86.254 (talk) 04:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Rather than adding it to "See also", I've inserted a brief reference in the text. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:55, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Rename to Anglo-Saxon?

According to WP:PLURAL I think this article should be named Anglo-Saxon. I see above a discussion about just such a move a few years back that was quickly undone. Perhaps the policy on plural names has become stronger since then or maybe I am missing something. I wanted to mention this first before I propose the move in case somebody wants to set me straight. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:39, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

You have misread WP:PLURAL. Anglo-Saxons are a people (referred to with a plural word)--the English before the 12th century. "Anglo-Saxon" is merely an adjective. The proposed title won't even be understood as corresponding to this article... Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

But couldn't somebody say "he is [an] Anglo-Saxon"? Just like African American? If so that shows it is not always used in a plural form in English, and therefore the title should be singular. –CWenger (^ • @) 19:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is an Anglo-Saxon now. If you look at Category:Ancient Germanic peoples or Category:Ancient peoples they all have plural forms. Most national/ethnic groups are in the form French people or English people. That Americans (mostly) use "Anglo-Saxon" to mean English in certain contexts is neither here nor there. Johnbod (talk) 03:02, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, you seem to be right. I wonder, why the difference between naming for ancient people and modern people? –CWenger (^ • @) 03:04, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is such a difference (c/f Germans, Greeks, Czechs, Georgians, etc). A few articles, like the one cited, are deviantly named though. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, many of the European articles seem to have been "ethnicized" since I last looked. I wonder if this is a good thing. But globally, in Category:People by nationality, the pattern is clear. Johnbod (talk) 20:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, im new!

Hi! This is a useful website for when im stuck in homework! This article actually helped me complete my History homework for tomorrow lol! THANK YOU WIKIPEDIA! (16th January 2012) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Groovestar299 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 16 January 2012 (UTC)