Talk:Apothecary

Etymology

I temporarily removed this paragraph from the article:

The word is from the Latin apothecarius, a keeper of an otheca, a store; see also apotheca - a storehouse or magazine, Thuc.vi. 97, for books, Indoct. 5; a burial place, id. Contempl. 22; but especially a place in the upper part of the house in which the Romans kept their wine in amphorae.

What the heck does this all mean? If this etymology has to be so technical, then it should come later in the article. The opening of the article needs to be more accessable to the lay reader who just wants to know the basic facts of what an apothecary is. ike9898 21:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Looks an evaluation of Latin poetry or something. Greatgavini 12:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Rather than removing it, why not just move it later? I appreciate knowing the derivation of the word, and I think it is suitable content. WLD 08:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, add it to the end or give it a section for etymology, since that would quickly be skipped if uninteresting to the reader. Wiki wiki1 03:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll not comment on the sorry state of three different editors not able to parse an etymological passage. I will, however, suggest that the passage was probably a verbatim copy-and-paste from the OED website (I'm not a member, but the phrasing and thoroughness look like OED to me). The passage is not "so technical", it's just thorough, much more thorough than is needed here. The editor who pasted it in could have stopped at the first semi-colon. I see no reason why it couldn't be included at the end of the first paragraph; the original meaning of "apothecary" as merely a shop keeper is historically important. 12.22.250.4 18:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't even see any semi-colons when I read it. Oh well, time to change my glasses again. 58.6.247.131 (talk) 12:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The etymology, moreover, appears incorrect. The word comes from the Greek, apotheke "barn, storehouse," lit. "a place where things are put away," from apo- "away" + tithenai "to put". Drugs and herbs being among the chief items of non-perishable goods, the meaning narrowed by the 17c. to "druggist". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tachypaidia (talk • contribs) 12:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect reference

The reference cited:

• Sharif Kaf al-Ghazal, Journal of the International Society for the History of Islamic Medicine, 2004 (3), pp. 3-9 [8].

Appears to be incorrect. The journal is freely available on the Internet, here: http://www.ishim.net/newsletter.htm. Sharif Kaf al-Ghazal does have an article in the cited journal, but it does not cover apothecary shops in Baghdad, the title being "Medical Ethics in Islamic History at a Glance". Reading the article does not support the claim made in the article text. I propose that the assertion made in the article is removed, as it is not supported by the cited reference. I should, perhaps, note in passing, that the same assertion and reference are used in at least one other article in Wikipedia. 85.158.139.99 (talk) 08:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact, this incorrect reference is used in the following articles:

• Apothecary
• Dispensing chemist
• Compounding
• Timeline of historic inventions
• Timeline of Islamic science and engineering
• Inventions in medieval Islam
• Medicine in medieval Islam
• Inventions in medieval Islam
• Engineering in medieval Islam

...there may be others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.158.139.99 (talk) 10:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The reference lacked a title and was incomplete. The author is an editor of the journal and seems to publish an article in every single issue. I think I found the correct article, and have edited accordingly. (The statement is supported by the first paragraph of the article.) I know that the Arabic influence on European medicine was enormous (see Schola Medica Salernitana), so the statement doesn't seem particularly remarkable to me. Nevertheless, it would be nice to have it backed by a high quality Western source as well, as it's not obvious that the article was peer reviewed and a certain amount of patriotic bias wouldn't be surprising. I would like to get rid of the odd sourcing of the statement to one particular scholar, as if it was a value statement or something controversial. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you edited all the other articles too? If so, I'm impressed by very quick work. I've stated elsewhere that the contention that Baghdad was the _first_ location of apothecary shops is contentious, and needs qualification.85.158.139.99 (talk) 10:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Darn. The SineBot edit-clashed with additional text I was adding.

There is another reference used in many of the above articles, viz :"S. Hadzovic (1997). "Pharmacy and the great contribution of Arab-Islamic science to its development", Medicinski Arhiv 51 (1-2), p. 47-50". Medicinski Arhiv is not available online, and given the other reference provided by the author has turned out to be incorrect, it would be great if someone would check that, too. 85.158.139.99 (talk) 10:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ahh - found it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9324574. The original journal article is apparently in Croatian, but PubMed gives an English abstract in which the claim is made "The first drug stores in the world were established in Arabic world (Baghdad 754)". I don't have access to the full article text, and even if I did, I don't read Croatian. Is this the kind of reference Wikipedia should be using? 85.158.139.99 (talk) 10:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I see. So your point is that the Arabs probably weren't the first? Of course that makes sense. Unfortunately I don't have the time to deal with this further, or to correct all those other articles that I am only marginally interested in. Sorry. Perhaps the current formulation in this article isn't so bad, after all. Or we could just say (as a fact, not an attributed statement) that Europe got the idea from the Arabs, and when. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely. I'm more than happy to give credit where credit is due, and 'Western European' culture owes a huge debt to the Middle Eastern intellectuals who preserved and built upon the Classical Greek knowledge, as well as making their own discoveries. They made marvellous additions to the body of knowledge. However, their achievements do need setting in a proper historical context, and their religion is (almost) irrelevant. There are arguments that the Muslim tradition of testing and inquiry, and requiring reliable sources for the hadith led to the development of the scientific method, but that properly lies in an article on the history and philosophy of science. We do not refer to the Christian scientist Newton, for example, so referring to Muslim scientists or intellectuals is bringing religion in where it does not fit. Overall, I'd be happy with saying that the first apothecary shops in Baghdad appeared in 754, supported by the appropriate references, but saying the first apothecary shops (or drugstores) (by implication anywhere in the world) appeared in Baghdad is simply being misleading. One could argue that they were the first to come under state control - but that is an important qualification that would need adding, and I'm not even completely sure that is true - both the Chines and Japanese may well have prior claims. As for apothecary or pharmacy shops in general, the late Roman Empire had those in the form of unguentaria who produced perfumes, ointments, salves and pills.85.158.139.99 (talk) 12:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me then that both the Roman pharmacy shops and the Arabic ones are quite significant and should be mentioned, along with any other early mentions. There is no need to include a statement that we know to be wrong or misleading, just because we have reliable sources for it. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone should limit that SineBot or something, it's really ticking me off. 58.6.247.131 (talk) 12:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)