Talk:Aryan race

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Non-racist usage.

The Aryan is an ancient Indo-Iranian word and has nothing to do with the Semites (Jew-Arabs) linguistically or racially. There is surely an effort to Semitize the Aryans by means of false propaganda.

I'm not really an expert or anything, but it seems to me that there is a completely non-racist, colloquial usage of the term "Arian" merely to describe physical characteristics (blond hair, blue eyes, fair skin, etc.) and that it might be noteworthy (usage example: "I did a sketch the other day of a model with very Arian features.").

I might be completely wrong on that; if so please disregard this comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eblingdp (talk • contribs) 03:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I am under the impression that the Aryan Race orginated from the Indus River Valley in India and migrated to Iran. The article should begin with this fact instead of saying it is important in Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyan777 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 19 June 2009

It isn't a fact. Paul B (talk) 07:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

well, it is. "Wikipedia user Kyan777 is under the impression that the 'Aryan race' originated near the Indus River." It just isn't a notable fact, seeing we aren't "Kyan777-pedia". --dab (𒁳) 07:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, paging through the wonderful charts in the later volumes of A Study Of History (Vol. I-VI) state that the arya was part of the Babylonic civilization, neo-babylonian universal state, and consisted of the "vedic", "hittite", and Zoroastrainism. Babylon consisted of Eurasian Nomads (aryans), Kassites, Hittites, Eurasian Nomads (Scyths), Medes, AND Persians. Aryan ethnicity and history should not be confused with any of these ethic cultures: Sienpi, Insular Celts, continental Teutons, Tartars, Torgut calmucks, scandinavians, continental saxons, wends, lithuanians, magyars, bosniaks, franks, serbs, albanians, rumeliot greeks, etc etc etc blah. Assirting Iraq as the source for the Aryans is probably accurate as their homeland is listed on the tigris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.145.94.146 (talk) 07:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've just edited out the reference to Gobineau using the term Aryan in a 'neutral' fashion, as a reading of his work reveals that he certainly did not. Joecronin (talk) 16:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is UTTERLY RACIST against Aryans. To bring up Hitler or Nazi's at -all-, when giving a definition for the Aryan race, is a racist & propagandistic portrayal. If you open up the wiki on "black people" (note also that the title of the article about black people calls them "black people", but the article about Aryans calls them "a concept", (read the very first line)... the wiki on "black people" does not mention "black panthers", kids with AK-47's, black hate crimes, black crimes in general, or any other negative thing about blacks. But THIS article, on the other hand... this article makes a point to dig up every piece of dirt ever pinned against people of the Aryan race, because the article is propaganda. Hey... NP? Google does the same thing. Apparently it's "academically and socially acceptable" to use racist propaganda against Aryans (as if Aryans were all Nazi's, or that were remotely close to what it means to BE Aryan, or that the Aryan race is merely a concept that only Nazi's would employ) that wiki and google don't even bother to check their racist propaganda. SamJennings (talk) 13:30, 12 September 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.157.32 (talk)

The Aryan racial theories of the Nazis were central to the horror of the Holocaust and to not include it would be blatantly biased. The article on black people doesn't include material on black crime for the same reason white crime is not mentioned in the White people article. You'll also note that the White people article makes no mention of Nazis.BashBrannigan (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

That is such a wash. For the right point of contrast, see whether the views of Farrakhan or MalcolmX appear in the article about black people. See whether the theory behind the horrors of black vs black genocide in Africa are cobbled into the wiki on black PEOPLE. They -aren't-, because those theories have nothing to do with what it is to -be- black.

The article is entitled "Aryan RACE", Not "Aryan Racial Theories" or "Racial Theories of the Nazi's". Aryan Racial Theory & Nazi Racial Theory does NOT belong in the article about the Aryan Race.

Aryan is a RACE of people: blond, blue eyed, fair skinned... If you study the historical invasions against Europe (from outsiders) you will see that the Aryan race is that set of people whose lands were never fully conquered by the Mongols, Arabs, Ottomans, Saracens, Romans... (with the exception of the Basques Celts Poles Czeks etc...) you might still find SOME aryans within those lands, but the point is that the Aryans are the ones who weren't raped out (or "peaceably" mixed with) by those invading forces.

A race is a set of people whose genetic and family background describe them... the mentioned racial THEORIES have nothing to do with the race they are about, except that they are theories ABOUT the Aryan race... well there are people who have THEORIES about blacks, Jews, Asians... need I go on? Alot of those theories are racist, too... the Jihad killed 270 million people, and still counting... for example... should the Article on Arabs tell about the religious dogma of Jihad, from the Koran? Should people think about them as identical, or so closely linked that to see an Aryan is to see a Nazi? To see an Arab is to see a Jihadist?

This article makes it as if "to identify with being a member of that race" also carries the implication of being partially guilty of all these racist views. Because it implicitly links the race with the racist view, the article is anti-Aryan racist propaganda.

SamJennings (talk) 12:14, 13 September 2011  — Preceding  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.157.32 (talk)  

First, 70.36.157.32 , please sign all your posts with four tildes. This article is more than just about "the" Aryan Race. It is about the origin, definition and use of the term Aryan Race. The Nazi usage can not be left out. BashBrannigan (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure the KKK would agree with that opinion's analogy, if they were writing about what it means to be black. If you want to read or converse about Aryan Racial Theories, or Nazi Racial Theories, make a NEW article about THOSE. Don't clutter up the page about Aryan People with all this junk about racist theory. It's not related at ALL. The place for that is NOT the article about the Aryan Race. The Nazi's did NOT gain a right to "tag" the Aryan race with articles about their doctrines. It's simply not the place for it. It's people who push that doctrine that make it politically incorrect for an Aryan person to SAY they are an Aryan person. Just imagine if you couldn't say you were Black, or Jewish, or Asian... imagine if the social attitude were so utterly hostile to your racial identity that you couldn't even SAY who you WERE, racially... That's what this article promotes against Aryan people, and that's why I sustain that it's racist propaganda.70.36.157.32 (talk) 03:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)SamJennings (talk) 12:14, 13 September 2011

My previous response applies equally to the above. I won't continue to reply unless you have something new or relevant to say. Again, please sign your post with four tildes: (~). BashBrannigan (talk) 03:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Bash, you never refuted my argument. Nor did you refute the developments of that argument. You simply persisted in doing what you wanted to do, without even thinking. The topic of Nazi Racial theory is not the same thing as the topic of the Aryan Race. Nor is the pseudoscience of racial propaganda. Because I have seen no neutral party here, indeed, I only see racial propaganda, designed to make Aryans look like racists, I intend to open a neutrality dispute and not to close that until those topics are removed from this page.SamJennings 70.36.157.32 (talk) 04:27, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I already stated, but will repeat it once more, that the article is not just about "the" Aryan race, but about the origin, definition and use of the term Aryan race. Nazi usage must be included. BashBrannigan (talk) 05:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

You seem to assume that there is some actual group of people called "Aryans" who are being misrepresented in some way. But that's nonsense. The term Aryan is not used in the same way as "White" or "Black". You never see the word "Aryan" put on a form for racial identification. There is no actual "Aryan people", so this whole argument is nonsensical. In fact you make one of the most basic of errors when you say "Aryan is a RACE of people: blond, blue eyed, fair skinned". Nope, that's the Nordic race. But you wont find that on any official documents either, since its an intellectually obsolete concept. Paul B (talk) 11:40, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Aryans,Iranians,IndoIranians,Indo Iranian Language, Indo European Language ancestor

Okay so the article states

"The use of 'Aryan' as a synonym for 'Indo-European' or to a lesser extent for 'Indo-Iranian', is regarded today by many as obsolete and politically incorrect, but may still occasionally appear in material based on older scholarship, or written by persons accustomed to older usage, such as in a 1989 article in Scientific American by Colin Renfrew in which he uses the word 'Aryan' in its traditional meaning as a synonym for 'Indo-European'."

and this is contradictory to the notion that Aryan refers to Indo Iranian(s)., as is stated in the Indo Iranian article..."Indo-Iranian peoples are a linguistic group consisting of the Indo-Aryan, Dardic, Iranian, and Nuristani peoples; that is, speakers of Indo-Iranian languages."

Your saying Aryan doesn't refer to Iranians? Why is it that "the earliest epigraphically-attested reference to the word arya occurs in the 6th century Behistun inscription, which describes itself to have been composed "in arya [language or script]" (§ 70). As is also the case for all other Old Iranian language usage, the arya of the inscription does not signify anything but "Iranian".[2]???

I think there is alot of conflicting views on this due to multiple editors, please keep a consensus on things. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.105.24 (talk) 06:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Nazi Germany/ Hitler Relationship with Reza Shah

This article might want to briefly mention the relationship between Nazi Germany's leader Adolf Hitler and the Shah of Iran at the time (Reza Shah). This relationship led to the invasion of Iran by British and Russian forces in fear of German influence. Hitler also gave the Shah paintings that he drew himself, and I am not sure about this, but I read somewhere (I will try to find the link) that Hitler had sent an anthropologist to (then Persia) who studied the archaeological sites of ancient Iran such as Persepolis and suggested to the King of Persia to change its name to Iran (Land of Aryans).

I think the article speaks to much of Indians, and there is very little evidence supporting their claims. The Indian sanskirt language has many burrowed words from the ancestor PIE language, making it not the home of the "Aryans" or PIE's This is associated with the steppe theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.105.24 (talk) 06:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

British Raj

The section entitled British Raj has some problems. It starts...

Main article: Indo-Aryan migration

See also: Out of India theory

In India, under the British Empire, the British rulers also used the idea of a distinct Aryan race in order to ally British power with the Indian caste system. It was widely claimed that the Aryans were white people who had invaded India in ancient times, subordinating the darker skinned native Dravidian peoples, who were pushed to the south. Thus the foundation of Hinduism was ascribed to northern invaders who had established themselves as the dominant castes, and who were supposed to have created the sophisticated Vedic texts.

Much of these theories were simply conjecture fueled by European imperialism.

The problems I can see are as follows:

• No citation for any connection with the British Raj, which is particularly odd, given that it is the title of the section.
• General implication that Indo-Aryan migration migration is a fabrication, when the only source given actually supports the theory.

I suggest that the section be renamed Indo-Aryan migration and the references to the British Raj be removed from the start of the section. I would just do it but I note that this is a long standing section in the article so I thought I would run it past the other editors first.

Yaris678 (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I fixed this problem on the 18th of Feb. Yaris678 (talk) 12:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggested merge

I suggest that Master race be merged into this article as a new section. The existing article only covers the Aryan master race concept, there is no reason for it to stand as a separate article; they would be better together. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose One problem is that the Master race article is poorly referenced. It should be brought up to standards before being merged. BashBrannigan (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose The two articles should NOT be merged because Master race was only the Nazi concept of the Aryan race--that is, Nordicism. As pointed out during the article, during most of its history, the concept of the Aryan race was simply that it was one of the subraces of the Caucasian race, composed of the original Proto-Indo-Europeans and their present day descendents--the people now called the Indo-European peoples. The term Aryan race was used in world atlases and other literature published by non-Nazis and anti-Nazis up to the end of World War II and even as late as 1989 in articles published in Scientific American to mean this original definition, that is ALL Indo-Europeans (not just Nordics), as pointed out and referenced in the article. Keraunos (talk) 19:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Agree with Keraunos. Aryan Race and the Nazi's concept of master race are not synonymous.--Utinomen (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree this proposal is clearly ill-advised. It does not appear AdamBMorgan has bothered to read the article. --dab (𒁳) 11:55, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

why there is no mention that some brahmins in india belong to aryan race

why there is no mention that some brahmins in india belong to aryan raceRaja.m82 (talk) 05:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia will accept material with solid, reputable references. BashBrannigan (talk) 22:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

This is discussed in the section Aryan race#Indo-Aryan migration. It presents a number of studies that have looked into it and come to different conclusions. Is there anything you think is missing? Yaris678 (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

because the "Aryan race" was taken to include all Indo-European speaking peoples. The brahmins are just a caste within the Indo-Aryan group and as such a random subset of a subset that do not bear specific mention. If this article has any purpose, it is to teach people that the "Aryan race" has no intrinsic connection with either the Nazis nor the Indians. It was just an attempt to define "race" along linguistic rather than craniometric/physiological lines. The Indo-European languages at the time were known as "Aryan", and thus this is just the concept of an "Indo-European race" is just the idea that "race" has more aspects than skull shape and can also be defined along cultural boundaries. Nazi or Brahmanical racial supremacy came to capitalize on the concept, but is not at its origin. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Social Darwinism

First of all, I think it is important to have an article dedicated to just explaining the view of the Aryan race. Social Darwinism plays a large part with the Nazi's view of the Aryan race and was never mentioned in the article. The Nazis believed that only the strongest will survive and in their minds, anyone who was not a part of their perfect Aryan race, was considered subhuman and was not fit to survive. They considered their efforts a cleanse for the human race. (Kamomilani (talk) 06:24, 15 April 2010 (UTC))

Copyright problem removed

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Charles Darwin's use of the term "Aryan"

Shouldn't Charles Darwin's use of the term be mentioned in the article? In "The Descent of Man" Darwin wrote:

"ON THE FORMATION OF THE RACES OF MAN.

In some cases the crossing of distinct races has led to the formation of a new race. The singular fact that the Europeans and Hindoos, who belong to the same Aryan stock, and speak a language fundamentally the same, differ widely in appearance, whilst Europeans differ but little from Jews, who belong to the Semitic stock, and speak quite another language, has been accounted for by Broca (49. 'On Anthropology,' translation, 'Anthropological Review,' Jan. 1868, p. 38.), through certain Aryan branches having been largely crossed by indigenous tribes during their wide diffusion. When two races in close contact cross, the first result is a heterogeneous mixture: thus Mr. Hunter, in describing the Santali or hill- tribes of India, says that hundreds of imperceptible gradations may be traced "from the black, squat tribes of the mountains to the tall olive- coloured Brahman, with his intellectual brow, calm eyes, and high but narrow head"; so that it is necessary in courts of justice to ask the witnesses whether they are Santalis or Hindoos. (50. 'The Annals of Rural Bengal,' 1868, p. 134.)"

217.236.161.181 (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

would like to mention some already fixed in accordance fact contained in the text and there is historical evidence. 1 - The translation to indicate the root of the word, arya. 2 - The oldest attend founde in Behistun ( which accualy should be Bi Stun, Bi= With out AND Stun=Pillar),which is KrudStan. (Kurd Stan, or Kurd Stan (Stan the swidish Means Town)) 3 - Kurdish as well as Persian is an Indo-European language. 4- Ary means in both Persian and kurdish (so long as I know): Free So it's not a race but a way of being. If to be free from all the involuntary is precious so I can go with it to consider Ary as noble people. The lies in man's desire to be noble or free, or that you want to be, namely a Ary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.121.68.1 (talk) 13:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Aryan Race - a theosophical definition of the word

Dear admin and friends -

The following are written merely to be of service to the Wikipedia, so it may blossom in its level of truthfulness.

I recognize, that I recently have been posting some messages about changes to this place at the wrong place, namely at user

jpgordon (Josh Gordon's page). Sorry about that. I do hope that this place is the right one?

If so, I have a few questions about the "Aryan race" page.

I understand it, that I without problems can post the above paragraph on Arya or Aryan by Blavatsky in the Theosophy section without anyone necessarily deleting it again, like it happened recently?

These are the words: "Ârya (Sk.) Lit., “the holy”; originally the title of Rishis, those who had mastered the “Âryasatyâni” (q.v.) and entered the Âryanimârga path to Nirvâna or Moksha, the great “four-fold” path. But now the name has become the epithet of a race, and our Orientalists, depriving the Hindu Brahmans of their birth-right, have made Aryans of all Europeans. In esotericism, as the four paths, or stages, can be entered only owing to great spiritual development and “growth in holiness ”, they are called the “four fruits”. The degrees of Arhatship, called respectively Srotâpatti, Sakridâgamin, Anâgâmin, and Arhat, or the four classes of Âryas, correspond to these four paths and truths." (ref: H. P. Blavatsky's words om Aryan or Arya from the Theosophical Glossary, 1892)

Another issue in the Theosophy Section of the "Aryan race" page. Those who claims that Samael Aun Weor is a theosophist and therefore aught to be mentioned in that paragrah on the subject "Theosophy" aught at least, as I se it, - by documentation - make it clear why they consider him to be a theosophist, and one of least some importance when compared to the founders of The Theosphical Society.

Do the readers not think so?

I do certainly not mind that people mention Samael Aun Weor on the page, but I find it wrong to place him in the paragraph under the subject "Theosophy", when he clearly deals with Tantric Yoga, - a teaching which is not the same as the most wellknown theosophical teachings given by any of the founders. It is in fact stated by the founders of the Theosophical Society that they opposed this teaching in many respects. (See Blavatsky views on the issue in The Theosophist, 1887 + 1888 and the articles by Rama Prasad - or - Blavatsky's Collected Writings, vol. XII p. 604, 611, 612-13, 621. Here H. P. Blavatsky warns aganist the Tantra Yoga teachings). The word "tantra" as such is almost only mentioned positively among theosophists (ie. members of the Theosophical Sociewty) when we talk about some very special Gelugpa Buddhist teachings given in some even today unknown edtions of a work called the Kalachakra Tantra. But this teaching is not called Tantra Yoga in any manner what so ever. If you call Samael Aun Weor a theosopbhist, then we aught also to call William Butler Yeats a theosophist as far as I am concerned. They spent just about the same amount of time on theosophical teachings and The Theosophical Society. But real real representatives of theosophical teachings or the Theosophical Society they they can hardly be called. - I would instead as an attempt of an improvement, that the Samael Aun Weor paragraph be given a section of his own named something like Neo-theosophy or New Age. But these are of course my views. - Who are the admin of the page Aryan Race? Why not mention the name somewhere related to the page? I thank you in advance for reading my words and giving me an answer. --Khidr7 (talk) 15:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Atlantean99, 8 June 2011

I would like the text on "aryan race" to be changed to include the theory of racial evolution which was popular in Europe during the 1930's something along these lines THIS INFORMATION HAS A RIGHT TO BE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN - PEOPLE MUST KNOW WHAT PEOPLE BELIEVED AND WHAT PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

EVOLUTION:

Africans left Africa approximately 115,000 to 150,000 years ago, groups of them moved to Scandinavia, India, Far East Asia & Australia. over 115,000 years In Scandinavia they evolved to Scandinavians. The Ice-Age happened but it is mostly a hoax by people claiming it was worse than it is, see this:

http://www.blavatsky.net/science/atlantis/emails/ice_age.htm

It is very possible than modern human could have lived and evoloved in Scandinavia during the first parts of the Ice-Age. They only moved out from there when it got to bad. Moving South into Europe.These Scandinavians had blonde hair, blue eyes & white skin developed because of the dark-icy environment. Then they moved down into Europe and settled in many parts before the Ice Age got worse. They then moved into Asia and mixed with the Indians they met there,, this formed the Arabs.(Arabs are mostly Indian with a small part Scandinavian, Light skin being dominant over dark skin). These Arabs then moved West into North Africa and from there North up in to Spain Italy and Greece, mixing with the Scandinavians already there which formed the basis of the Spanish, the Italians and the Greeks.Obviously brown hair and eyes being dominant over blonde hair and blue eyes which are recessive. that why so many europeans have these features

Because we (Europeans)are part Indian. slavic peoples are part mongoloid

The same thing happened in Far East Asia, Scandinavians mixed with orientals forming Chinese, Japanese types, the they moved West.

IF YOU WONT PUT SIMILAR INFORMATION TO THIS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN I WANT TO KNOW WHY NOT

IT IS FREEDOM OF INFORMATION WHICH IS A LEGAL REQUIREMENT

Atlantean99 (talk) 18:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this is straight from The Myth of the Twentieth Century. It's related to the Theosophical view. Paul B (talk) 19:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Bility (talk) 20:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

de Gobineau and Germany

The article as it reads gives a little too much credit to Arthur de Gobineau, I think, or we are talking about two different Aryan race theories. Commonly it means just the one associated with German nationlism and the Proto-Indo-European homeland, which was widely popular and easily arrived at by anyone. I haven't read de Gobineau and won't be reading any of his work, but I know Indo-European studies and haven't seen him mentioned that I can recall. Scholars usually just say that the Proto-Indo-Europeans ended up popular with German nationalists and the results were unfortunate. Nora lives (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

If you haven't read him or anything about him, I really don't see how you can say the article gives too much "credit" to him. This article is not about Indo-European studies, Proto-Indo-European or its homeland - it's about race. The homeland of PIE was not something that Gobineau was especially interested in, but race was. The homeland issue only becomes linked to race issue by later writers such as Gustaf Kossinna. Paul B (talk) 12:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Not about Indo-European studies? I'm sorry that you have read de Gobineau and are so interested in race. But you've told me all I need to know about him. Kossinna I have just looked at to refresh myself. Wikipedia is failing to adequatly cover the Aryan race in the popular culture of the 19th and early 20th centuries, focusing on these individuals instead. Also the Indo-Europeanists themselves could do with proper coverage, but that would require a lot of effort from a proper scholar. I see no evidence that one has spent a significant amount of time here. Nora lives (talk) 14:56, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

"I'm sorry that you have read de Gobineau and are so interested in race." What kind of idiotic remark is that? This is an article about a racial concept. That's why it is called "Aryan race". You should not be sorry that anyone is interested in anything, and you certainly should not be sorry that someone has read historically important works which had significant role in cultural history. You should read as much as possible. And what, pray, is "the Aryan race in the popular culture of the 19th and early 20th centuries"? Do you actually know anything about it? From your comments, you seem to know next to nothing. So I'm afraid I have no confidence in your capacity to judge who is or is not a proper scholar. As for Gobineau and Kossinna: there is one sentence on Gobineau and Kossinna is barely mentioned, so how on earth is the article "focussing on these individuals"? If anything, there should be more on them. It is also worth noting that it is not Wikipedia policy to concentrate on "popular culture" but on scholarship. Paul B (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Evidently you aren't very familiar with the policy here, and there was never any real scholarship on the Aryan "race". de Gobineau was no scholar as his article says, and Kossinna was incompetent. Coon tried and worshipped his Nordics like the rest. I've read him. These guys were jokes, and were part of the popular culture, still are. I'm sure you've been to the forums. Many of us have. I even learned to measure my own skull, but was never into the Nordic worship thing. Nora lives (talk) 18:46, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

That's a joke. There is a mass of scholarship on the "Aryan race" concept. It's very widely written about, from Poliakov in the 1970s to Arvidsson recently. Kossinna was anything but incompetent. He was a major scholar in his day. Gobineau was also hugely influential. However, you seem to be confusing the issue here. No-one imagines that the writings of these people are currently WP:RS. That would be absurd. Their scholarship as such is thoroughly obsolete. The scholarship we use is modern commentary on their ideas and context of it. Coon does not have a concept of the "Aryan" race, but he does have concept of the Nordic race, which is a purely biological concept (and again, a now obsolete one). It was the confusion of biological and ethno-linguistic arguments that Max Mueller criticised, as discussed here. Coon is utterly irrelevant to this article. Paul B (talk) 19:12, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Modern scholarship on the concept doesn't count. Sure there's tons of that. The closest we get today to what I'm talking about is the Kurgan Hypothesis. We're talking about different things. It's tiring. Nora lives (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

It sure is tiring. As I said in my first reply, this is not an article about modern Indo-European studies or about the PIE homeland. We have other articles on those topics, including the Kurgan theory and the Renfrew theory along with others. They each have separate dedicated articles. This is an article on the history of the concept of an "Aryan race". I'm sorry you find that difficult to understand, but it's really not so hard. Historians like Polaikov and Arvidsson are the appropriate WP:RS for discussing this historical concept and its influence. Paul B (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I never said that wasn't the case, but it should discuss popular culture, including romanticism, in Germany. Also the concept of the Nordic race is decades older than Coon, and the two had the same meaning. Nordic and Aryan were synonymous for many. You may be more familiar with the modern scholarship than with the early "anthropology". Nora lives (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I am very familiar with the history of the concept of the "Nordic race". The overlap of the two concepts is an important historical phase, but it becomes defined in the late 19th century. I'm not sure what aspect of German romanticism you are referring to, but the claim that German is somehow a "pure" descendent of PIE and that the Germans are supposedly a "pure" race was certainly linked to the race-language equation, and can be identified in embryonic form in Romantic era writers such as Herder and Fichte. That could be mentioned, for sure. Paul B (talk) 20:12, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

You're turning out to be well read for someone interested in racial theories, and now I'm liking you a little. The Germanic case system was thought to be degenerate by purists looking at Sanskrit and all, and some still think that way, but it was attributed to mixing with non-IE scum, and some believe it or not still think that way too. It was as much about purification. I don't have any of my sources available for the time being, and nearly all of them that would help here I haven't looked at for years. Thank you for coming up with Herder and Fichte because I am unfamiliar with them. I've only seen the general sequence of events discussed and Indo-Europeanists are very dismissive, so my sources probably haven't given me the most complete picture. Back to Kossinna, I can assure you he is treated with scorn today and I am pretty sure that some of his contemporaries considered him a bit of a twit. I know I've read that but don't remember if they were "in the majority". Nora lives (talk) 22:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not saying all pop stars are fools. The very rare one is pretty clever. Nora lives (talk) 19:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Nora lives, can you explain what you mean by "The article as it reads gives a little too much credit to Arthur de Gobineau". I don't understand. BashBrannigan (talk) 19:04, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I thought I did. The caption for the picture, which itself gives him prominence, could be better. Nora lives (talk) 19:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

pictures are often chosen, by what is available in the public domain. You may suggest a different caption, but pictures add to public interest in articles. BashBrannigan (talk) 19:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Neo-Nazism

I would like to just point out that section Neo-Nazism focuses entirely on some funny concepts created by the Western Neo-nazis (Americans, British). The rest of the world Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists have never heard of such things and do not even believe in something like that. They just believe that an Aryan race are all Whites, nothing less, nothing more. I've traveled through Eastern and Southern Europe and I know that Neo-Nazis there consider Aryans to be all White people. I've never met with any concepts of creating super-humans, sending anybody into space and so on. Please, change this section, it is misleading that all neo-nazis believe in such ridiculousness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.227.150 (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Requesting the unprotection of the article Aryan Race

The section on the Indo-Aryan migration needs to be edited as it incorrectly quotes a source which actually substantiates the occurrence of said migration on a genetic level. Therefore I am requesting that the article be made unprotected. Any questions?

Bodhidharma7 (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Kurds are Aryan

According to the sources below, Kurds are Aryan;

- "The Kurds and the state: evolving national identity in Iraq, Turkey, and Iran", Denise Natali, page: 127, Syracuse University Press, 2005. 
- "The Kurds and Kurdistan: a selective and annotated bibliography" , Lokman I. Meho, page:52, 1997.
- "Kurdistan: crafting of national selves", Christopher Houston, page:16, 2008.
- "Kurds, Arabs and Britons: the memoir of Wallace Lyon in Iraq 1918-44", David Kenneth Fieldhouse, 2002.

please make correction with adding Kurds in the section of "Origin of the term". The sentence must be like this: It was soon recognised that Armenians, Balts, Celts, Kurds and Slavs also belonged to the same group.

Thanks. Avanakapti (talk) 16:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)avanakapti , 6.10.2011

Edit request from , 8 October 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

According to the sources below, Kurds are Aryan;

• "The Kurds and the state: evolving national identity in Iraq, Turkey, and Iran", Denise Natali, page: 127, Syracuse University Press, 2005.
• "The Kurds and Kurdistan: a selective and annotated bibliography" , Lokman I. Meho, page:52, 1997.
• "Kurdistan: crafting of national selves", Christopher Houston, page:16, 2008.
• "Kurds, Arabs and Britons: the memoir of Wallace Lyon in Iraq 1918-44", David Kenneth Fieldhouse, 2002.

please make correction with adding Kurds in the section of "Origin of the term". The sentence must be like this: It was soon recognised that Armenians, Balts, Celts, Kurds and Slavs also belonged to the same group.

Thanks.

Avanakapti (talk) 17:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)avanakapti

As of now - 01:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC) - it says, It was soon recognised that Armenians, Balts, Celts, Kurds and Slavs also belonged to the same group. [1] - thus, I cannot see what you would like changed. If some other change is required (or I missed it), please re-request. Thanks.  Chzz  ►  01:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, problem solved. Now I able to edit this page but before I can not edit. I corrected it. Avanakapti (talk) 23:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)Avanakapti