Talk:Atheism

Atheism definition incorrect

• Moved from User Talk:JimWae#Atheism definition incorrect on 2011-NOV-16 by --JimWae (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Why is the atheism definition incorrect. Who decided to change the definition of a word??? Colloquial misuse does not define a word. It needs to be fixed and add a caveat which is perfectly acceptable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evictor480 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you looked at the sources given? Did you provide a source for yours? Your definition even suggested that atheism was incorrect--JimWae (talk) 00:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Atheism is the belief that an invisible man isn't looking down on us. They believe this because no one has ever seen this man, there is no proof that this man exists and most of all they are just not stupid. Come on, an invisible man? A talking snake and a virgin birth? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShmoreSchnops (talk • contribs) 22:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

We're not here to discuss why it's rational to be an atheist. Talk pages are not a forum. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 07:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Because atheism is not a statement of the validity of the claim "I know god exists" Atheism is the default position one takes when we reject all current evidence of existing god claims. Atheism is not a claim that there are no gods, the only atheists who say that are misusing the term. If you don't get the distinction then get the hell off of wikipedia.

I have checked more sources than you ever will I have been debating atheism with theologens, theists, fellow skeptics and atheist's for 10+ years.

No my definition in no way suggests atheism is incorrect. Atheism is neither correct nor incorrect, it is a position of rejecting a positive claim.

Your confusing agnosticism with atheism. It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you can prove. For any particular god that you can imagine, a “theist” is one who has a belief in that god. An “atheist” is one who does not have a belief in the god. A “gnostic” is one who believes that the god can be proved to exist, and an “agnostic” is one who believes that the god cannot be proved to exist.

Notice that the terms “atheist” and “agnostic”, by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don’t think one can prove the existence or nonexistence of gods, but you don’t choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn’t strictly true and there is no word to describe this. You could call such a person an “untheist”, perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a “gnostic atheist”, one who doesn’t believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.

So there are four possible ways one could be.

Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but it can’t be proved Gnostic-Theist: believes it can be proved that gods exist Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can’t be proved Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evictor480 (talk • contribs) 15:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Longer reply

You replaced:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.<ref-name=ref1/> In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.<ref-name=RoweRoutledge/> Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.<ref-name=religioustolerance/>

with

"Atheism" Is [sic] the postition [sic] of rejecting current [sic] available evidence for the existence of deities. Some use the atheism label to describe the personal opinion that there are no deities.

You removed 3 definitions (all of which have been accepted for almost 5 years in the edit history and each with a highly-reliable source) and substituted your own definition without providing a single source. Now you are saying that you are smarter than me, thus I (and all other editors of the page) should yield to your wishes. You know nothing about my qualifications, nor the history of the page. If you took some time to look at those, you might discover how to present your "arguments" with a little more humility. Before you lecture me again about agnosticism and atheism, etc, you might consult the edit history of those articles to see how long others have been debating these very issues within the context of writing an encyclopedia (to say nothing of other contexts). You are in for a lot of disappointment if you think those with other viewpoints should "get the hell off of wikipedia".

My preferred definition of the 3 is "rejection of belief" - but neither I nor anyone else gets to choose their own definition as the one to be endorsed by wikipedia. If you make atheism to be "rejecting current available evidence for the existence of deities" you are accepting that there IS currently available evidence. Rejecting belief in the existence of X is not the same as rejecting the existence of X - as you seem already to agree. Furthermore, if one rejects belief in the existence of X, one need not accept there is any evidence at all for X -- or one may say that one does not find the reasons people give FOR believing to be sufficiently persuasive. One might even reject belief because the whole idea of such an X is not in accord with what one sees in the world - or even does not make sense.

Rejecting evidence is a fool's game. Rejecting the claim that any evidence demonstrates the conclusion is a path that the agnostic atheist might take. However, he need not accept there is any evidence at all. Even numerous metaphysical theists argue that evidence (in the sense of "physical evidence") is not there.

That's just a start on why your substitution is weak. But, it is not up to me to "disprove" your version. The burden is on you to find support (in terms of sources and other editors) for any version such as yours. I refer you to WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and, again, to the top of Talk:Atheism-- --JimWae (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

The atheist position boils down to an affirmative belief that no such thing as God exists. This talk about non-belief being a default position is, and always has been, an exercise in hair-splitting. The real point of it, as everyone involved in the debate knows, is to shift the burden of proof from one party to another, when in fact neither side is capable of proving its position to the satisfaction of everyone. I think the current definition is fine the way it is - it mentions the orthodox atheist line on this subject without excluding other views. Carinae986 (talk) 07:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The first part truly confuses me as (1) a generalization, and (2) an odd comparison. Do you believe in green and purple striped two horned unicorns? Did you have an affirmative belief against such before I brought it up? I doubt you did. As for proofs, I don't recall proofs being submitted by atheists against the existence of a god or gods. The rest, I can agree with - even if in reality, there are many "definitions" people use to describe why they are atheists. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 01:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I aquired a positive belief that no such thing existed the moment you brought it up. By your analogy, an atheist would have to have never heard of God in order to have a mere absence of belief. Since atheists have, in fact, heard of such a thing as God, they do, in fact, have a positive belief that no such thing exists. I don't recall any proofs being submitted by atheists against the existence of god or gods either. Which makes one wonder how they can be so confident. Carinae986 (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and not on the opinions of individual contributors. Your comments are therefore irrelevant (and incidentally, illogical, but that is beside the point - this isn't a forum for discussing 'atheism' in the abstract). AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you didn't noticed that the original definition of atheism, which I was defending, is in fact sourced...? Or that your opinion is not? Please take a moment to review the etiquitte guidelines. You may find them informative. Carinae986 (talk) 05:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of philosophers' motives for conceptualising atheism negatively as opposed to positively, and regardless of whether or not it is legitimate to conceptualise atheism so that theism bears the "burden of proof", the fact remains that atheism has been conceptualised in that way by philosophers, in published, verifiable, reliable sources. For Wikipedia, that's what matters. Wikipedia is not the forum for resolving once and for all how atheism is to be conceptualised. It is a place where people can come to find out how atheism has been conceptualised. --Dannyno (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems that people have settled on the broad spectrum of atheism is rejecting religion and the narrow spectrum of atheism as rejecting religion. Makes sense... you know, not having any difference in broad or narrow. Also, Wikipedia seems to not be the place to get information on how it's actually conceptualized in modern times without bias either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.118.39.62 (talk) 06:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

need for revision & source problems in atheism/agnosticism distinction in 1st paragraph

As it stands:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists,[6][7] and with agnosticism, which leaves the matter of existence open.[8]"

Atheism and agnosticism are, of course, diametrically opposed; atheism and agnosticism can coexist. I'm not sure what the intent was, but it reads as though agnosticism is being positioned as rejection of both atheism and theism.

I would suggest something like "Atheism is directly contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists. It is also distinguished from but not incompatible with agnosticism, the view that the existence of a deity is unknown or unknowable." It would be worthwhile to make it clearly compatible with the agnosticism page it links to.

The sources for [8] also need to be cleaned up.

The Atheism and secularity source, first of all, mentions 'agnosticism' only in passing and offers nothing to support the claim it's offered as a source for.

The Encyclopædia Britannica Concise entry is different from the 2011 Encyclopædia Britannica entry only in that some detail has been removed; it should not be presented as though it is a distinct source offering additional support for the position.

I am mystified by the use of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica entry. Calling on an outdated version of an encyclopedia for non-historical purposes is just not good scholarship, especially when the topic is something like agnosticism: more that twice as much time has passed between the writing of the entry and today than between the original coining of the word and the writing of the entry.

Basically... it should be cut to only the 2011 Encyclopædia Britannica entry. Warm Worm (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been hugely active in the discussions of late, but I was surprised to find that excerpt in the lead. Skimming the page (but admittedly not reading every word), I see healthy opposition to its proposal due to content, wording, and sources. If I've missed somewhere that consensus was clearly established for the addition, please point me to it. Absent that consensus, I've removed the wording temporarily pending discussion. I'd like to reiterate the concerns of other editors that, even if the content is appropriate given our sources, the current wording is not, since it very directly leads the reader to conclude that "rejection of belief" and "absence of belief" do not "leave the matter of existence open". This proposed definition of agnosticism is quite clearly only contrasted with "strong/explicit atheism", so we can not make general statements such as this, particularly in the lead while detailing our other definitions with which it isn't contrasted. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:52, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Though your sentences contrasting atheism with theism and agnosticism seem lucid and clear, I opine we should lead this article with what atheism is, not with what atheism isn't. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 01:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed change to banner.

Wikipedia has no policy on respecting other's views. This phrasing in the banner is inane and false (I would direct you to Talk:Muhammad/images. I suggest a change to. "...supported by a reliable source and adheres to a neutral point of view."

Thoughts?--Adam in MO Talk 02:51, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Sentence Restructuring to First Paragraph for Accurate Conveyance

The last sentence in the first opening paragraph reads: "Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The sentence structure seems to convey the idea that theism itself asserts the existence of one deity while allowing for the possibility of more.

I recommend it be changed to "Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which (in its most general form) entails belief in the existence of one or more deities." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Synaptic Elucidation (talk • contribs) 08:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Why "entails" rather than "is"? How about "belief that a deity or deities exist", to not unduly emphasize an irrelevant matter of quantity? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

"Problem of Evil" As a Rationale For Atheism

I don't believe the problem of evil is a rationale for atheism (as stated in paragraph 3), let alone the most fundamental one (it is mentioned first). It is obvious that atheism is being defined on Wiki from an Abrahamic perspective, where God is perfectly good. Evil may exist in the world, and there may still be gods or creators of the universe. Rsokhi (talk) 13:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

We define rationale for atheism by what is mentioned in reliable sources. As an aside; the problem of evil represents a major issue for a class of Gods including the Abrahamic god, it is one of many rationales so I don't think it's a major issue to include it. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

should there be something about the people who help to spread atheist ideas

There is some information on the page about the people who write the books and about the social impact but what about the people who transmit these ideas. What about the acts and entertainers who stick their necks out to transmit these ideas to the public. They risk more than just being unpopular and I think they deserve some recognition for making a stand. I am preparing a page about pop group Foxy Freedom when I can find all the information. Have you heard of Penn and Teller the magicians? What about Derren Brown the magician and hypnotist? There is a filmed interview with Dawkins. Brown also did a tv show exposing psychics and another one when he visited the US to expose the tricks that faith healers use to fool people. He showed how to fool a crowd into thinking that a blind person had been cured. I know people who became atheists after seeing that on TV. So I feel that people who are risking so much should be recognised. Nevertheless, keep up the good work.Spread knowledge not ignorance (talk) 06:20, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

There is this: List of atheists. SkyMachine ⁽⁺⁺⁾ 07:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

This article is not meant to be a propaganda tool for atheism. Notable atheist thinkers, and the reception of them, should of course be mentioned, but your personal experiences about entertainers and magicians are not sufficient rationale for them to be included in the article. There are among other things issues of notability, undue weight and prevalence of reliable secondary sources to be taken into consideration. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Reference to "Religion for Atheists" gives it unsupported importance

The phrase "de Botton returns to the idea in his seminal work Religion for Atheists (2012)" seems to make a judgment on the importance of a work that was just published. How can it be a seminal work when it was just published?

38.98.192.82 (talk) 19:46, 9 February 2012 (UTC)helpy helperton Feb. 9, 2012

Agreed. I cut the offending adjective. eldamorie (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Atheism 3.0

Atheism 3.0 is surely just a branding exercise. There is little evidence/support that is a 'movement'. And the 3.0 label implies it is better than previous versions. The idea that religion can be used for positive social ends is hardly new, it is at least as old as Plato.

By all means if there is a current debate amongst atheists about using the positive elements of organised religion then it should be mentioned. Calling it Atheism 3.0 though a) gives it more credence than its support would indicate b) implies an ordinal improvement other forms of atheism and c) is in effect brand advertising on its behalf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.224.17 (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be based on two dead links. One of the quoted texts doesn't seem to mention Atheism 3.0 and the other seems a relatively minor mention. Perhaps it is undue weight? I can't check them fully as they are dead links IRWolfie- (talk) 20:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, the article was deleted because (as far as we had sourcing) the term was coined by one not-really-notable guy and not really covered elsewhere. I did a quick search on google scholar and only came up with these two: [1], [2]. Both are essentially Christian evangelism. I think we should absolutely cover the term if we have sources for it, but I don't really see any. I'll boldly remove the content until we can dredge up proper sources. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)