Talk:Æthelstan

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Note: Battle of Brunanburh is currently an empty page, voted for deletion. If anyone knows anything about it, now's a good time to do the article :) -- Sam

The page has been added to and appears healthy.

Children or no children?

In Policital and Military life, it is stated that Athelstan had no children of his own. However, in the next section, it is stated that "Athelstan's daughter Aelfgifa married Boleslav, King of Bohemia." So, did he have children or not?

As far as I can tell, other online sources confirm that Athenstan was unmarried, and I could find no source other than Wikipedia that he had any daughter named Aelfgifa.

It is generally accepted in the academic community that Athelstan had no legitimate children. It has even been suggested that this was dynastic policy, in order to allow his brother Edmund to succeed. Little proof for this (as of yet), though.

I'm planning to expand on this article considerably. I'll probably break it into sections:

• Sources
• Political Developments
• Athelstan and the Continent
• "rex totius Britanniae"

Comments/additions would be appreciated. Harthacanute 18:01, 21 Oct 2005 (UTC)

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Athelstan certainly did not have a daughter called Aelfgifa (or Aelfgifu) - she was the son of his brother Edward and is one of the many siblings of his mentioned in Athelweard's 'Chronicon'. Also as a general comment for this page I would certainly a section on charters - under Athelstan's reign for the first time we have evidence for a royal chancery, producing a series of charters that provide perhaps our best insights into the workings of his court and his imperial asperations.

I've added a little on Athelstan's administration, and touched on his charters, though not their wider implication. Perhaps someone who knows a bit about them could add something? Harthacanute 17:21, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've just completed my Part II ASNaC dissertation (part of which is forthcoming as an article) on kingship ideology in Athelstan's charters, so once I've finished my finals I'd be happy to add some information. Also I might do a bit of work on the Anglo-Saxon charters page...

Meaning?

" Only a year after his crowning he had a sister to Sihtric, the viking King of York." What does this mena? Shoould it read " Only a year after his crowning he gave a sister in marriage to Sihtric, the Viking King of York"?

Another children question

I keep seeing Alwara, the mother of Leofric (famous for being the husband of Lady Godiva) listed as Athelstan's daughter. Is this correct, or just a innacuracy that's spread around? - Indy Gold 19:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The king Æthelstan is not known to have had children. Of course, there are plenty of other Æthelstan's in C10th England with whom he might be confused, accidently-on-purpose, to improve a genealogy. Most obviously, there's Æthelred the Unready and Cnut's brother-in-law Æthelstan son of Thored, Ealdorman of York. The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England says of Leofric: "His family were perhaps related by marriage to that of Ælfgifu of Northampton, Cnut's first wife ...". Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that gives me some other things to look into as possibilities for her parents. I could definately see where accidental-on-purpose genealogy could have mixed up who was who online. Thanks again. :) - Indy Gold 21:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd think that the confusion predates printing, never mind the interweb; medieval people loved improving genealogies. I've corrected my brainstorm about Ælfgifu earlier. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Date of crowning

It strikes me as curious that the article states Athelstan was crowned in 924, yet the following picture of the crowning stone is date DCCCCXXV, that is 925. I'm certainly no British History scholar, but it would be nice to clarify this. Perhaps the date on the stone relates to a different event? --Daxav

Athelstan became king (but apparently only in Mercia) in 924. The stone refers to his coronation as king of Wessex, after the death of his half-brother Ælfweard of Wessex. Hope this helps, Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This article has absolutely no sources: I'm putting a tag up.--Dark Green 22:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This seems rather pointed. It's not as if the life of Athelstan is especially controversial. Perhaps the supposed Life of Athelstan is, but that's another story. Anyway, the article has a bibliography section which is a list of references by another name. Accordingly, I've removed the tag. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Athelstanobv.2.jpg

Image:Athelstanobv.2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The coin pictured in this article is incorrect. It is a coin of an earlier East Anglian king of the same name. Search under Aethelstan of England, not Aethelstan of East Anglia.

Name

In several places the Old-English name of Athelstan is spelled with eth (Ð or ð, pronounced like th in "the"). It is written with Thorn (Þ or þ) in this article, however. Can anybody check which letter must be used instead of "th"?

The two letters are completely equivalent in OE (unlike in Icelandic, where one is voiced and the other not) and hence the variation.

Another bogus child

Aethelstan had no daughter married to the son an heir of Guy, Earl of Warwick. First of all, in Aethelstan's time, there was no Earldom of Warwick, or for that matter, there were no earldoms at all. Likewise, there was no secular nobleman in England named Guy. There is no individual at the time named Reynburn, which is not an Anglo-Saxon name, or any other name. Someone just out and out invented this. There is no documented woman named Leonetta (little lion, but not in Anglo-Saxon - the English did not name their daughters after lions). There is no record that Aethelstan ever married and no record that Aethelstan had any children, daughter or son. The entire story is just made up. It has no basis in fact, and has never appeared in a reliable source. Agricolae (talk) 01:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you would be well served to actually READ the source material I cited. You say they are "not reliable sources". OK. Perhaps instead of deleting those refereces, it would be more intellectually honest to add a sentence to my edit; "these sources are refuted by " and then your own sources? Reynburn (or Reyburn, or Reyborn(e), I've seen several spellings) de Beauchamp, the father of Wegeat/Weyeth who was the father of Wigot/Wigod. So far, you've offered nothing other than "I said so" as proof. I would be happy to be proven wrong if you can actually point out some research? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Efeist (talk • contribs) 05:10, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I did actually READ the Warwick work before I responded (I couldn't find an edition of Burke's that matched your citation, but the Burkes' Guides of the 19th-century are valueless for pre-Conquest material, and frequently bogus for much of the post-Conquest era as well). I looked at the specific Warwick account. It is utter nonsense - the kind of family history fantasy that flourished before people treated genealogy as a scholarly discipline. It is the kind of 'research' that the field has dismissed as valueless for over 100 years (read just about anything John Horace Round has to say about the Burkes and their ilk). To even mention it gives it undeserved credibility. The Countess of WarwickSomeone simply made it all up.

On the Wikipedia pages involving infectious diseases, we do not present the 'vapours' theories of disease, and then indicate that other sources dismiss it - it is so utterly obsolete and known to be false that it does not merit mention. In pages on mammalian embryology, we don't cite sources that say you need to put wheat in the corner of the barn, get it wet, place a dark cloth over it, and mice will spontaneously generate. Piltdown man gets mentioned only as a historical fraud, not in the article about human evolution. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of everything anyone ever wrote about a subject. Only that which is reliable by the standards of modern scholarship. In this case, the material is obviously fabricated, it being evident from the nature of the sources, and the nature of the very information.

Again, there is no actual historical record that gives AEthelstan any child. There is no historical record of anyone named Guy in England at this time (foreign clergy, perhaps, excepted). There is no historical record of anyone named Reynburn in England at this time. There is no historical record of anyone named Leonette in England at this time. There is no historical record of anyone named de Beauchamp in England at this time. In fact, surnames were not used in England at this time. There was no such thing as an Earldom in England in AEthelstan's time. Warwick, as a geographical region, a County, had yet to be conceived of at this time. There is nothing except the existence of AEthelstan himself, in the entire account, that has any basis whatsoever in historical reality, and as such it can safely be removed without refutation. It is all so patently silly that modern scholars don't even waste time refuting it. That IS intellectually honest, which is more than can be said for the Countess of Warwick or the Burkes. Agricolae (talk) 20:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I did some more digging. As it turns out, the Countess of Warwick did not make it up, someone else did, a long time earlier (see Guy of Warwick noting particularly where it says he is a figure of legend, i.e. not historical reality). It was already known to be "altogether fabulous" a century before the Countess of Warwick and the Burkes wrote their books (see http://www.archive.org/stream/romancesofsirg1800turnuoft , p. xi, where it quotes Ritson). Agricolae (talk) 21:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Beoferlic and AEthelstan

Can anyone help with this query? I have been asked whether the Anglo-Saxon name of Beoferlic, for the current town of Beverley, East Riding of Yorkshire, was still being used during the reign of King AEthelstan 895 - 939, when he visited the tomb of St John of Beverley on his way to the Battle of Brunanburh. My view, is that it is reconciled with the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles being written in Old English between the mid 5th to mid 12th Centuries, but I can find no definitive information to confirm this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beoferlic (talk • contribs) 21:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Briton or Britain?

In the article's introduction, it says that his success in battles lead to him claiming to be the "first King of all Britain"...but surely, Britain didn't exist back then.

Wouldn't the actual claim be something more along the lines of "first King of all the Britons", as in the ancient Briton peoples? KoopaCooper (talk) 19:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

If you look at Athelstan's entry in the PASE (under Office and King) you can see some of the titles used. Charter S 411 says "Æðelstanus rex totius Britannie" (king of all [the island of] Britain). Royal propaganda rather than fact, but not entirely misleading. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Our man here on the radio

Those who aren't devoted followers of In Our Time just missed a programme on Athelstan - linky - with Melvin Bragg talking to Sarah Foot and John Hines. Interesting stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:50, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Name spelling

Throughout the text, the name is spelled either as Ae or AE with the two letters connected (don't know how to connect them here). One way should be used for ease of reading. Just a thought. 75.222.13.95 (talk) 09:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, though I am not clear which should be used. Athelstan seems to be more common when referring to him on Wikipedia, but the title of the article is Æthelstan. Also, changing it would not be simple, as it would have to be only in text, not in links, as these would not work if changed. On my computer, Alt-0198 works for Æ, but it is not exactly user friendly. Dudley Miles (talk)