Talk:Beersheba

Materials

• http://www.calcalist.co.il/real_estate/articles/0,7340,L-3514227,00.html

Changes of Hebrew definitions

See discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#New "twist and turn" as "Hebrew alphabet" is switched to "Hebrew languages" concerning appropriate uses of the word "Hebrew" here. IZAK 05:33, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Name

Transliteration into the 'Latin' alphabet (it's not really the Latin alphabet that English uses, since that didn't include W, etc) may now be standardized on "Beer-Sheva" in Israel, but in the vast majority of the English-speaking world, it is not yet the case. E.g., doing a web search, for pages in English, we get:

• about 480,000 for Beer-Sheva
• about 1,260,000 for Beersheba

And of course in books, which have a longer lifetime, it will be skewed even further toward "Beersheba". When it is the most common form in the English-speaking world, that will be the time to change. Noel (talk) 15:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I see different: 1,140,000 for "Beer Sheva," 247,000 for "Be'er Sheva", and 847,000 for Beersheba. But the google test is not a supreme guide for titles. Thus, I've opted to rename into Be'er Sheva since it makes it (immediately) most clear to the English speaker this isn't Beer vowelizationining (and also corrects the b to a v), and I think the clarity of the reader is what we should keep foremost in mind. El_C 14:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If your main concern was for the English-speaker to understand that it's not pronounced like the word Beer, I don't think the move was deserved. There is a sound file attached to the name anyhow, in the infobox. I think we should discuss what this article should be named before unilaterally moving it to whatever we like. I'll start a vote now. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I object to the vote and its irrational, anglocentric nature. Wikipedia is not a democracy, one should not be so hasty to vote, esp. so early-on. The city has no "B" in the Sheva (see Tel Sheva), phonetically. The Be'er makes the vowelization immediately clear, including when it's linked in other articles. Google hits are not a supreme authority when we're it comes to hundreds of thousands of hits being the minimum figure, and when this minimum figure is used by the govt. of the country the city is in. I am not interested in the spelling ecountered by individual editors so much and find it anectodal, and devoid of any of the rational considerations mentioned. El_C 07:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Article should be named...

Beersheba

The most common English spelling by non-Israelis, gets over 800,000 hits on Google. It's also more neutral toward the Arab name. Not used by any official Israeli sources.

1. Support (fairly known city worldwide, IMO it warrants using the world spelling as opposed to the Israeli one). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
2. Support The only spelling I had ever encountered before first seeing a National Geographic map. - Gilgamesh 14:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
3. Support, this is the international spelling of the name, as far as I know. --Panairjdde 13:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
4. Support: clearly most common name in English. Jonathunder 18:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
5. Support Especially since there is a substantial archaeological section for which Be'er Sheva would be contrary to usage. Septentrionalis 20:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Beer Sheva

The most common English spelling by Israelis, gets nearly 900,000 hits on Google.

• Support Only this one makes sense. The apostroph in Be'er is unnecessary. The fact that it's Sheva and not sheba should be obvious to anyone with a minimal knowledge of Hebrew or Israel. --Daniel575 21:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• This article is also aimed toward readers without a minimal knowledge of Hebrew or Israel. El_C 17:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with this. It meets between the official name and the 'b' name. Of course links should link to the correct spelling page, whatever the vote decides, because 50% of people will definetly spell it incorrectly. Flymeoutofhere 12:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• I think that the title should be written the way it's written on maps in english.82.81.15.97 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support the two parts of the name should definitely be written seperately as they are two seperate words. This is the original name, the official spelling, and the most common form. as far as being "neutral toward the Arab name", why not also be neutral towards the French or Italian names? AshcroftIleum 00:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support I too support the use of Beer-Sheva (the dash is not important). This is the most obvious spelling and it is the official spelling of the local Israel authorities. No one would dream of writing Bombay today, it is Mumbai. The local people of government has the right to decide on the name. BTW the name in Arabic is Bir Seba. Benqish (talk) 19:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Be'er Sheva

Not a common spelling, gets only 190,000 hits on Google. It is the official Israel Central Bureau of Statistics spelling.

1. given the fact that this spelling reflects the official israeli pronunciation of the city (after all, Be'er Sheva` is located in israel currently) and the official israeli government spelling (who has a right to tell a country how to spell something -- next thing you should tell the americans that they are misspelling Detroit, that they need to write Détroit), i think that be'er sheva (or be'er sheva`) would be the best choice. Dgl 13:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

   In English Wikipedia we use to write the names with English spelling. This is a policy, WP:NAME. If you want to contribute to this Wikipedia, you sould accept its rules, the same way people contributing to Hebrew Wikipedia do with Hebrew Wikipedia rules. Thanks.--Panairjdde 13:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

everyone has a right to express his view. there is an option here to support the official and proper spelling of be'er sheva` and i am merely indicating that.

You're right. And I am merely commenting on your opinion, that is "expressing my view".What's the point?--Panairjdde 14:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

1. This is Israel's official spelling. The city is now called be'er Sheva. We should not use the anchronistic english translation, the same way we use Zimbabwe, and not Rhodesia.--194.90.37.135 (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Support if this is the official spelling than that's what should go in an Encyclopedia! Dor the Great —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.227.102 (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Support Wiki's policy of using the "standard", but incorrect, spellings and names for foreign places only perpetuates ignorance. For example, would Wikipedia insist that Peking be the default correct spelling for the capital of the People's Republic of China? Peking was the only English spelling I knew 30 years ago... and we Americans "knew" (I was a kid at the time) that the correct pronunciation was the phonetic rending of "Peking". Spelling Koeln "Cologne" and spelling Wien "Vienna" just makes English speakers look too dumb to bother understanding the foreign place he or she is speaking about. Whatever. I live in Be'er Sheva, and see official signs every day in Hebrew, Arabic, and English with the town's name, and these signs indicate the English version is "Be'er Sheva". It would see that an encyclopedia that perpetuates, or at least mirrors, ignorance is not a tool for knowledge building 212.143.76.4 (talk) 19:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Questionable & intimidating

This "discussion" was very unwikipedia-like; the name remains grossly inaccurate as is' the rational. El_C 08:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Your point is as important as ours. If you want, propose a change in the name, but do not say it is non-NPOV. Furthemore, you did not explain why it is "Questionable & intimidating". Would you mind to explain better why you are opposing? Notice also that your point is wrong.--Panairjdde 13:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

My protest is above; as is the npov issue. Your link appears suspect, whereas mine, which examine each name its own (not just .uk), appears sound. Finally, even if it wasn't, it is not policy the go by the most common name when other important considerations exist. El_C 17:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia. If there are two formats, one the commonest in Anglo-Saxon world, and one commonest in non-Anglo-Saxon world, the first is to be used. And this does not constitute non-NPOV issue. Furthermore, you failed explaining why it is "intimidating".--Panairjdde 09:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I did not fail; see above re:instant polls. The .uk domain does not constitute the Anglo-Saxon world, and regardless, your interpertation is not grounded in policy and neglects the considerations noted above. El_C 12:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I now realize that Britannica uses Beersheba, so I presume there is a rationale behind its usage, even if the reason for it is not made clear anywhere in the article. So I withdraw my objection toward changing the name, but not my objection regarding Panairjdde's aggressive style. I'll be keeping an eye on his/her contributions to see if it's extended elsewhere. El_C 12:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, I have cautioned Nightstallion against what appears to be using RfM boilerplate to effectively suppress active discussions. Finally, there was no need for the RfM (that is for when an admin isn't present to assist in deleting the redirects). No one has requested for me to change to name back while the discussion was taking place, I'd have done so. El_C 18:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Panairjdde finds it ironic that I retracted, but I only found WB good enough and I don't really care that strongly on how accurate the English title is. It is not as if EB has more professional shcolarly resources, English language-wise, than the Government of Israel. I stand by everything I said: there is no b in Sheva and no ee in Be'er. The discussion was unresponsively & aggressively circumvented via the voting. And failing to assume goodfaith, maintaining I chose the npov tag randomally, clearly contradicts the facts recorded here. El_C 14:57, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

You are commenting here about things we discussed on my talk page, with people reading and not knowing what I actually said. Nice.

About Encyclopedia Britannica, it is much more authoritative about the way names are spelled in English culture that the government of Israel. I think the Oxford Dictionary of English would be more more authoritative of the Rome/Jerusalem/Seoul/Bangkok Dictionary of English — don't you agree? Instead, according to you, the Israeli Government should be more authoritative on the way English speakers should call a city which was part of English history well before the State of Israel was born. Am I wrong?--Panairjdde 16:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice? Again, I'm sure the govt. of Israel has the resources and that it consults dictionaries and experts in determining English names. El_C 17:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Listen, let's drop the "nice" thing and personal comments, ok? My point is that Beersheba had an important role in World War I Anglo-Saxon effort. They even made a movie about a war episode based around Beersheba (at the time in Ottoman Empire). That means that in English (and Australian) newspapers, the city was recorded as Beersheba. And it still is. Now, the Israeli Government decided its spelling in English (or better, the Romanization of the Hebrew name of the city) is Beer Sheva. Fine. The problem is that for the time being, the city is still known as Beersheba. With the uncorrect "b" instead of "v". Since we are here to adopt the commonest spelling, Beersheba will do. When Beersheba will fade out of common usage and be replaced with Beer Sheva, we shall replace it. Furthermore, once we write that the official Israeli Government Romanization is Be'er Sheva and keep the redirect from Beer Sheva, no-one will miss the city, right?--Panairjdde 17:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Both Be'er and Sheva have been used since the biblical days. The Israeli govt. position is sound, more so than the regime in Myanmar, which changed the name for political reasons. As google.com demonstrates, Beer Sheva is more common today. El_C 17:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I see our positions are not compatible. If you think the article should be changed, go for a request to move the article, or whatever else you see fit. --Panairjdde 17:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to request moves, I am an admin. Again, it's unlikely that I will edit this article, or revisit the issue further. El_C 17:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the role it played in WWI is more important than it's current 160,000 habitants? And what about the way it was pronounced since biblical days? In Hebrew, Arabic and Ottoman Turkish they call the city Be'er Sheva. It should stay that way. --194.90.37.135 (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I wrote this article some time back. This of course does not give my proprietary rights over it (this is a wiki). I titled the article Beer-Sheva and was surprised when it was changed. I feel strongly about the correct use of the English spelling of foreign words. Where the foreign word is the original the English must be no more than a transliteration. There are numerous examples of this. We now say Mumbai, the British Imperial Bombay is out. I drive a Renault - not a Renouh! And I live in Beer-Sheva and not anywhere else. Benqish 20:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Notice User:Panairjdde was banned from Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Community_sanction_noticeboard/Archive9#Community_ban_of_User:Panairjdde What has to be done to correct this article title to Be'er Sheva ? --Jarondl (talk) 21:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

stuff should be added

Since i don't know english well enugth i hope some one could add this in a good english : in Sports :

 Be'er sheva hold the second biggest Free style Wretling center (around 2000 people ) it is led by Leonid Shulman.
   The wresling scene is popular since many russian imegrants brought that from USSR.
   Most of the Russian kids  hi-school and school age 
     wore tought there this place took people from the poor areas of the city
   (D'alet nagal beka (at the creation area) ) and tought them for free.

be'er sheva sports centers :

  Hapoel be'er sheva (soccer)
  Macabi be'er sheva (soccer)
  Beitar Be'er sheva (soccer)
  Vasermil Stadium 
  Hapoel Be'er shva (greek - Romi wrestling ) 
  Macabi Be'er sheva (free style wrestling ) 
  AMI wrestling school (Alie'at megini israel ) - עליית מגיני ישראל -(The isreal imegrated defenders )

Acdemic :

 Goverment college (מגללה למנהל)
 The technical college.
 The Isreally  airforce college (aka Techni ) 
 The art and performence college .

In Moncipal or explenation  :

  Beersheva has 17 neighborhoods (?) (shcunot) that are:
    The Old city , schuna alef , schuna beit , schuna gimel , schuna dalet , schuna hei , schuna vav , schuna tet , schuna tet , shuna  yud alef , Neot lon , Neve zeav , Nahal beka , Nahal ashan , ramot ,darom , Minal azrahi .

Historical places :

 Govrer house , Beit Eshel , Turkish bridge , Abrham weal , Turkish train station , british policy station british grave yard .  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.11.177 (talk) 15:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC) 

...pig praising?

A paragraph about palestinian terrorism contains the following sentence: "In 1972 Beersheba was proclaimed by Checkaredo Vistella as the place of pig praising but is no longer used for such purposes."

Can anyone make sense of that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robost (talk • contribs) 11:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

shechunot

I'm not sure I would categorize the recent "explanation" for not having a Shechunat Zayin or a Shechunat Het as vandalism. When you think about it, this might well be true, but probably falls into the category of folklore. If the English were fixed up a bit, I think it could stay. The question is whether it is based on any source known to man--Gilabrand 14:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Link to diary

Adding this kind of sentence in the middle of a history section is not the proper link procedure. --Gilabrand 15:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)84.109.56.209 11:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There is an excellent,illustrated,60-page English,pro-Beersheba website located at: www.mynegev.co.il and just click on the red "MyBeerSheva" button and "English". It would make an excellent link for the Wikipedia, because the information is based on published sources that are cited or first-hand knowledge. Enjoy! Ethelea Katzenell, Beersheba 84.109.56.209 11:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"Last successful cavalry charge"... pff

Isbuschenskij, none? Savoia Cavalleria against a Soviet infantry regiment, winning and taking prisoner, in August 1942? Ah, ok, they weren't Anglo-Saxons, so they do not count... And still later: Soviet cavalry massacring the surrounded Germans at Korsun (1944) doesn't count?

Basil II 15:09, 5 November 2007 (CEST)

Quite right in fact. There is a common misconception, particularly by Australians, that the charge of the lighthorse was the last great cavalry charge in history. I think the lighthorse article itself says it was the last great cavalry charge in british history. In fact, the lighthorse are described by its own article as "cavalry and mounted infantry". The LAST cavalry charge was by Ukrainians,yes? Paul Roberton (talk) 07:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Beersheba GA

Hi - I think this article is really getting close to GA status. If there are editors who are knowledgable on the city who are willing then I am happy to help, although really dont know much about the city.--Flymeoutofhere (talk) 20:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If someone mind

Refactored from page top, please put new threads at the bottom. Franamax (talk) 22:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Hello, I think that this picture compliment the city more than the existed. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/he/thumb/1/1a/Citybeersheva.jpg/250px-Citybeersheva.jpg If someone mind to fix my error,and upload this image and replace I'll thank him very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talss56 (talk • contribs) 20:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll look at this. If you managed to upload an image, there should be an Image:(name) that you can put in. Franamax (talk) 22:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like you've uploaded it onto the he:wiki. You would need to upload it to Commons in order to be able to use it here at English Wikipedia. However, the existing image in our article looks to me to be of better quality, and I'm not sure what your proposed image would add. Is there something notable in your image? Otherwise, I would recommend we keep the image that's already there. Franamax (talk) 22:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

changed "terror attacks" to "suicide bombings and rocket attacks"

more encyclopedic and descriptive than the 'word to avoid' "terror." this seems obvious. untwirl(talk) 05:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

So what about shootings and stabbings? Shall we add that to the caption?--Gilabrand (talk) 05:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

If the attacks that are described in the section are widely described as "terrorist attacks" by reliable sources they can be described as such here. nableezy - 06:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

lapsed pacifist - please stop adding the meaningless adjective 'later' to the section heading. This is a history section, and the events are laid out in chronological order. Every such event is 'later' and its pointless to say so. LoverOfTheRussianQueen (talk) 02:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Then we ought to use the description at the top of the section, otherwise we're giving the impression that these attacks were the first to inspire terror in Beersheba. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

i don't think the assertion that rocket attacks were widely called terrorist attacks is supported by the reports; the majority that i have read don't. every other wp article dealing with rockets into israel calls them rocket attacks. why the exception here? i'm sure there are some sources that call it both, but all of them will call it a rocket attack. by this point, my impression of the mainstream media's reporting was that they considered hamas a combatant in the gaza war and used terminology like, "hamas launched missiles" and not, "hamas terror attacks."
also, i don't see any shootings or stabbings in the section i'm discussing, so i'm not sure to what gilabrand's comment refers. untwirl(talk) 19:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

LoverOfTheRussianQueen has been blocked as a sock. Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 13:11, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Events without source

I took out from the article accusations without source. These events do not sourced by Benny Morris. However, an anonymous insist putting it back without reading the source. Chagai (talk) 21:43, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Morris does in fact say this in 2 separate books: 1948: A history of the first Arab-Israeli war does on p 328:

A number of POWs were murdered by Ninth Battalion troops bent on avenging fallen comrades

and on p 467 of The Birth of the Palestinian refugee problem revisited:

The conquest was accompanied by the execution of a handful of Egyptian POWs, and wholesale looting by individuals and military units.

nableezy - 21:59, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Pay attention. Morris does specify the looting for this event, which I left in the article. However, a sentence like "as they had done elsewhere", does not appear there, and need a verified source. It seems like in every place there was looting, which of course is incorrect. The execution of POW's is highly debated, and Morris is not authorised historian to decide if it is true or not. The discussion should continue here. I am recovering the anonymous, he should say what he have to say here. Chagai (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I am paying attention, perhaps you should try a bit more to follow your own advice. Morris documents a huge number of cases where looting had occurred, but that is not really all that important for the article. But Morris is qualified to say whether or not the POWs were executed and both books are solid reliable sources published by academic presses. You cannot say that the events are not sourced to Morris and then say that even though it is in Morris it does not count. The portion that you removed dealing with executed POWs should remain. nableezy - 22:41, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

And you just violated the 3 revert rule. nableezy - 22:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, the IP continue reverting after warning. I suggest you block him immediatly.

As to your points. The fact "Morris documents a huge number of cases where looting had occurred" can not justify a sentence like "as they had done elsewhere". First, what happened in other places is not related to the article on the city. Secondly, from it you can figure out it happened in any other place, which Morris NEVER said.

As for the execution, you can word it "According to Benny Morris..." so it will not sound as the absolute truth. There are other historians, not less respectful, that have different findings. Chagai (talk) 23:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Like I said above, I do not have a problem removing "done elsewhere" as it is "not really all that important for the article". And if there are other reliable sources that dispute that Egyptian POWs were executed add them. nableezy - 23:15, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

ref error

Resolved

In the back and forth between the ip and Chagai, a reference was screwed up. The last reference in the Biblical era section was messed up. The tag currently reads <ref name="autogenerated1" /> where it should read <ref name="autogenerated1" /> (look at the code and replace the quot; with the ampersand before it with ") Could somebody please fix this? nableezy - 22:25, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

1948

This is what Morris writes:

The conquest was accompanied by the execution of a handful of Egyptian POWs, and wholesale looting by individuals and military units.
In Beersheba, the IDF had captured about 120 Egyptian soldiers. The remaining population, some 200 adult males and 150 women and children, were temporarily housed in the town's police fort. A few days later, apparently on 25 October, the women and children, 'together with several dozen old men and cripples', were trucked to the border with Gaza and shoved across. The Egyptian PoWs were sent to prisoner of war camps in the north and the remaining able-bodied adult males, about 120 in number, were put to work in cleaning and other menial chores. They were treated like POWs and housed in the mosque. Complaints reached IDF\GS that they were supplying the Egyptian Army with intelligence. Yadin ordered that they be removed from Beersheba. Some were apparently transferred to POW camps and others to Egyptian-held Majdal or Gaza. Ben Gurian and Shafrir, the Custodian of Absentees Property, were greatly annoyed by the looting.

Gilabrand changed "wholesale looting" to "instances of looting" where the text clearly supports "wholesale looting". She also changed "the women, children, disabled, and elderly were expelled by truck and placed over the Gaza border" to "they were transported over the Gaza border by truck", where "they" also refers to the Palestinian adult males, when the text clearly supports the original wording and contradicts her favored phrasing. The one part of what she removed that is not supported by this source is "one woman was shot and killed". I will keep that out, but the rest of this is simply whitewashing what happened. The source clearly supports the original text and I have restored it. nableezy - 20:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Apparently the source is not saying either of what your edits said. Please refrain from personal interpretations, especially on controversial topics (this goes to both editors). In addition, I am sure there are better sources dealing with the situation in Beersheba in 1948 than Morris's Revisited. In fact, Morris's own 1948 is probably a better source to use (since it discusses the war in general, not specifically the refugee aspect), but there are others. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 04:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Besides the woman being shot, which I did not notice the first time I reverted, what in the last edit is not in the source? nableezy - 05:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC)