Talk:Monarchy of the United Kingdom

Out of place statement?

Maybe it's just me but I fail to see the relevance of the last statement in this list to the "Constitutional role" section:

"Thus the acts of state done in the name of the Crown, such as Crown Appointments,[7] and even if personally performed by the Monarch, such as the Queen's Speech and the State Opening of Parliament, depend upon decisions made elsewhere:

• Legislative power is exercised by the Crown in Parliament, by and with the advice and consent of Parliament, the House of Lords and the House of Commons.
• Executive power is exercised by H.M. Government, which comprises Her Majesty's Ministers, primarily the Prime Minister and the Cabinet. They have the direction of the Armed Forces of the Crown, Her Majesty's Civil Service and other Crown Servants such as the Diplomatic and Secret Services (the Queen receives certain foreign intelligence reports before the Prime Minister does[8]).
• Judicial power is vested in H.M. Judges, who by constitution and statute[9] have judicial independence of the Government
• The Church of England, of which the Monarch is the head, has its own legislative, judicial and executive structures.
• Powers independent of government are legally granted to other public bodies by statute or statutory instrument such as an Order-in-Council, Royal Commission or otherwise.
• Apart from members of parliament and local authorities, no public officers are elected."

I'm not seeing how that last statement fits in with what powers are delegated from the Queen to others. What is this trying to say? Ltwin (talk) 20:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Restrictions by Gender and Religion: Review

Please provide Wiki users the courtesy of explaining your deletorious behaviour! Private and Confidential (talk) 10:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Cool it. I think its excessive for the lede, I am open to slightly better worded text in the main body. If your edit is reverted you should not edit war, but instead propose the change here so that other editors can get involved —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowded (talk • contribs) 11:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I am perfectly cool, Snowded! I do not need "commands" from you..let's start.

I humbly advocate the following to be inserted appropriately:

The head of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, said under the Act's terms, Prince William "can marry by law a Hindu, a Buddhist, anyone, but not a Roman Catholic" and still be king. The relevant part of the Act states: "That all and every person and persons, who shall or may take or inherit the said Crown, by virtue of the limitation of this present act, and is, are or shall be reconciled to, or shall hold communion with, the See or Church of Rome, or shall profess the popish religion, or shall marry a papist, shall be subject to such incapacities." Private and Confidential (talk) 10:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Use words like "deletorious" and you will frequently be asked to cool it. While I am at it please read WP:INDENT, I've done it for you above. Where do you want to insert that text? I'm happy with it although I don't think we need to quote the full act. --Snowded ^TALK 10:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The wording is still excessive: a pronouncement from one Archbishop of Westminster in a general article covering the whole concept of monarchy in the United Kingdom seems to fall into the WP:RECENT and WP:UNDUE pitfalls and shouldn't be included.--Old Moonraker (talk) 10:46, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for indentation, Snowded. Welcome to further editors. This is good, if I may, Moonraker but let's call it what it is, please. It is a statement of the law as currently pertains in the UK, quoted with the BBC, hardly a pronouncement, and its purpose is to refer to relevant practical implications for current concerns with "Succession". I have no real objection to the point remaining but we not crediting the Archbishop for it since I am not sure he is the originator of the point. However, I defend the point's importance for relevancy to the article and I suggest the article is weaker without it.

I advocate inserting the text after this entry:

Roman Catholics and spouses of Roman Catholics are prohibited from succeeding. Private and Confidential (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

How about

"Roman Catholics are prohibited from succeeding to the thrown, and if a member of Royal family marries a Catholic then they are removed from the line of succession. This has caused resentment, the {{Archbishop of Westminster]] stating Prince William "can marry by law a Hindu, a Buddhist, anyone, but not a Roman Catholic" and still be king."

I think that is balanced and not excessive. It is important in understanding the monarchy--Snowded ^TALK 11:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion in this article of this subject should only be brief, because Wikipedia:Manual of Style (summary style) applies to this article. The detail is given in two other articles: Act of Settlement 1701 and Succession to the British throne. I'm also not keen on "this has caused resentment" because it hasn't caused resentment in any actual member of the royal family or the public at large since about 1807. DrKiernan (talk) 11:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It causes resentment in the Catholic community so its worth of inclusion, and it is a hang over which a lot of international readers will not be aware. I have made it brief - any alternative suggestions? --Snowded ^TALK 11:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

You know when members of the royal family feel resentment do you good Doctor..!?

Let's be clear. I don't think talk of resentment is helpful, if indeed it does exist among people whatever their beliefs. This is new and pertinent factual information, sorced from the BBC, to strengthen this article. It's addition is designed to raise the level of knowldege around this part of the article, I suggest it is not complete without it and it is not mentioned elsewhere in the article. So in the interests of factual accuracy and balance let's work out how to include it in a way that serves Wiki users. Private and Confidential (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

On the first sentence of Snowded's draft, the article already says that Catholics were and are still excluded. I don't see why we should repeat the same point.

On the second sentence of Snowded's draft, it would need to say who resented it if placed in the article.

On P&C's draft, it is unnecessary to quote the act in a summary article. DrKiernan (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

OK so lets add the Archbishops comment (its pretty obvious who resents it) into the section "Restrictions by gender and religion" --Snowded ^TALK 11:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Let's call it what it is, please. The comment is a statement of the law as currently pertains in the UK, quoted with the BBC, and its purpose is to refer to relevant practical implications for current concerns with "Succession". Any perceived "resentment" is yours.I think it is useful and worthy of Wiki users to include the text as I penned it. The comment is made today in our modern, multi-denominational society and refers to a point of contemporary legal statute, which is relevant to this article and subject: that only one section of the community, it happens to be Catholics, and no other on the grounds of religion is excluded by this Act of 1701.

Please consider appropriate wording modifications.

Private and Confidential (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘It is a wider issue though. Only practising Protestants in communion with the Church of England can inherit. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc, are all excluded from succession not just Catholics. The provision that the Archbishop is talking about is only about the marriage of Protestants to people of other religions, where the only excluded religion is Catholicism. Perhaps the sentence "Roman Catholics and spouses of Roman Catholics are prohibited from succeeding." should be "Protestants married to practitioners of other faiths are not excluded, unless their spouse is a Roman Catholic." The preceding sentence already says that Catholics (and all other religions except Anglicanism) are excluded. This has slipped by without comment before because it's not much of an issue, and hasn't actually affected the succession in any way because everyone's forgotten the last time a non-Protestant married into the direct line of succession. Presumably Philip wasn't legally obliged to convert from Greek Orthodoxy, though his article tells us that he did anyway. Given the wider restriction against all religions except Anglicanism, why then focus on a complaint about a specific religion? Isn't the debate (if there is any, as I think most people are agreed) about whether to remove all the restrictions, not just the restriction against marrying a Catholic? DrKiernan (talk) 12:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Umm, but it is the case that the English Monarchy is (post the "Glorious" revolution) in part defined by anti-catholicism so it is significant --Snowded ^TALK 12:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Historically, of course, but I'm asking about the modern debate, which the new material attempts to address. Is it focused on the marriage to Catholics by royals in the line of succession or is it actually about disestablishment and religious equality? DrKiernan (talk) 13:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The new material is relevant to knowledge about "Restrictions by gender and religion" which occur in the UK Monarchy hence its place within this article. If you wish to widen the debate to the benefit of users, I, for one, look forward to your contribution.. Private and Confidential (talk) 13:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

...so it appears no widening of the debate yet...are we edging any closer to a form of wording that resonates as fit-for-purpose with interested parties? Inactivity is unhealthy..so your views in a timely fashion please.Private and Confidential (talk) 18:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Exclusion of professed Roman Catholics under the Act of Settlement is different from exclusion of those who are neither protestant nor Roman Catholic. Catholics are excluded "forever"; anyone else would have the opportunity to declare themselves a protestant, conform to the Church of England, and take the throne. Notice that George I was not an Anglican on August 1, 1714. john k (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced that this section merits expansion, particularly with the proposed wording. There is no organised campaign for reform; there are no plans for reform; there is no public debate on reform. The report quoted by P&C is from 2007 and implies that Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor is pro-reform. More recent reports say otherwise, e.g. "Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor and Bishop Kieran Conry of Arundel and Brighton, have said they do not think it is a major issue for most Catholics."[1] DrKiernan (talk) 20:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's a major issue for anyone, Catholic or not, probably because few people are aware of or understand the restrictions in the succession laws, or even have a great interest in the monarchy in general. Nevertheless, that does not make the issue any less notable. Gazzster (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The exclusion is covered in the article. The question is over whether the current coverage should be expanded to include an unrepresentative out-of-date report and a quote from the Act. I still don't see any good arguments for either one. DrKiernan (talk) 07:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

My view is non-different from the view stated by an earlier editor in this discussion, John Kenney: "Exclusion of professed Roman Catholics under the Act of Settlement is different from exclusion of those who are neither protestant nor Roman Catholic." This is a fact which is communicated by the, one sentence, current day comment on this I suggest we include. I find I agree with Gazzster: this is not a major issue but it is notable: and so I recommend that it deserves a fair, precise, well-sourced and comprehensive treatment in the article. My contribution (sourced from recent BBC coverage) moves in this direction towards fuller understanding. I suggest, after the current day comment, we include the relevant actual wording of the Act - one sentence albeit a somewhat lengthy one - because it is just that: the actual relevant words of the Act from 1701. I don't see the drama in this perhaps others do. My view is that this article is markedly improved through raising/sharing relevant material, by including these two sentences, to increase knowledge among Wiki users. Further thoughts from editors please..Private and Confidential (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

My evidence is sourced from more recent coverage in the Catholic press, and shows that the one sentence quote is not representative of either Catholic opinion or Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor's opinion. Per policy at WP:UNDUE, articles are weakened not strengthened when material is weighted towards an unrepresentative view, which even the quoted authority no longer appears to hold. DrKiernan (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

...can we get some more views on this..please..I really don't want to get into an "evidence" discussion where there isn't one..but in the interests of making some progress on this:here goes, briefly. The view the Cardinal expressed in 2007 with the BBC is not contradicted by his saying, before, at the same time or after that this is not a major issue for Catholics. Change to the Act of Settlement is not a major issue for most if not all people, including Catholics, apart from it would seem the very few like the good Doctor for whom this appears strangely motivating. The Cardinal's view is not "unrepresentative" Dr. He is voicing UK LEGAL FACT, held to a person uniformly throughout the entire UK legal profession that: Prince William "can marry by law a Hindu, a Buddhist, anyone, but not a Roman Catholic" and still be king." If you are going to get into an evidence based validation for your objection to my right to pursue a factual strengthening of this article, Dr , then I think you might do better than assuming one quote is going to do it. But if you do then think one quote works you might try to pick one that actually does what you claim: a quote that says he withdraws his observation that Prince William "can marry by law a Hindu, a Buddhist, anyone, but not a Roman Catholic" and still be king." No such statement exists and the reason is obvious. Since the law has not changed since he made the statement with the BBC in 2007 it follows that it would be absurd for he or anyone else for that matter to deny that Prince William "can marry by law a Hindu, a Buddhist, anyone, but not a Roman Catholic" and still be king." since it was then and is now a binding LEGAL FACT. This comment is as representative of mainstream opinion as it is possible to be since it is an unequivocal statement of UK statutory law. It is an impossibility in this case for policy at WP:UNDUE, articles are weakened not strengthened when material is weighted towards an unrepresentative view, which even the quoted authority no longer appears to hold. to be relevant to this discussion. I do not want to get sidetracked in these sorts of clarifications. Perhaps I can make a suggestion. I sense that the real problem may be that it is the Head of the Catholic Church in the UK who has made the statement. Perhaps some industrious and talented Wiki editor can find the same point made by a Chief Rabbi, a High Court Judge, an Attorney General. Someone in authority who can equally well state the simple truth. We can include their words. People, please..let's come together to agree a form of words so Wiki users don't have to be kept in the dark on what I expected would be a clearly sensible and uncontroversial insert via the BBC, based as it is in both sentences on LEGAL FACT. Over to Wiki users..Private and Confidential (talk) 23:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

On a matter of fact, the Cardinal did not say that in 2007 or give an interview to the BBC. The article states that the Cardinal's comment was "In the past.."

On the matter of the quote from the Cardinal: as I have already said, the problem is that it implies he is pro-reform. That is an unfair implication.

On the matter of a non-Catholic source for a similar quote, there is already one: the Act itself.

On the matter of inclusion of a quote from the act: the article already states that heirs married to Catholics are excluded. There is no need to repeat the same point; it is already covered. Articles should not repeat material unnecessarily. DrKiernan (talk) 07:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

P&C - I don't think you are getting enough support at the moment to indicate that a change is likely. I don't think its valid to argue that the issue is a lack of concern to the population as I expect that is true of large parts of this article. The question related to what is relevant in the context of the article itself. At the moment I think it is unbalanced as it treats the exclusion of catholics as an incidental matter. It has been subject over the years to riots, the odd constitutional crisis (as recently as Prince Charles when it was rumored that he might marry a catholic). I think there needs to be a sentence or two that reflects that, maybe not the quote from the Cardinal (although the fact it is 2007 is not important, there are many older items in comparable pages on the wikipedia)--Snowded ^TALK 08:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok Dr let's play. Our Doctor informs us:

(1)(his words:)On a matter of fact, the Cardinal did not say that in 2007 or give an interview to the BBC. The article states that the Cardinal's comment was "In the past.." Mmmm. Not only has our Doctor claimed earlier in this discussion to know the feelings of members of the Royal Family past and present (since 1807, Doctor I think you said) He now tells us that he knows what a Cardinal said and did not say in 2007. Quite the capable fellow. He further tells us the Cardinal did not give an interview to the BBC when the BBC Archive Department will tell you otherwise. For the record, I have not said this comment on this occasion was sourced from an interview conducted between the Cardinal and the BBC. The reference I included is from within a BBC article, found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6275011.stm

(2)(his words:)On the matter of the quote from the Cardinal: as I have already said, the problem is that it implies he is pro-reform. That is an unfair implication. Mmmm. Any implications you have identified from the comment are yours. I agree it is an unfair implication: made repeatedly by you. The actual comment is only a statement of the legal reality: nothing more.

(3)(his words:)On the matter of a non-Catholic source for a similar quote, there is already one: the Act itself. Mmmm. So let's include the line from the Act..!!??

(4)(his words:)On the matter of inclusion of a quote from the act: the article already states that heirs married to Catholics are excluded. There is no need to repeat the same point; it is already covered. Articles should not repeat material unnecessarily. Mmmm. So now a line in the text is better than the original in the Act..(?)Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia where the most acccurate, factual sources are considered valued above others. I will hope, for Wiki sake, to hear better objections than these. Can we open this up..it is healthier if we have many contributions to this discussion.

Snowded, hello. I don't agree with your analysis. Editors here have made useful contributions, among them notably Gazzster and john k. which seemed to indicate support for a form of words WHICH WE ARE MEANT TO BE ARRIVING AT..(no more sidetracking please)Furthermore the UK Monarchy article is not a history paper. The Monarchy is a feature of our current lived experience so let's look at the article from this perspective as well as the history. My points are to provide fuller knowledge for Wiki users and are LEGAL FACTS not historical opinion. Good to see you back in this discussion. More contributing editors please. Private and Confidential (talk) 09:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it makes sense that a note about the exclusion provisions of the succession laws should be accompanied by a comment by the highest ranking Catholic in the United Kingdom. You would expect him to comment. But standing alone, it might seem that it is a concern only for Catholics. So perhaps we should include some well-chosen quotes from other notable persons. Didn't Gordon Brown recently make some comment? And haven't private bills been introduced to change the laws? Has anybody tried to go to the EU with human rights concerns?Gazzster (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

How many times must it be said: these points are already covered in the daughter articles. See Act of Settlement 1701#Present debate and Succession to the British throne#Changes. The section in this article is a summary of those articles. DrKiernan (talk) 07:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

This article within this subject is not beyond improving: it is appropriate to the spirit and the usability of Wikipedia that we seek to identify where improvements can be made for Wiki users..I don't agree with the Dr.: The section in this article is a summary of those articles, [see previous entry in this discussion]. It isn't. Or at least I think it should be better than that, more than just a summary of material in daughter articles. It is its own article under its own title. I think if we allow it to be reduced to just a summary that tends to be quite a weak approach to information building within an article. A balance must be found where useful relevant data is accessible within the article relevant to its title. Information made available to Wiki users at the point at which they may expect to find it without having to be required to search daughter articles, makes sense, I suggest. Let's seek to be disciplined in what we include, I respect the line Gazzster takes towards fuller understanding. I suggest the article is too weak to be fit-for-purpose as it is now. It simply does not succeed in informing Wiki users about Restrictions by Gender and Religion in the Uk Monarchy adequately. We should strengthen it in its accuracy and relevancy to its title...more contributions on this from editors very welcome...Private and Confidential (talk) 11:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I have not been following this debate and not read through all of the comments here. What i do not understand is the problem with the present wording? It mentions in the introduction that Roman Catholics are excluded still, the section on succession also covers it. Where is the problem? This article is also a Featured article so others must think it was fit for purpose. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

BritishWatcher, welcome to this discussion. I hope you will have, by now, given yourself/had someone help you with the appropriate care and time required to exercise the courtesy of reading the comments of editors who have made contributions to this discussion so far. If so, you will have traced the genesis of this discussion taking place and you will be aware that we are discussing a review of a section of this article. More precisely, what is being discussed is a form of words to be included in a sensible way which serves Wikiusers better in their quest for knowledge/understanding of an aspect of reality relating to the Uk monarchy...in the hope of making useful progress...any other views...from anyone...Private and Confidential (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Well P&C I read through the discussion (wasted 10 minutes of my life) and I'm still struggling to grasp what the problem is. Please see WP:SUMMARY as it seems you don't understand that this this is a feature of Wikipedia. Ltwin (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I am looking for concrete, reasoned arguments for preventing inclusion of this detail. My case is that Wiki users benefit more from the two line adjustment I advocate than the current form. The line from the cardinal is relevant as is the line from the Act: both are well sourced and more accurate than the current wording and so strengthen knowledge within the article. I am going to open this up to suggestions as the article remains weak/improvable in this point and then it should move on for consideration to the next level in the interests of Wiki users who value better information over worse Private and Confidential (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC).

Looks like this argument has indeed moved on for consideration to the next level, P&C! This arcane law which so many sensible folk have known to be absurd for so long is becoming fit for the modern world. No gender bias against females succeeding and no religious bias against marriage to Catholics. Correction passed unanimously by all Commonwealth Heads of State. Happy to see this wiki article is now accurately updated and fit for purpose too. Bravo!Equitytriumphs (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:53, 28 October 2011 (UTC).

The republican Commonwealth of England

The current wording:

"the tradition of monarchy was broken by the republican Commonwealth of England"

seems a rather coy description of the regicide -- which rather cuttingly ended the debate over the divine right of kings -- and "republican Commonwealth" was described otherwise by W.C as:

"the triumph of some twenty thousand resolute, ruthless, disciplined, military fanatics ..."

I think the sentence carries a simplistic point of view and glosses over one of the most influential periods in formulating the current position of the Monarchy in the UK constitution. -- PBS (talk) 11:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Wealth of the Crown

No-one really knows what this is. The jewels I have heard valued at £2billion, the art the same. But the real, huge value is in the land, especially the land abroad. According to an American friend of mine the Crown one on the biggest landowners on the island of Manhattan. The rent from that must be very substantial. Also, on last night's Channel 4 news it was said that of the 20 biggest tax havens in the world the Crown owns 14. Again the income form these must very considerable as tax havens for the super-rich to dodge tax can't come cheap. Obviously none of this is good enough for an encyclopedia but I may try and do some digging. If any other editors are interested in this please leave me a message. SmokeyTheCat 13:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but most of what you've just written is wrong. David (talk) 16:51, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The idea that the Queen personally or through the Crown Estate owns parts of Manhatten comes up on the internet or the newspapers every so often but with no evidence to back it up in fact I remember reading a statement a few years ago from Buckingham Palace stating that the Queen does not in any way own property outside the UK. Penrithguy (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Republican Tone

This article tries to minimise the role of Her Majesty, saying that she has nothing to say or do and all is done in her name. That is not true. The Queen HAS actual powers and she performs crucial tasks on government, parliament and civil life. Anyone who reads this article would think the monarchy is just a formality and not working state institution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.28.159.202 (talk) 19:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

There's a difference between the formal (de jure) and the actual powers (de facto) of the Crown. The contents of the article are not principally intended; nota bene, as arguments for or against either monarchists or republicans; but as an accurate description how the Crown, and the Monarch in person, functions within the framework of the unwritten UK constitutional framework. This not a controversial position among scholars of political science and constitutional law. RicJac (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)