Talk:Burger King

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[edit] Scratch pad

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[edit] Pre-FAC review

Looking at just the lead, the word company is used 13 or 14 times. It reads well, but there are enough little issues that would likely cause some trouble at FAC. I think I could do a light copyedit on this if you'd like. It would take me several days - just let me know. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:14, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

OK< here's the current first paragraph of the lead and my tweaked version - is this OK?

Burger King, often abbreviated as BK, is a global chain of hamburger fast food restaurants headquartered in unincorporated Miami-Dade County, Florida, United States. The company began as a Jacksonville, Florida-based restaurant chain in 1953 originally called Insta-Burger King. After the company ran into financial difficulties in 1955, its two Miami-based franchisees, David Edgerton and James McLamore, purchased the company and rechristened it Burger King. Over the next half century the company would trade hands four times, with its third set of owners, a partnership of TPG Capital, Bain Capital, and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, taking the company public in 2002. The current ownership group, 3G Capital of Brazil, acquired a majority stake in the company in a deal valued at $3.26 billion (USD) in late 2010.


Burger King, often abbreviated as BK, is a global chain of hamburger fast food restaurants headquartered in unincorporated Miami-Dade County, Florida, United States. The company began in 1953 as Insta-Burger King, a Jacksonville, Florida-based restaurant chain. After Insta-Burger King ran into financial difficulties in 1955, its two Miami-based franchisees, David Edgerton and James McLamore, purchased the company and rechristened it Burger King. Over the next half century the company would change hands four times, with its third set of owners, a partnership of TPG Capital, Bain Capital, and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners, taking it public in 2002. In late 2010 3G Capital of Brazil acquired a majority stake in BK in a deal valued at $3.26 billion (USD).

Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:24, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Lead concerns - I am not 100% sure about these two sentences:

  1. The manner in which the company licenses its franchisees varies depending on the region, with some regional franchises, known as master franchises, responsible for selling franchise sub-licenses on the company's behalf. I made "franchisee" plural as it made more sense that way. As it is though, the sentence still has franchise(s) 3x and franchisees once more
    I did a search and the phrase "master franchise" only appears once in the whole article, here in the lead. Per WP:LEAD the lead is supposed to be a summary of the whole article and not introduce anything new or be the only place something improtant is mentioned. I just re-read the Franchises section and think I would mention the financial struggles of the franchisees and how they affected large numbers of BK restaurants and the company itself over the years rather than this. What do you think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
    Tweaked the international operations section to include the phrase and explain the term better. I'll do some more work through the weekend. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  2. Should the purchase be more clearly identified in After the purchase of the company in 2002, Burger King began to aggressively target the 18–34 male demographic with larger products that often carried correspondingly large amounts of unhealthy fats and trans-fats. I think this refers to taking the company public then, so would something like "After the company went public in 2002, ..."?
    I went ahead and made this change a few minutes ago. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC) References - the article currently uses two kinds of citations, which I think would be an issue at FAC. There are both "Notes" and "References" but to be honest I cannot figure out why one is used and not the other. Usually if an article has Notes and References, the Notes are explanatory text and are frequently cited themselves (see for example Clemuel Ricketts Mansion, a FA which has both). I have also seen Notes used for references to specfic pages in a work, with the works cited in a References (or Bibliography) section. Here though, I am not sure what the rationale for something being a Note is versus something being a Reference. I also think that many of the Notes could be combined - if a reference is used multiple times, the "ref name" tag is one way to use the same numbered superscript for all cites to the same source. Here the first five notes appear to be identical as all are "2010 10-K SEC Filing, p. 73" and should probably all be condensed into five uses of the same source.

I also see that the same source, "2010 10-K SEC Filing", is used as a Reference (without a page number) elsewhere in the article (Ref 2). Again, I am not sure why the source is a Note most of the time, but is Ref 2, and why page numbers are given in all but one case for the use of this source (all nine Notes to 2010 10-K SEC Filing specify a page number, but the Ref 2 use of it does not). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to answer your references questions:
I used two different formats of references because several of the references, especially the books, have multiple reference points utilized to support different facts about the company. For example, I utilized the company's 2010 10K form to support information about franchises, financial data and global locations. The notes point to different pages in the source material such as page 7, 46 and the addenda of the document.
The Info box has several references in it that show up separately because of transclusion. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks, but I am still confused by this system and worry that it would be a real problem at FAC. If I understand what you are saying correctly, is the goal to use Notes for sources that have page numbers and References for sources that do not? If that is the case, then it is not done consistently. There are several sources used in the References section that include page numbers, and at least one source, the 2010 10-K SEC Filing, is cited as both a Note and as a Reference.
  • So here are the problems I see with the Notes and References as they currently exist:

Fixed

  1. If an article has both a Notes and a References section, the Notes are usually used for explanatory text (notes or extra material that would be distracting in the main text, but which will explain more to the interested reader). This is not iron-clad, but as the article currently exists, there is no clear distinction between the two and there should be one and it should followed rigorously (so if only sources with page numbers are in Notes, move all the References with page numbers to Notes). Another solution would be to have the Notes be for explanatory text (which can cite sources), the References cite sources (with a brief version of the title for things with page numbers), and to have a Bibliography or Works cited section after these with full information on sources with page numbers. (an examples of this style is Clemuel Ricketts Mansion), there are other ways to do this).
  2. The infobox citations have to follow the same style as the rest of the article (they do now, but whatever changes are made have to be done to the infobox refs too).
  3. Having multiple citations to the exact same source will be a problem at FAC, where the very strong preference is to see such citations combined (so instead of Notes 19, 21, 23, and 24 being to "Reiter, p. 64" and Reference 5 being to the same thing but in much more detail "^ Reiter, Ester (March 1996). Making Fast Food: From the Frying Pan Into the Fryer (2nd ed.). McGill-Queen's University Press. p. 64. ISBN 0773513876. http://books.google.com/?id=oBj-sPpJDQcC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=donald+smith+burger+king. Retrieved 6 April 2008. "franchise agreements were changed..."", there should one entry for this source with multiple cites to it.
  4. There are at least two citations where a single page is abbreviated "pp." (but it should be just "p.")
  • My intention was that this review would be a dialogue. I can copyedit text, but I do not want to do the grunt work of systematically fixing all the references, and there are things I do not understand or have questions on (like the master franchis sentence above). I expect a response on the lead questions too, which is part of why what I was waiting for before moving on. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:56, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
    • PS WOuld it help to ask someone who reviews sources at FAC to take a look at this article, specifically the Notes and References section? This would not be a full-scale evaluation of the references as is done at FAC (making sure they meet WP:RS, etc.) but just an outside view of the system used here? I f you would like, I can ask someone. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I am sorry about not being more responsive, I have been exceptionally busy with real word work and life. I will try to keep up. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)::I did not mean to come across so crabby - sorry too (and I understand, I have been quite busy in real life too). One good thing is that there are no deadlines on Wiki. Take care, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:13, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Part Two

I have re-read the article. It looks pretty good overall and I do not think it is too far from FA standards. The references are still a mjor concern for me, and I am going to skip the lead and start by commenting on each section in turn. History to start, but wanted to leave this note first. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I am going to make general comments on the content of each section before doing any sort of copyedits

[edit] History
  • YesY Done - I would include a historic image here if possible - there is the old logo in the main History of article that might work here
  • Seems odd to have an 11 year gap in the Pillsbury era (1967 to 1978). I assume the number of restaurants grew by quite a bit in this time period - could something like that be included?
  • YesY Done - I would include the year when Diageo formed
  • YesY Done - The first paragraph covers 14 years or so (1953 to 1967), the second paragraph covers perhaps 22 years (1978 to 2000) or 33 years if it is 1967 to 2000, and the last paragraph covers about 11 years (2000 to 2011), so the middle paragraph might need to be expanded / split
    • Fixed
[edit] Structure
  • YesY Done - This section seemed pretty muddled to me - 2 paragraphs are on current corporate structure, but 3 paragraphs are on the corporate headquarters building. Perhaps calling the section something like "Corporate structure and headquarters" would help?
  • YesY Done - More importantly the chronology in the section on the HQ is reversed - unless there is a good reason not to, it is usually easiest / best to go in chronological order. So I would start with the former HQ, then talk about the current one
  • YesY Done - This makes no sense 2007 is before 2008 Burger King announced in 2008 that it planned to move its headquarters to a proposed office building in Coral Gables.[41] The company reversed its decision in 2007...
    • Working - I expanded the section a bit explaining what Burger King does as a company and how it runs its operations. A bit more remains. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 22:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
      • Completed - I re-edited this section to be more descriptive and remove confusion --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 08:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
[edit] International operations
  • YesY Done The expansion into international markets could be mentioned in History (since it began in the 11 year gap)
    • I tweaked the layout of the article so that International expansion comes after Franchises. This alters the article flow so there is a logical move from domestic expansion to international expansion. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 20:34, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • YesY Done Statements like this need a year / date for context While Burger King lags behind McDonald's in international locations by over 12,000 stores [as of 2007], it has managed to become the largest chain in several countries including Mexico and Spain.[47]
  • YesY Done - It is not clear to me what the current relation between Hungry Jack's and BK is now (after the failed attempt by BK to move into Australia under the BK name)
  • YesY Done - I would clearly say that the TenderCrisp and TenderGrill sandwiches are chicken
  • YesY Done - Since Yum! does not operate any restaurants under that name, I would identify a least some of the brands it includes (Taco Bell, KFC, Pizza Hut)

Ruhrfisch ><>°° 05:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Give me a little time to look at the issues and I will start working on this after the first. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
No hurry - when you have addressed these issues I will look at the next several sections. I can also do a light copyedit if you want. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks - I will make more comments soon. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 22:19, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I have read the revised sections and they look better - got involved in some wikidrama, sorry for the delay. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:52, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
I am trying to expand the history section to better summarize the 80s and 90s. It is hard due to the need to keep it succinct. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 21:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Franchises
  • YesY Done - BKC is not defined before its first use here (clear it is Burger King Corporation, but the abbreviation should follow the first use of that name per the MOS)
  • YesY Done - I do not understand this Under this new franchise agreement, new owners were disallowed from living more than one hour from their restaurants – preventing corporations from owning franchises. why couldn't there just be small corporations which owned franchises in an hour or so radius around the main stockholder's house? Or did they forbid corporations from owning franchises? Yet individuals will often incorporate to limit liability (they can take the business but not the owner's house)
    • I tried to clarify the statement to differentiate who could own franchises. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 20:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • YesY Done - Did Pillsbury actively stall growth or did their changes lead to a stall in growth? By 1988, parent company Pillsbury had relaxed many of Smith's changes, scaled back on the construction of new locations and stalled growth.[10]
  • YesY Done - I do not think the article needs to say {USD) after each dollar amount - it is an American corporation, so I think readers will assume these are US dollar figures. Since I am reading it piece meal, I may have missed amounts in other currencies.
  • YesY Done - Already said it was 2001 and "the company" is not clear here (assume AmeriKing) By 2001, the company, which until this point had been struggling under a nearly $300 million (USD) debt load and been shedding stores across the US, was forced to enter Chapter 11 bankruptcy.[60] Since AMeriking is used in the preceding and following sentences, would "the franchise"" work here? That way it would not be confused with BK.
  • YesY Done - I would identify Bradley Blum as the BK CEO just to be clear - also this is the place to link him (first occurrence, not second)
  • YesY Done - Franchisees and owners are both used - might help to just use one, especially in the first sentence of the next paragraph after heavy use of franchisee? Individual owners [franchisees?] took advantage of the AmeriKing failure...
  • The language here is a bit rougher than the previous sections - my plan is to focus on content and structure first, then do a copyedit, so I am not too worried about that now. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Completed --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 19:05, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
International operations
  • Question - are there other countries in East Asia not listed here? Beginning in 1982, BK and its franchisees began operating stores in several East Asian countries, including Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea.[15] If these are the only ones, then it could be much tighter as something like In 1982, BK and its franchisees began operating stores Japan, Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea.[15] (could say "and other countries" at the end if needed)
  • Similarly BK's Central and South American operations began in Mexico in the late 1970s, and by the early 1980s in Caracas, Venezuela, Santiago, Chile and Buenos Aires, Argentina.[15] might omit the Central and South America part - is just listing the countries enough?
  • Or it could be tighter as Burger King's subsidiary Burger King Europe GmbH is responsible for the licensing and development of BK franchises in Europe, Africa and western Asia.[72] The BK AsiaPac, Pte. Ltd. business unit handles franchising for East Asia, the Asian subcontinent and all Oceanic territories except Australia.[46][73]
  • Year would help here - "now" is vague - when was the lawsuit? After losing a lawsuit filed against it by Hungry Jack's ownership, the company ceded the territory to its franchisee.[68] Hungry Jack's is now the only Burger King brand in Australia...
  • I do not understand this sentence Over a 10-year period starting in 2008, Burger King predicted 80 percent of its market share would be driven by foreign expansion, particularly in the Asia-Pacific and Indian subcontinent regional markets.[76]
  • This makes it sound like TPG still owns them While the TPG-lead group continued BK's international expansion by announcing plans to open new franchise locations in Eastern Europe, Africa and the Middle East, and Brazil, the company plan is focusing on the three largest markets – India, China and Japan.[77][78][79][80]

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

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