Talk:Carib people

Cannibalism

The article says:

The word "cannibal" is derived from Carib.

But according to the Encyclopedia of Latin American History and Culture:

the word "cannibal" has a Latin American origin. It came from Columbus' hearing the Carib Indians called Caniba. The Carib were feared cannibal warriors of the Antilles in his time. [1]

So I'm going to say that the Caribs were cannibalistic -- i.e., eaters of human flesh. --Ed Poor

What you mean is that Comumbus and the Spaniards believed that the Caribs were eaters of human flesh Slrubenstein

To be precise, what I mean is Historian James W. Dow called the Carib "feared cannibal warriors". The issue this leaves open is who feared the Carib and why. Did other tribes warn the Spaniards about the Carib, accusing the Carib of cannibalism? --Ed Poor

The Arawak (Taino) warned him although it appears that the tribes were at war with each other at the time. --rmhermen

Well, Ed, to be even more precise, you mean "Anthropologist James W. Dow noted that Columbus heard that Arawak called the Carib's "cannibals." There are several issues here that need to be unpacked. First is, how to characterize a group. The U.S. has nuclear weapons, and has used them, and has no problem identifying itself as a "nuclear power" -- but would not want others to characterize America as a "rogue state" or as a "nuclear terrorist." For one thing,k there are many other things, even very good things, that characterizes the USA. Similarly, Caribs may or may not have eaten human flesh. Let's say that they did. Surely there are many other things that characterize their culture. Why for so many years where they characterized by Europeans primarily as cannibals? Note, I am not asking whether they should or should not be called cannibals. My point is that when people are called cannibals, it is often for other reasons than the possibility (or fact) that they practice cannibalism. Another issue has to do with names in general. The Arawak called the Carib "cannibals." In fact, there are many cases, around the world, of one group calling another group with which it is at war "cannibals." I think "Eskimo" is Athabascan for cannibal. This does not mean that we should accept this as an appelation. This would be like an anthropologist in Germany in 1940 asking a Nazi (i.e. leader of the group) what those people over there are called, and being told "Christ-killers," and then forever opening articles on Jews with "Jews, also called Christ Killers, " Note, even if you inserted the words "By many" or "by some" after "called," I do not think you would be achieving NPOV. Slrubenstein

Hey, I didn't mean to pick a fight. I got nothing against cannibals, provided they don't murder me for food. Maybe Columbus's interest in cannibals was less about how to avoid being eaten than about how to pick up as many slaves as possible -- using the "cannibals may be enslaved" rule.

I think I see the point of the "Christ-killers" analogy. It's open season on those bastards, so let's go get 'em! (Rather like the "brainwashed Moonies" argument which fueled the deprogramming industry during 1975-1995.) --Ed Poor

precisely. Slrubenstein

The Moonies' aggressive, humiliating recruitment practices got a mention from a U.S. Congress probe in 1978. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them, except that the Washington Times's success has helped clean up their image.

HISTORICAL REFERENCES:

In Samuel Eliot Morison’s Pulitzer Prize willing history of Columbus, Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus (Little Brown, 1942), Morison recounts the findings of an exploration party of 200 men, put ashore on on the island of Guadeloupe in Nov. of 1493 (that being the admiral’s second voyage to the new world with an armada of 17 ships).

“The searching party found plentiful evidence of these unpleasant Carib habits which were responsible for a new word -- cannibal -- in the European languages. In the huts deserted by the warriors, who ungallantly fled, they found large cuts and joints of human flesh, shin bones set aside to make arrows of, caponized Arawak boy captives who were being fattened for the griddle, and girl captives who were mainly used to produce babies, which the Caribs regarded as a particularly toothsome morsel.” p.407

Earlier in Morison’s history; Columbus’s shore parties on the first voyage, repeated meet up with peaceful Taino natives on Cuba, Hispaniola, and islands in the Bahamas who emphatically warn against the Caribs and constantly refer to them as flesh eaters and aggressive warriors to be avoided at all costs. Carib raiding parties, in search of new tasty flesh, is stated as one of the primary reasons why native villages on Hispaniola were constructed inland, out of sight from passing Carib vessels.

There also seems to be some attempt afoot, powered by the degenerative disease of “political correctness”, to lessen or nullify the gravity of cannibalism by now prefacing it with the term “ritual”. Oh please, cannot we call a duck - a duck? If it walks like a duck... quacks like a duck... The fact is that many peoples in these latitudes across Mesoamerica (particularly the Aztecs and many Mayan associated Indian tribes) heavily engaged in the eating of human flesh. A careful read of:

Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España (The True History of the Conquest of New Spain) written by Bernal Diaz del Castillo (1492-1585) in 1568, remained unpublished for nearly fifty years, first published in 1632 after the manuscript was found in a Madrid library. English language translation by John Ingram Lockhart, London. written 1844 Entitled:

The Memoirs of the Conquistador Bernal Diaz Del Castillo written by himself, containing a true and full account of the Discovery and Conquest of Mexico and New Spain, Translated from the Original Spanish by John Ingram Lockhart. (In Two Volumes)

will reveal so many instances of human flesh consumption, that it becomes totally commonplace to the author and reader alike. There are also several mentions of cages in many cities, which were used to detain and fatten individuals before being dispensed with, chopped up, then boiled or roasted by the locals for savory consumption. A footnote in Volume 2 reads:

[29] The Spaniards at length, it would appear, took little notice of this barbarous custom of eating human flesh, so common among the Indians. Even here we see it is mentioned very coolly by Bernal Diaz. Human flesh certainly formed part of the provisions which Indian warriors carried with them when going out to battle. Both Gomara and Torquemada mention, that when Sandoval had defeated the warriors of Matlaltzinco, he found among their baggage a quantity of maise and numbers of roasted children. (p. 114.)

It is highly possible that the “culture of cannibalism” or zeal for human meat, slowly drifted into the Caribs from a once distant Meso-American, perhaps Mayan connection, across northern South America and ultimately, up the Lesser Antilles. Can you hear the ancient conversation between two Caribs from different islands, first tasting of the unknown meat:

“Hey, this is very tasty! What is it?”, says the visiting Indian. “Oh, you like it, aye? Well, its roasted baby of my enemy... we have it on holidays (when we can get it)”.

NPOV problems

I feel that this article is not written from a neutral point of view. Basic ethnographic sensitivity is amiss in the way it is so categorically and judgementally worded. Needs work. Mona-Lynn 23:17, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Remarks after rewriting

I removed the following tendentioius passages from this article:

1. Although some Native Americans practiced cannibalism (as did some Europeans), Columbus's characterization of the Carib as eaters of human flesh more likely reflected his desire to represent them as savages, for

2. They only started to fight when attacked by the Europeans.They used to inhabit various Caribbean islands, but were later pushed out by European colonists and were able to retain only two islands Dominica and Saint Vincent.

But the Caribs had driven out the Arawaks, which the article seems to condone. There is no need to comment on the rights and wrongs of such historical events, though of course others' comments upon them can be presented without violating NPOV. Citation of sources would help. In general, however, the earlier version of the article seems a piece of advocacy rather than an encyclopedia article. Mark K. Jensen 06:09, Feb 3, 2005 (UTC)

Have done another round of rewriting. Took out the part about women being servants because I feel that we should not pass such judgements on behaviours in societies, but rather, simply give the facts. Also adjusted teh cannibalism stuff a little more. I've a feeling more could be said about them culturally as well as geopolitically but this is all the time I have for today. Mona-Lynn 22:18, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 : I also agree, Cannabalism was a rumor started to set the grounds for colonization. As for the women being servants, not true at all. The society is actually matrilineal also. - Yami_Cassie

Added by anon

"Galibi" was he word for the group of people who lived on the leeward side of the islands, the better calmer side. When Columbus landed on the islands, like any good sailor, he always set anchor on the leeward side and thus got a consistant reply to his questions "who are you?".

Dominica or "Waitukubuli"was given to the Caribs as part of a tri-partite neutrality agreement between the French, English and Caribs in 1660. The Caribs agreed to stop attecking the colonial settlements on the other islands in return for an island all of their own, uncolonised. After the French revolution french aristocrats had to quickly move from Matinique and Guadeloupe and the Caribs allowed them to live temporarily on the beach front in Dominica. Soon after the new arrivals planted gardens etc and established themselves, contrary to the treaty. In 1720 the French sent a governer to the island, neglecting the treaty that the Caribs had honored. Today the Carib reserve is a small area on the windward side of the island and is still shrinking. There are about 3000 people there and a Carib chief. There is a primary school in the center of the Reserve, but older childen go to secondary schools outside the Resrve to the north or south. Women still make waterproof woven baskets in the same manner described by Columbuses reporters, the Catholic priests. The Catholic Church has had a presence since Columbus' arrival, but the first Carib to accept communion did so in the late 1890s. Then it was decided that the act of communiuon, and "transsubstantiation" of Jesus's blood and body were the equivalent of the older Carib custom of eating pieces of the organs of the bravest enemy to acquire strength. This was the basis for the claimed "anthropomorhism" which Queen Isabella had considered beyong the pale.

Allan Brown

This is unsourced, and at least in some cases, seems actually wrong. Some of the info is good and should go into the article, but not "as is", so I moved it here. Guettarda 22:32, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Cannibalism

A few questions. Above in talk, it is noted that the Arawaks of Hispaniola told Columbus that the Caribs were cannibals. The article itself implies that the accusations of cannibalism were made up by the Spanish to justify enslaving the Caribs. (This latter seems especially unlikely, given that, well, the Caribs weren't especially noted for being enslaved by the Spanish, unlike the never-accused-of-being-cannibals Arawaks).

At any rate, what I want to know is - is the case for the cannibalism of the Caribs really so weak as this article makes out? Cannibalism is a reasonably common practice of primitive human societies, although the Caribs seem as though they were more advanced than most known cannibalistic societies. On the other hand, the Aztecs were considerably more advanced than the Caribs, and certainly practiced ritual cannibalism. I do not know a great deal about the Caribs, but what I vaguely remember from my Caribbean History class a few years back does not include anything nearly so dismissive of the Caribs' alleged cannibalism as is present in this article. The Columbia Encyclopedia says simply that they did practice cannibalism. Britannica only says that they were alleged to, but does not make the rather sweeping claim that there is no evidence that they did practice cannibalism. I suggest that we remove the sentence that says there is no evidence of cannibalism, and probably also remove the sentence about the Queen's proclamation, since it's a weird one. Instead, I think we should simply have what we currently have about them being accused of cannibalism, and then say that the evidence for cannibalism is inconclusive. john k 07:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I have heard both people who argue strongly that they were not cannibals, and those who say the evidence is inconclusive. But with regards to slavery, it was a big issue. See History of Trinidad and Tobago. The demand for slaves was great, but the Spanish could not enslave "peaceful" Arawaks, so just a few years after Trinidad was described as have the only "friendly" population in the area, demand for slaves in the pearl fisheries of Margarita resulted in the Trinidians being declared "Caribs". Guettarda 10:42, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't this sentence: "Claims of cannibalism, however, must be seen in light of the fact that in 1503, Queen Isabella ruled that only cannibals could be legally taken as slaves, which gave Europeans an incentive to identify various Amerindian groups as cannibals" then really end in ".. as Caribs, who were considered cannibals"? Caribs were accused of cannibalism already in the 1490's and that ruling was meant to protect the "good" indians such as the Tainos. 213.243.181.233 00:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, gotcha on that. (But they did enslave "peaceful" Arawaks, didn't they?) At any rate, I'll will revise my suggestion for changes: remove teh sentence that says there is no evidence, and instead say that the evidence is inconclusive. Leave in the sentence about Isabella's proclamation, although perhaps clarify a bit. john k 21:07, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I know wiki's amateurish, but how about some attempt at research and citation in this article? I also suggest people spouting uninformed garbage about 'primitive' and 'advanced' peoples should refrain from making any edit on a topic dealing with indigenous, non-western societies. Go learn something first.

Etymology of Carib

Two etymologies for the word "Carib" have been given in the article, I'm moving them here as neither are referenced. This was added by an anon:

The word Carib is derived from the Arabic word Qaarib (قارب) literally meaning "boat" or "that which approaches (as a boat's approach)" and the Qaaribee (قاربي) is one who is associated with boats. One plural form of Qaaribee is Qaaribeeyeen (قاربيين) from where Caribbean is derived.

This was added by Blakwolf (I edited it some):

Carib or Caribe signifies "brave and daring", from Tupi caryba, or superior man.

They are contradictory, and I don't think they should be put back in w/o references.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The Arabic root is nonsense. The Tupi root would need to be sourced. Guettarda 22:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Intro Question

They spoke Kalhíphona, a Maipurean language (Arawakan), although the men spoke either a Carib language or a pidgin. If they're Caribs, shouldn't they all speak Carib? Rather vague and ambiguous. Teke 01:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Carib ¨habitat¨

Caribs did migrated from Venezuela to Caribbean islands, but it is wrong to say that they are from this islands,because the main of the carib race remained(to this day), in Venezuela and Colombia.--Andres rojas22 23:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Caribs today

According to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines#Demographics, some Caribs live there today. According to Dominica, the only population of Caribs lives there. According to this article (Carib) they live now only in Dominica and Tobago. It does not mention Saint Vincent.

My question: where exactly do Caribs live today? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.178.128.196 (talk) 19:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

The Facts: If you like to find out the truth about the caribs of St. Vincent visit http://www.svgtourism.com/channels/1.asp?id=60 it was writen by people that was born there. And yes there still a lot of caribs there.They are fownd in dominica.

Patriarchate yes or not?

IMHO this sentence is pointless: However, women were highly revered and held substantial socio-political power.
Women were "highly reverted" in which way?
by whom?
references?
which "substantial socio-political power" they had?
references?
--Dia^ (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Columbus did not understand the Carib language

So I added a ^{[citation needed]} to the statement "While Columbus was there, three young Carib slaves that had been castrated, fled to him and sought shelter, claiming they were soon to be eaten."

Belief about giant snake

I removed this from the article page:

"== Beliefs =

The caribs believed in the king snake (this is a huge snake, it is 250 metres high, it has a crown of a chicken, it crows like a chicken in the morning.) the caribs believed that the king snake emerged out of the sea and came onto the land. if the snake was to be removed, the earth would be destroyed. The king snake left a concrete path when it came out of the sea.every full moon the king snake were given virgin females as sacrefices to prevent famine and to not destroy the earth. Up till this day, some caribs still believe that the snake resides in the earth."

I think it's interesting, but dubious enough to need a citation and (obviously) some style cleanup before being added back in. Anyone feel free to do it! --auk (talk) 04:35, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Narrow focus

This article focuses almost entirely on the Caribs in centuries past. There is no discussion of the modern people and modern culture. Though the modern tribe is small that still seems to me a glaring omission.

http://www.avirtualdominica.com/caribs.cfm

http://www.caribindians.net

Garifuna

192.88.165.35 (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)