Talk:Catalonia

Catalonia coat of arms

Here are some heraldic and/or vexillological sources: Source 1, Source 2. Cadenas, A.A. and Cadenas, V. : Heraldica de las comunidades autonomas y de las capitales de provincia. Hidalguia, Madrid, 1985.159 p. ISBN 84-00-0604-7.

Another one: Societat Catalana de Genealogia... Escut de Catalunya/Coat of Arms of Catalonia --MauritiusXXVII (Aut Disce, Aut Doce, Aut Discede!). 10:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

"the linguistic balance"

The following sentence has an embedded POV. This is not only a NPOV policy problem. If you don't share the POV (or aren't sure what it is), you can't understand the meaning of the sentence:

Between 1990 and 2010, more than a quarter million immigrants from Latin America, North Africa, Asia and eastern Europe have settled in Catalonia further upsetting the language balance.

This could mean that there is a linguistic balance between Castillian Spanish and Catalan which would be upset by more people speaking Castillian. It could also mean there is a linguistic balance towards mutually intelligible languages being spoken, which is upset by all these non-Spanish speakers coming in. In either case, it would help to: (1) chuck the phrase linguistic balance and specify which speaking groups are expanding and which are contracting; (2) treat Spanish-speaking immigrants from Latin America differently; (3) explain which local languages immigrants learn (or to what extent they learn neither). Cheers! --Carwil (talk) 02:13, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Geography/Geology

The article is lacking a geographic and geologic section describing the geomorphology of Catalonia.Xufanc (talk) 10:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

ABOUT SURVEYS AND REFERENDUM

2 important facts about the surveys and referendum are missing. First, it mentions the survey where the separatist option won, but doesn't state that this was an exception, in a special context, and that the ones before showed the separatist option supported by not more than 20 % voters. Also, and even more important, the separatist referenda were won with percentages over 90 %, but participation was ridiculous, 20 % or less, and experts point out that separatist are presumed to have voted massively, while non-separatists would have paid little atention, so those referenda were considered a separatist defeat rather than a victory--88.3.243.255 (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but please note that not all experts agree with this. Political Spanish experts have this theory while some others think differently. Others think that it was still the separatist victory as "non-active" separatists did not come to vote (thus, people who would rather become independent, but don't feel so strong about it). So, we should just state all the facts and let the reader judge, not give them a Centralist POV like you are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.74.132 (talk) 16:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Economy

So, I've read the economy part of the article and see how it is compared to Basque Country and Madrid. Isn't this misgiving the reader somewhat? I believe that Madrid and Basque Country's economical state should be stated, don't you think? The Basque Country pays no taxes to the Spanish state and Madrid is the capital. Yes, Madrid is more debatable, but consider how all trains must go through Madrid, and many enterprises have put their headquarters in Madrid. In addition, as the capital, it gains a considerable amount of the taxes others pay while Catalonia doesn't gain money but rather loses it with taxes. We should at least mention these details, even in the brief description, so people don't get the wrong idea.

Catalonian independentism

Which is the need to put that photo to the "independentism support" in the Administrative_and_territorial_division? It has already been explained in "politics" that there nationalist and independentist in Catalonia, the photo isn't important, in fact, it gives a completely wrong figure of the independentism in Catalonia, these information was taken from a non-binding and not-official referendum, only the 20% gave their vote. Real surveys have been made and in every one the people choose to stay in Spain over independence (see Catalan_independentism).

That gives a completely wrong image of Catalonia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Living001 (talk • contribs) 10:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Catalan independentism is the social movement involving more people in Catalonia. Votes in the referendum at Barcelona were more than the ones received by political parties that are leading the council (PSC and CIU) . 20% of votes of the total census voting in favour of a referendum that is forbidden by spanish courts and that has no legal effects is highly relevant.–--95.61.18.160 (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The social movement involving more people in Catalonia? Do you really believe what are you saying? Take a look to the surveys from the page Catalan independentism in Catalan (maybe you will like more that page) Independentisme_català :

• First photo: independentismo català, to be a comunidad autonoma is the most preferred choice, then a federal state and far lower to be an independent state.

Also take a look to Independentismo Catalán, surveys:

• First survey: in favour of independence: 31.7 % in favour, 51.3% against
• Second survey: Independence 24.5% , federal state 31.9%, comunidad autonoma 33.2%

Even in the feeling about the country: The people feel by far so catalan as spanish,with 42.7%

So once again, that photo is highly irrelevant. --Living001 (talk) 07:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

That sources are surveys, answering a survey is NOT a social movement. Which other social movement in Catalonia involved more people than independentism during the last years? No one from a neutral POV can say independentism is "irrelevant" in Catalonia. Just searching about the topic you can notice it is highly commented. 95.61.18.160 (talk) 23:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

the territorial divions and a very big lie

hello,

i suggest make in the territorial divisions a clarification: put in the caption: lines: division from central governmrnt of spain colour: division for the government of catalonia ,because anyone does't know than there are two divisions, it could be messy

other thing: the last discussion article says than independentism is irrelevant basing in a polls. these polls are complete false. I live in catalonia, and I'm catalan and these polls never exist. there are a real polls asking: would you lke catalonia as an independent country in the un and ue? these polls were made on a lot of cities, and there was a very great victory of yes. I think than independentism and a senyera photo are necessay in this page for know the real desire of catalan people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.131.134.15 (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

On a 20% turnout, where opponents of independence boycotted the poll. There are two pro-independence parties, they get about 18% of the vote between them. The opinion polls are reputable, and sourced. 109.100.77.96 (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC) (boynamedsue)

I think it is necessary for effect of brevity but also preciseness to have a person who speaks both Catalan and Spanish contribute to this article (This is a link with plenty of information that this article has omitted but I believe is relevant and which is substantiated http://www.slideshare.net/catamunt/catalonia-and-the-catalan-countries-8052623). The psychological process of an individual living within the territory of Catalonia has to be included. Otherwise, the article becomes redundant and in the event of Catalonia becoming an independent free state more difficult to modify. The majority of people in Catalonia do not think of themselves as Spanish but rather as Catalans, specifically during this economic turmoil that Europe is going through and there are plenty of studies that reveal this to be the case. There are also many articles of propaganda from both the Spanish and the Catalan side and these needs to be whittled out for more objective sources. However the article should demonstrate the emotions of the Spanish people towards Catalans in that they have distain for Catalan existence and use racial jokes on a daily basis in reference to Catalans. They insist the language of Catalan not to be spoken in any other parts of Spain, and the Spanish parliament refuse to allow the Catalan language to be spoken within its walls. In a recent newspaper poll by the Spanish population excluding Catalonia, 78% of people supported military action against Catalonia if it proposed independence. This may be because the current government inside Catalonia is a pro-independent party which has a majority of 86% support and because of the current economic climate where Spain is on the verge of requiring an EU/IMF bailout. This has caused fear in the Spanish people as Catalonia is the wealthiest regions that provide support for Spain’s economy. The Spanish government are currently attempting to pass legislation that will reverse much of the powers Catalans have currently whereby the Spanish government insist Spanish should be the only language taught in Catalan schools. These repressions are what need to be discussed in the article.

When one thinks of Spain, one could construe it as being akin to an empire just as the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia was. Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan were all part of the Soviet Union (as was Russia) until they separated in 1991, while Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovenia, and Kosovo were part of Yugoslavia until the break up in the 90’s. When one looks further at the remarks of the politicians in Spain on Catalonia and her citizens, they will clearly see identical policies as those held previously by the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. One may construe they are different in that Spain function by democracy but is it really a democracy when the voice of a people is overwhelmed by the voices of others external regions that are only interested in a communities wealth and thereby prevent that community seeking to promote the independence of their language, culture, and traditions. This is what occurred in the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia and one may have argued during the existence of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia that the people of the breakaway republics were in fact Soviets and Yugoslavs but these people would not have accepted that and if one was to say to these people that they are still Soviets and Yugoslavs, these people would not like it as they fought for their independence for years, just as the Catalans have being doing against Spain. It would be disrespectful to minimize people so crudely that it would be similar to calling Irish people British.

One needs to ask important questions such as, why do Spanish people fear people ruling their own destiny as it states in democracy? Why do Spanish people insist on oppressing a people and their language and culture? How can Spanish People dispute the evidence that is available? Catalans have a different Language, different culture, and different traditions which are usually considered to mean different country. It is so obvious that Catalans are different people, as well as the Galician’s are, and of course the Basques (who’s language is believed to be one of the most ancient in the World and where linguists have been unable to place it within a linguistic family). This may be due to Spanish people’s fears in the current economic climate whereby they realize if Catalonia was to proclaim their independence, then the Spanish way of life would disappear and they will have to become responsible overnight whereby they must find other resources that will make them economically viable which they don’t currently have. However, if one was to ask a person from Catalonia what is their nationality, their cognitive state would proclaim more often than not, they speak different, ergo they think different. They are Catalan and not Spanish.

Nevertheless, I am not from Catalonia but rather Ireland and therefore I am a conscientious observer who has the luxury to see situations from the outside. My wife is from Barcelona and therefore whom thinks of herself as Catalan and my best friends are from the southern Spanish cities and whom think of themselves as Spanish. I have heard and seen the arguments from both sides of the divide (i.e the Catalan people and the Spanish people whom do not live in Catalonia) and I have read up on the issue and this formulated my decision. As long as I have a mind and a freedom to make decisions, I will continue to do so regardless what others may think or do, however many Catalans don’t have that luxury and they depend on articles like this to be as accurate as possible so that people around the World can see what their life is like and the plights they may endure. It is all well and good to quote this is a encyclopedia but then one must remember part of an encyclopedia is to tell the reality of a people within their confines. A link that may well return this article to an equilibrium can be found here http://www.slideshare.net/catamunt/catalonia-and-the-catalan-countries-8052623. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.17.164.155 (talk) 09:22, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

We do have quite a few native Catalan and Spanish speaking editors on these pages,some of whom share your political views, and they often contribute. But the content of the page is quite ferociously monitored to avoid people of nationalist or non-nationalist beliefs from skewing it towards their viewpoints. There is nothing wrong with holding the views you do about Catalonia, but wikipedia needs to present only the facts about a topic, not speculation and opinion.

Having said that, if you think anything is missing, or there is bias in the article, please alter it, as long as you have a good source for the new information. Boynamedsue (talk) 12:25, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

nationality

Given the difference in meaning between "nationality" and "nacionalitat" / "nacionalidad", I've removed nationality from the opening para, the situation is explained in a later paragraph, and in the English Speaking world, the Spanish term is meaningless/misleading without context.

Boynamedsue (talk) 18:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Given another user insists on putting nationality in the opening paragraph, I have put the term in quotes, as appears later in the text, to show it is not an error but a translation. ("Scotland is a nationality", "Canada is a nationality" would get changed pretty quick...) Boynamedsue (talk) 06:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW, please discuss changes on this word when editing, there is a very long history of debate on this, which led to the whole constitutional mularkey being put in its own section because the open para was about 2000 words. Unless all other regions of Spain have their constitutional status in first para it seems a bit POV here to include it.

Boynamedsue (talk) 06:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I do not oppose the use of quotations.

I fail to see why including a statutory definition is a bit POV ("a bit of a point of view").

I do remember that a special section, "Legal status within Spain" was created specifically to address this issue. Can you please refer me to the discussion and agreement on its deletion? (I have looked into the archives but could not find it)

-- dúnadan : let's talk 16:12, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

All this happened while I wasn't looking either, so I don't know why the legal status section vanished. I've nothing against including the legal term "nationality", and it's still there later on in "Statutes of autonomy". I just don't think the opening paragraph is the best place for it, as it reads a bit like someone wants everyone to know that Catalonia is not just another region. A new "legal status within Spain" section closer to the top, containing the "statutes of autonomy" text, and some possible expansion (though perhaps not too much, because God knows, we both know far more than the average person will ever need to about these things), would meet with no objection from me.

Boynamedsue (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you see the lede is not the best place to include the legal status of any given territory, check the Basque Country (autonomous community), Galicia, etc. 88.19.44.247 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC).

territory or region

I've changed back recent edits referring to Cat and P.V. as Spanish territories, instead of regions. The term territory is usually used to describe regions outside of the main government of the nation, like the British Overseas Territories, or areas not enjoying full political rights within the nation (as in the US), I suspect that this is a bit of POV pushing.

If anyone wants to change this, please revert individually rather than simply undoing my changes, as I have also had to put back UK spellings. Wiki policy is that British spellings are acceptable, and the first ones used in the article should remain (or at least it was).

Boynamedsue (talk) 15:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Just one question: why do you use the term of "territory" and not the correct one as "nation": What's Catalonia for the writer of this article: an Spanish territory or region or a "nation" in Spain? User: Casablanca — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.21.210.131 (talk) 17:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

In English parlance Catalonia is a region, in Spanish law it is a Nationality, which has a meaning in English which is not applicable to a territory. In the non-legally binding preamble to its statute of autonomy, it is a nation. In the opening paragraph we used the term "autonomous community" because it describes the current situation without POV.

Boynamedsue (talk) 06:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Spanish Constitution

This paragraph is wrong: In the Spanish Constitution of 1978 Catalonia, along with the Basque Country and Galicia, was defined as a "nationality". The same constitution gave Catalonia the automatic right to autonomy, which resulted in the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia of 1979.

The word "Catalonia" does not appear even once in the Spanish constitution (only the Basque Country and Navarre are explicitly mentioned due to the historic charters - "fueros"). The only mentions to "nationalities" can be found in Article 2: "it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all". That's it. Period. Original text in English can be found in the official website of the Spanish Government: http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/C511DC05-40C5-4739-8AB6-FA3CEE3B4F28/0/Constitucion_EN.pdf

--85.57.223.75 (talk) 15:27, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Catalonia's statutes of autonomy, approved by referendum and the Spanish government, use the meaningless term "nationality".

Boynamedsue (talk) 06:55, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

As always, you are wrong. The preamble (even in the version cut by the spanish Constitutional Court) says perfectly clear that Catalonia is defined as a nation.--Galazan (talk) 10:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The preamble is not a legislative document, it has no prescriptive value in law and so does not affect the legal status of Catalonia. That's the only way it got through the Spanish parliament, as you know

BNS

208.51.23.195 (talk) 08:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The concept of word "nation" is not linked to law but dictionaries, as you know, so the prescriptive value is an insignificant matter. The important fact is the will of Catalan people to considerate themselves as a nation (acording to the meaning of the word), and the Catalan Parliament aproved it in 2005. After that if our neighbors change laws to avoid the legal value, the real fact will not be changed. And furthermore it's important to know that at least in the preamble is recorded this fact.--Galazan (talk) 14:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Many Catalan and non-Catalan spaniards do not consider Catalonia to be a nation, so to state Catalonia is a nation is a POV. Nothing wrong with it, but it shouldn't be in a wikipedia article.

Boynamedsue (talk) 04:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

A statement shared by 90% of the Catalan Parliament for you is only a POV, although it is recorded in legal documents. But "many Catalans" (who??) don't, as you said without references. Interesting way of being objective.--Galazan (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes Galazan. Something that has only 90% support is by definition a POV, unless it is legislated to the contrary, which is not the case with the N word, as its position in the preamble of the estatut is not considered to have legal value. As for Catalans who don't believe Catalunya is a nation, go to Hospitalet and throw a brick, you'll probably hit two of them. Boynamedsue (talk) 05:34, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Rv Boynamedsue editions. Could you be more careful? The Spanish constitution says "NATIONALITIES and REGIONS of Spain".

Article 2 [National Unity, Regional Autonomy]

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards, and recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions which make it up and the solidarity among all of them."

The term "nationality" might be meaningless for you, and difficult to explain to English speakers, but it is not in Spain. "Nationality" is used in Spanish politics to avoid the more controversial term "nation" (which appears in the preamble of the new Catalan Statute of Autonomy). Since conservatives in Spain never agreed with Spain being a plurinational state, the more neutral term "nationality" was chosen in the Spanish Constitution. Thus, nationality is a consensual and legal term, rather than a "meaningless term", and as such, it should appear in the Spanish autonomous that are recognized as nationalities.

About your previous comments, a territory is not an outter area of a country, from where do you get this (mis)information?! A territory is a "land" (either dependent or independent), Catalonia, is a region, territory, land, community, area, and legally named an "autonomous community", with the status of "Nationality", dependent of Spain. The Spanish Constitution doesn't mention Catalonia is a region, or Spain is only made up of regions. The Constitution says Spain is made up of "Nationalities and Regions", and Catalonia is one of those nationalities, whether you like it or not, whether it sounds odd in English or not. What term shall we use instead? the so controversial term in Spain "nation"? We should just mention what the law says, and it says "nationalities". 83.46.23.210 (talk) 13:26, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. Look in a English dictionary and see what nationality means. In wikipedia it is:

"Membership of a nation or sovereign state, usually determined by their citizenship, but sometimes by ethnicity or place of residence, or based on their sense of national identity."

By ths definition, Catalonia, England, Spain, the UK and Australia can't be nationalities. Catalonia is a "nacionalidad" or a "nacionalitat". Something completely different from a "nationality".

As for territory "Yorkshire is a territory", "England is a territory", "Munster is a territory", "Alaska is a territory"... Sorry no, "territory" in those contexts is inaccurate, imprecise and misleading. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:49, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your intentions here. Do you pretend to avoid the constitutional and legal term "nacionalidad", because it doesn't mean the same in English? Have you seen any translation of the Spanish Constitution into English? Why do they translate the Spanish new (political) meaning of "nacionalidad" into nationality? Because there is no other way to "translate" a consensual term which is meant to avoid other controversial terms in Spain.

Naming Catalonia as a territory may be innacurate (not incorrect!), but also as a "region" (no where says Catalonia is a region, so this term is also imprecise) since Catalonia is ONLY (officially) an "Autonomous Community" with the status of nacionalidad/nacionalitat. Yorkshire is a county, England a country, Munster a province, Alaska a state and Catalonia just an autonomous community. 88.19.44.247 (talk) 12:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I heartily concur with Boynamedsue's observations. The fact is that this article is (supposed to be) in English, but it (and others on topics related to Spain, its ACs, its languages, etc.) is being invaded by a creeping tide of Spanglish that perverts the meaning of key terms. What the Spanish or Catalan (or Basque, or whatever) courts and legislature decide things should be called is applicable only to the Spanish, Catalan or Basque languages, etc., and can't be regarded as constraining the vocabulary used in English. By way of example I'm putting the term nacionalidad in Spanish in the lead.AdeMiami (talk) 13:01, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The fact that Spain has created a conceptual and linguistic innovation "nacionalidad=region with a different historical background which does not quite amount to nationhood" does not mean that this meaning is transfered into English simpñy because the word "nationality" is cognate with "nacionalidad". Any reasonably educated English person seeing the sentence "Catalonia is a nationality" will say "no it's not, it can't be" and assume it is an error on the part of the writer.

For that reason, if the word "nationality" appears in the lead, it must be in inverted commas to indicate to the reader "yes, we know this isn't correct English, but it's not a mistake. If you want to know more follow this link."

I like the idea of using the Spanish word directly, but the problem with that is that some users of a catalanist persuasion will consider this to be unacceptable for various reasons, and it's probably more stress than it's worth to do so. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Territory, I do think that the word territory carries a slight implication of exclusion from the main body of the state, but I've nothing against it being used occasionally. However, before my initial complaint, another user had changed almost every "region" and "AC" in the text to territory, which to my ear gave it a POV feel. A couple of territories in the text are fine by me, but not to the exclusion of all other terms, especially the more accurate "Autonomous Community".

Boynamedsue (talk) 14:48, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree using italics and commas, shall we apply the same convention on other articles, such as the Basque Country, Galicia, etc? 88.19.44.247 (talk) 15:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget Andalucia and the Canary Islands, yes I think that's a very good idea.

Boynamedsue (talk) 15:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

BNS you confuses the meaning of word "nation" with the word "state". Please read the definitions and their examples in the oficial Cambridge Dictionary. You make a mistake if you link an encyclopedia about knowledge with laws about political pacts between political parties. I'm not saying to write "Catalonia is a european state", of course not!, I'm just defending it's a "nation", and this fact is accepted by the general majority of Catalan people.--Galazan (talk) 15:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Gal, personally I don't see the word nation as particularly important, after all it's just a word that has no empirical reality. But it's clear that according to wikipedia's standards of verifiability, Catalonia isn't a nation. Probably the majority of Catalans consider Catalonia to be a nación/naciò. Probably a minority don't, along with a majority of Spaniards (including Catalans). But until it is legally defined as such, or the majority of sources internationally state that it is, it can't be called this in wikipedia, though of course these POVs can be reported.

Boynamedsue (talk) 16:41, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Again with this subject? Please review the archives. The term "nationality" in English (along with "historical nationality") is used in Britannica and OECD publications, just to name a few. Whether they are forcing a translation into English or not, that is not our position to say (that would be POV). There are reputable sources using it. We can use them. I believe there was an agreement (to which I subscribe) to use them either in quotations or in italics.-- dúnadan : let's talk 22:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

You are maybe right, the Britannica article (Catalonia, Region (Spain)), uses the phrase "historic region" in the lead, something I'd have no problem seeing here. However, the rest is behind a pay wall, so I can-t see the quote you are refering to. When it uses "nationality" does it say "Catalonia is a nationality" or "Catalonia is refered to as/has the legal status in Spain of/ a nationality"?

The OECD report on Catalonia uses the term "Autonomous Region" in its opening lines. Again, no problem. Catalonia is clearly an (excessively) autonomous region. No English language source I have ever seen uses "nationality" in its primary description of catalonia, though I'm sure you will find isolated examples of "Catalonia is a nationality" (usually written by non-native speakers) or more commonly "the Spanish constitution defines Catalonia as a nationality". To put it in the lead seems to me to be giving undue weight, but I'm happy to compromise with users desperate to get as close as possible to the opening sentence "Catalonia is, was, and always will be a nation."

Boynamedsue (talk) 19:23, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Boynamedsue. Some comments, some of which we both have discussed, but anyways:

• Catalonia is an autonomous region. No doubt about it. It is also, under Spanish jurisprudence, a "nationality" (I'm happy to use quotations, as agreed on long time ago). You are right, the constitution does not explicitly define any autonomous community as a nationality, but simply states that the Spanish indivisible nation is integrated by "regions and nationalities". The Statutes of Autonomy of some communities are the ones that choose to define themselves either as a region, historical region, nationality, or historical nationality. Some Statutes of Autonomy, when defining the community as a nationality -like Valencia-explicitly state that (I paraphrase) in recognition of the right to autonomy granted by Spanish constitution to "regions and nationalities" (i.e. the same 2nd article of the constitution), said community, a nationality, chooses to become an autonomous community. Yet, to be as close as we can to the letter of the constitution, I agree, we should not say "the constitution defines Catalonia as a nationality" because it doesn't. It is the Statute of Autonomy that does. I edited the sentence accordingly, and added a reference.
• Here is the link, and text to Britannica:"The constitution classifies the possible autonomous communities into two groups, each of which has a different route to recognition and a different level of power and responsibility. The three regions that had voted for a statute of autonomy in the past—Catalonia, the Basque provinces, and Galicia—were designated “historic nationalities” and permitted to attain autonomy through a rapid and simplified process. " I[1]. You should be able to open the link, but if not, maybe your public library (I don't know where you live) might have access to the full content of Britannica online. There are other sources, which I've cited before, by the OECD that do use the word nationality in reference to Catalonia. Here is one, by Michael Keating [2].
• The definition of "nationality" appears in the opening paragraph of the the articles of Galicia, the Valencian Community, the Basque Country (to my knowledge), but it has not caused any arguments there.
• Finally, I oppose the use of the term "nation" to define Catalonia in the opening paragraph.

-- dúnadan : let's talk 17:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Catalonia. A part of a nation without state.

I edited a article of Wikipedia about Catalonia.

Catalonia (the actually Autonomous Community of Catalonia) is a part of a nation without state. This nation isn't Spain. This nation is known as "the Catalan Countries" and Catalonia form part of that. The Catalan Nation hasn't got a state. The Catalan Countries are distributed in Spain and France. I observed that in the article about Catalonia there wasn't this information so I added that.

So, I can't understand why Wikipedia deleted my revision of the article. I want an explanation and, if is necessary, start a discussion about the topic.

Thanks.

--Comasblog (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, the reason is that wikipedia only reflects facts rather than opinions. Obviously, many Catalans feel the way you do, and many don't. What wikipedia does is report the current legal status quo, otherwise it'd just be a war of people who think as you do saying one thing, then people who disagree saying another.

Regards

Boynamedsue (talk) 12:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)