Talk:Celtic cross

Re old stuff, now gone

I would like some precisions about 2 affirmations :
<< Though other explanations of the Christian combination of circle and cross have been made, it should be noted that the "Celtic" cross is rare outside the former extent of Odin's cult. >>

• It should be precised the extent of Odin's cult ! In Ireland ? Certainly not in Britanny (despite Vikings' raids), where there are numerous Celtic crosses. And numerous "sun crosses" can be found in south of France and Hiberia.

<< A form of this symbol [sun cross] – with the arms of the cross extended beyond the perimeter of the circle – was adopted by Christians who often extended the lower arm in the manner of a Christian cross. >>

• Is it any proof of this "adoption" ? Or is it stated because a close representation ? Such a simple symbol may have different origins, no connected. When the Christian cross was held in Ireland, it was the Latin cross (lower arm extended). In an other way, we can say there are crosses in circles before the Christian era, but can we state a link ? In my opinion, the Christian cross come from the cross where Jesus died, and then adapted to various representations, which was easy with such an elementary symbol. Gwalarn 20:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Navigational Use

I moved the following text to this page. It looks like OR unsupported by any other researcher, and there are a number of missing facts: which instrument?, how was is it used?, was it actually used?

According to a theory by Crichton Miller, a Scottish researcher, the celtic cross, or rather the instrument that bears remarkable resemblance to celtic cross could have been used by Egyptian and European civilizations for nautical navigation. Depending on the size of the cross, it could allow to determine the geographical position on Earth to within 3 miles.

BillC 09:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The celtic cross is present in Romania in popular art from a very long time.Radys 11:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

cross/rood

Is this bit about the word 'cross' coming from vikings definite, only i thought i remembered reading somewhere that it had come from irish..? I remember the book in question saying that the two words were both used for a while and i think it was cited as one of the few irish/celtic? words to be adopted into english... I may be wrong it was a long time ago and I cant even remember the book title!

I was always under the impression that the word cross came from Norse 'Kors', meaning cross. 91.105.157.243 (talk) 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Pre-Christian

I added a reference to the pre-Christian origins (or symbolism of the celtic cross) as an example the Callanish Stones on the isle of Lewis. It was constructed 3000BC and is celtic cross shaped. If anyone knows of another example please feel free to add. .Celtic Harper 10:10, 25th July 2006 (UTC)

Should it perhaps also be noted that the general design of the temple at newgrange is essentially a celtic cross (which dates to 3200BC)?

I don't think you can call the design of a temple as a celtic cross, it has to do more with the knot work and the portrayal of a symbol on objects.... I don't know, Find a source that calls it one.SADADS (talk) 02:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Celtic cross and high cross

What are the differences between the Celtic cross and the High cross? Should both article be merged? If not, why? Thank you
David Latapie (✒ | @) 10:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The Celtic cross may originate in the High cross, but it may not, and is clearly not always high now. The High cross may not be entirely Celtic, having been crafted on occasion (in the Isle of Man and elsewhere) by Christianised Vikings and others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.100.250.217 (talk) 22:34, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Celtic Lion

Hey just wondering about the celtic lion compared with the english lions... if any....

thanks!

Not as obvious, clearly, for starters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.100.250.217 (talk) 21:30, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Origins

I recently heard a contemporary historian of the Iona Community alleging that the Celtic cross originates there, and that the addition of the circle had a technical role in strengthening crosses of unprecedented stature (see High cross). The theory is plausible, but perhaps we also shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the Celtic cross also resembles a crosshair, a skeletal horoscope, as well as an archaic theta, perhaps therefore evocative of theos - as well as the eternal circle symbolism (and the design of a helmet with reinforcing crosspieces which proved decisive in ancient battle). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.100.250.217 (talk) 21:18, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Cross nowy

In heraldry the celtic cross is known as the cross nowy (from the old French for 'knotted').

"noué", knotted Gwalarn (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Political symbol

Too much is uncited. In my opinion, it is nonsense as well. If cites can be found, it can stand, otherwise it goes. Google "Celtic cross nationalist" and this article turns up first. patsw (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

the article that had been linked explicitly said that the celtic cros WAS NOT banned in Germany despite it's extremist use, because it was too commonplace.

You are correct (see p. 179 in the linked pdf of the reference). Thus I changed it.RoastDack (talk) 02:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Ankh???????

While the conjecture that the Celtic Cross may have its origins in the Ankh of the Coptic chursh is interesting, it is wrong to overlook the more obvious connection to the Sun Cross, a symbol long associated with the Celts. The obvious fusion of traditions of the Christian Cross and the fact that the ancient Irish were sun worshipers with common religious themes of death and resurection are a much more plausible explanation then the leap of intellect to associate the Celtic Cross with the Ankh. Usually the simplest explanation is right, and I wouldn't ascribe too much to a similarity or accident of geometry.

Original version v Christian version

People seem to be confusing the original Celtic cross with the Celtic Christian cross. As the article points out, the Celtic cross is pre-Christian in origin. This is the original version (notice the arms of equal length) and this is the Christian version (notice the bottom arm is longer than the rest). The Christian version was often (but not always) used for high crosses. ~Asarlaí 15:12, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

How common was the pre-Christian circle cross?Rakovsky (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

What source do we have that distinguishes? SADADS (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's an indisputable fact that this symbol is pre-Christian, and this symbol did not appear until Europe was Christianized. The latter is always used in a Christian context. Hence, the former is the 'original' version and the latter is the 'Christian' version. ~Asarlaí 18:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Could the Celtic Cross be related to the early Christian "Crown of Thorns Cross", halfway down in http://www.pravmir.ru/article_1347.html Image location: http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/hist-cr/design/029.gif The one on this "Orthodox World Website" shows the wreath on a Russian 3 bar cross. Of course, Orthodox use regular crosses without the "three bars" too. So maybe you could have a crown of thorns cross without a 3 bar?Rakovsky (talk) 01:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

See note 4 etc. That both derive from Early Christian "victor's wreaths" on crosses is accepted by many scholars. Johnbod (talk) 02:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

fascist symbol

This usage should be mentioned in the article, I think. I just heard it on NPR. Wikipedia also says so here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.38.175 (talk) 14:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I was surprised also that this wasn't listed as a use in the article. I added a ref from the ADL hate symbols handbook and a small line in other usage Ianboggs (talk) 02:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

The mention should specify where this occurs, & bear WP:UNDUE in mind. For every fascist website using it, there are 100,000 graves & war memorials where it has no such connotation. Johnbod (talk) 04:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Banned in Germany

Quote: "In Germany, the Celtic cross was adopted by a prohibited neo-Nazi party (VSBD/PdA) but its public display was not banned by the German government" This is in strict contrast with the German wikipedia article which explicitly states that the celtic cross is banned in Germany, thereby referring to decision 0209/08 of the Supreme Court of Germany, see [1]. Guidod (talk) 08:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You going to find a source and fix it? Sadads (talk) 11:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The reference is given. Guidod (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Good catch! I was unaware of the Supreme Court ruling. However, I downloaded it, and translated it using Babelfish (my German is not very fluent). Here is what it said:

"The ambiguity of the Keltenkreuzes, which was not only in representative arrangement emblem of the forbidden VSBD/PdA, but also as harmless symbol, in particular in culturalhistorical or religious being connected although to that extent rather rarely as representative indication - is used, can in the opinion the senate not thereby calculation are carried that the applicability § 86 A of the StGB is limited in cases, in which the representative Keltenkreuz a concrete purchase for the forbidden organization exhibits. A restricting of the criminal offence existence in such a way made would run that far strained protection purpose of the standard contrary and would offer in particular to supporters of the VSBD/PdA various possibilities of establishing the representative Keltenkreuz unpunished again as symbol of the forbidden combination in the public life. This danger can effectively only by a general prohibition of the use of the representative Keltenkreuzes in the public are met.

"Exceptions of this principle are valid however in continuation of the jurisdiction of the Federal High Court to the condition-conformal design § for 86 A of the StGB if the outside circumstances of the use of the symbol clearly devoted that the protection purpose § of the StGB does not affect 86 A, thus the symbol is used obviously in a harmless connection."''

It seems the second paragraph says that it may be OK if it is clearly being used for religious purposes.RoastDack (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

If I may ask, what of a person with a Celtic Cross tattoo travels to Germany where the sign is banned. Is the person going to get arrested for it? Norum 06:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the worst, poorly researched, misleading wiki posts ever. Any attempt to tie the Celtic Cross to Neo-Nazism demonstrates a complete and absolute ignorance of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.158.47 (talk) 04:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

One of the worst, poorly researched, misleading wiki posts ever. Any attempt to tie the Celtic Cross to Neo-Nazism demonstrates a complete and absolute ignorance of history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.158.47 (talk) 04:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

There are millions of graves and memorials using the Celtic Cross. It has zero relationship to fascism. The only tie is a deliberate attempt to mislead and turn millions of innocent Christians into something they are not. Ask yourself who would want to do such a thing? btw-Hitler was very much anti-Religion/anti-Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.158.47 (talk) 04:28, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

"British Isles"

I'd like to remind editors and potential editors of this article about WP:NPOV and WP:SOAP when it comes to the term British Isles. As much as some groups (governments included) and individuals may find the term British Isles distasteful when applied to "these islands" - it remains the case that the term has applied to these islands for far longer than have ideas like a united Ireland, or even a United Kingdom. The term itself comes, through Greek and Latin, from the original Celtic name for the islands. I can't say I'm exactly happy with the term, but NPOV and SOAP dictate I keep my views out of the articles and stick to the facts. Obviuously, this is open for discussion and I'm no dictator, but it seems fairly clear-cut to me. Jack of Many (talk) 04:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Celtic cross ?

The expression "Celtic cross" for crosses outside Ireland and a part of Great-Britain is clearly abusive (except those imitated from there). The French examples are not Celtic crosses (and there are less in Brittany than in Normandy or in Limousin) and the Galician crosses too. There are crosses with nimbus, but not Celtic crosses, the Celtic crosses are a kind of crosses with nimbus. They correspond to an evolution of the discoidal slabs we can find everywhere. Just a look on this well-made site http://sgdelestaing.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm. Regards Nortmannus (talk) 20:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Look at this, everybody is Celtic probably http://www.entrelacs-knots.net/les-formes/les-entrelacs-g%C3%A9om%C3%A9triques/les-4-feuilles-4f/ and this http://www.flickr.com/photos/49792992@N02/4598925871/ Genova Italy. Nortmannus (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Or the Saint-Maur cross. Saint Maur was Italian http://www.assomption.org/Presentations/CroixDeSaintMaur.htm RegardsNortmannus (talk) 20:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, very interesting, indeed. As long as I know, and I am speaking of Spain and of the Iberian peninsula, these Galician interlaced crosses are unique, thought I wouldn't be much surprised if they were to be found in Asturias or in northern Castille. On the origin of its use, well, the oldest known are to be found in Romanesque churches, so they can have reached Galicia from beyond the Pirinees (but then, we would expect to find them also in Castille), or even directly from the British isles, maybe with the Britons migrants who established in northern Galicia in the 6th century, or later. Cheers.--Froaringus (talk) 15:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)