Talk:Champagne (wine)

Champagne capitalization

Champagne from the Champagne region is a proper noun and protected designation from the European Union. Champagne with a little 'c' is like Korbel's California champagne is the imitation stuff that is not from the Champagne region. For reference, look at the consistent capitalization used by such wine experts as Katherine McNeil in the Wine Bible ISBN 1563054345 as well as these articles from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal, CNN, Farlax's dictionary entry on Champagne, Wiley wine guide, Champagne mfg themselves use the capitalized Champagne, as well as Wine Spectator. Simply put, in the wine world Champagne wine from France being a proper noun is common and consistent knowledge. The article should reflect that appropriately. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I inserted the following statement, which was quickly removed. As I indicated, I have no authoritative references, but it is factually true:

Regardless of the legal requirements for labeling, many consumers regard champaigne as a generic term for white sparkling wines, regardless of origin. The laws described here were intended to reverse this tradition and reserve the term as a designation of origin.

The problem is that the EU wants to claim that all other sparkling wines are imitations of champaign (as stated above), which is a matter of point of view, although legally inforceable in the EU. Passing a law does not make something true. I recall that some legislative body passed a law making pi = 3.00 --Zeamays 21:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The statement was removed because it was a rather imprecise generalization of the matter but also largely because there wasn't a source. It's a rather touchy subject but at least with a source attached to the statement the curious reader would have a resource to go to for further information. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 01:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately blogs don't pass the standards of reliable sources. I'll see if I can find a better source but if not then the text should probably be removed in a few days. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The French association of champagne-makers also capitalise the word: http://www.champagne.fr/fr_lire_etiquette.html Robma (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A word about the capitalisation of champagne. The OED writes, "champagne: White (esp. sparkling) wine from Champagne". I admit that you can find your French sources that give it as upper-case "C", but the French have wholly different capitalisation protocols from us British. It's the Légion d'honneur after all, while we call it the "Legion of Honour". So I don't think we need to be taking spelling lessons from them. The idea behind using lower-case "c" is, as the OED suggests, to helpfully discriminate between the wine and the region. I say "I love Champagne", but do I mean the region or the bubbly? No one knows if both are UC. As an aside, within British food and wine book publishing, lower-case "c" for the wine is the overwhelming norm. Ericoides (talk) 15:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Copied from my talk Champagne from the Champagne region is a protected name, essentially a brand name like Pepsi or Budweiser (note the capitalization in those articles). In that context it is a proper noun and should be capitalized. When the term "champagne" is being hijacked by producers like Korbel, it becomes a different thing entirely-more a "style" rather than a distinct wine and then it should be lowercase. This is the pattern followed by the vast, vast majority of WP:RS used in wine articles and so it is only proper that Wikipedia continued the correct usage. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Additional thought The two capitalizations are meant to distinguish between real, authentic (and protected brand name) Champagne and the products of imitators (like Korbel). There is no need to distinguish via capitalization between the wine and the region because people normally use the terms interchangeably anyways (like Bordeaux and Burgundy) to refer to both the wine and the region. When people do need to distinguish between the wine and the region, they normally would add the qualifiers "region" and "wine". Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd love to have the brazen confidence to disagree with the Oxford English Dictionary, the Collins English Dictionary, the Cassell English Dictionary, the Chambers English Dictionary, etc etc. But what do they know? I chuckle at your talk of 'hijacking' and 'authentic' given that French wine-growers imported root-stock from the US. Terroir you say? As for your analogy, I would say that a more useful analogy would be whisky: whisky is the generic name and Talisker or Highland Park are the brand names; likewise, champagne is the generic name and Heidseck, Moët et Chandon, or Krug are the brand names. Ericoides (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

One further thought. Surgeons have to be called Dr in their early career, before they specialise as surgeons, but once they become surgeons they revert to being Mr (or Mrs, or Miss). Mr, usually a humble term, becomes a moniker of distinction. I think it's the same with champagne (may I say I am touched by your attempts to protect its upper-case status). It went through the tedious showing-off phase of being called Champagne, but such is its fame and popularity that it is now honoured with a lower-case "c". (I don't know a thing about RSs, but is a dictionary not the highest court of RS appeal? Just one to ponder.) Ericoides (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I think this is just one of those things where there is no definitive "correct" answer, and a judgment just has to be made, based on what predominates out there in the real world, and then you stand by that for consistency's sake. Wine shops for example here in the UK (ranging from high street retailers like Majestic and Oddbins, all the way to the posher merchants like Berry Brothers), all tend to have an upper case C. You can check their websites for this. Books vary - for example the edition of Hugh Johnson's A Life Uncorked that I have (Phoenix/Orion) uses lower case; Robert Joseph's French Wines (Dorling Kindersley) has upper case. I wouldn't want to pick a fight with dictionaries of course, but do they necessarily trump everything else? --Nickhh (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think they do, as they record spellings (in your words) "based on what predominates out there in the real world". They are the RS par excellence for word spellings. You may set out to research usage in websites and books etc to find which spelling predominates but this counts as OR. And besides, the dictionary has already carried out this work for you. NB the OED doesn't even give champagne (the wine) an alternate spelling in UC. Ericoides (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

again, from Agne's talkpage Legally, and therefore to all practical purposes, there is no generic term "champagne". If you're not referring to sparkling wine from the Champagne region, you're not talking about Champagne and should be calling it "sparkling wine". Other sparklers with protected designation of origin, like Cava, follow the same protocol. --mikaul^talk 20:18, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

dittoOh yes there is. It's the word (generic level) that describes Heidseck, Moët et Chandon and Krug (species level). I made no mention of wines from outside the Champagne region. When describing wines from Champagne, champagne is quite obviously a generic term. I refer you to the OED: "champagne: White (esp. sparkling) wine from Champagne". Ericoides (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope, those are sparkling wines (generically) and Champagnes (specifically). The old colloquial use will probably pass out of use eventually; I see the dictionary use as proceeding etymologically from a time when any Champenoise-style wine called itself "champagne". Over the years the French have established the right to retain geographical names to describe their wines using their proper noun derivatives and set them apart from wines of a similar style, and they're still fighting.[1] In our article on that self-same product it should clearly be used as a proper noun and capitalised. An example by way of contrast would be sherry. It's plain "sherry" not because it isn't a protected name – the PDO is very vigourously enforced – but because there's no such place as "sherry"; it was never a proper noun, only a wine style. In any case, regardless of legal enforcement, when referring to the likes of Gorgonzola in its article it should be – and is – always capitalised. Parmesan, Burgundy and Port are all capitalised in their article in this context. No matter how you cut it, regardless of ownership of the name, in an article on sparkling wine from the Champagne region of France, the only reason to use the lowercase version is when it's in quotation marks referring to the way non-genuine versions were once described. --mikaul^talk 23:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Mick has pretty much hit the nail right on the head. This article is about Champagne - the sparkling wine that uniquely comes from the Champagne wine region of France. This article is not about "champagne" the sparkling wine style used (illegally in some parts) by some producers. To talk about "champagne" is to talk about something completely different then the officially defined, protected designation of Champagne. As I noted above, it is essentially a trademark like Pepsi or Budweiser. You wouldn't get much traction going to those articles arguing that it should be "pepsi" and "budweiser". Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:38, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm not noticing pepsi spelled lower-case in the dictionary. You might like to note that the OED has "port n. ~ (wine), strong dark-red (occas. brown or white) fortified wine of Portugal". Port with an upper-case "p" looks as pathetically pushy as champagne with an upper-case "c", but I guess in an encyclopedia in which trees and animals are in upper-case it's what one has come to expect. Incidentally, I can't recall hearing of a place called Port where port is made. If you say, "It's Oporto" then I'll just reply, "Sherry is from Jerez" and we haven't got anywhere at all. Secondly, if champagne is the species, then is Krug a sub-species? I don't think so; sparkling wine is the family, champagne the genus and Krug the species. Any taxonomist can see the structure. But it's all getting a little too big end of the egg vs small end of the egg so I'll bow out. Nickhh (above) has provided the only really sane response to my initial point. Ericoides (talk) 04:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a fascinating discussion, and I agree that references are important to support the contention that the word "champagne" is used to designated wines in this style from areas other than the Champagne region of France. Here's a dictionary definition I just located which seems in accordance with the way most people (in my experience) use the word: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/champagne

"Definition of CHAMPAGNE

1: a white sparkling wine made in the old province of Champagne, France; also : a similar wine made elsewhere 2: a pale orange yellow to light grayish-yellowish brown" I suggest that the article should reflect this usage - at the moment it just reads like a handout from the regional producers association and fails neutrality. If as Agne27 suggests, this is an article about such wine from the Champagne region rather than elsewhere, then there needs to be a separate Wikipedia article for other wines which are made by the same method and also call themselves champagnes. However, it would seem more sensible to simply make this article more balanced.

Twilde (talk) 15:30, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a separate article. It is called sparkling wines. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:26, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Pink champagne ?

anything on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 219.108.16.189 (talk) 05:19:15, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Please read the Rosé article on Wikipedia. Cheers. Zanusi 10:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Attribution note

Some content in the varieties section are from the merged articles Blanc de noirs and Prestige cuvée. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 05:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on assessment

This one seems more B than not but some extra thoughts are welcomed. Here are my thoughts...

• The referencing needs to be improved throughout the article.
• I think there can be some work down with the structure and flow of the article. For instance, the "Varieties" section starts by talking about grape varieties and then segways into different wine styles in a less than smooth transition. The serving Champagne & Champagne etiquette section could be merged together. The bubbles section seems out of place from the rest of the Champagne production etc. The health benefits and alcohol absorption should probably be merged.
• In terms of comprehensiveness, there doesn't appear to be any major section lacking which is what tilts it more to the B side. The only thing that would be a major concern is the absence of a viticulture section. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What about England?

From what I have heard, the english (technically) invented champagne. They imported green, flat wine from Champagne and added sugar and molasses to start it fermenting. They also developed the strong coal-fired glass bottles and corks to contain it. As the records of the Royal Society show, what is now called méthode champenoise was first written down in England in 1662. The French added finesse and marketing flair, but it wasn't until 1876 that they perfected the brut style. Any more info on this?

Not the best source ever, but I found this information in "The Book of General Ignorance". It contains information suitable for use on the TV program QI.

By the way, I am a newcomer (this is actually the first thing I have written on Wiki), so please do not bite me if I have done something against Wikipedia policy!

--Timdpr (talk) 16:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Since Champagne is well-known and equated with luxury and so on, many want to say that they were before Champagne in producing this style of wine, including the sparkling Limoux wines from further soouth in France. As to the overall history of sparkling wine (rather than just Champagne) I thought that some of this information would be available in the article Sparkling wine, but I can't see it there. Some history is included in the Champagne (wine region) article, but not that much about the production method. I believe you're partially right in that a light "fizz" initially occurred and was appreciated due to second fermentations in buyers' cellars, both in England and e.g. Paris. In those days wine was shipped and sold in barrel. The English definitely had an influence on the production possibilities of today's Champagne in another day, because they were the leaders of glass manufacture during the era when bottled wine became more common. The first strong, thick-walled bottles were (mass)produced in England.
A minor point, the brut style only refers to a quite dry wine, not the rest of the production process. At least during the 19th century, the standard style was quite sweet, probably because of a combination of sugar being luxurious in those days and the ability of sweetness to make a mediocre wine more palatable. Tomas e (talk) 08:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There's an excellent history of Champagne here which says that sparkling Champagne was being drunk in England well before 1662. The website is French, is run by on behalf of the champagne producers and cites it's sources. Richerman (talk) 15:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Another thing: it was also the distribution of wine and Champagne from France by the English / British to the far corners of its Empire (and the British love of good booze) that largely helped in creating the popularity and good reputation of not just Champagne but French wine in general. There were vineyards in Italy - for example - that were producing wines of equal quality to French wines, but suffered because of the Alps - so to speak - being where they were. Perhaps the artice could reflect the British influence on Champagne rather more than it does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.35.87 (talk) 17:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Indeed the British influence has played a prominent role in the historical development of Champagne. That is why it is so prominently discussed in History of Champagne. This article is already very long and meant to provide an overview on the modern entity of Champagne. We have splinter articles such as Champagne (wine region), Sparkling wine, Sparkling wine production, History of Champagne and Champagne in pop culture that more fully explore those topics. Trying to cram them all into this article would be counterproductive. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Oops - hadn't seen the "History of Champagne" article. Thanks... actually, "cheers" may be a more apposite comment. 86.174.35.87 (talk) 23:38, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

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What is Blanc de noirs?

The Varieties sections states that 'Blanc de noir (white of black) Champagne is pressed from 100% Pinot Noir or black grapes', the Blanc de Noirs section states is it made from 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two', which is it, a quick google seach is not conclusive. --Stefan ^talk 06:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Companion to Wine says that 'either Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier or a blend of the two' is correct. Camw (talk) 06:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I updated the page. --Stefan ^talk 07:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

French bias?

The French would like us to believe that champagne must be produced in Champagne. I have in front of me two empty bottles of U.S. champagne from a New Year's party. The first bottle is Domaine Chandon and says it's made with the méthode traditionnelle but does not include the word 'champagne' anywhere on the bottle. Bear in mind that Domaine Chandon is a subsidiary of Moët & Chandon, the company that produces Dom Pérignon. The second bottle is André, which denotes itself as 'California Champagne' because its parent company E & J Gallo Winery does not bother to use the traditional method. My question is, why should we say that the Domaine Chandon--made the EXACT same way as champagne from the region of Champagne--is not champagne and relegate it the title of 'California Champagne'? The French have created a dichotomy whereby companies like E & J Gallo are allowed to turn the term 'California Champagne' into a reference to a wine that is not even made using the method of the Champagne region WHILE other companies are making champagne THROUGH the traditional method IN California, but they refuse to call it 'champagne' either for fear of losing standing in the international wine community or because their parent companies are French. The U.S. and France have no trade agreement on the terming of champagne, though France has such an agreement with fellow members of the European Union. My dispute with this article is that the opening states: "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France,[1] from which it takes its name." The only source for this claim is [J. Robinson (ed) "The Oxford Companion to Wine" Third Edition pg 150–153 Oxford University Press 2006 ISBN 0198609906], which I claim is biased. Look at the third entry in the Wiktionary definition of champagne: "(informal, and legally incorrect in some jurisdictions) Any sparkling white wine." I would like to propose a middle ground, saying that since the term 'champagne' legally CAN be applied to 'any sparkling white wine' regardless of the method used or the place produced WITHIN THE U.S., saying that champagne "is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France" is NOT accurate for all jurisdictions. It's a minor change to the article I'm proposing, but an important one that merits consideration. All I want is a disclaimer that not all jurisdictions RECOGNIZE the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' and that some jurisdictions will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the method was traditional, and others will allow the term 'champagne' so long as the product is a bubbling white wine. Personally, I believe U.S. labeling law on this subject is too permissive in allowing André to be called champagne even though it is not made using the traditional method, but I refuse to accept Wikipedia telling me that the Domaine Chandon is NOT champagne. It is made using the traditional method, and the only reason--as far as I can tell--that Domaine Chandon doesn't call its 'Brut Classics' champagne is that its parent company is French. Domaine Chandon is made the EXACT same way as champagne made in Champagne. Since the U.S. allows André to call itself 'champagne' (it is only by the company's choice that it includes the term 'California'--there is no Californian or federal statute specifying that the term 'California' must immediately precede the term 'champagne', so André COULD decide to just call itself 'Champagne' and put 'Made in California' in tiny print along the bottom of the label and it WOULDN'T be false advertising), the Wikipedia article should recognize IN THE INTRODUCTION that not all jurisdictions recognize the Champagne region's claim and that different jurisdictions have different laws concerning the degree of similarity a product must have to the Champagne region's product in order to call itself 'champagne.' That's all I ask.Beeswax07 (talk) 01:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I was entirely clear: I understand that disputes over the term are mentioned in the introduction, but WIKIPEDIA takes a side! WIKIPEDIA opens by affirming the Champagne region's claim, which--to the reader--seems like it's the "Truth" with a capital 'T'. Then all other claims to the term--though they are equally valid in almost every jurisdiction in MY country--will appear invalid, despite the law saying otherwise. Wikipedia must not take sides in this debate that influences the world economy because Wikipedia is itself an important source. When people have debates about things like this and want to know a brief history of the issue, they trust Wikipedia. So if some person on a U.S. game show answers that champagne is 'any sparkling white wine' and loses a point because the show's producers trusted Wikipedia's statement that "It is produced exclusively within the Champagne region of France", the French will agree with the show's producers and American companies will agree with the contestant. The Wikipedia statement should read: "Some jurisdictions recognize ONLY the Champagne region's claim to the term 'champagne' while other jurisdictions allow other wines to be called 'champagne', either because they are made using the same method or because the final product is highly similar to the final product from the Champagne region. The issue of legality in internationally terming products 'champagne' has been a matter of contention between French and U.S. producers." NOWHERE should Wikipedia ASSERT that the Champagne region has an inherently correct claim.Beeswax07 (talk) 02:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I think you're confusing Champagne with sparkling wine, which has its own article. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, BTW it is not just the Oxford Companion but pretty much every reliable source relating to wine. We can pull up references from Tom Stevenson's Champagne & Sparkling Wine Guide, Katherine MacNeil's Wine Bible, Andre Domine's Wine, Gordon's Opus Vino...hell even Wine for Dummies. They all say the same thing. While Champagne and sparkling wine are the same type of wine, they are as different as Bordeaux wine and a Meritage. Champagne (wine) is a brandname that is recognized by governments such as the European Union. Sparkling wine is a wine that anyone is free to produce, in any method that produces bubbles. As I noted before, we already have a sparkling wine article to cover stuff like Andre's. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:49, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Counterpoint: A quick search reveals that Merriam-Webster, Collins, Random House, Princeton's WordNet, and the American Heritage Dictionary all recognise the use of 'champagne' as a term for some sparkling wine not produced in Champagne, France. Are you really asserting that all of these dictionaries are simply incorrect? 203.24.97.8 (talk) 12:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

That issue is dealt with in the introduction. Legally, Champagne is a certain product from a certain place. That Webster promotes a common misconception doesn't mean that Wikipedia should do so as well, hence this article's introduction.--Nwinther (talk) 16:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Funnily enough, the part of the introduction that deals with this issue was written by me about three hours before your comment. If you check the history of the page, you will find that the previous intro (which was current at the time of my earlier comment) didn't deal with it at all. I agree that Wikipedia shouldn't endorse one definition over the other. An encyclopedia is a descriptive, not a prescriptive, work. (as, ostensibly, is the Merriam-Webster dictionary) 203.24.97.8 (talk) 06:39, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Even if your counterpoint should stand, how would you propose the article should be written? Pretty quickly you'd have to use the word "sparkling wine" and also quite fast have to seperate real Champagne from all the rest, and it'd just get confusing. Where dictionaries have one purpose, Wikipedia - or any encyclopedia - has another. Try looking up America. To many people, it defines the USA, but in reality it's much more than that. This doesn't justify that we make an article "America" that's about USA. Same goes for England - often used in the sense of the UK.--Nwinther (talk) 12:00, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Sparkling wine is (and should be) a separate article from Champagne; the latter is a specific type of the former. Making the clear distinction is no more incorrect than having distinct articles on quartz and amethyst, or on mammal and horse. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's be honest, Champagne is just a sparkling white wine, albeit one to have been marketed so successfully it's pulled a flanker and got special marketing privileges and references in the industry. All very clever, but one can see why folk get a bit agitated about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.120.140 (talk • contribs)

No, that's not honest because it is incorrect. Champagne is a sparkling wine that is made in Champagne which is an unique product that reflects the particular people, place, history, soil and climate conditions of that region. It's just like the sparkling wine made from Chateau Ste. Michelle is a sparkling wine made from Washington State and reflects the people, places, history, soil and climate conditions of that region. Calling the Domaine Ste. Michelle sparkler is just as dishonest as calling a Krug a Washington wine. There is a reason why we have a Napa Valley AVA, a Chianti DOCG, a Cote Rotie AOC, a Rioja DOC, etc. It is because a wine made in a particular place is unique. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:08, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

It is interesting that Gallo's so-called California Champagne should be mentioned. Our article on the winery notes that even the United States has come around to barring the misleading use of 'Champagne' on new U.S. wine labels. Due to a certain amount of inertia and lobbying, labels which existed before 2006 were grandfathered. Gallo isn't selling five-dollar 'Champagne', any more than the guy in Times Square is selling you a five-dollar 'Rolex'. Unscrupulous producers have been allowed to trade on the reputation of real quality brands, generally with the tacit understanding that they aren't selling the genuine article. It's fair for us to acknowledge that there is a popular misconception (principally in the United States) that all sparkling wines are 'Champagne', but where there are questions about nomenclature we ought to rely on the consensus of both the world at large (which includes far more than just the U.S.) and on wine experts (including those in the United States) for determining correct usage. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Blanc de noirs" and "Blancs de blancs"

I think that "White of blacks" and "White of whites" is a poor translation - better would be "White from black (grapes)" and "White from white (grapes)", since it refers to White wine being made from black / white grapes. Wine is not made of grapes, it is made from grapes. (Yes, you could say that it is made of grape juice, but that is singular). DonaldQ (talk) 15:33, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Sinking

From unregistered reader: I believe the chapter on sinking champagne should be erased. I read the Swedish articles referred to in Swedish Wikipedia article on "sinking" (may easily be found following the link from this article) and it appears that some rich guys occasionally sink a bottle or two, but it's by no means common behavior. I don't think occasional showings of bad manners deserve to be mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.36.73 (talk) 05:55, 20 December 2011 (UTC)