Talk:Charles Manson

pathology?

could use more info on what psychiatrists think of him, what mental illnesses he had/has. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.15.165.150 (talk) 07:30, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2012

I'm requesting that the Charles Manson article be edited to reflect the fact Manson ALLEGEDLY believed in "Helter Skelter" but this has NOT been confirmed by the man himself. As a matter of fact, Vince Bugliosi stated in a recent interview that "Helter Skelter" was NOT on Manson's mind and the killers had the instinct in them already to commit the murders. This interview can be found on "YouTube" and is what I consider to be a total contradiction to Bugliosi's past claims. This is how I feel the following article sections should read:

{Manson allegedly believed in what he called "Helter Skelter," a term taken from the song of the same name by The Beatles. It was said Manson believed Helter Skelter to be an impending apocalyptic race war, which he described in his own version of the lyrics to the Beatles' song but this is debatable since Manson never publicly confirmed anything of the sort. According to prosecutor Vince Bugliosi, Manson supposedly believed his murders would help precipitate that war. From the beginning of his notoriety, this connection with rock music linked him with a pop culture in which he ultimately became an emblem of insanity, violence and the macabre.}

{Helter Skelter Main article: Helter Skelter (Manson scenario)

For some time, Manson had been saying that racial tension between blacks and whites was growing and that blacks would soon rise up in rebellion in America's cities.[29][30] He had emphasized Martin Luther King, Jr.'s assassination, which had taken place on April 4, 1968.[23] On a bitterly cold New Year's Eve at Myers Ranch, the Family members, gathered outside around a large fire, listened as Manson explained that the social turmoil he had been predicting had supposedly also been predicted by the Beatles.[26] The White Album songs, he allegedly declared, told it all, although in code. Furthermore, it was said he maintained (or would soon maintain), the album was directed at the Family itself, an elect group that was being instructed to preserve the worthy from the impending disaster.[29][30]

In early January 1969, the Family escaped the desert's cold and positioned itself to monitor L.A.'s supposed tension by moving to a canary-yellow home in Canoga Park, not far from the Spahn Ranch.[2]:244–247[26][31] Because this locale would allow the group to remain "submerged beneath the awareness of the outside world,"[2]:244–247[32] Manson called it the Yellow Submarine, another Beatles reference. There, Family members prepared for the impending apocalypse,[33][34] which, around the campfire, Manson had allegedly termed "Helter Skelter," after the song of that name.

By February, the so-called "Helter Skelter" vision was complete. The Family would create an album whose songs, as subtle as those of the Beatles, would trigger the predicted chaos. This is just a theory however and many have viewed the album differently. Supposedly, ghastly murders of whites by blacks would be met with retaliation, and a split between racist and non-racist whites would yield whites' self-annihilation. Blacks' triumph, as it were, would merely precede their being ruled by the Family, which would ride out the conflict in "the bottomless pit"—a secret city beneath Death Valley.[35] At the Canoga Park house, while Family members worked on vehicles and pored over maps to prepare for their desert escape, they also worked on songs for their world-changing album. When they were told Terry Melcher was to come to the house to hear the material, the women prepared a meal and cleaned the place; but Melcher never arrived.[29][33]}

{Crowe shooting

On May 18, 1969, Terry Melcher visited Spahn Ranch to hear Manson and the women sing. Melcher arranged a subsequent visit, not long thereafter, on which he brought a friend who possessed a mobile recording unit; but he himself did not record the group.[2]:156,185[36]

By June, Manson was allegedly telling the Family they might have to show blacks how to start "Helter Skelter".[2]:244–247[34][37] When Manson supposedly tasked Watson with obtaining money supposedly intended to help the Family prepare for the conflict, Watson defrauded a black drug dealer named Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe. Crowe responded with a threat to wipe out everyone at Spahn Ranch. Manson countered on July 1, 1969, by shooting Crowe at his Hollywood apartment.[2]:99–113[2]:91–96[38][39]

Manson's mistaken belief that he had killed Crowe was seemingly confirmed by a news report of the discovery of the dumped body of a Black Panther in Los Angeles. Although Crowe was not a member of the Black Panthers, Manson, concluding he had been, expected retaliation from the group. Spahn Ranch was turned into a defensive camp, with night patrols of armed guards.[38][40] "If we'd needed any more proof that Helter Skelter was coming down very soon, this was it," Tex Watson would later write, "[B]lackie was trying to get at the chosen ones."[38]}

{Hinman murder

On July 25, 1969, sometime Family member Bobby Beausoleil along with Mary Brunner and Susan Atkins went to the house of acquaintance Gary Hinman, to persuade him to turn over money Manson thought Hinman had inherited.[2]:75–77[38][41] The three held the uncooperative Hinman hostage for two days, during which Manson showed up with a sword to slash his ear. After that, Beausoleil stabbed Hinman to death in a panic. Before leaving the Topanga Canyon residence, Beausoleil, or one of the women, used Hinman’s blood to write "Political piggy" on the wall and to draw a panther paw, a Black Panther symbol.[2]:33, 91–96, 99–113[42]

In magazine interviews of 1981 and 1998–99,[43][44] Beausoleil would say he went to Hinman’s to recover money paid to Hinman for drugs that had supposedly been bad; he added that Brunner and Atkins, unaware of his intent, went along idly, merely to visit Hinman. On the other hand, Atkins, in her 1977 autobiography, wrote that Manson directly told Beausoleil, Brunner, and her to go to Hinman’s and get the supposed inheritance—$21,000. She said Manson had told her privately, two days earlier, that, if she wanted to "do something important," she could kill Hinman and get his money. Whether this is a factual account or not on the part of Atkins remains to be seen[41]}

{Tate murders

Beausoleil was arrested on August 6, 1969, after he had been caught driving Hinman's car. Police found the murder weapon in the tire well.[2]:28–38 Two days later, Manson allegedly told Family members at Spahn Ranch, "Now is the time for Helter Skelter."[2]:258–269[38][45]

On the night of August 8, Manson allegedly directed Watson to take Atkins, Linda Kasabian, and Patricia Krenwinkel to "that house where Melcher used to live" and "totally destroy everyone in [it], as gruesome as you can."[2]:463–468[46] He supposedly told the women to do as Watson would instruct them.[2]:176–184, 258–269 Krenwinkel was one of the early Family members, one of the hitchhikers who had allegedly been picked up by Dennis Wilson.[2]:250–253 The current occupants of the house, all of whom were strangers to the Manson followers, were movie actress Sharon Tate, wife of famed director Roman Polanski and eight and a half months pregnant; her friend and former lover Jay Sebring, a noted hairstylist; Polanski's friend and aspiring screenwriter Wojciech Frykowski, and Frykowski’s lover Abigail Folger, heiress to the Folger coffee fortune.[2]:28–38 Tate's husband, Polanski, was in London working on a film project; Tate had been visiting with him and had returned to the United States only three weeks earlier.[citation needed]}

{LaBianca murders

The next night, six Family members—Leslie Van Houten, Steve "Clem" Grogan, and the four from the previous night—rode out at Manson’s alleged instruction. Displeased by the panic of the victims at Cielo Drive, Manson accompanied the six. He allegedly wanted "to show [them] how to do it."[2]:176–184, 258–269[48] After a few hours’ ride, in which he considered a number of murders and even attempted one of them,[2]:258–269[48] Manson allegedly gave Kasabian directions that brought the group to 3301 Waverly Drive. This was the home of supermarket executive Leno LaBianca and his wife, Rosemary, a dress shop co-owner.[2]:22–25, 42–48 Located in the Los Feliz section of Los Angeles, it was next door to a house at which Manson and Family members had attended a party the previous year.[2]:176–184, 204–210}

{Hoping for a double crime, Manson had allegedly gone on to direct Kasabian to drive to the Venice home of an actor acquaintance of hers, another "piggy." Depositing the second trio of Family members at the man's apartment building, he drove back to Spahn Ranch, leaving them and the LaBianca killers to hitchhike home.[2]:176–184, 258–269 Kasabian thwarted this murder by deliberately knocking on the wrong apartment door and waking a stranger. As the group abandoned the murder plan and left, Susan Atkins defecated in the stairwell.[2]:270–273}

If you people aren't willing to allow the article to be edited, the least you can do is permit a disclaimer to be posted at the top of the page stating that some items in the article can be deemed as debatable contrary to popular belief. I have to say, I find it rather convenient that you chose to make this article semi-protected. I guess the possibility of the flip-side to the Manson case being exposed is too much for you huh? It seems you're so willing to accept the sensationalistic "Helter Skelter" drama and don't want anyone to believe anything else. Why else would this page be semi-protected? I can't think of 1 good reason for this.

ATWA WOLF (talk) 18:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The article is semi-protected because of persistent vandalism and questionable editing from disruptive users. Any autoconfirmed editor can edit the article, keeping in mind that their edits will be watched but many, and judged accordingly with the many policies and guidelines that are in place. Cheers. Doc talk 19:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Typo

There is a typo in section 5.1 Remaining in view.

Bobby Beausoleil's last name is misspelled as Beausoliel.

Elpato77 (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Y Done Thanks! Doc talk 23:52, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggested clarification

The article's section headed "Trial" begins as follows:

The trial began June 15, 1970. The prosecution's main witness was Kasabian, who, along with Manson, Atkins, and Krenwinkel, had been charged with seven counts of murder and one of conspiracy.

This is a reference to the trial of Manson and the three women for the Tate and LaBianca killings — but that is not clear to the reader. The reader unfamiliar with the events might be wondering whether the trial also had to do with the Crowe shooting and the Hinman murder, which the article mentions earlier, among "Family crimes." In fact, someone who posted on this talk page a while back said he wasn't clear what murders Manson had been convicted of.

Maybe the first of those two sentences quoted above should be reworded:

The trial of Manson and three women for the seven Tate and LaBianca killings began June 15, 1970.108.36.209.26 (talk) 03:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Looks good - just make the changes, 108.! Cheers :) Doc talk 12:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the suggestion. I can't make the change myself; the article is locked.108.36.209.26 (talk) 09:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

And you know what my suggestion is on how to get around that, as always ;> Doc talk 04:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 March 2012

Bahhahahhahhahaha

108.12.182.235 (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Not done: No request. —C.Fred (talk) 01:06, 3 March 2012 (UTC)