Talk:Chinese Rites controversy

Dominicans?

Was it the Dominicans or the Franciscans? -- Error 01:44, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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The data dump of 21:25, Nov 17, 2004 by user:137.132.3.7 (proxy server for the National University of Singapore) seems to be from the public domain, see [1]. olivier 22:15, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

European intellectuals

I took out the following paragraph, as it doesn't add anything to this section.

At the time, there was fascination among European intellectuals with Chinese culture, Confucianism, and the Chinese language. Some even pretended that the Church declared Confucius as a Christian saint.

--Ricky81682 05:44, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Declaring Confucius as a Christian saint is a show of readiness for compromise, just like accepting the Chinese rites. And the fascination part explains why they had so high a concept of Confucius. -- Error 01:04, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, now I understand the context. I'll put it back. --Ricky81682 05:30, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think the Papal Bull banning Confucian ancestral veneration (note that I do not use the word "worship") has been superseded by a later Papal Bull under Pius XII.

Under the pontificate of Pius XII. the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda stated:

• Catholics are permitted to be present at ceremonies in honor of Confucius in Confucian temples or in schools;

• Erection of image of Confucius or tablet with his name on it is permitted in Catholic schools.

• Catholic magistrates and students are permitted to passively attend public ceremonies which have the appearance of superstition.

• It is licit and unobjectionable for head inclinations and other manifestations of civil observance before the deceased or their images.

• The oath on the Chinese rites, which was prescribed by Benedict XIV, is not fully in accord with recent regulations and is superfluous.

(S.C.Prop. Fid., 8 Dec., 1939) AAS 32-24

I think this information should be added to the article. Gugganij 28 June 2005 22:44 (UTC)

Confucius as a Saint

What does it exactely mean, that some even pretended that the Church declared Confucius as a Christian saint. Who? European intellectuals in China, Jesuit missonaries in China, some intellectuals in Europe? Some men/women of importance? Gugganij 28 June 2005 22:30 (UTC)

I think it was missionaries working in China, but I don't remember where I got the idea from. --Error 29 June 2005 00:06 (UTC)

I don't think anybody declared him a Christian saint, strictly speaking. But I have heard the anecdote that (Portuguese) Jesuits maintained he is, or is probably, saved, which, then again, is essentially the same thing. According to the anecdote, they were called to stop doing so by (Spanish) Dominicans, to which they replied: "Confucius is saved, which cannot be said about the King of Spain." --84.154.100.159 (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

The "two orders"

Just stumbled upon this page, and don't have time to fix this properly, but the passage

It was related to larger controversies between the two orders

Appears after only one order (Dominicans) has been mentioned. From reading some of the rest of the text it seems to me like the other order is the Jesuits, so I suggest the above sentence be rewritten to explain that. --Cotoco 08:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The controversy existed primarily between the Dominicans who were in Fuijan province and the Franciscans in Tokin/Cochinchina (Vietnam area)against the Jesuit accommodationist practices first developed my Matteo Ricci in the sixteenth century and continued by the Jesuits thereafter. The Dominicans first raised objections about the borrowing of Confucian terms, the leniency on converts participating in the civil Confucian ceremonies, the veneration of ancestors (similar to unorthodox veneration of charms or objects not worthy of worship) and other ambiguous cultural activities that hovered between social and spiritual importance. There was not a clear line of Jesuit vs. Dominican/Franciscan groups, since one Jesuit superior disapproved of these accommodating policies and another Dominican supported them, sending a letter to Rome on behalf of the Jesuits in East Asia. The Dominicans (largely Spanish) played the major opponents of the Jesuits (mainly Portuguese) and the matter became entangled with national loyalties, colonial politics, and economic enterprises. --Dcmcmurtry (talk) 04:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Church overturned ban

My Catholic church celebrates Chinese rites including ancestral honorings (not worship) during Chinese new year's

Chinese rites during mass

Translation of "God"

something strange in Clement's bull 1. in Clement's bull apostolic authority wasn't invoked 2. Translation of a phrase is a linguastic issue and has nothing to do with faith. though of the two english words "Heavenly Lord" and "Supreme Emporer" which is acceptable is a matter of faith. it's obvious Clement didn't understand Chinese. The one who possibly explained the meaning of these words is Charles Maigrot whose Chinese was judged "woefully inadequate" by kang xi. so when Clement XI was banning the word "Heavenly Lord" he actually banned "Tian Zhu"/"T'ien Chu" as "Shangdi" means "Supreme Emperor" see meaning of "Shangdi"(sœng dai cantonese) and "Tian Zhu" (tin dzü in cantonese) here http://www.cantonese.ca/religion.php The meaning of the bull is made clear when Clement repeated God should be referred to as God of heaven, of Earth and of everything. it's obvious "Heavenly Lord" is unacceptable instead of "Supreme Emperor". In Benedict XIV's bull ex quo singulari(I haven't found it) it says only "Tian Zhu" is acceptable. this caused great confusion. also the translation of "Catholic Church" in Chinese is "Tian Zhu Jiao" (Tin dzü gau in Cantonese) which corresponds to "Heavenly Lord's Religion"!

Another explanation for this mess: Clement XI understood Tian Zhu is "Heavenly Lord" and thought it's acceptable, the phrase "(Shangdi)" was added by someone else who thought "Heavenly Lord" and "Shangdi" were the same. However Clement XI and Benedict XIV both mistook "Shangdi" for "ShangTian/Shangtin". "Shangtian/Shangtin" indeed means heaven and should be banned. In one of the most unbelievable event the title "ex quo singulari" is translated "Zi ShangZhu ShengYi"-- "From the holy will of the Supreme Lord" if only "Heavenly Lord" is acceptable, then how come the translation of "Supreme Lord"? if "Supreme Lord" is acceptable then "Supreme Emporer" is also acceptable.

The same problem also exist in Vietnamese. What is more I've read a Catholic Vietnamese Bible where the word "angel" is translated as "Thiên Thần" which means "Heavenly god"!

What should be said about Clement and Benedict? They shouldn't venture into a field they're neither familiar nor protected by the Holy Ghost, made mistakes, created a confusion and did the Catholic Church a disservice. They could have simply banned refering to God as Heaven without addressing the meaning of each Chinese word

I fully agree with Clement and Benedict on their other points like confucius and ancestor worship.

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Delist

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