Talk:Circumcision

Medical associations

I've again reverted Gary's addition to the "Positions of medical associations" section. The problem with the addition is that it skews coverage too much in favour of the KNMG's position. KNMG's summary reflects their own viewpoint and biases; an equally valid summary, skewed in another direction, might say that "most medical associations agree with parental choice.

In the lead, one might argue that this is acceptable, since we get a concise summary supported by a secondary source. But in the section in question, the sentence was inserted immediately before the recommendations of the individual organisations; there's no obvious need for a summary, and it only serves to skew coverage. Jakew (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted Jake once again becasue I do not see his arguement as valid. A concise summary of medcial positions should be before the recommendation of the individual organizations in the section "Position of medical associations". Our old summary used to be here and in the lead where it belongs, and this one is no different. If you have a source that counters this assertion feel free to provide it. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say it was wrong, Gary, so asking me for a source countering the assertion is unreasonable. My point is not that it's wrong, but, rather, that there are several different ways in which one could summarise the various statements, and each of those ways reflects and reinforces a particular point of view. Given that there's no need for a summary here, due to the proximity of the quoted statements, it is best not to skew coverage in the direction of any specific point of view by favouring a particular summary. Jakew (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Jakew, it seems odd to summarize this view right before it is made here, and that "summary" is probably not the best anyways given the various different positions by the different associations. Please get consensus instead of edit warring to add it back. Yobol (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A summary in the beggining of the section is not only normal but what we have had for years in this section until recently. As I have said previously, if you have a better summary, or one that contest the current, I'm all ears. Yobol please read the definition of WP:EW before accusing someone of it. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a need for a summary there, as the various positions are laid out plainly and they are all quite nuanced and different, making a complete but accurate summary somewhat difficult. For the record, I did not accuse anyone of anything. Yobol (talk) 18:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

For the record Yobol, you were replying to me since you already agreed with Jake and this statement "Please get consensus instead of edit warring to add it back." implies that I had, or were going to, edit war. Sounds like an accusation to me. There is nothing in KMMG's statement that contradicts any of the medical statments that follow it. As a reader, if I came to the page and was curious of medical consensus regarding routine infant circumcision and skipped the lead and clicked on the "Position of medical associations" I would find the summary quite informative. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I was making a recommendation, as you had already reverted once. I did not accuse anyone of anything. Secondly, the statement by KNMG does not capture the nuances of the various positions of the different societies, and therefore would not be an appropriate lead in to the section. Yobol (talk) 20:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a summary, it's not supposed to (and doesn't claim too) capture all of the nuances of the various medical societies but the gist of their stance. It is helpful to the reader, properly sourced, and at the top of the section it is referring to, therefore it is appropriate. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on both points. Let's see what other editors think. Yobol (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The KNMG's view on what other medical associations say is simplistic at best, and unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association (the KNMG). Moreover, it gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. This is misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It is stating one simple fact, "no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision", and if it good enough for the lead it is certainly good enough for the beginning of the section it is describing. Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, nobody is saying that the statement isn't technically true (I've no way of knowing whether it is or not), but it's an extremely narrow perspective that doesn't take into account whether the organisations support or oppose parental discretion, whether they take a stand about the medical benefits of the procedure, what position they take about the information that should be given to parents, etc. It simply categorises associations according to whether they hold an extreme position (that all newborn boys should be circumcised). And because of looking only at that question, it's not a good summary. Consider, say, the American Urological Association, which recommends that circumcision should be presented as an option for health benefits. Jakew (talk) 17:01, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually Jake your reasoning is exactly why it is a good summary. As I recently explained to Yobol, a good summary is "not supposed to (and doesn't claim too) capture all of the nuances of the various medical societies but the gist of their stance." and if the reader wants more detail they may read on and get it. Common sense tells us most readers come here to find out more about circumcision to weigh it as an option for their son and advice from medical associations probably weigh heavily on their decisions. The summary is quick and to the point, which is why it's in the lead and why it should lead the section it describes. They all say there are benefits but the risks do not outweigh them enough to recommend routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I can see that, if one wishes to dissuade parents from electing circumcision, it's a good summary. For an NPOV encyclopaedia, however, it's a poor summary. Jakew (talk) 20:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

It's an accurate summary that reflects the current state of all professional associations of physicians. Readers/Parents may draw their own conclusions. First it was UNDUE now its NPOV eh? I suppose you feel all professional associations of physicians are biased because they do not recommend circumcision? Your conclusion is your own POV/OR Jake. It is the best summary we have and if its good enough for the lead it is certainly good enough for the section it is describing. Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The WP:NPOV policy includes WP:UNDUE, Gary (in fact the latter is a section of the former). Jakew (talk) 21:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I am aware of that Jake, just as I am aware that you are copping out and refusing to answer any of the questions I keep repeating. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘To repeat,

1. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section.
2. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association, that of the KNMG.
3. Its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not.

None of these points has been adequately addressed. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

1. Summaries are supposed to be simplistic, its accurate and does not contradict any professional association of physicians.
2. They are over 53,000 strong and would not be impressed by your assessment of them and all other major medical associations in the Netherlands also signed and endorsed this document. Please bring sources to back up your statements or stop wasting our time with your on OR/POV.
3. Sure it is... What material do you claim it's contradicting? Garycompugeek (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The quoted section of KNMG is not a 'view', it is a verifiable statement about the policies of medical organizations. It is not a medical opinion and it is consistent with all of our other sources making it broadly accepted. Leaving it in does not violate WP:UNDUE. Though, the summary of this section should indicate where medical associations recommend circumcision and their position when culture circumcision is performed. This information would compliment it appropriately.Gsonnenf (talk) 10:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It's only verifiable in the sense that we can verify that the KNMG expressed this opinion, but that's true of any sourced statement. It's fundamentally a viewpoint, and we've no way to verify its veracity. What we do know is that it's a poor summary, and it clearly gives undue weight to the KNMG by giving extra emphasis to what they view as important about the other associations' policies. Jakew (talk) 10:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It is verifiable because all other sources containing the positions of medical associations affirm it. The summary should discuss the positions of medical associations. As editors, we have the latitude to decide what is important to include. The medical associations position about routine circumcision, which has a historical context for being extremely common, is given proper weight.Gsonnenf (talk) 10:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're incorrect. To verify the statement that "no X includes the statement Y", it is first necessary to obtain every X, since the statement is wrong if only a single X includes the statement Y. In this particular case, that means that we'd have to identify the positions of every single professional association of physicians in the world. Most of those would of course be in languages other than English, which doesn't make that task any easier. So as a practical matter, it is essentially impossible to say with any certainty that no such association has made such a statement. All we can say is that the KNMG have asserted the view.

You're also wrong in your assertion that routine circumcision was historically common. In fact, routine circumcision (literally, circumcision of all newborn boys, see footnote 2 here) has never occurred in any country. (It's possible that it may happen in Papua New Guinea, per their recently announced policies, though it hasn't yet.) Elective circumcision is and has been common in many countries, but that's another matter. Jakew (talk) 11:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have some knowledge that we are not privy to? If you do, please share it. If there is some peer-reviewed secondary source which

proves that the KNMG did not correctly represent the viewpoint of every single professional association of physicians in the world, I would be interested. Otherwise, it is unsubstantiated guesswork, an unproven assertion. Tftobin (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that's an interesting source, providing another summary:

Most medical associations, such as the American Academy of Pediatrics,12 the British Medical Association,13 the Canadian Pediatrics Society,14 and the Royal Australasian College of Physicians,15 among others, maintain that although there are potential medical benefits associated with the procedure, on balance these benefits do not overwhelmingly support a policy of universal recommendation. [...] Most medical associations maintain that it is in fact justifiable—no medical body has advocated a policy that calls for the prohibition of circumcision.

Jakew (talk) 11:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Because there are finite recognized professional medical associations (and fairly small) I am correct that it is verifiable (unlike something like medical benefit, which is too broad and subjective to verify). Because this can be disproved by contradiction, the burden on opposition evidence is extraordinarily low. Your argument that it shouldn't be included because you don't have time to verify it violates WP:OWNER.

Your article on the definition of "routine" isn't consistent with typical medical association definition who apply it to opt-out procedures (such as recommending routine HPV vaccination for boys). Please choose a definition from medical associations. Also, certain cultures have historically practiced routine circumcision, the medical view on routine circumcision is important. This summary should discuss medical association view of elective circumcision.

Your argument that "All we can say is that the KNMG have asserted the view." is not valid. We typically summarize something as true when it is supported and confirmed by secondary sources, and there is no evidence against it. If we didn't take this view point, we would have to do in text source of every claim in this article.

And for gods sake Jakew. This is a NPOV discussion right here that you began! Quit removing the NPOV tag! Gsonnenf (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, I have not argued that "it shouldn't be included because [I] don't have time to verify it", and I do not appreciate having my views misrepresented. Please don't do that again. I have simply pointed out that your assertion that it is correct is unproven. The reasons why it should not be included have already been provided above.

Secondly, the definition of routine circumcision is as stated above. It is consistent with the AAP's use of language; for example compare their information for parents: "Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. How­ever, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised." with their formal policy: "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."

Finally, as has been explained to you previously, it is fairly typical for there to be at least one discussion in which the application of NPOV has been discussed. That is perfectly normal, and does not justify a tag. Please stop this disruptive tagging without adequate explanation. Jakew (talk) 13:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the HIV information from the beggining of this section on the basis of redundancy and the fact that they WHO does not represent the medical associations that follow it. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, I'd have preferred to organise this material differently, including WHO under an "International" subsection and the CDC in the "US" subsection. However, they are unquestionably positions of medical associations, so removing them altogether seems difficult to justify. Jakew (talk) 14:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a pretty bold statement considering you have no problem justifying the removal of the summary policy statement that is good enough for the lead but not the beginning of the section that it is describing. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If I had removed the KNMG statement in its entirety, Gary, you might have a point. However, the KNMG are still listed in the "Positions of medical associations" section. The WHO and CDC are not.

As for the lead, I originally said that "one might argue that this [KNMG's summary] is acceptable". There are some serious problems with this summary, and having thought about it further I'm not sure whether the KNMG's statement is adequate. Jakew (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes well that makes little sense considering they are two separate statements with separate sources. As far as KNMG's medical summary I'm sure you like it as much as the old AMA summary it replaced that took months of debate - ad nauseam - to include in the article as the best medical summary availible. If you have a better medical summary please present it. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by the first sentence of your response. Regarding the summary, I actually quoted a more balanced summary above, in this edit. Jakew (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes I saw that earlier but you did not provide a ref for me to properly evaluate and its paints circumcision in the best light possible so I'm not sure how well balanced it is. If appropriate perhaps we can work the two together to alleviate NPOV concerns but of course it would have to gain consensus with our fellow editors. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The ref was provided in the post immediately before, but to save you searching it's here. I'm not sure that I would agree with your claim that it paints circumcision in the best possible light; it's fairly easy to imagine a more positive summary (such as, "By and large, the statements of most of these professional bodies tend to recommend that medical practitioners fully inform parents of the benefits and minor, rare risks of having their male children circumcised."). But it seems self-evident that by addressing the questions of both routine and elective circumcision, it's more balanced than a summary that addresses only one of those dimensions. Jakew (talk) 16:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The ref you supplied comes from an article written by A M Viens, Department of Philosophy, St Anne’s College, Oxford University, Oxford, UK with by her own admission sets out to prove "I shall argue that in order for policy concerning the prohibition of circumcision to be acceptable it would have to be demonstrated that such a policy could be justified to those individuals with reasonable yet conflicting doctrines and whom this policy would concern." Hardly NPOV and certainly not on the scale of the KNMG. How can we compare a philosopher with a distinguished medical body for our professional medical associations summary? Garycompugeek (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Gary, very few sources adhere to NPOV; they all express POVs (including the KNMG). But I find it rather interesting that in your attempt to demonstrate non-neutrality you've quoted a part of Viens' paper that I hadn't proposed to include — suggesting that any non-NPOV quality is not a property of the summary itself. As for the fact that one source is a medical association, I fail to see why that matters. When acting as a secondary source (ie., summarising studies of circumcision) a medical association is a strong source because medical associations are presumed to be reliable about medical topics. But when acting as a tertiary source with respect to circumcision (ie., summarising policy statements) there's no such presumption: there's no particular reason why a medical association should be better equipped to summarise policy statements of other associations than a philosopher. Any university-educated individual should be more than capable of reading them, after all. Perhaps we ought to look at the more pressing question of which of the sentences in question best summarises the material? Jakew (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Reiterating:

1. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section. Summaries are not supposed to be "simplistic", they are supposed to be brief and accurate.
2. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association, that of the KNMG. 54,000 members is not a large number, and many medical associations have hundreds of thousands of members. For example, the British Medical Association has 141,000 members, the American Medical Association has 217,000 members, the Canadian Medical Association has 70,000 members, the Indian Medical Association has 1,780,000 members etc. In addition, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of medical associations throughout the world.
3. Its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. The material that follows is an independent listing of medical association positions - there are no guarantees that the KNMG examined the identical list of associations, or the identical position statements from them.

None of these points has been adequately addressed. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted Jake's attempt to rewrite our medical summary but I am open to compromise Jake. As I see it only goverments can prohibit circumcision. If you were to find a good source that states that we could modify the statement to something like,

"According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, however it has also been noted that no governments prohibits the practice. [15] Some bodies have discussed under what circumstances circumcision is ethical." Garycompugeek (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I find Jakew's version much more in line with NPOV, as the current one weights the findings of one small medical society over others, and does not do as good a job summarizing the positions of the various societies, so I would support a change back to that version. Yobol (talk) 14:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Yobol. Gary, medical associations can't prohibit circumcision, but neither can they mandate it. They could, however, recommend that it is prohibited or universal. Jakew (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

As do I. -- Avi (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

As do I. Per the issues raised above, use of the KNMG's view is highly problematic. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I must say I am a bit perplexed at the reasoning going on here. KNMG is belittled because they are a small medical association compared to some others yet you wish to replace their medical summary with one from one person who is not even in the medical field. I have replaced the KNMG summary that Jake removed, it is still the best, most accurate, and current medical summary that we have. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, not being a medical association is arguably an advantage when it comes to summarising their views. Let me explain why that is by analogy. Would one wish to use one particular political party's manifesto to summarise the views of all political parties? Or would one prefer to use an independent publication? Jakew (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Jakew, Is there a policy that supports your position against using medical associations? Chevara (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a "position against using medical associations", Chevara. In many contexts they're excellent sources. Jakew (talk) 17:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Jake but I simply cannot attribute the same weight of one scholar to that of an entire medical organization. Jayjg says this organization is too small to represent our medical summary then jumps right on board with your recommendation from a single non medical individual which you typically rage against saying "one person carries little weight or fridge view etc..". I have also placed KNMG summary back as the best on medical summary we currently have available. It goes against custom to remove material already in the article just because it is being discussed on the talk page. If we did that most of the lead would be gone while we debate HIV, medical summary and controversies. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, you still haven't addressed the points I've raised above. There are three of them; unless and until you explicitly do so, there is no justification at all for inserting the KNMG material. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:09, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg's points have already been sufficiently address. JakeW's political analogy is incorrect because the researcher in question is likely a more specifically interested party than the actual society. KNME researched the position of medical societies and came to their conclusion from aggregation of the position of major medical societies. The findings of a medical society should not be replaced by a much smaller source, this violate WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 12:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Mere contradiction is not a constructive form of debate, Gsonnenf. If you feel that Jayjg's point have been adequately addressed, then at least cite diffs as examples. You might also explain why "the researcher in question is likely a more specifically interested party"; merely asserting it isn't very convincing. In any case, both Viens and the KNMG based their statements on aggregation of the positions of these societies, and both comment on whether the societies recommend universal circumcision (they also essentially offer the same summary). Viens, however, also comments on whether they recommend prohibition of circumcision. This means that Viens can be used for a more informative summary without contradicting the KNMG's; yours is therefore a misapplication of WP:UNDUE. Jakew (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I think it's probably time for an RfC to get outside input to settle this, as further discussion seems unlikely to be fruitful at this point. Yobol (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

RfC: how should the lead summarise positions of medical associations?

There is a dispute regarding how best to summarise the position statements of medical associations in the lead (fuller discussion is at circumcision#Positions of medical associations). The two options considered so far include the following:

1. According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision.
2. Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice.

Jakew (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. #1 places too much emphasis on the opinion of one medical society, and WP:UNDUEly ignores that while routine circumcisions are not recommended, neither is circumcision routinely recommended against either. Of the two options, #2 is clearly a better summary of what is in the article and the positions of the various medical societies, which is the point of the WP:LEAD. Yobol (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 or use both. I think the KNMG source should be in the lede for several reasons; (a) Both medical organizations and general society can have polarizing views on this issue, with some countries implementing routine infant circumcisions from birth, and some trying to prohibit it. Considering KNMG represents one opinionated side of the spectrum, i think they're lede-worthy material. (b) KNMG is a reliable source and contemporary. (c) per wp:lead we should cover the most important points. If a major medical organization has taken a strong alternative stance as KNMG has, that makes it an important point, hence worthy of lede inclusion. (d) Yobols point above about "ignoring other arguments" is redundant because the third paragraph already makes that clear. (e) The second option is essentially stating the obvious, because its repeating something already covered in the third paragraph. I do not recommend this because it implies wikipedia readers are stupid.

• Support #1. I want #1, because it is more realistic. I don't find #1 simplistic at all. It is clear, and unambiguous. It is also honest about the position of medical societies. Tftobin (talk) 00:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

In short, because the 3rd paragraph cites a source recommending circumcision, it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to not use a reference which has the opposite view (if one exists). Pass a Method talk 21:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 or both. This is the only part of the lead that explicitly discusses dissenting professional opinion to circumcision. If we are to devote 23% of the lead to circumcision as HIV-preventative (without acknowledging dissenting opinion), and almost 10% of it to a comprehensive list of conditions circumcision is used for (again, without acknowledging dissenting opinion), is stands to reason that integrating this sentence is the least we can do for the lead's NPOV. There is a stark contrast in the rhetoric between this sentence and the one being proposed; changing this sentence to choice #2 significantly softens the sentence. What is wrong with letting our readers know that no single medical association on Earth recommends routine circumcision? It seems like there is a lot of merit to integrating this fact into the lead, especially after observing that 40% of the lead is dedicated to the benefits of circumcision. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association with 54,000 members (many medical associations have significantly more members e.g. the British Medical Association has 141,000 members, the American Medical Association has 217,000 members, the Canadian Medical Association has 70,000 members, the Indian Medical Association has 1,780,000 members etc). In addition, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of medical associations throughout the world. Also its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. The material that follows is an independent listing of medical association positions - there are no guarantees that the KNMG examined the identical list of associations, or the identical position statements from them. Source 2 actually accurately summarizes the positions of medical associations. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. More accurate and gives less weight to one out of many associations. This is the section on medical associations, let each one speak for themselves instead of giving one particular one undue weight. -- Avi (talk) 03:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. Per WP:LEAD, the lead is an introduction and a summary of the most important topics: "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." #2 is a general summary of the issue and satisfies this element of the Wiki policy. WP:LEAD also specifies that items should appear in the lead according to their importance to the topic: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources..." The position by the Royal Dutch Medical Assn is covered in the summary provided by the #2 statement. The position of the RDMAssn is not a major aspect of the article that needs to be mentioned in the lead. It is just one of several positions but is given undue weight by its mention in the lead and is inconsistent with WP: UNDUE.Coaster92 (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. As can be seen from the body of the article, most cited associations take a middle-ground position, neither recommending universal circumcision nor prohibition, leaving the decision to parents. #1 is a poor summary in this respect, thus failing WP:LEAD, because it fails to make this clear. By considering only whether they take one extreme position (recommending routine, ie., universal circumcision), it implies that their positions are more negative than they are. #2 is a much more balanced and informative summary. I also have concerns about using one policy statement to summarise others, especially when that policy statement is notable for taking the most extreme anti-circumcision position to date. It would be questionable at best to use a political party's manifesto to summarise the views of other political parties, since it would be likely that they would present those views in the light most favourable to their own. The situation here is comparable: their statement is the most favourable to their view. That doesn't mean that it's best suited to NPOV coverage; quite the opposite, in fact. Jakew (talk) 10:15, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Avi's last edit to the lead here, I don't understand how we can already say we've reached a consensus and that the debate is over. If input by Jayjg, Jakew, Avi, and Yobol constitutes as a consensus every time input is solicited in this talk page, I'm genuinely worried for the circumcision entry. Jakew, Avi, and Jayjg all share an extensive history of editing in favor of highlighting the benefits of circumcision while softening the narrative of dissenting opinion towards the procedure. Yobol has also exhibited a similar editing preference with these users, although to a lesser extent with respect to editing volume. Please also note that edit wars are looked down upon on Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:Edit_warring for more.

For the record, I didn't say we had reached a consensus. However, the change to the lede of the association paragraph is to add the KNMG position, and there is no consensus as of now to have that added (to wit, see this RfC). The stable version of the article did not have that sentence, and should be the one kept until consensus to override can be demonstrated. -- Avi (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

A very key component of the lead was omitted - mention that there is not one single health organization anywhere that recommends routine circumcision. What exactly is wrong with integrating this fact, when 40% of the lead is dedicated to the benefits of circumcision? The viewpoint is also not one specific to the RDMA, as you have all made it out to be. Try this 2011 text, which explicitly states "no medical association in the world recommends [circumcision]". Perhaps we could also try this text, which states "there is no medical justification for routine circumcision" and that "it should be performed only for established medical reasons and should not be universally recommended", to give credence to the fact that there is real opposition to routine circumcision. I am having trouble reconciling why there is so much resistance among these editors when it comes to integrating the fact that no medical association recommends routine circumcision in the lead.

Additionally, we are not giving readers an accurate picture of reality with this current revision, which states "most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice". As it is now, this recent edit would actually leave one with the impression that there actually may actually be a medical association somewhere in the world that actually does recommend circumcision - I think it goes without saying that we would know by now if one existed. We are not putting reality into perspective for readers of the lead. Aside from that, this edit further lessens the already-dismal amount of coverage in the lead regarding controversy.

Again, I am not opposed to sentence #2 accommodating #1, or vise-versa... This would help us convey a more accurate description of reality for our readers. I even propose that we condense the two to: While there is currently no association of physicians that recommend routine circumcision[15], most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice.[16][17]. Therewillbefact (talk) 10:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We do in fact state that most organisations don't recommend routine circumcision: "Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision [...]". But, as noted, we also acknowledge that they don't recommend prohibition either, so we provide additional information to the reader. As for the statement that no organisation recommends universal circumcision, we don't know that that's true. It would be a serious error to extrapolate from associations in English-speaking developed countries to the entire world. Many African countries have instituted large-scale circumcision programmes, and Papua New Guinea have recently announced a mandatory circumcision policy for all males. It doesn't seem much of a stretch to suppose that this is with the support of their medical associations, and lending support to that is a trilingual systematic review, "With few exceptions, donors, academia, professional medical associations and HIV advocacy groups supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection."[1] Whether those associations go as far as to recommend universal circumcision is unknown, but it doesn't seem impossible. Please note that I'm not saying that the KNMG are wrong, but it seems entirely plausible that one of the thousands of medical organisations out there does recommend universal circumcision. Jakew (talk) 11:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not have "an extensive history of editing in favor of highlighting the benefits of circumcision while softening the narrative of dissenting opinion towards the procedure" - do not make this false claim again. In fact, don't comment about me at all on this talk page; restrict your comments to discussions of article content. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:19, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Pot, meet kettle. Jayjy, you have drawn attention to my own contribution history in the past as an editor - it would be helpful if you were consistent with your own recommendations.

Jakew, to argue that there might be a professional association of physicians somewhere out there is not a good enough reason not to include it in the lead. You've cited mandatory circumcision programs primarily in high-risk areas, the topic in question is universal circumcision. Please keep this in mind. Additionally, the statement is found in sources other than the RDMA, as I've already mentioned. This edit to sentence #2 also cut discussion of controversy in the lead in half. Therewillbefact (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your first point, I agree: the fact that the KNMG might be wrong is not itself a reason to exclude it (there are, of course, other reasons to exclude it, such as those outlined above). I'm afraid I don't understand your second point: surely mandatory circumcision programmes imply universal circumcision in the context of the relevant geographical area? Finally, the edit is unrelated to controversy, which is discussed in the following paragraph. Jakew (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't misrepresented your editing history. You have misrepresented mine. Don't do it again. In fact, don't comment about me at all on this talk page; restrict your comments to discussions of article content. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:19, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, it seems unusually dualistic that you ask someone to restrict their comments to discussions of article content, when you posted excerpts of my replies from outside wikipedia to someone who happens to be a wikipedia editor in Talk:Circumcision. Does that seem as ironic to you, as it does to me? Irony is the kindest word I can think of Tftobin (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support both in the lead as they both provide interesting details. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1, and maybe #2 (rephrase) The KNMG view seems non-controversial, as I've seen no opposing statement. It appears to accurately reflect the current practice as a review of major medical associations reveals. For these reasons I believe it is the establishment view and remove it would be wp:undue. A following statement should be made that circumcision is usually allowed for cultural, personal reasons, etc. #2 or something could meet this criteria.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• KNMG's medical summary is accurate and up to date (2010). It illustrates the world prevalent medical opinion regarding circumcision. Medical associations do not have the power to prohibit only governments can do that. Medical associations either recommend or do not recommend, end of story. I completely disagree with replacing KNMG with one persons veiwpoint or even using it as a reliable source in this context. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • When you say "either recommend or do not recommend", do you mean recommend universal circumcision, or recommend prohibition? Jakew (talk) 19:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1 Is there any argument as to why the KNMG wouldn't be WP:RS for the statement that no medical association currently recommends the practice? If no, then I don't see why this would need in-text attribution and we could simply say that currently no medical association recommends routine circumcision. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support 2. The source supporting the second statement is from a peer-reviewed publication (and more closely meets WP:MEDRS). It summarises the position in a more NPOV fashion than the KNMG statement. JFW | T@lk 20:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support NEITHER. The lede is too big by far as it stands. Circumcise the lede. Its (current at the time of my writing this) closing para is adequate coverage for the point in question. Balanced discussion about who supports what and why (both sides) could quite reasonably be covered in the appropriate section(s) of the body of the article. Quite a lot of other current lede content should be similarly exported to the body and pared down in or removed from the lede. Within reason and in appropriate context and form there is nothing wrong with balanced representations of rival contentions in the body, but not as a rule in the lede, which should do no more than note the existence of contention, leaving details for later. JonRichfield (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Article ledes for lengthy articles like this are almost always four paragraphs. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg's remark is correct as an observation, but that is no recommendation. The only rational criterion for the structure of a lede is its helpfulness to a user who wants to know what the article is about, hardly more deeply than at dictionary level, plus what sort of subject matter to expect in the body of the article.

If it is necessary in the case of a non-contentious matter, such as the benefit of ascorbate for preventing scurvy, the lede might mention that without discussion, but in a contentious or contingent matter, such as circumcision, if one mentions it at all, one should limit the mention to the fact of the contention without going into the merits and demerits of the various divergent parties and their views. Such matters belong in the body. A lede that contains four paragraphs of material or discussion that must go up front for good reason, should be restructured into one or two lucid, compact sentences, and the residue should go into an introductory section with its own proper introductory heading. And if material is repeated elsewhere in the article in its own section, it should be no more than mentioned in the introductory section either. That is not what ledes or indeed introductions are for, either in WP, or in general good article design. More than half the long articles should have their ledes and introductions redesigned as things stand, IMO, and I speak as someone who is just a little obsessional about putting as much info as possible into an article.JonRichfield (talk) 07:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 Doctors recommending that doctors should never "cut in healthy meat". Seems uncontroversial to me. #2 is badly phrased. -- Honorsteem (talk) 10:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support #1. Version 2 is ambiguous and badly worded (is it circumcision or routine circumcision which is not prohibited?). --BozMo talk 19:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid your question doesn't make much sense. Since routine circumcision (which literally means circumcision of all males) cannot realistically occur without a legal mandate anyway, it's not meaningful to prohibit it. I'm guessing you may mean "elective" circumcision, and I guess there's some room for clarification. Jakew (talk) 20:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 Honorsteem nailed it with "never cut in healthy meat." Robert B19 (talk) 01:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. better wording and more consistent with our NPOV and RS policies, as outlined above by many editors.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible compromise?

So far, at least, there's an interesting division of opinion in the above RfC, with similar levels of support for #1 and #2. There seems to be some support for including more than one summary, and I've been thinking about how to do so in a concise manner. I'm just whether there's any support for something like the following:

• Summaries of the views of professional associations of physicians have included that none currently recommend routine circumcision, that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice, and that most support it for HIV prevention.

Any thoughts? Jakew (talk) 20:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm puzzled. Why are you now suggesting we integrate HIV prevention here? It does not dovetail at all with the sentences we are deciding between. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice" is awkward, tortured syntax. Bloggurzz (talk) 03:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I quoted the relevant sentence from that source above ("With few exceptions, [...] professional medical associations [...] supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection"). I think it's no less useful a summary of the views of such associations as either of the others. And if we're to take a step back and say that there are several different summaries, it makes sense to include a broad selection. That is to say, I couldn't think of a good reason to exclude it. Jakew (talk) 09:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Aside the last phrase it is ok but I think there is quite a lot of missing context in the HIV phrase. I mean, no one supports routine circumcision worldwide for HIV prevention (which is how the comment is likely to be read). There are specific circumstances in which "most believe it has a role in HIV prevention". --BozMo talk 12:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. If we changed the order of presentation, we could minimise the chances of the HIV phrase being misinterpreted as being about routine circumcision: "Summaries of the views of professional associations of physicians have included that most support it for HIV prevention,[4] that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice,[3] and that none currently recommend routine circumcision.[1]" Jakew (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

jakew, you might want to review an elementary book on style and composition. You're trying to stuff too much into one sentence. 189.115.193.157 (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

the irony is "too" much.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's an awkward, hard-to-decipher sentence, Jakew. It would give a reader the impression that state most professional associations of physicians support circumcision because of its HIV prevention qualities... Therewillbefact (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The source states that most professional medical associations "supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection"; I fail to see why there is any problem with doing the same... Jakew (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe because not a single professional medical association recommends circumcision to prevent HIV. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's a moot point anyway, since the statement is that they support it, rather than recommend it. Jakew (talk) 19:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

6 people supported 1 and 2 people suport both, which totals to 8. This means #1 should be in the lede somehow, right?. Pass a Method talk 10:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems likely that we'll need to negotiate a compromise of some sort. Jakew (talk) 10:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

old compromises

How about we add the two together like this; "According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, but most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." Pass a Method talk 13:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That would read as though the KNMG were making both statements, which they don't (and if they did, it would be redundant, since routine and universal circumcision have the same meaning). Jakew (talk) 13:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think 4 people supported using both, so how about we use both in seperate sentences? similar to above but in two setences? Pass a Method talk 14:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to give some indication of why we're including summaries that at least partly overlap. Otherwise it reads oddly due to the redundancy. The real reason for including more than one summary is that different authors have summarised these policies differently (perhaps reflecting their own different viewpoints). That's why I proposed "summaries of the views ... have included" wording: to make explicit the fact that we're including multiple summaries. Jakew (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How about this wording?

"Views from medical associations vary from claiming no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, or that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." Pass a Method talk 16:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's poorly worded. Firstly, it's not that the views from medical associations vary per se; it's that summaries of such views vary. Also, the usual sentence structure ("vary from ... or") is unconventional. More usual would be "vary from ... to ...", but that raises the question of whether these are actually the extremes. That's why I chose the "have included" format: it doesn't imply that these represent the extremes. Jakew (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Fourth try.

"Views from medical associations include claims that no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, and that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice."

Pass a Method talk 18:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:CLAIM. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, the same problem as above, these are summaries of views of medical associations, not views themselves. Jakew (talk) 18:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Compromise for lede

What's your opinion of this inclusion?

"Summaries of views from medical associations have included that no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, and that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice."

Pass a Method talk 18:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Much better, but why exclude "and that most support it for HIV prevention" (from my initial compromise proposal above)? Jakew (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the lede speaks about HIV too much as it is as othershave already implied. Pass a Method talk 19:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not a valid argument. The question is what summaries of the views of medical associations have been published. To argue that some summaries are unacceptable because you don't think the content is very important is ludicrous. It's not supposed to be your summary; it's theirs. Jakew (talk) 19:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I hope we're not going to go back to counting the number of words in the lede and calculating percentages again. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The wording of the last RFC did not include any mention of HIV, therefore it is disrespectful to the 15 editors above, none of whom supported any HIV mention. If you want to mention HIV, discuss that in a subsequent discussion. Not this one. Pass a Method talk 20:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The RFC clearly stated: "The two options considered so far include the following" (emph added). Hence it did not exclude discussion of alternatives. Jakew (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but why do you think its important to be so repetitive on HIV? The lede already mentions something very similar twice: (a) "circumcision reduces the risk of HIV", (b) "The WHO currently recommends circumcision for prevention of HIV" Pass a Method talk 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is repetitive. The statement which you've labelled (a) is about the association between circumcision and HIV, not what any organisation thinks about it. Statement (b) is about what a single medical organisation (albeit a highly influential one) recommends. Neither statement provides information about how medical associations as a whole have responded. Jakew (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The lead should not give information on every single medical finding about circumcision. More detailed descriptions go to the subsections. For this reason things such as urinary fistulas, chordee, cysts, lymphedema, ulceration of the glans, hypospadias, epispadias etc. are not in the lede - so a not to clog it.

Why would we need to add "most support it for HIV prevention", when it sounds very similar to two phrases in the same paragraph? Your suggestion is not only repetitive, but it is extremely repetitive. In fact, it is so repetitive i can't believe you proposed it. Pass a Method talk 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As I explained, I don't think it is repetitive, and "sounding similar" does not imply that it has a similar meaning. Frankly, I think that "most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice" is a perfectly adequate summary of the views of medical associations. However, if it's so important to include the KNMG's summary as well, then you're introducing a certain amount of redundancy. It's difficult to justify including one in spite of redundancy, but excluding another because it "sounds similar" to something else. Jakew (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We're getting sort of off-topic now. Instead of debating the HIV section now, why not instead first add it without the HIV bit, and then later try seek consensus for the HIV part? Deal? Pass a Method talk 22:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I don't understand why we'd leave out one summary of medical association views while leaving in two others - there does not appear to be any specific policy or guideline-based rationale that I can discern. On the contrary, it would seem to violate WP:NPOV to do so. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That sentence is about whether Circumcision is recommended, not what it is recommended for. HIV is discussed adding it again violates WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Your response does not address the point I have raised. Please re-word or re-state it in a way that directly addresses the point regarding leaving out one specific summary out of three, and therefore violating WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE weight given to HIV section in lead

The HIV paragraph in the lead does not convey the criticism attributed to it and violates WP:NPOV standards. I suggest changing it to

Circumcision is used therapeutically, as one of the treatment options for balanitis xerotica obliterans, phimosis, balanitis, posthitis, balanoposthitis and urinary tract infections.[10][11] Conflicting evidence exist that indicates circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66% in populations that are at high risk in conjunction with consistent safe sexual practices to maintain the protective benefit.[78] Garycompugeek (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

We've already discussed this at length, Gary. Jakew (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree discussion on this lead needs to continue. A minority of authors ignored the policy based criticisms and changed it without consensus. This lead is obviously a turd and needs to be revised until we can come to consensus.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

There comes a point when endless discussion becomes unproductive, and I think we've passed that point. Jakew (talk) 09:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, it's only unproductive for the status quo. It's way past time to re-write the lede. It relies on the United Nations too much. I have a relative who's a veterinarian with the United Nations. He's really opened my eyes about the political control from the top. U.N. medical groups work for the political agenda of their bosses. Chevara (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of your personal opinion, here on Wikipedia, the WHO is considered a high quality source, and to suggest that it is not will not get you anywhere. If you would like, you can take it up on the reliable sources noticeboard to see if you can get an agreement that the WHO is not reliable, but until that happens, we shouldn't be wasting our time even discussing the topic. Yobol (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I am seconding Gary's suggestion. By word count, almost a quarter of the lead is dedicated to the association of circumcision and lower HIV rates in high-risk areas. By contrast, roughly 10% of the lead discusses a controversy. We still have not been given a reason why such a disproportionate amount of the weight is placed on the health benefits of HIV compared to discussion regarding controversy. Additionally, there is no acknowledgment of opposing viewpoints, even though - using jakew's own numbers - 8% of recent professional opinion opposed to the narrative of circumcision as "strong" evidence (see Talk:Circumcision/Archive_69#Paragraph_Three). Therewillbefact (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

WHO is one of many high quality source, though its generally recognized they have a higher degree of political affiliation, and there opinion should be taken in context.Gsonnenf (talk) 01:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We've asked what reliable material from review articles should be added to the "controversy" part of the lede, but have yet to receive any concrete suggestions. "Higher degree of political affiliation" is meaningless in this context. The two sentences on HIV present the consensus of review articles on the efficacy of circumcision in reducing HIV rates, and size of the HIV section in the lede was recently cut almost in half; there has never been any consensus to reduce it even further. Again, it's two sentences. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

While the content may be covered in two sentences, Jayjg, these are also the longest sentences in the lead, averaging over 30 words each. The longest sentence in the lead is actually the one devoted to HIV, a word salad of 34 words. Given this, I do not think sentence count is an appropriate litmus test for weight here.

Aside from the two sentences you are referring to, the only other sentence with a length of over 22 words is actually the one dedicated to controversy. As of today, this is the only sentence dedicated to controversy surrounding circumcision in the lead. There might have been two sentences regarding controversy yesterday, but this was cut in half today - please keep this mind during our discussion. Right now, the amount of content regarding HIV and circumcision outnumbers that of controversy by over 2:1 in word count, and 2:1 using your own barometer, sentence count. Again, we haven't seen an explanation of why this disparate difference in content weight is appropriate yet. Therewillbefact (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, several people have asked what material from review articles should be added to the controversies material in the lede, but not gotten any specific suggestions. In addition, you haven't explained why "2:1" is an "inappropriate content weight" - just claiming it is isn't good enough. And finally (to repeat something I've pointed out many times), word count is a purely mechanistic method of analyzing a lede, and one which is neither appropriate nor supported by guideline or policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I oppose this suggestion. Probably more effective to put it forth as a RfC though.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The current Lede weights too heavily with United Nations and World Health Organization recommendations intended for Third World nations. The World Health Organization Member States are grouped into six regions. Each region has a regional office that has established an HIV Regional Action Plan through 2015. Only the Regional Office for Africa and the Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean (Islamic) recommend male circumcision in their regional plans. The Regional Offices for the Americas, South-East Asia, Europe, and the Western Pacific do not mention circumcision in their HIV Regional Action Plans. Chevara (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that's true, I'm afraid I can't quite see the relevance. Given that more than a billion people live in Africa, recommendations involving those people are hardly insignificant in global terms. And in fact much of the recent literature on circumcision discusses this population. Jakew (talk) 20:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

This is my first time visiting this particular Wikipedia page, but I agree that the opening paragraph's discussion of circumcision HIV is bizarrely out of place. There is already a later section discussing in detail the role that some medical professionals believe circumcision might have in disease prevention, so anything more than a brief mention of disease in the intro is overkill. Also, the use of the phrase "strong evidence" is not NPOV, since there is actually debate about the biological significance of circumcision in HIV prevention among scientists and physicians, and there is poor correlation between circumcision and HIV prevalence worldwide. Now, I don't think we need to go into that controversy until the later section of the article, either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceGalKK (talk • contribs) 15:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Each World Health Organization Regional Office has its own website. http://www.who.int/about/regions/en/index.html Does everyone stipulate to the following statement of fact: "The World Health Organization Member States are grouped into six regions. Each region has a regional office that has established an HIV Regional Action Plan through 2015. Only the Regional Office for Africa and the Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean (Islamic) recommend male circumcision in their regional plans. The Regional Offices for the Americas, South-East Asia, Europe, and the Western Pacific do not mention circumcision in their HIV Regional Action Plans." Chevara (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Please quote the reliable source that makes that claim. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

1. European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012-2015 2011, v + 72 pages ISBN 978 92 890 0252 3 http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/153875/e95953.pdf (No Mention of Circumcision in the 72 page European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012-2015) From p. 72 - "The primary audience for the European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012–2015 is the national authorities in the WHO European Region responsible for HIV diagnosis, prevention, treatment, care and support, including health ministries and other government bodies responsible for health. The Action Plan is also intended for national authorities and ministries other than those directly responsible for health, including finance, education, social welfare, child protection, transportation, infrastructure, criminal justice, labour, immigration, development, defence, and foreign affairs, as well as associations, professional bodies, researchers, academics, civil society, advocacy groups, trade unions, the private sector, and international and global partners, including bilateral and multilateral donors."

"The WHO Regional Office for Europe is one of six regional offices throughout the world, each with its own programme geared to the particular health conditions of the countries it serves. Albania Andorra Armenia Austria Azerbaijan Belarus Belgium Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Croatia Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Estonia Finland France Georgia Germany Greece Hungary Iceland Ireland Israel Italy Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Latvia Lithuania Luxembourg Malta Monaco Montenegro Netherlands Norway Poland Portugal Republic of Moldova Romania Russian Federation San Marino Serbia Slovakia Slovenia Spain Sweden Switzerland Tajikistan The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Turkey Turkmenistan Ukraine United Kingdom Uzbekistan"

Regional Office for the Americas Pan American Health Organization Region Office of the World Health Organization 2. Regional HIV/STI Plan for the Health Sector 2006-2015 http://new.paho.org/hq/dmdocuments/2008/HIV_Regional_Plan_2006-2015_eng.pdf (No Mention of circumcision) Countries in the WHO Region of the Americas: Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Bahamas Barbados Belize Bolivia (Plurinational State of) Brazil Canada Chile Colombia Costa Rica Cuba Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador El Salvador Grenada Guatemala Guyana Haiti Honduras Jamaica Mexico Nicaragua Panama Paraguay Peru Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Suriname Trinidad and Tobago United States of America Uruguay Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)

World Health Organization Regional Office for South-East Asia 3. REGIONAL HEALTH SECTOR STRATEGY ON HIV, 2011–2015 (41 pages) http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/HIV-AIDS_Reg_Health_Sector_Strategy_HIV_2011-2015.pdf (No Mention of Circumcision)

4. Remarks by Dr Shin Young-soo WHO Regional Director for the Western Pacific at the 10th International Congress on AIDS in Asia and the Pacific Busan, Republic of Korea 26 August 2011 http://www.wpro.who.int/regional_director/speeches/speech_20110826a.htm

Message of WHO Regional Director for the Western Pacific, Dr Shin Young-soo, on World AIDS Day, 1 December 2011 http://www.wpro.who.int/regional_director/speeches/message_20111130.htm (No Mention of Circumcision for Western Pacific Region in documents or Regional Director's remarks.)

5.Joint Strategic Action Framework to Accelerate the Scale-Up of Voluntary Medical Male Circumcision for HIV Prevention in Eastern and Southern Africa 2012–2016 http://www.pepfar.gov/documents/organization/178294.pdf

World Health Organization Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean http://www.emro.who.int/asd/elements_circumcision.htm 6. HIV/TB strategy for the Eastern Mediterranean Region An HIV/TB strategy for the Eastern Mediterranean Region 2006–2010 Document forthcoming http://www.emro.who.int/asd/plan_hiv_tb.htm

Jayjg, you'll note that only the African and Eastern Mediterranean Regions have adopted or mentioned circumcision in their strategic HIV plans. The other four regions ignore circumcision in their Action Plans. Chevara (talk) 02:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

So there are no reliable sources that state this, this is all based on your own original research? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, for Wikipedia, the prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed. I'm not suggesting that we include the European or Americas HIV Action Plans in the article. These WHO Action Plans are certainly relevant to our discussion on this page, whether the Lede weighs too heavily on the African Action Plan for HIV/AIDS, and ignores the majority of WHO Regions' policy, and especially the Regional HIV Action Plans for the nations of most editors here. Chevara (talk) 16:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

First, the prohibition against OR applies to talk pages too, albeit not to quite the same extent; see WP:TALK#Maintain Wikipedia policy. Second, the lead doesn't even mention an African Action Plan, so it is difficult to see how it would be weighted too heavily, and thirdly you still haven't responded to the points I raised in my post dated 20:02, 12 February 2012. Jakew (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

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• As far as I've seen, all evidence of circumcision being a preventative of HIV transmission are based on heterosexual vaginal-penile transmission. Given that the AIDS epidemic in the Americas, Europe, and other areas are primarily based on transmission other than vaginal-penile transmission (e.g., homosexual, IV drug use, blood transfusions and other iatrogenic transmissions), it shouldn't surprise anyone that no mention is made in several areas of WHO, but it's omission also proves nothing about WHO's ideas about whether circumcision ought be tried to stem heterosexual vaginal-penile transmission. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

A number of editors have acknowledged the WHO's different Regional Action Plans for HIV without being disturbed by the implications. Are we writing this article for non-English speakers from Africa, to make sure they have the latest World health HIV prevention guidelines for their specific region. Does a regional study, adopted nowhere else, belong in the Lede? Anyone familiar with a bureaucracy realizes that four of the six WHO regions dumped the HIV/circ studies in the waste basket. We put it in Wikipedia. Chevara (talk) 03:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written with a global perspective (see WP:NPOVFAQ#Anglo-American focus), on the basis of the emphasis given in reliable sources. A brief look at the PubMed database, for example, will reveal that a large amount of emphasis is currently given to circumcision in Africa alone. Thus, it's important. Your conclusion that WHO regions "dumped the HIV/circ studies in the waste basket" is original research, and is inconsistent with the fact that WHO's recommendations are to employ circumcision in areas with high HIV rates and low circumcision rates. It should therefore be unsurprising that regions with a large number of countries matching that description (eg., Africa) are paying more attention to circumcision than regions such as Europe, which have few. Jakew (talk) 09:29, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Chevara has demonstrated that even other WHO offices around the world disregard this HIV recommendation and Jake is also correct that it only applies to a very limited scope so I ask again why we place so much weight on this? Is it lead worthy? No not at all. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

No, Chevara has not demonstrated that. We place considerable weight on it because sources do. Jakew (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think Chevara has shown insight into what sources are not giving it considerable weight, and those are important sources considering how much HIV affects them. Gsonnenf (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Not very helpful considering we have plenty of sources that take issue with the African HIV trails. What you meant was WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of "plenty" of reliable secondary sources that "take issue with the African HIV trails". Are there any review articles that come to that conclusion? Also, your accusation of "WP:ICANTHEARYOU" is highly uncivil. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

When you talk about uncivil behavior, I have to believe you are joking. There is an expression, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. There are editors who would be wise to practice what they preach Tftobin (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what your comment has to do with article content. Please review WP:NPA and WP:TPYES. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOR applies to article content. wiki authors must do research and aggregation to determine what weight a source should be given. Please stop improperly applying wiki policy. The standard procedure is to aggregate reliable and dominant sources and identify what is the majority view. Chevara has gone above and beyond, doing an excellent job of determining what the majority view is and you should respect his findings instead of trying to wiki lawyer them away. Gsonnenf (talk) 03:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘"Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" etc. are statements that have nothing to do with WP:NOR or any other policy; in fact, they have nothing to do with article content at all. The banned sockpuppet Chevara made claims about the WHO by doing original research on primary sources and an argument from silence. Wikipedia content is based on reliable secondary sources, and in the case of articles like this, review articles. Please make more accurate Talk: page statements. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I was obviously commenting on this: Please review WP:NOR. Jayjg (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC). which you made a few lines up. In wikipedia we read many sources complied by WP:RELIABLE, and often use the guidline WP:MEDRS for medical research. We ALL agree to that. But to determine WP:WEIGHT we look at many sources and find the trend to determine what is the majority view and what is WP:UNDUE. That is what was done here and it is not a violation of WP:NOR. Gsonnenf (talk) 05:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Making the HIV sentence clearer

For readers who are briefly skimming the lead (as readers often do) they might not notice the fact that the strong evidence for HIV reduction only applies to high-risk areas. This is an important point we need to ensure we clearly distinguish for our readers. As the paragraph currently states: "Strong evidence indicates that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66% in populations that are at high risk,[12] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa." An important detail is currently buried in the middle of a 34 word-salad of a sentence.

I suggest we make this sentence clearer. Perhaps we can edit it to something along the lines of: "Strong evidence suggests that for high-risk areas, circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66%,[12] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa." Therewillbefact (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm glad you've drawn my attention to this, because the "in populations that are at high risk" part appears to be original research. The cited source doesn't include that qualification. It says: "There is strong evidence that medical male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men by between 38% and 66% over 24 months." Jakew (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm also glad that you've drawn attention to this as well, as now it allows for us to integrate the conflicting evidence that exists when we make the broad far-reaching claim that circumcision universally decreases HIV rates. I noticed that you've already gone ahead and changed the sentence without input from other editors (again) here. Citing this article alone places undue weight on a view held by the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group in 2009. Why were you reluctant to integrate a view expressed by The Royal Dutch Medical Association (in this discussion: Talk:Circumcision#RfC:_how_should_the_lead_summarise_positions_of_medical_associations.3F), but eager to cite an opinion coming from the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco? Additionally, you'll have to substantiate why you have chosen to ignore the conflicting evidence that shows there no clear evidence of HIV reduction among those circumcised in other areas, and the views expressed by medical associations across the globe that agree with this line of reasoning. Houston, we have a NPOV problem.

Consider this text, which states "the inclusion of circumcision in the health policy of developed countries will require further investigation". Or this text, which argues that using the sub-saharan trials "exaggerate the relevance of the African random-controlled trials findings to [Australia's HIV epidemic]". The text additionally states" "That the relationship between circumcision and transmission of HIV is at the very least unclear is illustrated by the fact that the US combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with a high percentage of routine circumcisions. The Dutch situation is precisely the reverse: a low prevalence of HIV/AIDS combined with a relatively low number of circumcisions. As such, behavioural factors appear to play a far more important role than whether or not one has a foreskin." This source also states that there is a "lack of unanimous consent on the real usefulness of protective circumcision, even if several studies have recently demonstrated the protecting role of male circumcision against HIV infection." There is zero content in the lead discussing this, although almost a quarter of it is dedicated to HIV.

Let's take a look at the first sentence of the lead in Circumcision and HIV for further context: "Over forty epidemiological studies have been conducted to investigate the relationship between male circumcision and HIV infection.[1] Reviews of these studies have reached differing conclusions about whether circumcision could be used as a prevention method against HIV.[2][3][4][5]" Sorry Jakew, but your edit does not seem like a sustainable one, with its current ambiguity. There is a lot to address in terms of reconciling this edit with the amount of conflicting evidence arguing the contrary. We will need to draw attention to the conflicting evidence that runs contrary to this edit if we are to keep it in its current form. Thank you again for drawing attention to this. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You seem mostly to be raising points that have already been discussed, so rather than wasting further time on them I direct you to those discussions (one, in which you participated heavily, is here). The newer sources you seem to be misinterpreting; for example the sentence you quote from PMID 20844437 does not consider whether circumcision reduces the risk in developed countries but whether circumcision should be promoted there for that reason. There is scientific consensus that circumcision reduces the risk of female-to-male HIV transmission, but there is no consensus that it should be promoted everywhere. The reason for this is simple: a relative risk reduction of 60% or so translates to a much larger absolute risk reduction in countries with a high lifetime risk of HIV than those where it is low. Consequently the benefits may clearly outweigh the risks in one situation, but in another the relationship may be less clear. Jakew (talk) 10:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The discourse we've had earlier applied to HIV reduction particularly in sub-saharan countries - not universal HIV reduction rates. Applying our previous discussion to this new issue will not hold very much water, as the rhetoric has dramatically changed in the lead. You also stopped responding to me in the link you provided, we did not even finish our discussion...

You additionally did not address my last paragraph citing Circumcision and HIV, please reread the first two sentences of this lead and let's reconcile it with the current narrative of Circumcision, which only mentions the "strong evidence" of circumcision as HIV reducing. I assure you I was not "raising points that have already been discussed" by mentioning this. Please refrain from pigeonholing my input like you have going forward, especially if you aren't even going to address it. Therewillbefact (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the lead of circumcision and HIV needs to be updated. Jakew (talk) 16:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, you are picking and choosing which comments of mine to address. I've drawn attention to the fact that you didn't bother to finish our discussion to the link you provided, and it conveniently fell by the wayside with your next comment. Beyond that, we need to acknowledge that the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco interpreted evidence gathered from three trials in sub-saharan Africa and applied them universally. The problems with doing this should be intuitive. I am having trouble understanding how data gathered from sub-Saharan Africa (with their own sexual behavior and culture) can accurately be applied to the rest of the world. This is a perplexing extrapolation of data, and one we will need to address if we are to summarize this view.

We additionally draw no attention to the ethical concerns that remain with respect to implementing the circumcision campaigns in the paragraph. Please see this text for more. Therewillbefact (talk) 17:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean when you state "...we need to acknowledge that the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco interpreted evidence gathered from three trials in sub-saharan Africa and applied them universally. The problems with doing this should be intuitive. I am having trouble understanding..." etc. Are you expressing some sort of personal issue or concern, or is there some peer-reviewed paper I can read about this? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ethical concerns inhere in almost all medical issues, why should it be singled out here? The ethical concerns on circumcision seem to revolve around rights of children (hence, irrelevant for adult men seeking circumcision) and those that basically frown on anyone having free will to do with their body as they see fit (plenty of those around, too). Neither of which are unique to this topic, and it is anyway addressed since the controversy is already mentioned in the lead. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree there are ethical issues with this as well that are not given proper weight in the lead. Though, it would be off topic for this thread. In the next week or two lets start a thread to discuss how we can give ethical considerations proper weight in the lead as the current lead violates WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I feel strongly that we should return the "in high risk heterosexual males" as we specifically have review articles which state there is insufficient evidence for those at low risk or women or MSM. Internet is to poor right now for me to dig up the refs but I read through them all a while ago. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentence says: "Strong evidence indicates that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66%..." Isn't that sufficient to exclude women or MSM? As noted above, the cited source doesn't limit the scope to only high-risk heterosexual men. Also, there seems to be general consensus that it does reduce the risk of infection in heterosexual men; however, there's active debate over whether it should be promoted in developed countries due to the relatively low prevalence of HIV and hence smaller potential for benefit. As far as I can determine from the abstract, the paper cited in the article re developed countries is discussing the latter issue. I think we need to be careful not to mistake the latter for debate about the former. Jakew (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as I noted earlier the phrase "heterosexual men" by definition excludes "women" and MSM, and there's no point in redundancy in the lede. Also, the sources don't restrict the risk-reduction to "high-risk" men; as you point out, the question here is not whether it reduces the risk for all heterosexual men, but rather whether it's worthwhile promoting circumcision for low-risk heterosexual men. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

medical summary in lead

On 2/9 Jakew removed the medical summary we had in our lead. He has replaced it with " Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." This has been reverted many times and there is currently an ongoing RFC about it but there is clearly no consensus so far to change it. Avi just put it back saying it is the original summary statement and that KNMG statement never had consensus. Avi also tried to say I just coined it on 2/3 and added it to the article then. Truth is it's been there for about 7 months when it replaced our old summary from the AMA. I explained to Avi while reverting him that my addition was a duplicate into the top of the medical summaries section (which has been reverted on the grounds that it was NPOV???) Anywho Jakew just removed the KNMG summary in favor of his own (which NEVER gained consensus) stating "regardless of anything else, we do not need to duplicate sentences". Wow. First please point out the duplicate sentence Jakew and secondly please self revert your medical summary that clearly has no consensus. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is a link to your version of the text, Gary. As you will see, the last two sentences of the third paragraph read: "According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision.[16] Some bodies have discussed under what circumstances circumcision is ethical.[17][18]" The fourth paragraph contains those two sentences as well. This is the duplication to which I referred.

As for the sentence in question, it was added by LizardWizard, in July 2011, interestingly with no apparent consensus at the time. I am quite happy to remove both sentences, or to include both, as compromises while discussion continues. It is unreasonable, however, to ask me to violate NPOV by replacing the neutral summary with the non-neutral one. Jakew (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Unacceptable Jake. The KNMG summary was fine for over half a year then because you decide it's NPOV we must cater to you. I'm tired of your delusions of ownership Jake. The rfc clearly demonstrates there is no consensus for your change. Garycompugeek (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, the RFC clearly shows no consensus for LizardWizard's addition, and your statement I'm tired of your delusions of ownership Jake is highly uncivil. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It is incredible that Avi a WP:Bureaucrat and Jayjg an WP:Administrator are maintaining that the KNMG medical summary never had consensus even though the article history cleary shows the real story. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what your comment has to do with article content. Please review WP:NPA and WP:TPYES. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe what Garycompugeek is saying, is that if you go into the history, there was consensus for the KNMG medical summary. Since whether or not to put the KNMG medical summary is being discussed above, it is germane to article content. If there was consensus, there was consensus. If there was not, there was not. A look in the history should make it unambiguous for everyone. Tftobin (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct Tom. My comment, Jayjg, is addressing the article's lead, and the fact that you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal of KNMG's medical summary and replacing it with his own had consensus. I bring attention to your stations because the wikipedia community holds you to a higher standard than edit warring and ignoring policy. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘These comments appear to be about editors (e.g. "you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal" etc.). Per WP:NPA and WP:TPYES, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." Jayjg ^(talk) 20:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This is about the content. He stated that authors are changing content as if there was consensus when there was not consensus which is vital to this discussion. Please stop misapplying wiki rules.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

"you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal" is a comment about editors, not content. Please make more accurate talk page comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

POV Tag

JakeW has removed this tag despite the prior archived thread showing no consensus to remove it and clear evidence that authors apposed to the tag involved in NPOV allegations. There is obvious POV dispute going on here, as the page has been protected several times over POV edit warring. There are also active RFCs. This tag should not have been removed and needs to be re-added.Gsonnenf (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Tags are not supposed to be Scarlet Letters. Rather, they are meant to alert editors to problems so they can be fixed. This article has plenty of attention now from lots of editors, though no actual apparent problems. Thus there is no policy-based reason to add a tag. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see the following policy on when to remove the tag:

When to remove:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. No discussion about neutrality issues was started on this article's talk page.

2. Discussion about neutrality issues is dormant.

3. There is consensus in the discussion that the problems have been resolved.

It would be fine and a benefit to this article to attract more editors. There is POV dispute that you are involved in. If you did not feel there were problems, you would not be reverting content and participating in RFC.Gsonnenf (talk) 05:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)