Talk:Internment

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on the citing of definitions, i.e., the definition of "concentration camp" in particular

For decency's sake--why not cite the ENTIRE OED definition of "concentration camp"? As opposed to your exceedingly biased--i.e., via selective focus--because truncated quote, of a SEGMENT of the COMPLETE definiton. And, do look up "bias," amd "selective" while you're there...

Look:

The Random House Dictionary defines the term as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", and, the American Heritage Dictionary defines it thus: "A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions." Finally, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as : "a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, political prisoners, or refugees) are detained or confined."

Through any of those THREE definitions, Guantanammo does, in fact, fit.

Nourishment not withheld at Guantananmo? Do you mean when the detaineees are being sodomized by broomhandles by True-Blue American boys and girls?

And, you have the temerity to cite the "mainstream media"--i.e., the CORPORATE media? For example, the General-Electric owned media--i.e., NBC News?

Please.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/concentration+camp

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concentration+camp

Stonewhite 00:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Internment as a legal term

As there is a good article "List of concentration and internment camps". I think that this article should concentrate on the legal aspects of internment. Ie the legislation used to send people to internment camps, and those caught up in that legislation.

I have started this process with two sections on Great Britain and Ireland. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think as soon as you start that process, this article will soon turn into another list just like List of concentration and internment camps. That article isn't a list of camps per se, but a list of internment processes (?) and who was caught up in the legislation. Perhaps that article should have its title changed, but adding the information here is a bad idea. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Prisons

If anyone's interested, I've proposed a new wikiproject for the creation of articles regarding specific prisons here. --Cdogsimmons (talk) 01:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I have redacted "a modern example of which is the Guantanamo Bay detention camp" Guantanamo Bay does not fit the definition of a concentration camp. Reasons: 1. The Oxford dictionary definition requires concentration camp inhabitants to be originally "of a district". Guantanamo Bay does not fit that definition. 2. Mainstream media, and generally accepted usage, does not refer to Guantanamo Bay as a concentration camp. 3. As an expansion on #2 and the Wikipedia description, concentration camp traditionally means that inhabitants are not given proper nourishment or medical care. Neither is the case at Guantanamo Bay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leafgreen (talk • contribs) 01:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Added

More info of post-war use of German camps as transit points for transfered Germans and prisons for Polish resistance against Soviet rule as well as members of ethnic minorities.--Molobo (talk) 16:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Internment vs concentration camp

With both internment camp and concentration camp redirecting here, and with Nazi death camps being near synonymous to concentration camp in popular parlance, I think we need to make the distinction clear, both in the article and in our editorial policies (WP:WTA, etc.).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Where you do feel this distinction is unclear?

The article currently states, "In the 20th century the arbitrary internment of civilians by the state became more common and reached a climax with Nazi concentration camps and the practice of genocide in Nazi extermination camps, and with the Gulag system of forced labor camps of the Soviet Union[7]. As a result of this trend, the term "concentration camp" carries many of the connotations of "extermination camp" and is sometimes used synonymously. A concentration camp, however, is not by definition a death-camp. For example, many of the slave labor camps were used as cheap or free sources of factory labor for the manufacture of war materials and other goods."

- TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Right, the problem is, however, that as long as the "the term "concentration camp" carries many of the connotations of "extermination camp"", should we avoid using the term "concentration cam"p in articles and use "internment camp" instead, unless we are speaking of Nazi/Soviet camps? I've seen several heated debates about specific cases, in which one part wanted to use the term "concentration camp" when both terms were used by sources, obviously pushing certain POV. I think we should prefer the use of internment camp for all non-obvious cases, and add a note to WP:WTA that the term "concentration camp" should be avoided.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I suppose we should use whatever term was used by authorities at the time and/or what is most common when discussing that particular camp. Yes, using the term "concentration camp" can be just POV pushing, but I'm not sure that it always is. And to some degree, either choice is somewhat of a POV issue. ie. Trying to make a "concentration camp" more neutral by using words is also POV to some extent. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 18:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason for restricting the use of the term "concentration camp" to Nazi/Soviet camps. Where the designation is used on the basis of a thorough analysis of the nature of the camp and its operation that desigantion should be accepted. For example the Bassiouni Commission Report - UN Document S/1994/674/Add.2 (Vol. I) of 28 December 1994, "FINAL REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSIONS OF EXPERTS ESTABLISHED PURSUANT TO SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 780 (1992)- ANNEX V THE PRIJEDOR REPORT" is quite unequivocal in its use of teh term in relation to camps in the Omarska-Keraterm-Trnoploje-Manjaca complex established in the early days of the Bosnian war.

Throughout the report you will find references to the concentration camps of Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje.

In PART ONE - VI CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND DEPORTATIONS

"22. As the "informative talks" or interrogations basically took place in the Omarska and Keraterm camps, it can be concluded that more than 6,000 adult males were taken to these concentration camps in the short period they existed (from the end of May to the beginning of August 1992). Since only 1,503 were moved on to Manjaça camp according to Mr. Drljaça, a limited number transferred to the Trnopolje camp, and almost none released, it may be assumed that the death toll was extremely high, even by Serbian accounts. The concentration camp premises were sometimes so packed with people that no more inmates could be crammed in. On at least one occasion, this allegedly resulted in an entire bus-load of newly captured people being arbitrarily executed en masse. Some 37 women were detained in Omarska, whilst no women were kept over time in Keraterm."

And shortly after, at para. 27, under VII THE STRATEGY OF DESTRUCTION, Bassiouni gives an explanation of the purpose of these concentration camps - the reason why the camps were used to "concentrate" key members of the Muslim and Croat communities.

"27. Despite the absence of a real non-Serbian threat, the main objective of the concentration camps, especially Omarska but also Keraterm, seems to have been to eliminate the non-Serbian leadership. Political leaders, officials from the courts and administration, academics and other intellectuals, religious leaders, key business people and artists - the backbone of the Muslim and Croatian communities - were removed, apparently with the intention that the removal be permanent. Similarly, law-enforcement and military personnel were targeted for destruction. These people also constituted a significant element of the non-Serbian group in that its depletion rendered the group at large defenceless against abuses of any kind. Other important traces of Muslim and Croatian culture and religion - mosques and Catholic churches included - were destroyed."

The .pdf version can be downloaded from www.law.depaul.edu/centers_Institutes/ihrli/downloads/V_a.pdf

Boundaries may sometimes be difficult to establish but the downplaying of the identity of concentration camps as a preliminary stage in a progress towards large scale deliberate or neglectful killing by subsuming the separate treatment of "Concentration camp" into an article on internment is unwarranted. There have been strong and arguably motivated efforts elsewhere to confine the use of the term "Concentration camp" to the Nazi camps (for example in the LM controversy over Trnopolje). The applicability or distinct identity of the term should not be restricted unless specific issues have been discussed and resolved.

In principle I agree with Piotrus. But because the term "concentration camp" was used both about british internment camps and nazi death camps, the article should reflect both meanings. The nazis of course used "concentration camp" as a euphamism, just like the bosnian-serb used "interrogation centre" as a euphamism for concentration camp (during the Bosnian war). It is not the aim of WP to affect the way these words are used, but instead to very clear in specifying the various meanings attached to these words. I also agree with Themightyguill that using only the term "concentration camp" can in some cases be POV pushing, particularly if the term is not used by sources or if the reasons for using the term is not specified; using a more neutral term can also be POV pushing if the term is in fact used by the sources. In any case, WP can not make it's own conclusions based on the evidence, this would constitute original research. Best regards, Mondeo (talk) 12:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Internment in Britain in the 1980s

I don't really know much about the editing and stuff so I'm sorry if this is done wrong, but I noticed in this article it talks of internment in Britain in 1939/40 but mentions nothing of the internment the British imposed in Northern Ireland in the 70s and 80s a much more recent example. Surely there should be a section in the article on that?

Please see List of concentration and internment camps. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 19:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So why does Internment in the 1940s merit a place in the article but internment thoughout the 60s 70s and 80s in Ireland not?

Internment in current Palestina

In my opinion, the current situation in Palestina should be referred to as internment. The people are denied free movement, trade and so on, but since some may find this controversial, I want others opinions on this here first Rkarlsba (talk) 09:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Quoting obvious political sensational statements in a supposedly factual article seems to me fundamentally wrong. The Gaza strip is not a camp and so the term internment camp is irrelevant, much less concentration camp with its derived connotations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.68.132.106 (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Gaza Strip

In my opinion, The Gaza Strip section needs revising. It's overtly biased and doesn't fully reflect the opinion of Israel, United States, and several popular Muslims who have spoken against Hamas and the countries that enable it.

Factually speaking, Israel does not control the conditions of the refugee camps. Yes they have imposed sanctions against the territory, but only in response to the increasing rocket attacks and Hamas onsistently violating truces/cease fires/etc (though Israel still wanted to extend the cease-fire).

Syria, Iran, Egypt, and Jordan are the primary contributers to the refugee camps, and continue to enable Hamas through fundamentalist schools and turning a blind eye to the terrorist-breeding inside the camps. Any intervention by Israel is immediately met with violence by the Palestinians. As far as I know, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that offers Palestinian citizenship (10,000 a year since 2001 mostly persecuted Christians) whilst the neighboring Arab states refuse the admittance of ANY Palestinians as they have turned Israel into the ultimate scapegoat. Though technically, Jews have always bared the harshest punishment since the rise of the Ottoman Empire and before.

Obviously my opinion might conflict with the NPOV rules of wikipedia, but the section clearly needs some additions to create a better sense neutrality and not be yet another propaganda/overly biased article. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I retract my statements. I've discovered that the extremely disputed arguments inferring that the Gaza Strip refugee camps are "internment/concentration centers" render its inclusion here unnecessary and false. For starters, it's absurd to compare the Palestinian situation to concentration camps. The concentration camps existed to systematically erase the Jews of Europe (and eventually of the world). The refugee camps exist in Palestinian to contain the population and curb the suicide bombings/rocket attacks/assaults against Israel, and also demonize Israel. Israel has never intended to destroy the Palestinians, and in fact has done everything in its power, even risking its own safety, to create a more healthy environment for these people. After the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization as their government, any hope for their own state is basically gone. And as far as I know, no other article on wikipedia excluding Israeli Apartheid Analogy compares the Palestinian refugee camps to concentration camps. But remember, that article is still in start-class and heavily disputed.

I will delete the Gaza Strip section according to these facts. Feel free to discuss your opinion here, though please be cordial and polite. Wikifan12345 (talk) 19:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

ridiculous british bias

Wiki has massive POV problems. Looks like a British nationalist wrote it or something. The Boer concentration camps were "ostensibly" to help them? Hillarious, since those families were denied food if their male head of household was believed to be still fighting. Whole thing needs rewritten to be inclusive of other issues that could fit under the definition of being a camp.

I think the term ostensible (meaning "professedly" or "pretended") suggests there was likely another motivation, doesn't it? I'm not saying you are wrong, but motivations are hard things to prove. I'm not terribly familiar with the topic.

More importantly, I don't understand you last sentence. What other issues do you feel need to be included? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

If you knew your history you'd understand that the British used them to contain the families of the Boer Rebels who were supplying the enemy (which makes sense). The camps were fine until disease broke out and the British had no means of treating such a mass of people. As a result people bacame undernourished and with outbreaks of cholera and dysentry they had no chance. As for them being denied food specifically as a punishment, I'd like to see you prove that. They were ALL put in there because their "home owners" were fighting the British. Clearly you are yet another colonial with anti-British POV. I guess it's a shame the Boers weren't black in this instance. What a field-day you'd have with that!

concentration policy

I came to the article trying to find out about the origin and history of population concentration policies. My impression is that population concentration policies are generally directed at dispersed members of a community who are felt to be different from dominant members in some way (mostly ethnic) and as such pose a 'problem' that can only be addressed when those people are concentrated in a specific location. 'Addressing the problem' may run the gamut from aid and education/conversion to extermination. From this perspective, concentration camp just refers to a particular type of location suitable for carrying out the concentration policy. But not all concentration locations need to be camps (they may be reserves or regions) and not all concentration policies involve internment. My feeling is that the way the article is now set up, the larger issue of population concentration policy is not covered. I just raise the issue here, as I am not an expert on population concentration policy, and would probably not do well if I tried to write the article. However, I know that concentration was an explicit policy in the 19th century directed at native americans, and this concentration policy antedates most of the references I have seen on the subject in various Wikipedias. Zwart (talk) 12:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

British and US camps

Perhaps, in the interest of neutrality, it would be best to have a small section about British and US concentration camps, instead of one solely focusing on Nazi and Soviet camps. This bias is clear in our countries' history textbooks but it doesn't need to be here on Wikipedia. If no one objects, I will add an appropriate section. Kernow (talk) 06:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

GULAG

I removed the mention of GULAG because, as a rule, people were sent there according to trial decision (or equal procedure), as a rule, based on some Penal Code article (frequently # 58). The decision about each person was made separately. Therefore, GULAG is beyond the scope of this article, which deals with "the imprisonment or confinement of people, commonly in large groups, without trial." However, I think deportation of some nations, (e.g. of Volga Germans) under Stalin had the same traits as deportation of Japanese Americans did, so I propose to include that material into the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)