Talk:Cordwainer Smith

religion

I have restored the previous version of the Science fiction writing section and placed the new content here. Many strange and unsupported claims were made by anonymous user 161.65.16.253, for example that Linebarger based the Instrumentality on the Episcopalian faith, a faith he converted to when he remarried in 1950 (his second wife was Catholic, and was unable to marry a divorced man and remain a Catholic, so they both converted, him from Protestantism of some stripe, her from the Catholic faith.)Ken 15:06, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

^{I now strike thru (as part of my restoration of the original context) the immediately preceding retrospective sig, by an editor who did not contribute the material it applied to. (It was added, 13:52, 26 July 2005, by the 3rd talk editor, obviously to ameliorate confusion created by the 2nd talk editor's insertion of their own comment (which i also have relocated), within the text contributed by the 1st talk editor). --Jerzy•t 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)}

I would like to see some references for these assertions before they are re-inserted into the main article.
-- Ken 15:06, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that by "placed the new content here" Ken meant that he removed the IP's version to this talk page -- in contrast to the frequent use of "here" to mean "in the accompanying article". He placed it elsewhere on this talk page, and included article-page section heading, so (intended or not) it became a separate section (a section immediately following this one). I have modified what Ken moved from article to talk, by

placing a box around it to identify it as formalformer article content, not discussion per se,
relocating it within in this talk page, to lie within this contribution of my own, between the end of this sentence and my sig, and
(at the cost of not displaying the heading in its original form, but for the sake of the overall clarity of this talk page) also disabling display of the heading markup

so that it is entirely within both this section and the range of this signed contrib.

== Science fiction writing ==  

Linebarger's stories are strange even by the standards of science fiction, sometimes written in narrative styles closer to traditional Chinese stories than to most English-language fiction. His science fiction is relatively small in volume, due to his time-consuming profession (he worked in the intelligence community, and as a college professor), and his early death. Rather than a full fledged cycle like Dune, Smith's writings consist of only one novel, originally published in two volumes in edited form as The Planet Buyer, a.k.a. The Boy Who Bought Old Earth, (1964) and The Underpeople (1968), later restored to its original form as Norstrilia (1975); and around 30 short stories (gathered in The Rediscovery of Man and other collections), together suggesting a rich universe, but leaving much to be guessed by the reader. The cultural links to China were partially expressed in the Felix C. Forrest pseudonym, as the ideograms for "Linebarger" in Chinese roughly translate as "Forest of Incandescent Bliss".

As an expert in psychological warfare, Linebarger was very interested in the then-newly developing fields of psychology and psychiatry and inserted many of their ideas into his fiction. Also, his fiction often has religious overtones or motifs, in particular in characters who have no control of their actions. This has led to suggestions that Linebarger was personally religious, which are refuted by Linebarger's daughter. Regardless, Linebarger's works are sometimes included in analyses of Christianity in fiction, along with the works of authors such as C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien.

The bulk of his stories are set some 14,000 years in the future, starting on Earth. The Instrumentality of Mankind rules the planet and any planet later inhabited by humanity. The Instrumentality is derived as a concept from the Episcopalian faith, where they are elders who cannot be questioned, while holding themselves accountable. The Instrumentality describes itself as The Oldest Servat of Mankind, and concerns itslef with ruthelessly enforcing happiness. The brutal lessons of past wars (the era of the Manshonyagger, as described obliquely in War No. 81-Q, a mispronunciation of Menschenjaeger, the german form man hunter, today best described as being like James Cameron's Terminator robots in the films of the same name), and the ruin of the old civilisation have forced them to prevent the possiblity of war by nipping it in the bud - no money, free food, perfect health, a set lifespan of 400 years; However, news, gossip and free thought ar expressly forbidden, happiness is assured, and by the era of D'Joan (The Dead Lady of Clown Town), full humans were already genetically programmed, and were prcatically slaves of the same form as the Underpeople that they despised universally. Christianity is forbidden for the same reason : the prevention of war. the Trinity are described in secret as The First Forbidden One, The Second Forbidden One and the Third Forbidden One, and ironically the last faihful are the Underpeople themselves. Revelation of God ha come back to meta-humankind in the most unusual manner - the revelation of a Rat, Robot and revived ancient Coptic Christian.

The Instrumnetality has a rival, the Bright Empire, who despite their name, are practically a mirror image of themselves - Linebarger's comment on the Cold War, explored in A Planet named Shayol, and Golden the Ship Was, Oh, Oh, Oh

Colonisation, in echo of James Blish's pantropy stories, has modified humans against their will to different planetary environments. True humans are only so if born on Old Earth. All others are hominids, even those who are born on Old Earth (the Lord Jestocost, 72nd descendant of the Lady Goroke, is described as a hominid in the Ballad of C'Mell, thanks to his 72nd grandmother having come from III Delta Pavonis, rather than Old Earth)

The Instrumentality attempts to revive old cultures and languages in a process known as the Rediscovery of Man. The Lady Alice More, together with the Lord Jestocost is responsible for this movement. Further, the Lady Alice More was made a Lord of the Instrumentality after witnessing an act of extreme barbarism brought about by the hoplessness of the enforced utopia, and here strong will was not unnaturally harnessed to prevent further incidents of this nature (as told in Under Old Earth, were the concept of the fun-death has entered the society, a comment on hippy culture when without any form of expression, could have become self-destructive)

This rediscovery can be seen either as the initial period when humankind emerges from a mundane utopia and the nonhuman underpeople gain freedom from slavery, or as a continuing process begun by the Instrumentality, encompassing the whole cycle, where mankind is constantly at risk of falling back to its bad, old ways.

Linebarger's stories feature strange and vivid creations, such as:

• Planet Norstrilia, a semi-arid planet where an immortality drug is harvested from gigantic (over one hundred tons) virus-infected sheep (see the worms of Arrakis and melange for similar concepts).
• The punishment world of Shayol (cf. Sheol), where criminals are punished by the regrowth and harvesting of their organs for transplanting.
• Technologies associated with spacetravel that are all highly unpleasant, before the age of planoforming : adiabatic pods to be towed behind solar sail-ships; Scunning, where human beings are disassembled, put into suspended animation by pickling and re-assembled at their destination.
• Planoforming spacecraft crewed by humans telepathically linked with cats which defend against the attacks of unknown malevolent entities in space with the flash of small atomic weapons (these entities are perceived by humans as dragons, and by cats as gigantic rats).
• The Underpeople, animals modified during gestation into human form to fulfill servile roles, and treated as property. Several stories feature clandestine efforts to liberate the underpeople and grant them equal rights to humans. They are seen everywhere throughout regions controlled by the Instrumentality.
• Habermen and their supervisors, Scanners, whose spinal cords have been cut to block the "pain of space", and who perceive only by vision and various life-support implants. Other modes of perception can be temporarily restored to scanners by "cranching".

^{--Jerzy•t 06:27 & 07:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)}

The above box includes a broken-formatted 'graph, which without its initial blank would read conveniently as

The Instrumentality attempts to revive old cultures and languages in a process known as the Rediscovery of Man. The Lady Alice More, together with the Lord Jestocost is responsible for this movement. Further, the Lady Alice More was made a Lord of the Instrumentality after witnessing an act of extreme barbarism brought about by the hoplessness of the enforced utopia, and here strong will was not unnaturally harnessed to prevent further incidents of this nature (as told in Under Old Earth, were the concept of the fun-death has entered the society, a comment on hippy culture when without any form of expression, could have become self-destructive)

--Jerzy•t 07:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Part of it was a loose and sloppy paraphrase of the introduction to the old Ballantine paperback "The Best of Cordwainer Smith", by J.J. Pierce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonMoos (talk • contribs) 08:38, 22 August 2005

I agree^* that it makes sense, but Ken is right in asking for references, especially as it has been challenged. The Ballantine paperback mentioned in the unattributed comment below^† would be appropriate. - BanyanTree 22:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

* Who BanyanTree "agree[s]" with, based on careful review of the confusing talk edits, would be the contributor (described by Ken as a specific IP) of the removed article passage (exhibited in the box above.)
--Jerzy•t 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

† BanyanTree would have had occasion to say "just above", rather than "below", but for the misplacement of a previous comment, which (as a result of my best effort at minimizing the confusion) is no longer below theirs. Banyan means the formerly unattrib comment, now attributed to AnonMoos, which now immediately precedes Banyan's comment (and may long continue -- never say "forever" -- to do so).
--Jerzy•t 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It is valid, I think, to see him as a Christian author. I went to Cordwainersmith.com, the site ran by his daughter, and I don't think she ever disputed that he was Christian or that it influenced his writing. What she disputed, as I recall, was the idea that he was religious when he was younger or even when he wrote Scanners live in Vain. When he did Scanners live in Vain, 1949, he had not married Genevieve so was not even Episcopalian yet. He also did stories from a variety of faith perspectives, including Buddhism, thoughout the 1950s.(The Fife of Boddhidharma being done in 1959) There's also reason to doubt he was loyal to anyone denomination as he seemed to have considered Quakerism, Copticism, and somewhat irreverently asked for Marian intercession in Mexico as it was "her land." Still I think it's fair to say that by the 1960s he was a fairly committed Christian even if he wasn't specific, or humorless, on what kind of Christianity. What I read of the Far Eastern government books I think he was fairly Christian by 1956 as it indicates some fondness for the fact the Taiping in least tried to be Christians. Although that could've been his co-authors doing, in his last years his series gets pretty specifically Christian with On the Storm Planet(written a year before his death) talking about Christianity as the best hope for that future.--T. Anthony 21:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

(Re post-removal comments on, and changes to, the removed text)

The following two from 2006 comments were inserted inside the text that is now inside the box in this subsection's parent section, between its first two 'graphs, apparently as comments on the content of that 'graph.^{--Jerzy•t 06:27 & 07:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)}

You seem to have forgotten about Atomsk in your list of novels. --maru (talk) Contribs 22:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

In the same edit, Marudubshinki also became the first of three editors to change the removed content; details in my succeeding contrib to this section, with identical timestamp.
--Jerzy•t 06:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the lead, but is not described as science fiction. - BanyanTree 22:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Several colleagues made minor changes to the content of what Kenwarren had purported as duplicating the text he had removed from the article. (I have reverted that text to its form when he saved it at 15:06, July 20, 2005 (UTC)). Those changes were:

1. As noted above, at 22:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC), Marudubshinki, respelling "Instrumnetality"
2. In an unsigned contrib at 01:28, 22 November 2005, 161.65.16.253 (talk · contribs · info · WHOIS) removing a leading blank which had broken the formatting of one 'graph (It rendered the 'graph as a single line much wider than plausible windows; see my note immediately below the box for the reasonably formatted version.) and respelling "Servat" (within the phrase "The Oldest Servat of Mankind") in the next graph.
3. At 15:51, 10 February 2009, タチコマ robot replacing a bare wiki-link for "melange" with the Dab'd & piped link Melange

--Jerzy•t 06:27 & 07:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Name of article

I have reverted User:BanyanTree's move on July 17 of this article from Cordwainer Smith to Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger. Wikipedia policy is to use common names, and there is no doubt that Cordwainer Smith is far more common than Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger, by an entire order of magnitude, as the following Google hits attest:

• "Cordwainer Smith" - 34,500
• "Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger" - 1190
• "Paul Linebarger" - 673

A comparable case is Mark Twain; the article is at Mark Twain, not Samuel Clemens. Most pages linking here are also going to link to Cordwainer Smith, not Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger.

—Lowellian (talk) 03:48, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I concur. For another example, see James Tiptree, Jr; another science fiction author who published under a pen name and whose true identity was hidden for the majority of her career. grendel|khan 13:58, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

This is more of a comment, but Linebarger is quite clearly notable outside of science fiction while, looking at her article, it doesn't appear that Tiptree is. Similarly, Twain was the persona by which the world knew Clemens, while Linebarger was prominent in addition to, and not because, of Smith. It may just be me, but I find Linebarger the person to be much more interesting that Smith the writer, or at least what little I remember of his short stories is much more interesting when you look at the person. That said, I am not particularly fussed either way. BTW, a list of fiction would be useful if anyone is feeling motivated... Cheers, BanyanTree 16:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Whether Linebarger is more "interesting" as Linebarger or Smith is subjective, and furthermore, irrelevant to titling the page. Linebarger was notable as Linebarger, but he was more notable and well-known as Smith. Under Wikipedia's naming conventions, that's what matters as far as the Wikipedia title is concerned. —Lowellian (talk) 05:08, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

His case is unusual though because there are people who are more interested in Linebarger then in Cordwainer. My University has, I think, three books on Linebarger but I'm not sure they have any by Cordwainer. Kind of an odd case. I'm tempted to suggest a segment for his work as Linebarger or maybe an expansion from the section that just lists his non-fiction works.--T. Anthony 23:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Orson Scott Card reference

I've removed the following here for discussion. I honestly don't see the relevance to Cordwainer Smith. Scott has never claimed Smith's Shayol as an influence in A Planet Called Treason, and without that I don't see that it's a relevant link.

• The punishment world of Shayol (cf. Sheol), where criminals are punished by the regrowth and harvesting of their organs for transplanting (see also A Planet Called Treason by Orson Scott Card).

Ken ^{talk|contribs} 03:42, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Related to this, I removed a link referencing Robert Jordan's Shayol Ghul as well. Unless such references can be attributed to Cordwainer, rather than Sheol, they should not go here. - BanyanTree 02:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The Kirk Allen story

I added a brief paragraph about recent articles suggesting that Linebarger was a prototype for psychologist Robert Lindner's famous fantasy-prone personality. I think it would be a mistake to turn this into a major focus of the article on Linebarger since it's all still pretty speculative. It would only serve to distract from the very real achievements of Linebarger as a writer, scholar and patriot. Further comment on Kirk Allen properly belongs in an article on Lindner, who has not yet, alas, been wikified.--dking, 05 April 2006

I think you have put this topic in exactly the right proportion, dking.

On the one hand, the idea that Linebarger was "Kirk Allen" (or a large part of a composite "Allen") is extremely plausible, seems to explain much that is so interesting about Linebarger's science fiction, and therefore has been of great interest to the author's fans for at least forty years. The theory unquestionably deserves mention in this article.

But on the other hand, pending confirmation from the estates of Linebarger or Lindner (not likely to come from either), the story remains mere speculation. Even if we had confirmation, Lindner's account is clearly fictionalized to a large degree. Without knowing what parts have been changed to protect Linebarger's identity (or for other reasons), it would be irresponsible and sensationalistic to go into a big summary of the early sex life and subsequent mental problems of "Kirk Allen" here.

But I do have some reservations about your lead-in: "Lee Weinstein and Alan Elms have proposed that Linebarger was a prototype for 'Kirk Allen'". Firstly, without real links or at least occupational epithets, Weinstein and Elms are just names without authority, not much better than "Some have proposed." Secondly, the phrase (and the footnote dating Weinstein's paper to 2001) is likelly to mislead many readers into thinking Weinstein and Elms originated the theory, and recently, when in fact the rumor has been current among science fiction fans since at least the 1960s. I will shortly do a minor edit to deal with these small problems.

LATER: Done and done. 66.241.73.241 10:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Cause of Death

The article mentions several times that he died young, but not once mentions the cause of death. What did he die of? ~IMP - 5/12/06

Links to Story/Novel Pages

I noticed that the numerous Wikipedia pages on Smith's individual stories aren't linked to this one. This urgently needs to be done so that they aren't free-floating. --Varenius 03:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Now done. I took the story list from The Rediscovery of Man page, stripping off a few unlinked and lesser-known stories to reduce length. Now we just need to work on those story pages! --Varenius 03:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice work. - BT 13:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese characters

An anon who made otherwise good edits took out the Chinese characters 林白楽 for Smith's name. These are taken from the Japanese wiki version, who I imagine would have a better idea. The characters given are, roughly, wood-white-joy, which seem to fit. I have readded the characters. - BT 14:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible coining of the computer term "Instant Message"

On page 95 in chapter eight of the 1975 Pyramid Books paperback edition of "The Planet Buyer" originally published in 1964, appears:

"How much money have I got?" said Rod

Angry John Fisher cut in: "So much that the computers are clotted up, just counting it. About one and a half stroon years. Perhaps three hundred years of Old Earth total income. You sent more Instant Messages last night than the Commonwealth government itself has sent in the last twelve years. These messages are expensive. One kilocredit FOE money."

Is this a possible first appearance of the term "instant message"? K8 fan 06:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. On the other hand, one can find earlier similar phrases like "There is no time for the modern motorist to read even the briefest of words, hence the age of the instant message." in The Private Library. --Gwern (contribs) 00:34 16 July 2007 (GMT)

In Norstrilia, an "instant message" is an interplanetary hyperspace communication which is fabulously expensive (and which few private individuals other than the inhabitants of Norstrilia could ever hope to afford to send). Not much in common with the current computing concept... AnonMoos 03:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Anthony Lewis (Upcoming events, back page Analog) used ARRBlvd as a fanzine title for many years. The Instant Message, IIRC, was one of his ways of both referencing/Honoring CS, and may have spread the use farther through-out fandom. Sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.135.36 (talk) 02:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

NESFA "publishes a regular newsletter called Instant Message. It has been coming out at least since 1971.

File 770: news of science fiction fandom: Posts tagged NESFA provides at least two reference points for date and number of issues of Instant Message:

• Instant Message #819 on or about June 12th, 2009
• Instant Message #796 on or about February 20th, 2008

The difference between issue numbers is 819-796 = 23. The difference between dates is 478 days, = 68 weeks (rounded down). 68/23 = 2.95652174. So is Instant Message published every three weeks, on the average? If so, then 796 issues ~~ 45 years 9 months, and Feb. 20, 2008 - 45yr 9mo ~~ May 20, 1962. These admittedly very rough and guessworky calculations place the origin of the fanzine within two years (prior, it is true) of the publication of "The Boy Who Bought Old Earth" (the story that became The Planet Buyer) in Galaxy, April 1964. A little leeway in the numbering or timing -- yet to be established -- could document a close and plausible coincidence in time. --Thnidu (talk) 05:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

References

CS inventions

He also invented bird and mouse brained robots, and cats (lost c'mel, dead lady of clown town, etc) used as attack partners or part of an attack system (game of cat and dragon) Sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.135.36 (talk) 02:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Neologisms and manshonyaggers

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the sixth bullet under "Science fiction writing":

Early works in the timeline include neologisms such as manshonyagger which are not explained to any great extent, but serve to produce an atmosphere of strangeness. These words are usually derived from corruptions non-English words. For instance, manshonyagger resembles the German words "menschen" meaning, in some senses, "men" or "mankind", and "jaeger", meaning a hunter. Manshonyaggers roam the wild lands between the walled cities, suggesting that they are creatures or machines designed to hunt humans.

The difficulty is that "manshonyagger" is not the best example of an unexplained neologism: the story "Mark Elf" explains the manshonyaggers pretty thoroughly, discussing the name's etymology, describing what they look like, making it clear that they're machines rather than creatures and even getting into their specific programmed purpose. "Mark Elf" is from 1957, according to this; I can think of one other story, "The Queen of the Afternoon," that mentions manshonyaggers in slightly less detail--but that's a later story. So hmmm. Even if there's a pre-1957 story that uses the word (and I can't think of one), and even if that story is vague as to description and etymology as suggested in the bullet . . . well, even then a bit of revision's probably called for. Or am I not getting something? Iralith (talk) 23:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, OK, I see. They're mentioned in "Scanners Live in Vain" (as "Manshonjaggers") much more vaguely--that's an earlier-published story than "Mark Elf," so it is indeed the case that our first encounter with them is strange, unexplained, etc. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a clearer way to put things in that bullet. For one thing, "in the timeline" isn't quite right--"Scanners Live in Vain" is an older story, but "Mark Elf" is earlier "in the timeline" of the shared Instrumentality universe. Iralith (talk) 00:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In "Mark Elf" they're called both manshonyagger and Menschenjäger, which is the German spelling (meaning "people-hunter(s)", "hunter(s) of humans", sometimes with the English plural ending -s (the German word is the same in singular and plural. The wise Middle-Size Bear, an underman in the later terminology, makes the connection explicit:

Said the bear in perfect German, "... You have stopped a Menschenjäger very mysteriously. For the first time in my own life I can see into a German mind and see that the word manshonyagger should really be Menschenjäger, a hunter of men."

In "The Queen of the Afternoon", which comes next in story sequence , they are "manshonyaggers". Anonymous revision #414689021 changed manshonjagger to manshonyagger, but the "y" spelling seems to be more commonly used. I'm undoing that edit, with a link to this talk section. --Thnidu (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

References

External Links

The Cordwainer smith blogspot page is not an acceptable external link.

• Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided #11 - its a blog &
• Wikipedia:C#Linking_to_copyrighted_works The encyclopedia of science fiction is a copyrighted publication so reprinting it is a copyright violation and we don't link copyvios

If this link is restored we will either block the user or lock the page to prevent its insertion. Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:16, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I also removed a few other questionable ELS. --Tom (talk) 16:51, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

What is Missing in the Life section

There's no mention of how Linebarger got involved with the science-fiction world, how he became a writer, where he published his fiction, etc. Surely something should be added about this. The part called "Science-fiction" is good, but it describes what you may find in his stories and novel, it doesn't provide an outline of his career as a pro writer.--93.40.110.126 (talk) 18:43, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

He was an amateur. During his writing career, he was very secretive. Few details exist. If someone did start adding a bunch of bio stuff, I would be skeptical of it. Modinyr (talk) 00:04, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Notes

Notes present some problems when used on talk pages, and are generally not used there. Since they seem well established here, please try to maintain the practice of keeping them as the last section.^{--Jerzy•t 21:17, 23 & 05:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)}

I've diddled the headings into an unconventional configuration, to aid the continuation of the notes-last practice and make it more visible in the ToC.
--Jerzy•t 21:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that is not going to work: a new section still goes at the end when the New section button is used and people will only realise that once they have created the new section. See #Testing new section button.

I suggest adding {{Reflist|local=true}} to sections with references. Mirokado (talk) 21:59, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I have done that, seems to work fine. The refs would move with the section if archiving were enabled, too. We still have to hope that respondents would leave the ; References bit at the end of the section, but at least they will now see it. --Mirokado (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

   Excellent, thanks! I never imagined my kloodge would "work" mechanically, in the sense that new sections would go above the notes section, but only that users would have their attention drawn to the variation from the typical (ref-less) talk page's ToC, and be less likely to just let new sections be added at the bottom. (I've long assumed that our footnote facilities reflected limitations on what could be done via reasonable tweaks to Mediawiki -- e.g., refs for different pages of the same work have to have the full info on the work repeated in coding each footnote. So i haven't gone looking for such a sensible solution via Wiki-markup/-template parameters.)
   Now, about that prohibition on mentioning the full info on a work only at the first place where the given article uses it, then just using an abbr'd title on separate refs to different pages in the same work; what keeps us from avoiding that in a sensible way? (In fact, why don't we have a Refwork namespace, so a ref can link to the page or section for the edition in question, and let the server convert subsequent refs to the same work into ibids and op cits? Oh, never mind me....)
   Thanks again.
--Jerzy•t 05:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome! There are various ways to create short references. I like using {{sfn}} to generate the short inline refs and {{cite book}} and friends with the |ref=harv parameter to generate the citations. --Mirokado (talk) 08:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Testing new section button

Just want to see where this ends up... --Mirokado (talk) 21:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

It ended up at the end of the page even with level one headings. --Mirokado (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

   Where level one is the top of the hierarchy, and there is no level zero? I.e., level two is the default (implied by the + tab setting up for a "== Your title here ==" no matter what has gone before), right?
   Indeed; the only surprising effect of playing with section-heading levels that i know of is when at least one section has only deeper levels preceding it; i think that the headings look as expected, but the ToC entries preceding the (surprisingly) parentless section are shown as highest-level-used despite the later discovery that later levels don't stay as deep.
--Jerzy•t 06:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Word meanings

Do we really need the definitions of cordwainer and smith, especially in the intro? Did Linebarger ever state there was some significance in his choice of pen name? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)