Talk:Cybele

Section

Eequor: I appreciate your efforts to make Wikipedia more sensitive to the transgendered community, and I certainly appreciate your corrections where they have forced myself and others to step back and re-evaluate what we write. In a few cases, however, I think you go past the point of sensitivity and start to impose your own agenda on ancient sources. Labelling Attis "she" is a case in point. Ancient writers are quite clear about his primarily male identity. For example "A woodland Phrygian boy, the gorgeous Attis, conquered the towered goddess with pure love. She wanted to keep him as her shrine’s guardian, and said, ‘Desire to be a boy always.’" (Ovid Fasti 4.222). Also: "When he had grown up, Attis was sent by his relatives to Pessinos, that he might wed the king's daughter." (Pausanias 7.19.9-12). See http://www.theoi.com/Okeanos/Attis.html for further references. Bacchiad 03:07, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

I have added a good deal of new material drawn from Burkert, Greek Religion. I have cut very little, but I've set some material, like a Greek etymology for Cybele, in new context. I have left "nature" among the realms over which Cybele held sway: "nature" is not a useful concept as a generic absolute in this way. Quotes from literature that specify her attributes would be a good addition. --Wetman 06:44, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

6th century

the link to 6th and 4th century is obviously wrong.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.205.5.2 (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2006

Aideeee!

As a Greek, a eunuch and a denier of Christianity, what i have to say about this article is this: hogwash.

So Kyveli is the goddess of transgendered persons now, eh, if the externa links are to be taken seriously? But what about the animals? Why not nominate her Goddess of Furries too? I see no point in wasting such a great opportunity at raping the past to ascert our connection to it.

Well done to all contributors here, well done. I applaud you. You are truly, honestly, ridiculus beyond compare to clowns and pink elephants. Bravo!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.102.230 (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2007

Anatolian Goddess -> Turkish

Hello, Kibele or Cybele was an Anatolian goddess, as currently most of the descendants of the ancient anatolians live in Turkey and speak turkish, the turkish version of the name should be represented as well..I have made these editions..Regards,Alasian

The name comes into English from the Greek, not the Turkish, and there are no Turkish myths about her. For that matter, if the Turkish name you say is common relates to Cybele and is not of native Turkish etymology, it certainly entered that language through Greek as well and not, say, Phrygian. Including Turkish here therefore isn't terribly informative and is no more relevant than including, say, the Italian. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Links

Sorry, I'm removing the two links to the "modern gallae" webpages, because they are completely irrelevant and full of misleaqding inaccuracies. They would be more relevant to an article about the "revival of the cult of Cybele", if anyone wanted to write such an article. Stassa (talk) 21:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph

Something strikes me as strange the way that the end of the first paragraph is worded. It references another Wikipedia entry, and makes a point of indicating that it is a direct quote. A direct quote from another entry? I feel this paragraph could stand to be reworded, but I'm not sure exactly how to do it. Anybody want to take a stab? --Dallasallad (talk) 04:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the odd reference, but maintained the actual sentence. If you think it's spurious, add a cn tag. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Turkish Name of Kybele

The Turkish name of Kybele is Sibel and is a very widely used name in Turkey even after thousands of years.

As most of the direct descendants of ancient anatolians today speak Turkish, the turkish version of the name of the goddess should also be provided.--Lycianhittite (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It is very important to provide the Turkish name of this goddess because:

-The goddess was originally Hittite and later Phrygian, for this reason the Hittite and Phyrigian versions of the name, that lead to the Greek version of the name should be provided in the article.

-Todays Anatolians are the indigenous population of the region according to scientific studies, and at this moment, have a widely used turkish language name for Kybele, which is Sibel. This should also be provided as a)It shows what today's anatolians call their ancient goddess b)It showst the cultural continuity in Anatolia

The Greek version of Kubaba is of no more importance than the Turkish one, as they were both different versions of the original ancient anatolian one, given as the Anatolians first shifted to speaking Greek from Anatolian languages, and later on shifted to Turkish. Lycianhittite (talk) 01:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

...and the French name for Cybele is Cybèle.--Wetman (talk) 06:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

... and the French have nothing to do with Anatolia and the french are not Anatolians, they are just foreigners using the name of an Anatolian goddess. How many of them are proven to be indigenous anatolians. %85-90 of Anatolians of today are indigenous, using the name of THEIR goddess after thousands of years.The current language of indigenous anatolians is turkish and they call their goddess with a name more suitable for their current language. This name should be added to show how the culture of Anatolians is continuing even after thousands of years where Sibel(Kibele) being one of the most prominent female names. A google image search with Sibel will reveal more than 350,000 results.

Also, as important as providing what the Anatolians today call their goddess(Turkish:Sibel) is equally important to provide information about what ancient anatolians were calling Cybele(Centuries before ancient greeks stepped over anatolian soil !). Thus the Hittite version and the later Phrygian version should be provided as well as the later Greek and Turkish versions. The language of Anatolians may have changed over time, first from Ancient Hittite to Phrygian or other Anatolian languages. Then into Greek with the Hellenization of Anatolia, then into Turkish with the islamization of Anatolia. Despite all these the culture is continuing as proven by the wide usage of the goddesses name even in Anatolia of today. Lycianhittite (talk) 11:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Turkey or the Turkish did not exist back then. All you have in common is geographical locale, and trying to establish a connection for the name has no basis. What ever Cybele is called in Turkish is just as irrlevant as adding the Chinese or Russian name of Cybele. Ancient Greek and Roman deities remain ancient deities. _{El Greco}^(talk) 15:10, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

All you are doing is typing irrelevant chauvanistic rants that do not contain single piece of information about why the anatolian names of Sibel who is an anatolian goddess should not be provided. If you do not have solid arguments against todays Anatolians not having the right to call an anatolian goddess her name in the current anatolian language, then stop vandalasing this article.How many of the chinese and russians are indigenous anatolians?Stop using this irrelevant argument again and again where you each time cant answer my simple question in return!

A) According to scientific studies more than %85 of Turkey's population is formed of indigenous anatolians

1)..In the present study, the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia was estimated as 13%..

• http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117873906/abstract

2).. One study based on an analysis of Y-chromosomes from Turkey suggested that Central Asians have only made a 10% genetic contribution..

• Rolf B, Röhl A, Forster P, Brinkmann B. "Genomic diversity: applications in human population genetics". 75–82 Kluwer Academic/Plenum

3)..Recent genetic research has suggested the local, Anatolian origins of the Turks and that genetic flow between Turks and Asiatic peoples might have been marginal..

• http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Rosser2000.pdf
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people

B) The greek Cybele is just a derivation of the Ancient Anatolian Hittite name Kubaba for the Anatolian goddess.When Hittites were calling Sibel with the name Kubaba The Greek Language did not even exist! let alone have a version for Sibel.

Also, If you take some time to read, even in the article, Sibel is under Anatolian deities part. Greek version of the name of Sibel is just an intermediary version, which the anatolians were using as their language shifted from Ancient Anatolian languages(Hittite,Phrygian,etc.) to Ancient Greek. So the Ancient Greek name of Kubaba is of secondary importance as it was just an intermediary name between what ancient anatolians were calling THEIR goddess in their initial ancient Anatolian languages(Hittite:Kubaba) and what they are calling in their current language(Turkish:Sibel)

C) Modern day anatolians are speaking Turkish but still valuing their goddesses name by using it as the name for hundreds of thousands of women around anatolia. This name is Sibel and should be provided in the article to show how this goddess is currently named by the descendants of the people who originated her myth.

Conclusion - An informative and unbiased article should contain: A)Primary Importance 1)Original name of the goddess, as the ancient anatolians were calling. So the name in Hittite and Phrygian languages. 2)Current name of the goddess, as used by the anatolians in their current language.

B)Secondary Importance 1)Intermediary versions of Kubaba, between the initial Kubaba and the current Sibel. An example to these intermediary languages is ancient greek version Cybele. Cybele is of far less importance than say Sibel as Sibel is what the anatolians are currently calling their goddess, while Cybele is what they were calling during the period between ancient anatolian languages and their current language Turkish. Also, Cybele is of far less importance than Kubaba(Hittite) because, back then, the Greek Language did not even exist!! as the Hittite language is around 1000 years older than Greek.

You have failed to provide any evidence for today's Anatolians not having anything in common with their ancestors. I will be changing back the language section if you do not come up with solid arguments against the above facts.

Lycianhittite (talk) 02:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the dictionary of Georgios Babiniotis (Γεώργιος Μπαμπινιώτης), professor of glossology at the University of Athens,Cybele is "the godess of fertility, the mother of gods and humans, whose worship was widely spread throughout Asia Minor and then spread to Greece and Italy. It derives from the ancient Greek name Κυβήβη, which is probably a loan from the Orient, possibly the Hittite Kubaba. So why not include all of the godess' previous names? That would be a logic thing to do. Don't omit the Greek name but add her other names too. Pel thal (talk) 09:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the input. I will include the godesses other names as well.Lycianhittite (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Turkish is completely irrelevant as it was not spoken in the area until 1100 AD. The others can stay.--Tsourkpk (talk) 18:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no credibility in the changes you've made as you have in another talk labelled these views as ridiculous and did not provide an argument to the contrary but chose to insult others views in an arrogant manner.

The anatolians today, who by %85 are indigenous anatolians directly descendant from the ancient anatolians use the name Sibel to refer to their ancient goddess Kubaba. That means more than 50 million people using the name Sibel for Kubaba who are descendants of the people who actually created the myth of Kubaba!!!. For this reason the turkish name cannot be omitted as it is the language that the anatolians are currently using. Also, Cybele is of far less importance than Kubaba(Hittite) because, back then, the Greek Language did not even exist!! as the Hittite language is around 1000 years older than Greek.

P.S.The changes you've made are wrong, you translate Κυβέλη as Kubele to latin which should be Kiveli.

Lycianhittite (talk) 23:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

good source

[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.228.45 (talk) 06:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Livy

Hello, I miss a lot of Livy in this entry, because he tells most about how the Romans adopted the cult of Magna Mater / Cybele, and that's quite important for how the Romans used cults of other peoples. I altered the date, Livy says 205-4, not 210 BCE, and I will add some new information soon, when I've read the whole book of Livy and after my college on it (which will be this week). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.174.208.163 (talk) 10:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Origins

I have seen it suggested that Kybele was introduced as a Hittite/Hurrian Goddess during the Hittite period from Karchemish, where she was worshipped as Keba or Kubau (Padukeba the wife of Hattusilis III was a devotee as she was a high priestess to the divinity, and probably introduced her to Hattusas). Keba/Khebat or Kubau as she was variously known was identified with the Hurrian Goddess Hannahannah (=Mother's mother or Grandmother) who was an earth divinity. She was also worshipped at Jerusalem during the Amarna Period, where the ruler of the city was known as Abdikheba (Servant of Kheba). Kubau was a goddess especially favoured by travellers, and her Galla, or Gallu (from the Sumerian Gal = Great Lu = Man), were originally special helpers of the God Enki (Akkadian Ea), see the story of Inanna's descent when Enki sends his Gallu to bring Inanna back. Kheba seems also to have been the origin of the Aramaean Hawwah, who with her snake was a Goddess of learning and instruction as well (and may well have been the origin of the story of Eve). Kubau was an interesting person who was later divinised. She seems to have originally been a tavern keeper, in the city of Kish, and inaugurated the shortlived 3rd Dynasty of that city - she was the only woman I know of in Mesopotamian history who ruled as "King" (Lugal) in her own right. Divinised after her peaceful and prosperous reign, her worship was long lived. John D. Croft (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Kubaba has a Wikipedia page, and Kheba can be found at Hebat. Assertions that these goddesses and Cybele are identical should be tied to citations, perhaps with quotes, and edited into the respective articles. For divinised humans, see Euhemerus. --Wetman (talk) 18:59, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible relationship to Homeric Greece and Trojan War? Since we are having a decent chance to make comments on this "discussion" page, I would just like to quote from the main page; "Later, Cybele's most ecstatic followers were males who ritually castrated themselves, after which they were given women's clothing and assumed female identities, who were referred to by one third-century commentator, Callimachus, in the feminine as Gallai, but to whom other contemporary commentators in ancient Greece and Rome referred to as Gallos or Galli."

Take the above quotation and compare it to the Homeric description of Achilles? You might well see this: http://www.azerbaijanrugs.com/mp/jan_de_bray1.htm Thus, was Achilles a follower of Cybele? At best he seemed to have been a enuch, or at worst, a "cross dresser!" Was he but one of the "feminine" Gauls / Franks, or Phrygians / Galatians?69.92.23.64 (talk) 19:18, 27 April 2010 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes

Seated Woman of Çatalhöyük

Also see:

Talk:Çatalhöyük #Discussion of the "Seated Woman" figure and animals at her Feet

Talk:Seated Goddess of Catalhuyuk

Dubious statements

Several dubious unfounded presumptions found in the paragraph in Cybele #Anatolian Cybele (as of 30 April 2010):

1. Mother Goddess?
   1. "The current excavators at Catalhoyuk fail to speak about this figurine in any great detail—or any other of the rich figurine collection from the site. All they do is go into great detail about what the figurines are not (they are not deities)."
   2. "If this were true it would be very exciting, especially for the neopagan movement. However, if there is no reliable source that can verify this claim, it is more than likely mere Wiccan wishful thinking, as the triad of images listed seem to fit the traditional image set, established by Graves (of maiden, mother, and crone) just too well. Either it is remarkable coincidence, Wiccan providence, or simply statements repeated in ignorance. Please validate statement or remove to prevent further confusion between fact and fiction."
   3. "One of the most obvious examples of that is that Çatalhöyük is perhaps best known for the idea of the mother goddess. But our work more recently has tended to show that in fact there is very little evidence of a mother goddess and very little evidence of some sort of female-based matriarchy. That’s just one of the many myths that the modern scientific work is undermining."—Ian Hodder
   Perhaps the article Seated Goddess of Catalhuyuk should be moved to Seated Woman of Çatalhöyük, anybody?

   Done! (I degraded the "goddess" to a "woman".)

2. Giving birth? I have traced such claim possibly to the researcher James Mellaart.

   However: "Whereas Mellaart excavated nearly two hundred buildings in four seasons, the current excavator, Ian Hodder, spent an entire season excavating one building alone. Hodder and his team, in 2004 and 2005, began to believe that the patterns suggested by Mellaart were false."

3. How come they are lions and not leopards? I changed the description to less specific "feline" (inspired by a user comment in the other discussion page). Maybe they didn't have lions in Turkey at that time—easy to check for somebody more inclined.

   Lionesses? Somebody has gone even further in their speculations by describing the animals as lionesses in the description page for Image:Ankara Muzeum B19-36.jpg.

—6birc (talk) 23:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Analysis of edits

I traced the paragraph back to a massive contribution by User:Wetman (11 September 2003).

Originally it also contained statements:

• "Cybele's Anatolian origins probably predate the Bronze Age."
• "At her shrine at Çatal Hüyük she was depicted with the mural crown, that promised she could be a protector of cities."

This was removed by User:Csernica in an edit from 27 June 2007 and replaced with:

• "Various aspects of Cybele's Anatolian attributes probably predate the Bronze Age in origin." (Safer, but at the cost of vagueness.)
• "No direct connection with the later matar is documented, but the similarity to some of the later iconography is striking."

Çatal Hüyük Mother Goddess

I'm restoring the original statement—in the addition to the replacement—in the following form:

"At her shrine at Çatal Hüyük she was depicted with the mural crown,^{[citation needed]} suggesting the possibility that she could be a protector of cities."

Just in case it contains grain of truth.

Such possibility is made plausible by the information found in 6th millennium BC #Inventions, discoveries, introductions: "c. 6000 BC: Brick building was taking place at Çatalhöyük, Turkey."

—6birc (talk) 01:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I think now that the headdress at Çatal Hüyük (illustration) is perhaps an early version of the polos rather than a mural crown. I shall take the mural crown out.--Wetman (talk) 15:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Lost part-comment, part-contribution

In the above-mentioned edit (in section Cybele #Cybele and Attis) from 27 June 2007, User:Csernica has also removed the following, curious comment that was hidden in the source code of the page (not otherwise visible):

<!---Which legends? This needs referencing. In the Legends of Cybele we find Cybele was a bisexual monster who terrorized the land before he was castrated and became a eunuch. The Fig was sacred to Cybele, and curiously is rich in estrogens which was a necessary part of the diet of the priestesses. They also drank pregnant-mare horse urine, but the fig is favoured in the legend and is used to get a surrogate woman pregnant to give birth to Cybele's child, whom she called Attis. Cybele proceeded to dress Attis as a girl. When he ran off with a woman later in life Cybele gave pursuit but a place of fortification was barred to her (traditionally walled hills connected to worship of Diana). Finding the gate barred at this place of sanctuary, Cybele proceeded to charge the door with her head and in legend lifted the three concentric walls of the fortress up from their foundations upon her head which gave rise to the triple-crown of walled-battlements worn by Cybele (like the walled sanctuary crown of Diana). Attis was involved in a mystical death and resurrection, and Cybele nursed him until (s)he was reborn. There was an affinity of a type with the huntress Diana but also a rivalry in Aisa. Cybele is often shown seated on a throne being pulled on a chariot by two lions and was considered a sun-goddess after the line of Belit of the Mesopotamian cult of Bel.--->

This comment dates to an edit made by User:Neddyseagoon in the 5^th millennium BCE on 9 January 2007. The user has also added the {{Unreferenced}} tag to the section (even though it was referenced).

I've just thought that its proper place is here on the Talk page.

—6birc (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Cybele or Kubaba? (and other confusions)

1. 
   Cybele or Kubaba? All I have tried was to find examples how the Seated Goddess of Catalhuyuk resembles Cybele (there in this footnote by me). And then I found this statue from Latium, of Cybele (according to scholars)—only to find in its own inscription that it's dedicated to Cybebe! Even though, indeed, it bears all the attributes proper to the imagery of Cybele... or have scholars misattributed them all? Can't they perhaps read with understanding?
2. 
   Anatolian or Greek? Confusingly, one of the images I tried to use as an example—Anatolian Image:Cybele Bithynia Nicaea.jpg—is placed in section Cybele #Aegean Cybele. I tried to judge whether I shall move it in the text to the Anatolian section, but the problem is that it appears to deal with original, pre-hellenistic representations only. Although the Anatolian statue lacks dating information, to my rude uneducated eye it looks late and hellenistic. I might bet the dating is anything from 50 BCE onwards. So maybe it's been rightfully placed in the Aegean section. Yet Bithynia qualifies as Anatolia, doesn't it?

—6birc (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The only clarification that I have managed to find is this:

CYBEBE, es, f, Κυβήβη, Dea eadem, quae Cybele. Phaedr. 3, 20. Galli Cybebes circuso quaestus ducere Asinum solebant bajulantem sarcinus. Id. ib. IT. Pimus Cybebae, populus celsa Herculi. Vet. Inter., quam se primuni vidisse testatur Marquard. Gwd. ad Phaedr. с. f.20. Virius Marcarianus V. C. Deam Cybeben P. S. P Multis, satisque solidis argumentis idem Gudius ib. probare nititur, quotiescumque hujus vocis paenultima a poetia producitur, Cybebe scribendum esse, non Cybele, aut Cybelle, quud Graeci tantum vel Κυβέλη dixerint, vel Κυβήλη, unde fieri Latinum Cybèle, et Cybèbe, quorum prioris paenultimatum produci non posse, alterius omnino debere; quod utraque vox aeque apud poetas, ас prosae scriptores in usu fuerint; quod ita babeatur in optimis MSS. Phaedri, Virg. A. 10, 220a., Lucani 1, 600. etc. Eodem modo legendum esse in Sil. IT, 8. et alibi, putat Drak., et in Prudentii [...illegible...] 10, 196. Heins. et in Prop. 3, 15, 35. et alibi Brouk. etc. Horum auctoritate et rationibus explodenda est Cybele paenultirna producta tanquam sit necessitate a Graeco Κυβήλη: et Cybelle duplici ll, tanquam sit necessitate aut licentia poetica indocta [inducta]: quamquam utraque scribendi ratio suos [suus] aliquot hübet et codices MSS. et fautores.

—Totius latinitatis lexicon (1831)

It helps, doesn't it?

—6birc (talk) 19:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. This is indeed messy; I'll see what I can find out. Vultur (talk) 23:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"Dea eadem, quae Cybele." -- "the same goddess as Cybele". It doesn't help that the Latin above has OCR errors at points. The "Phaedr." is a reference to the Fables of Phaedrus. An English translation is here. It's about the Galli pushing an ass around on their begging trips and hitting it as they went. When it died, they skinned it and made a tambourine, and joked that the ass may have thought death would bring an end to its misery, but here it was, being beaten still. (Nice people) Roger Pearse (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Atalanta and Hippomenes

"As lions they then drew Cybele's chariot, which sometimes numbered to seven."

Cybele had seven chariots? Atalanta and Hippomenes turned into seven lions? This is very unclear. Vultur (talk) 23:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Plaza

Is it useful to have the article on a modern city square named after an ancient divinity on top of the article on the divinity in question; Plaza de Cibeles coming before Cybele herself here. Are we prepared to place Allahabad on top of Allah, Christchurch on top of Christ. See, as an example, St. Peter (disambiguation). Cretanforever (talk) 06:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Article is full of misinformation

This deity was greatly feared by christians and they made a major effort to spread misinformation during the dark ages, when they re-wrote or destroyed a lot of records. In addition, many modern authors have done a terrible job of research, tending to repeat the same old misinformation. I have spent thousands of hours^{[citation needed]} researching Cybele and my personal opinion about this article is that it is really awful. I wish I could help, but someone keeps reversing my edits. Priestess Jean 12:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Priestess Jean (talk • contribs)

You mean the link you added in 2008? To this website? Haploidavey (talk) 14:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)