Talk:Dado Pršo

correct name

By the way. to the person below "serbo-croatian" is not a language, it was introduced as an artificial language to unify the four distinct languages of the people of the former yugoslavia, and rightly so was abolished when the republics broke away and went their seperate ways

The correct name is: "Dado Pršo". Thanks for changing it! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neoneo13 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 8 February 2005

That's a piece of crap. You are totally wrong! The truth is just the opposite to what you're talking above. Serbocroatian is ONE language, which because of some political reasons now has 5 names: croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Bunjevac. That's a nonsense splitting the language into 5 names, which are 98%-99% identical. SerboCroatian is a recognized language in all the world, no matter what name it wears, everybody knows that when we're talking about 'croatian', we also mean 'serbian' and bosnian'. That is tha fact, and not any meaningless propaganda or any remaints of it can change that fact. Cheers.24.86.110.10 (talk) 05:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually I'm a student from Croatia studying languages at Zagreb's faculty of philosophy and I can assure you that there is no longer such thing as Serbo-Croatian. The reason why it was recognized before was because the Yugoslav academy of arts and science decided to see it that way for purely political reasons. In the same way, today's Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin languages DO exist as separate entities (even though they are very closely related) and are seen as distinct languages in countries which made them their official languages. Since status of a language is not only purely linguistic, but also a sociolinguistic issue, the reasons for making them separate today is strong enough. I suggest you consult Trudgill's short introduction to sociolinguistics, which should be available at any English-language bookstore or library. In conclusion - Serbo-Croatian was a purely politically motivated construct developed in the 1950's, and the languages that we have today are products of political circumstances of the 1990's. The fact that their vocabulary and grammar are very similar to one other has nothing to do with it - but I can also assure you that their differences are bound to grow larger and that Serbian and Croatian are very likely to grow further apart in the years to come.Timbouctou (talk) 13:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you are a student in Croatia ... than it is surely wrong :)) You fake history, facts, everything. Did you learn that today's Croatian is Serbian as since 1850. and Vienna's agreement Croats took Serbian language as literal and ever since speak in Serbian. Real Croatian is kept just in parts of Zagorje today. Right :)?

What you are saying is a total nonsense. Firstly, not any sociolinguistic issue can change the fact that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bunjevac and Montenegrin are ONE language in all linguistic and other categories, and will stay one and same language. Secondly, NOT SERBOCROATIAN, but today's SEPARATE STANDARDS of it, which are ridiculously treated as 'separate languages' in the countries they're spoken (and nowhere else in the world)- ARE PROUCT OF SICK AND UNNATURAL POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES. That's a fact and not any propaganda from you can change it. And Thirdly, Serbian and Croatian standards of the Central South Slavic Diasystem (or as it is also known as-SerboCroatian Language) ARE NOT GROWING APART, and for your big dissapointment-they will never grow apart. On the contrary, with the obvious collapse of your miserable propaganda of 'separate languages' in the recent years, most of young people in Croatia reject all the stupid neologisms that your dying propaganda has created in 1990's. Major part of the Croatians are, thanks God, normal and cannot be brainwashed by any nationalistic propaganda about the language, which doesn't make any sense. They see the unity of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bunjevac and Montenegrin language as a natural thing and accept it as a fact. They hear and watch every day on TV -various programs with a variety of dialects of SerboCroatian, coming from Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Croatia, which is treated as a same language zone. Majority of today's young Croatians sing the songs of the Serbian pop and folk singers and vice versa, also Serbian TV (especially the entertainment one) is widely spread and accepted in Croatia, and watched more than any other TV in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro etc. Also all the other cultural influences within the West Balkans, where Serbia and Croatia both belong are the nonbreakable uniting factor, which will bring the new croatian and serbian generations back together, with a new united language in the near future. Your dividing and hateful propaganda of 'separate languages and nations' will die soon, and the new generations will laugh at its stupidity and nosense. These are the facts of the actual state, everything else is an isolated utopistic phantasy of a brainwashed mind, that exists only in your head and in the heads of a few leftover brainwashed nationalists. Greetings;24.86.116.250 (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, since linguistics as a science doesn't really have clear lines separating "languages" from "dialects", the sociolinguistic factor does turn out to be quite important in granting either status to any variety of language. In other words, if people living in Croatia/Serbia/Bosnia seem to regard their own languages as distinctly Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian, then those languages should be (and in fact, already are) seen as separate languages, regardless of the many similarities they have (You might want to look up something about the Macedonian language for an example where it's the other way round - Macedonians claiming and classifying it as a distinct language, while most Bulgarian scholars see it as just a dialect of Bulgarian, since they are too mutually intelligible). Secondly, Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian ARE treated as separate languages in these countries, as well as in the rest of the world, with many universities around the world offering programs for students wishing to study Croatian, not Serbo-Croatian. Thirdly, these languages are bound to get official statuses as distinct languages throughout the European Union once the Croatian negotiations on joining the EU are finished (there have been some suggestions that ex-Yugoslav states should be listed as speaking one language to reduce bureaucracy, but these ideas haven's really seen a lot of support from either Croatia or Serbia). Lastly, these languages ARE and WILL CONTINUE to grow apart precisely because of differing standards being enforced with the purpose to make them more distinct, on all sides of the borders. It's just a fact of life, regardless what you may feel about it. I'm not really a big fan of imposing neologisms, which has been practiced widely in the 1990s - but it's also a fact that while many of them simply died away, numerous others survived and are growing in popularity (for instance, when i went to primary school in Zagreb in the 1980s, we called our homeworks domaća zadaća. Today schoolchildren in Croatia call it domaći uradak, while in Serbia it's domaći rad. There are countless examples of this, and whether you like it or not, those children cannot and will not revert to what was spoken before the 1990s simply because things like domaća zadaća were never part of their vocabulary in the first place. As for the genesis of Serbo-Croatian, it really was a unifying standard created out of political motives, just as the differing standards of today were also politically motivated. Politics and linguistics are very tightly related in the Balkans and anyone who spent any time living here can tell you that. As for the whole "brainwashed propaganda yadda yadda" it's basically a mix of bullshit and wishful thinking. It's nice of you to see such a bright future for young Croats and Serbs - but it really has nothing to do with what has actually been going on language-wise in these areas for the last 15 years or so. Timbouctou (talk) 18:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You can repeat your lies for thousand times if you want, but it won't change the facts that Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian is, and will always be - ONE language. The examples of the type you mention above are ridiculous and shallow because all those 'differences' are on a level of DIALECTS, and they are present in all today's languages inbetween theirown dialects. By your 'logic' Americans speak 'American language', because they go to 'ELEVATOR', but Englishmen speak English language because they go to the 'LIFT'. Those are 2 totally different words for a same thing. That's insane, pathetic and ridiculous, carrying a hidden hatred agenda behind itself. This shows how miserable is your unsuccessful and dirty cro-nationalistic propaganda, which is luckily coming to an end. You have absolutelly no arguments of what you're presenting on this page, the truth is totally different and obviously it's making you more and more frustrated. Nobody will buy your propaganda anymore, as it's an obvoius scam, HA, HA. Why don't you face the truth and accept it like all the world accepts it or why don't you start living in reality instead of your isolated pathetic world? And again, the truth is: -NO MATTER what the few of you and your dying propaganda presents on this page, - Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (and now Bunjevac and Montenegrin) speaches are GENETICALLY one language, also they are STRUCTURALLY, SYNTAXICALLY and GRAMMATCALLY 98-99% IDENTICAL, they are getting more and more united and the world will treat them, like always- as a SAME LANGUAGE. Remember that Time is not on your side and it will never be on your side again. Time is on the side on the TRUTH and you're doing nothing good to yourself ignoring that fact. And FOR YOU BIG MISFORTUNE, now and in the time to come- there will be more and more uniting cultural happenings between the same speaking area of Serbia, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Croatia and Montenegro. The latest uniting show 'OPERACIJA TRIUMF', a copy of 'American Idol', is going to happen in the end of September, it will broadcast from Serbia and will go on TV's in SERBIA/CROATIA/BOSNIA/MONTENEGRO. It will be lead by famous showmen from Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia, and the numerous contestants are going to sing in ONE COMMON LANGUAGE FOR ALL THESE COUNTRIES, and that is SERBOCROATIAN or SERBIAN/BOSNAIN/CROATIAN. Those are the latest facts of what I am presenting here, and that's the truth. As for Bulgarian and Macedonian, today those are separate languages, and that fact is accepted by all institutions in the world. They don't have to do anything with the Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin/Bunjevac language and any connection of these two above with the SerboCroatian speaking area is PATHETIC and totally out of mind. Those are the facts and there's no need to discuss more about this topic, because it's stupid to repeat the facts on and on. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 02:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha, here's one more freshest prove and a link to the article, where they write about the Croatian writer Mirko Kovac receiving the 2008 prize for the BEST CONTEMPORARY NOVEL IN THE SERBOCROATIAN SPEAKING AREA, or the area of BOSNIA, CROATIA, SERBIA and MONTENEGRO. The prize is given every year in Tuzla, Bosnia, and there are competitors from all SerboCroatian speaking area. This is only one of the MILLION FACTS that confirm the UNITY of the Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian or SERBOCROATIAN LANGUAGE, with its growing number every next day. The truth is slowly, but surely coming out to the surface. It's killing you and fact is that you and your failed propaganda are going to the history, forever. P.S. The article is in SerboCroatian, enjoy: http://www.blic.co.yu/kultura.php?id=55969

Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Even though this is obviously a waste of time since the person leaving these comments has no linguistics arguments whatsoever and bases all their assumptions on just repeating I'm lying and similar garbage comments, I'll just copy/paste what Wikipedia (yeah, the site we're on at the moment) has to say about Serbo-Croatian:

"With the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, its languages followed suit and Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian became separate standards (Ausbausprachen). Currently, there is a movement to create a Montenegrin language, separate from Serbian. Conversely, the complex term "Serbo-Croatian" declined in use, first from official documents and gradually from linguistic literature. Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to history, politics, and the variable meanings of the word language. Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the use of the name should be deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity."

"Except during the period that extended roughly from the 1920s through the 1980s, people have not called the language Serbo-Croatian, but have tended to use their ethnic/national names. Most Bosniaks refer to their language as Bosnian. Most Croats refer to their language as Croatian. Most Serbs refer to their language as Serbian. Most Montenegrins refer to their language as Montenegrin. The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has specified different Universal Decimal Classification (UDC) numbers for Croatian (UDC 862, abbreviation hr) and Serbian (UDC 861, abbreviation sr), while the cover term Serbo-Croatian is used to refer to the combination of original signs (UDC 861/862, abbreviation sh). Furthermore, the ISO 639 standard designates the Bosnian language with the abbreviations bos and bs. The majority of mainstream Serbian linguists consider Serbian and Croatian to be one language, that is used to be called Serbo-Croatian (srpskohrvatski)/ Croato-Serbian (hrvatskosrpski). A minority of Serbian linguists are of the opinion that Serbo-Croatian did exist, but has, in the meantime, dissolved. Before 1900 and also now, a minority agree that a "Serbo-Croatian" language has never existed and that this term designates a Croatian variant of the Serbian language. The majority of Croatian linguists think that there was never anything like a unified Serbo-Croatian language, but two different standard languages that overlapped sometime in the course of history. Also, they claim that the language has never dissolved, since there was never a Serbo-Croatian standard language. A minority of Croatian linguists deny that the Croatian standard language is based on the neo-Shtokavian dialect."

As for your examples concerning British and American standards of English - yeah, if the American Congress passed a bill saying that the official language in USA is "American", and if their linguistics could present a linguistically supported case for the separation from the British standard, then yeah - American and English would then be considered as two closely related, but separate, languages. And the situation is exactly like that in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia today. Should we expect yet another flooding of upper cased insults coming from your general direction? Timbouctou (talk) 20:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

No matter the trash you're continuing to write, the truth is that wikipedia HAS ACCEPTED SerboCroatian as a language, along with all the politically created 'languages' from it, such as 'croatian, 'serbian', 'bosnian', etc. As far as the American language is concerned, I don't think the Americans are that much COO COO as the cro-nationalists, to pass bills of theirown language, eventhough American and British version of English language are really quite different, much more different than the 'serbian' and croatian' variants of SerboCroatian language. To see how much differ 'serbian' from 'croatian', there is a BIG article at wikipedia, where a same text is compared in both versions. The result is that they are more than 97% IDENTICAL, and there are just 3-4 words that are different, but in reality those words are actually SYNONIMS and can be used in both versions. WITH THIS FACT (which is killing you), it can be comfortably said that 'serbian' and 'croatian' variants of SerboCroatian language are actually 100% SAME and there's NO DIFFERENCE between them! Considering the fact that you don't know anything about Central South Slavic or SerboCroatian language, and your obvious tendencies to spread your defeated cro-nationalistic propaganda of hatred and separation on these pages, you had better stop doing it, because this is a place where normal people meet to discuss about the topics and nobody needs your trash here, on the pages of wikipedia. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 06:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is, it's neither up to you (an idiot that obviously never lived in former Yugoslavia) nor any other wikipedian to make these judgmements. It's a matter of what the official governing bodies of language say. The Croatian constitution (section 12) explicitly states that the official language of the country is CROATIAN. As for Serbia, the SERBIAN language is a designated as the official language of Serbia and Montenegro (after the constitution was changed in the late 1990's and after it replaced "Serbo-Croatian". In fact there is no country in the world that calls their language Serbo-Croatian, and it is today used as a linguistic umbrella term for all the dialects in this region. I'm sure your Canadian IP address perhaps makes you an expert on South Slavic languages, but leave the peoples in this part of the world the right to differentiate their languages the way they see fit. Timbouctou (talk) 13:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, you can say whatever you want, but an idiot can be only you, not me. Have I lived in former Yugoslavia or not, that's out of topic now. The fact is that whatever the Central South Slavic speaking countries of the Former Yugoslavia call their 'languages' or dialects, it's just for their INNER use, not for the outside world. The world recognizes and accepts the fact that it's just ONE LANGUAGE with a few different names. Greetings.24.86.116.250 (talk) 04:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC) The fact is that Serbian and Croatian are just 2 accents of a same language, known as Serbo-Croat, which is spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia&Hercegovina and Montenegro. Even the kids in kindergarden know this. Who cannot see this fact is a moron, and whoever doesn't want to see this fact is one of the last brainwashed idiots, whose collapsed croatian nationalistic propaganda is dying every next day, slowly and surely as the newborn Yugosphere takes over damaged minds and returns back the reason between the Serbo-Croatian speaking people. Zivili!207.216.132.111 (talk) 03:55, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

regarding the first name

Dado Pršo had his name officially changed.

65.92.174.168 wrote: rv. exactly which part of that guideline didn't the opening section meet!? every single footy bio on Wiki starts in exact same manner - full name, widely used nickname in qoutes (if any), DOB, POB

However, Miladin is not actually his full name as advertized by himself. He only uses Dado, so his original name obviously became secondary.

Somehow I feel that you would benefit from reading sr:Разговор:Дадо Пршо. --Joy [shallot] 23:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to tell me? That Prso's full name isn't Miladin anymore simply because he mostly goes by his nickname Dado. Going by your logic, I guess Robert "is not actually Robbie Fowler's full name" because he only uses Robbie. Or Velibor all of a sudden stopped being Bora Milutinovic's full name since he uses Bora. Or Sol Campbell's full name magically stopped being Sulzeer since he widely goes by his nickname Sol.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to read Serbo-Croatian, so you'll have to write out whatever it was that you wanted to communicate to me. If you have verifiable info that Prso did legally change his first name, please post it. 69.156.113.195 04:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't mostly go by his "nickname", he only goes by it. I have seen one media report where a journalist tried to get him to confirm that his name is Miladin, but he (Pršo) has not done so.

Obviously neither of us have any idea what his passport says. However, we do not have verifiable info about his birth certificate either, and no information that he did not legally change his first name, either.

So I think it's pointless to harp on Miladin as the first word of the article without actual reason. --Joy [shallot] 10:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Sulzeer Campbell only and exclusively goes by Sol and yet nobody is disputing that his full first name is Sulzeer, which is esentially what you're doing in Prso's case, for the reasons only known to you. And your basis for doing so is the following flimsy statement "well you haven't seen his birth certificate". Well, I don't think people who wrote Sol Campbell's entry on Wiki (or any other footy bio of a player that uses a nickname) saw his birth certificate either, but there's enough verifiable sources that confirm the fact his name is Sulzeer.

In Prso's case there's also enough sources that confirm his name is Miladin. So, we do have verifiable info about his full name being Miladin, unless you personally consider France Presse (AFP) or ESPN not to be reputable sources, but that would be something to deal with on your own time.

So he obviously did confirm that his name is Miladin to some journalists, or are you saying that France Presse people pulled that info out of their behinds.

And it's absolutely ridiculous that you would label the inclusion of his full name in the first paragraph (like every single other Wiki bio does) as harping. The actual reason for that is the fact every other bio does it. You seem to be the only one who has a problem with it for some reason. 65.92.173.18 18:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think I've seen any reason to believe that the news agencies have confirmed the information about Pršo's first name. The unsigned AFP story which you keep linking doesn't quote any reference, it just asserts so! Is that supposed to be an encyclopedic reference?

BTW, User:Dr.Gonzo said at one point he legally changed his name to Dado. I'd be interested to see any actual reference for that, too.

--Joy [shallot] 00:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It sure is fun to be skeptical, but now you're just being absurd. You're suggesting that a newswire agency (one of the two most famous and respectable in the world) either has some sort of an agenda when it comes to Prso or isn't thorough enough in its reporting.

No, they can't be accused of being not thorough enough - they were actually trying to be too thorough. No other journalist noted anything of the sort, there is no review system in place (other than their editors), and for all we know, the journalist who wrote that might as well have just found this information by Googling. The Wikipedia:No original research policy doesn't say that newswire agencies aren't to be trusted, but it doesn't grant them some sort of infallibility either. Here we have one single report noting a first name that nobody else uses and calls it "real name" (as if they know that this is his current official, legally valid name). And on the other hand we have *him*, and everyone else, saying that his current real name is Dado. So which is relevant? --Joy [shallot] 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And your basis for such an outlandish claim is an unsubstantiated statement by user Dr.Gonzo. Hey, I love Dr.Gonzo as much as the next man, but I think it's safe to say that AFP has a little more credibility.

No, I never said that. That was a side note in a separate paragraph. Please read more carefully. --Joy [shallot]

As for what Dr.Gonzo suggested, yes, I too would be interested to see an actual reference for that, if there is any. Hopefully something more credible than a fan forum.65.95.236.128 08:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to explicate a few things - the sr: talk page has one comment from one anonymous user who says he knew him in person, and he said that Miladin was his name in school, and that his parents called him Dado. Googling found me more anonymous comments on two forums saying that Pršo was using Dado when he went to in France. --Joy [shallot] 00:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Weeeell, again....Surely, you're not suggesting school tales to be legit sources. I really see no relevance in this. I use my nickname regularly for introduction purposes and everyday use, all of which doesn't make my full name nonexistant all of a sudden. If someone has a source that Prso did legally change his name, please post it.

As it is, we have a verifiable source on Prso's full name being Miladin and I see no reason why that piece of information should not be included as part of the opening paragraph in accordance with the way all other footy bios on Wikipedia are laid out.65.95.236.128 08:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

We have a news story with no references that conflicts the rest of the world. That is a "verifiable source" only pro forma. --Joy [shallot] 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Right! And by "the rest of the world" you mean four dudes on some football forum and Dr.Gonzo!65.94.137.46 21:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the rest of the world is him and every other media outlet out there, like I said above. --Joy [shallot] 21:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Out where? Where are these reports?65.95.238.176 00:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

My God, this is idiotic. Type Prso into news.google.com and find a Miladin. There is one out of 280 that mentions it. This discussion is pointless. --Joy [shallot] 10:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You're the one making it idiotic by pretending that fan forums and insinuations are legit sources. You're not an idiot, yet you pretend to be one, and, since you know that you can't produce a verifiable source that Prso legally changed his name, now you're just being petulant. The fact that he goes by Dado (which is obvious), the same way Sulzeer Campbell goes by Sol or, Charles "Sonny" Liston, Earvin "Magic" Johnson or every single other case under the sun, doesn't make Prso's first name non-existant. And there's a verifiable source that his first name is Miladin. Period. The fact that you pretend that AFP isn't reputable (or that you pretend that AFP and Dr.Gonzo or some guy you met in pre-school have the same weight when it comes to news claims) is OK in your little pretend "pro forma" world, but not in the wider one.65.92.174.102 19:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The way you want to phrase the article would suggest that Prso's full first name is Dado. It is not - it's his widely used nickname. By phrasing the article your way, you're trying to insinuate that he legally changed his birth name, without producing any proof. Absolutely none.65.92.174.102 19:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I reject the notion that one news article's likely bad phrasing (they could have just said "original" instead of "real" name) is infallible proof that he and nobody around him is somehow never using his real name and instead only consistently using another name. But never mind. We're going in circles. This is not going to be resolved until someone scans his current ID. --Joy [shallot] 20:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Reject it all you want, but on your own time please. Personal beefs and gripes over phrasing and semantics are a POV you're entitled to, but not through Wikipedia. And it was phrased "real" because that's still Prso's full first name - "original" would imply that he changed it in the mean time (like Cassius Clay --> Muhammad Ali, or Lew Alcindor --> Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) wouldn't it. And Prso obviously didn't do that.

But, regardless of our discussion, I'm not sure why are you so perplexed on your personal level. There are literally thousands of examples of notable sports figures in the world being known in public almost exclusively by their nicknames Penny Hardaway (real first name: Anfernee), Mookie Blaylock (rfn: Daron), Red Auerbach (rfn: Arnold), Toe Blake (Hector), King Clancy (rfn: Francis), Tie Domi (Tahir), Cotton Fitzsimmons (Lowell), Danny Blind (Dirk), Bumper Tormohlen (Eugene), Press Maravich (Peter), Butch van Breda Kolff (Willem), Pippo Inzaghi (Filippo), Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink (Jerrel), Co Adriaanse (Jacobson), and so on, and so forth......... The list is literally endless. 65.94.140.203 21:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Dr.Gonzo discussion

I don't like having my name (or username) put in a rediculosly hostile contexts like you've been doing, User:65.94.140.203. I have perfectly good reasons to claim that the man did infact change his name, and in any case, virtually noone refers to him as Miladin, including himself. I'm aware that you won't be satisfied until you see his ID (fat chance of that happening anytime soon), but let me just direct your attention to the article published by Sportske Novosti on November 23rd, 2003. where Prso comments on Slovenian press headlines after Euro 2004 qualifiers ("Serb leds Croatia to victory over Slovenia"), in which he commented "I'm Croatian, I'm overjoyed to have been given a shirt with croatan coat of arms, and that I could contribute in a small way (to Croatian side victory). I'm Croatian, everything else is nonsense." or, in original croatian: "Ja sam Hrvat, presretan sam što sam dobio majicu s hrvatskim grbom i što sam mogao Hrvatskoj nešto malo pridonijeti. Ja sam Hrvat, sve ostalo su gluposti."

And how is any of this relevant to what we have been talking about? I do not see anything in that quote of his that suggest he legally changed his name, which is what you keep suggesting without providing any verifiable info in support, all the while continuing to vandalize this article.

Furthermore, when you say that you "have perfectly good reasons to claim that Prso did infact change his name" I can only remind you that you do not require a proof of your good reasons or anything so deeply esoteric, all you need to do is provide verifiable info for your claims.

65.95.239.86 07:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It is relevant since you yourself cannot provide verifiable sources for your claims either. His legal name IS Dado Prso since he himself never suggested otherwise. The whole controversy originates from an article in a slovenian newspaper following the defeat of the Slovenian national team in qualifications for Euro 2004 against Croatia, and Dado himself commented in a way already cited. I wish we could ask him personally but since that is not likely to happen anytime soon, we need to go with the VERIFIABLE version. And Miladin is certainly not verifiable. Prove me wrong with PRIMARY SOURCES. I suspect the ESPN article is simply a translation of the slovenian one, (infact I know it is) so that one doesn't count. --Dr.Gonzo 09:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On another note, "miladin prso" gives exactly 180 results in Google, "dado prso" gives 321.000. That speaks volumes. Therefore, if the man wants to be called Dado we will call him Dado. End of story. I agree we should mention the fact that he is ethnic Serb and that his given name is Miladin, but your way of going about doing that makes me question your motives. I'm reverting back to my previous version. --Dr.Gonzo 03:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That only speaks to the fact that he prefers to go by his nickname, and this article reflects that fact as it is titled Dado Prso and not Miladin Prso. His real name is mentioned in the same way real names of all the other athletes are mentioned in Wikipedia bios. All those other athletes mentioned above (Sol Campbell, Sonny Liston, Magic Johnson,....etc, etc.) also go by their nicknames, which doesn't make thier real names nonexistent.

So, one more time, please stop petulantly vandalizing this page while providing no proof for your claims. 65.95.239.86

That is a logical fallacy - argumentum ad populum. The fact that many athletes use their nicknames in place of their given names doesn't mean Dado is doing the same.

Also, acusing one of vandalization without some pretty good evidence is considered a personal attack and is generally against Wikipedia rules of conduct. Also, coming from an anonymous user, directed against an established contributer it is especially rediculous. The fact is - the man himself never, EVER said his name is Miladin, and infact, this has never been verified by any source other than Slovenian "Delo" newspaper. So, if you keep reverting my edits I'll consider reporting it to the administrators and request a block on anonymous user edits. --Dr.Gonzo 09:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you call deliberately deleting verifiable info and replacing it with claims with zero support? That is vandalism.

You'll have to provide a lot more than one source if you want me to support this. Btw, you call 321.000 Google hits zero support? Interesting. Oh, and by the way, you may want to read up on WP:Vandalism before making any more outlandish claims. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"The fact that many athletes use their nicknames in place of their given names doesn't mean Dado is doing the same." He obviously is doing the same since there are verifiable sources about his real name being Miladin.

Again, I want to see more then one news article before I can support that. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, term "established contributor" is of absolutely no meaning in this context and that fact that you are registered doesn't give you right to engage in vandalism that is to delete verifiable information and replace it with unsupported claims.

This is your last warning - if you continue with ad hominem attacks, I will report it. Btw, you might want to read up on Wikipedia:Assume Good Faith --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Finally, the source for Prso's name being Miladin is a reputable news agency called AFP, so please stop giving false information about there not being a source. There is a source and you keep deleting it.65.95.236.26 10:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It pretty much amounts to hear-say. He has never publicaly declared himself a Serb, and has never publicaly used the name Miladin. Why AFP would report such obscurities is beyond me, but they are certainly not infallible and without secondary sources it cannot be accepted as fact. --Dr.Gonzo 12:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We've been down this road before with Joy. The fact that you consider AFP reporting (an agency quoted and carried all accross the world) as hear-say is your own POV and you can excersise it all you want on your own time, but you have no right to delete verifiable info that's been carried by numerous media outlets across the globe. And on top of that you should not make claims with absolutely no factual support.

Nobody is disputing the fact he goes by his nickname. That is way this article is named Dado Prso, but there's a very reputable and verifiable source that's been carried by many others about his real name and ethnic roots, so I see no reason outside of emotional nationalistic-inspired football fervor to resort to removing that info and replacing it with completely unsupported claims.

There's a reason media outlets use news agencies as their sources - that being a certain reliability and factual accuracy. And along with Retuers, AFP is the most famous news agency in the world.

And the fact that Prso supposedly avoids talking about his real name in home media doesn't really surprise me. Look at the wrath such a simple thing like his real name and roots is gathering from ardent footy fans such as yourself. One can only imagine the sort of unpleasntness he would be exposed to if he openly flaunted his real name and roots.65.92.174.50 12:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, provide just one Reuters source that refers to him as Miladin and I'll shut the hell up. Until then, no, this won't fly. And again, you're drawing conclusions about me (and Dado Prso) based on your own prejudice. I'm not interested in concealing anything, I'm interested in creating factualy accurate articles. If this can't be positively verified (and no, one AFP article doesn't do that) then I can't in good concience let it be included in the article. It has nothing to do with my (supposed) feelings on the subject. Btw, Serbian Wikipedia has gone down this road also, and after arduous debate they concluded that it can't be positively established that his real name is Miladin, or that he is ethnic Serb, since he never declared himself as anything else than Dado Prso, Croatian. And considering the subject, I would think they would be very motivated indeed to get to the bottom of this... In any case, the relevant discussion is here: sr:Разговор:Дадо Пршо. --Dr.Gonzo 13:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, so how many outlets have to carry the AFP story for you to be satisifed (so far I've found about 10 and stopped counting, FIFA offical site[1], ESPN(on the main page), The Australian, sportlive.at austrian website[2], and so on.....). Surely, some of them would be little apprehensive about running a story if it sounded fishy. However, they didn't do that. The story was good enough for all of them but it is not for you, for some strange reason.

Furthermore, the main article link on the bottom of the page to Canadian Omni-TV also mentions him as Miladin "Dado" Prso[3] independently of the AFP story. There's another story, with no reference to AFP (I believe it's Dutch) that mentions him as Miladin [4].

So I'll say it again just as I did to Joy: You can personally dispute/disapprove of AFP (and also other sources like Canadian Tv and Dutch TV) all you want but out in the wide world AFP is one of the top sources of information and as such it certainly takes precedence over your personal doubts and claims about his name change that you're not able to substantiate with anything verifiable. Info about his real name and ethnicity, on the other hand, is verifiable.

Furthermore, the AFP story doesn't only list his real name and ethnicity offhand but also provides many other details from his life and career path vry thoroughly. Why you're having trouble accepting this is beyond me.

As for the other big news wire agency, unlike AFP they did not write a big profile on Prso probably because AFP already did, and because frankly he isn't that huge of a football star for both of the world's big agencies to write specifically about his life story. He's primarily of interest to wider global media precisely for his interesting and colourful life path, and one world agency got his story out there.

As for the Serbian discussion, all that I can pick up from it is that it's old news since it ended a year ago, and that Joy took part in it. Since he seems to have now accepted, albeit begrungingly, that in the meantime a reputable, verifiable source has appeared about Prso's first name he would have probably mentioned by now if there was anything worth mentioning from that Serbian discussion.67.68.44.127 14:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You got it wrong. I did not accept that reputable, verifiable source has appeared [supporting your point]. I merely left it as is because I don't care enough to argue this any more with you. There are more important things in life. --Joy [shallot] 21:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm having "trouble accepting it" because the man himself has refuted the fact in the only public reaction to the subject at hand. The question is - is he a Serb if he doesn't declare himself as such, is he Miladin if he exclusively calls himself Dado? These are important questions. I suspect that the AFP article got it wrong from the start, probably by carrying parts of the story from the Slovenian "Delo" newspaper from November 20th, 2003., whose allegations Dado refuted in Croatian sporting newspaper "Sportske Novosti" on November 23rd, 2003. All those other sources you cited are only reprints of the original AFP article, and as for the Dutch source, I really can't comment since I don't speak Dutch. In any case, the issue HAS been covered by Dado himself and I feel we should respect his stance on it, by not including any of this questionable information. Besides, this conversation will stay here for all those who might be interested about this. --Dr.Gonzo 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition to Dutch source, there's also a Canadian source that lists him as Miladin "Dado" Prso[5]. So in addition to widely cited and reputable AFP - that's three sources.

The issue that we're discussing here has actually NOT been covered in that Novtosti article, and that is the issue of your claim that he legally changed his name. You did not provide a single source in support of that claim. As for him prefering to go by his nickname, that doesn't in any way whatsoever negate his real name nor does it render it unworthy of mention. As I already said to Joy I myself have a fairly long first name and prefer to use my nickanme/shortened name even for official formal purposes, all of which didn't make my real name nonexistant. Additionaly, this is exactly the same as those million other examples of athletes who are widely known by their nicknames. So, repeating myself for the millionth time [[Sol Campbell]'s name didn't stop being Sulzeer simply because he prefers not to use it widely...... same thing with the dozens and dozens of other examples I listed above.

So, to answer your question is he Miladin if he exclusively calls himself Dado -- yes he is. Until he legally changes his name, that is. If that were to occur in the future, he would become formerly known as Miladin, like Muhammad Ali is formerly known as Cassius Clay. These are not some mystical existentialist, esoteric, philosphical questions but rather simple biographical facts that were verified.

The fact that Prso prefers to call himself Dado is reflected in this article through the fact that the article's very title is Dado Prso. However, you're trying to have his real name not included in the article by claiming that he legally changed it --- while providing absolutely no sources in support, other than saying that you have good reasons for claiming so. And lately, you're even introducing this philosphical idea along the lines of "if nobody saw a tree fall in the woods, did it really fall" which in your case became "ok well maybe his name is Miladin but if nobody calls him by that name is it really his name", all of which has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about here. This is not a philospohical discussion, but purely a biographical one. His real name is Miladin until he legally changes it. Plain and simple.65.94.128.37 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My source for the name change issue is Croatian wikipedia. I simply translated what is written there. Unfortunately that article doesn't cite sources either. Infact, no other wikipedia except the english one even mentions this issue (and they're not just translations) and that certainly says something. On another note, Google News search at this time gives 680 results for "Dado Prso" and only one for "Miladin Prso".

But you know what? I don't care either way. You obviously have an agenda here, and I have better things to do than arguing about this. But what you're doing is wrong, that's all I have to say. --Dr.Gonzo 16:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, really, shame on me for including verifiable info from relevant and reputable sources.

As for Google mentions, you're again missing the point. Nobody is disputing the fact that Prso widely goes in public by his nickname, which your example aptly demonstrates. I will thus remind you again that the title of this Wiki article is Dado Prso for that reason precisely. Google news search for "Sulzeer Campbell" returns 3 results, "Sol Campbell" returns 1890. That does not however mean Sol Campbell's real name suddenly stopped being Sulzeer. "Anfernee Hardaway" returns 5, "Penny Hardaway" returns 150. That does not make his real name Anfernee any less. Etc, etc......with all the earlier mentioned examples.

Person's real name does not dissappear into thin air simply because most in public refer to him/her by his/her nickname.69.156.113.164 03:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

removing facts

Please stop removing facts from the article. This is considered vandalism.--Lowg 23:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm..

But he's still Serbian Orthodox, his hometown was full of Serbs... I think he doesn't want to be an enemy of his people so he says he's croat...

The only reason he is Serb Orthodox is because there is no Cro Orthodox church! To be Orthodox by religion in the balkans automatically see's you as being Serbian, because the Orthodox Serb church has so much political strength... So Dado might well be a Croatian but Orthodox by religion..and as stated considering Serbian orthodox has the monopoly over that arm of christianity he can't be anythign else... but i spoke to Dado once...and he is a true Croat even rattled off some funy anti-serb jokes! ROB.

It's not true that if you're Orthodox on Balkans you're automatically Serb. This is applied ONLY to the people from the Serbo-Croatian speaking area, which includes Serbs(Orthodox), Croats(Catholics) and Bosnians(Muslims), and it's a logical division how these South Slavic peoples are split, which is - by the religion. The language they speak is same, and they have almost same mentality. Why Prso rejected his serbian ethnicity (Orthodox) and accepted the one of the majority in his living area (Catholic) is his personal thing. Most likely that's because of the hatred that croatian nationalists were spreading against anyone who's not a 'Croat' in the past, which was also the reason why many people of Dalmatia, like Dado Prso, chenged their religion and nationality from Othodox to Catholic. The Shtokavian dialect (the basis of Serbo-Croatian language) that these people, who are the majority of Dalmatians speak is a proof that they're closely related to the other Shtokavian speaking people, which are the peoples in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro. Those are the facts; everything else, including every offense sent to the author of this text is a worthless product of an insane mind. Zivili! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.132.111 (talk) 04:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

• He is Serbian Orthodox but declares him Croat because if he declares himself Serb he will be hated in Croatia. His uncle Milivoje is Serb, living in Serbia. His cousin Milan is playing for U-21 FK Red Star and is Serb. Miladin, Milivoje, Milan are predominantly Serb names. --Nexm0d

• • Are you sure you're not just projecting some of your own personal opinions - perhaps biases - of Croatians' attitudes to Serbs here as a justification? It strikes me that saying 'he does X because in my opinion he thinks Y' isn't a very compelling argument. If Dado Prso says he's Croat, he's Croat - or can you name a better source than the man himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.254.89.228 (talk) 10:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)