Talk:Democratic Party (United States)

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"Socially liberal and progressive platform"

Am I the only one that thinks that a "socially liberal" and "progressive" platform is too far to the Left of the actual Democratic Party? Aren't they more moderate?--Drdak (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much. —Designate (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Nope, because they are regarded as a center-left party, and both of those are mainstream center-left. They also have a 'Third Way'/centrist faction, although socialist parties utilize so-called 'Third Way' ideas as well. Toa Nidhiki05 22:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Last time I checked, workfare (touted by Billy Clinton) is centrist if not to the right.--Drdak (talk) 04:43, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Last I checked, the Democratic Party is a social liberal party. Social liberalism is center-left. Toa Nidhiki05 12:42, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

It is not for us, whether based on good intention or our own biases, to determine what is or is not center-left. It's an inherently subjective term. We report only what sources say, not based on our own judgements. There are three reputable sources that say center-left, or something similar. If anyone wants to question that, please find other reputable sources that say differently, and represent that viewpoint as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.65.34.50 (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

This isn't about centre-left, it's about labeling the party as "socially liberal and progressive" instead of "moderate and socially liberal" or something along those lines.--Drdak (talk) 17:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, it is important to remember that "social liberalism" is regarded as a centrist ideology in many places, and many centre-right parties have social liberal factions (Ulster Unionists, National Coalition (Finland), Christian Democrats (Norway), etc., etc.). Progressivism is defined herein as "American progressivism" which is somewhat separate from the global use of the term. However, it is largely accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vt1947 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I just simply do not see how social liberal factions such as the Progressive Caucus are majority components of the party. The conservative faction of the Democratic Party is nearly as large as the progressive one. It would make more sense to call it "progressive and Third Way oriented". The Green Party is a much more socially liberal party.--Drdak (talk) 21:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Toa Nidhiki05 insists that they are center-left, in defiance of almost every vote taken in the Congress and in most state legislatures. Combine that with the (easily-refuted) argument that social liberalism is center-left (again, in defiance of the evidence globally), and, Voila! you have made the Blue Dogs and other more outright reactionaries disappear! Not only the Greens, but even elements of the Libertarian Party, are far more socially liberal than the majority of the Democrats (especially if a reactionary policy can be disguised as "protecting" children or women.--Orange Mike | Talk 21:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Complete rewrite.

This article shows how multiple argumentative rewrites can lead to a total mish-mash. As a political scientists, I would recommend starting from scratch, from an expert on American political development, and start from there. It reads really silly right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.158.210 (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

How about making some specific suggestions for improvement, then? --Orange Mike | Talk 19:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

And as far as the "social liberal" thing goes, it confuses the reader more than helps. I'm a political scientists, and I've never heard that used before. Social Democrat, yes. Social liberal-- neologism. Just leave it out! It's an encyclopedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.213.158.210 (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

A scientists? Really? What on earth is your sub-field, that you've never encountered the term social liberalism? It's certainly not a neologism, being attested well back into the early to mid-19th century!!!!! --Orange Mike | Talk 19:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Political Position

There has been various revisions as of late of the party's political orientation. An RfC has been placed to deal with this. What is the Democratic Party's political position in relation to the American public (not necessarily the voting population nor the International community)? Drdak (talk) 17:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Votes

• Centre to Centre-Left - The Dems tend to have a variety of views, as shown by the Congressional Progressive Caucus (Centre-left) and the Blue Dog Democrats coalition (Centre to Centre-right). Barack Obama and Bill Clinton are proof that New Democrats (centrists) and Third Way adherents really dominate the party at the national level.--Drdak (talk) 17:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center-left - Three sources indicate center-left, and the Congressional Progressive Caucus is the largest in the Democrat Party, and it is left in the US. Center-left accurately defines them on a national scale, as they have both left and centrist elements. If this were on an international scale (which we don't use 99% of the time), it would probably be 'center-center-left', but not in the US political spectrum. Toa Nidhiki05 17:53, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center-left – Referring many sources including Thomas Magstadt's Understanding Politics I'd go for center-left. — Bill william compton^Talk 18:22, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center-right to Center-left. Have none of you actually spent any time monitoring the activities of your state legislators? There are Democrats who head their state's ALEC groups, for crying out loud! --Orange Mike | Talk 20:24, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

@Orange - Some state Democratic parties are centrist, I'll concede (such as in Arkansas and Alabama), but this is about the national party, not the state parties. Nationally, the Dems are center-left. Toa Nidhiki05 21:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

"Centrist"? ALEC is hardly centrist. Besides you are forgetting that the conglomeration of different state Democratic parties makes the larger, federal one. Hence, the political position of each state party does matter.--Drdak (talk) 23:16, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center-right: As the party sits in an international context, they are center right, and in many cases, are to the right of right wing parties in other countries. Many international sources discuss this. If they are not labeled this because of internationalism, describe the party as centricist, with a footnote to explain how the American definition of centre-left differs from an international definition as the changes in usage make understanding the topic difficult for people outside the United States. --LauraHale (talk) 21:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

@Laura - Read the above, Laura. This is nationally, not internationally. Toa Nidhiki05 21:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center-left - Per users Toa and Bill above. Plus the sources. Plus my own perceptions from many years of keeping abreast of US politics. --Noleander (talk) 00:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Center - I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but if the right/left axis means anything, the Democratic Party of the United States is currently in the middle of American political beliefs, if only due to the massive influence held by the Blue Dog Democrats; of course one can find a near-infinite number of sources labelling it almost anywhere on the political axis because politics is a pretty, uhm, political matter, but is there any factual support for the concept that the Blue Dog Democrats are not a major major faction or that they are in any meaningful sense "left" ? rewinn (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• Comment - This should be outright dismissed as 'center-left' is confirmed by three sources. Toa Nidhiki05 17:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yet we also have sources that label it "centrist". The most accurate thing to do is acknowledge both.--Drdak (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

DLC link does not reference the Dems as centrists, and in fact calls itself 'progressive', a center-left ideology. How exactly does this confirm your claim when they call themselves 'progressive'? Also, the On The Issues source calls them 'liberal', not centrist to center-left. Toa Nidhiki05 19:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Well yes that is true. However, the Republican Party is labeled "Hard-Core Conservative" by On The Issues, which I take to mean centre-right. Hence "populist-leaning liberal" really is more of a mix of centrism and centre-left.--Drdak (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

When we say "hard-core conservative" in the U.S., there is no namby-pamby "center" to it; we mean genuinely reactionary, even if not in the old, monarchist sense of the term. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Conservatism =/= reactionary philosophy however. Hardcore-conservatism just means really conservative (really favors the status quo/existing hierarchies). Conservatism does not extend to the far-right just as liberalism and progressivism does not extend to the far-left.--Drdak (talk) 16:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstood me; nowadays, what we call "hardcore conservative" in the U.S. is actually not conservative as understood by a Russell Kirk or Barry Goldwater at all ("favors the status quo/existing hierarchies", as you put it), but full-blown reactionary, seeking to turn back the clock to the 19th or in some cases the 18th or 17th centuries. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:41, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The Article on the Third Way by the DLC goes on to explain how Democrats such as Bill Clinton and other leaders are leading a seemingly 'centrist revolution'. It focuses on the Democratic Party.--Drdak (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That's OR and you know it, Drdak. We go by what sources say, not how you interpret it.

A self-published source by a political organization is not reliable to decide political ideology, period. We have three scholarly journals calling the Dems 'center-left', and you have given one self-published source calling it 'progressive'. That is not by any means conclusive in your favor, but rather supportive towards center-left. Toa Nidhiki05 01:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

New Democrat policies transcend the stale left-right debate and define a Third Way for governing based on progressive ideas, mainstream values, and innovative solutions that reflect changing times.

The Democratic Leadership Council, and its affiliated think tank the Progressive Policy Institute, have been catalysts for modernizing politics and government. From their political analysis and policy innovations has emerged a progressive alternative to the worn-out dogmas of traditional liberalism and conservatism. The core principles and ideas of this "Third Way" movement are set forth in The New Progressive Declaration: A Political Philosophy for the Information Age."'

Starting with Bill Clinton's Presidential campaign in 1992, Third Way thinking is reshaping progressive politics throughout the world. Inspired by the example of Clinton and the New Democrats, Tony Blair in Britain led a revitalized New Labour party back to power in 1997. The victory of Gerhard Shroeder and the Social Democrats in Germany the next year confirmed the revival of center-left parties which either control or are part of the governing coalition forming throughout the European Union. From Latin America to Australia and New Zealand, Third Way ideas also are taking hold.

Just a couple of quotes referring to 'progressivism'. Toa Nidhiki05 01:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Those quotes are from the DLC and its thinktank, which try desperately to mask their inherent conservatism with the use of the buzzword "progressive"; just as the Blairites did. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - Has anyone bothered to check the party website to see what they say they are.????? you sure they are not the left of the right. I personally thought they were the left wing, normally known as left of the centre. I don't believe you can be centre. I also don't believe we have a right of centre wing as they are blatently a fashist party (or the left of the right) would be running it mascurading under political jargon. I do believe that these are the right of the left. call it what it is and go by policies and what it does. I think you can see by whose running it what they are Delighted eyes (talk) 14:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a note the left of the left is a communist but some people would say a communist is just a severeer right that occurs after a dictator. but personally am still socialist hoping this is the best way to marxism. have checked y membership card and in my family tree some of them think my dads the bottom of the top or the top of the bottom. either way he is definately the fat one that won't let us have any food at all. that speaks for itsself. Delighted eyes (talk) 14:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - This is kind of silly, since one can find sources using pretty much whichever descriptor one personally prefers. In the grand scheme of Western democracies, the Democratic Party is probably best described as center-right. In American politics, the Party is generally viewed as liberal/progressive, whereas the Republican Party is viewed as conservative. It may be best to shy away from blanket descriptors of the Party (which is, after all, somewhat heterogenous), and instead use the language (currently in the lead) describing the Party's official platform as socially liberal and progressive. MastCell ^Talk 17:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - i think this article has a strange bias to it. it doesnt seem to make clear that these other parties liberals etc. are not the democrats. I just dont understand what its tryig to say. They must be other parties and so should be on another page. I think this article is misleading for the public. I personally from wales, uk am well confused as to what is going on with part of the article. it is rediculous saying there are left left and centre left people in it its what the policies they agree together are that counts. (although personally i feel the left wing must be the right wing as the right wing are blatently fashist(severe right) in their stance) policies. Delighted eyes (talk) 13:36, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - i personally laugh at people who think there is a centre and that you can be it. the centre must be a 'sat on the fence' person, undecided. you simply can't be both. you can't have your cake and eat it, you can't for example be a selfish greedy toff and not one at the same time, you can only be the other one and then the other. you can only be left of it then right of it but you can't be both at once. I hope you understand what I'm saying. another example being your still a racist if you just don't like the brunette one, no one would say oh hes only half a racist cause he doesn't mind the rest. The same if he decides he just hates the black one,and tortures a few under the guise of just being a disadvantaged hater. another example you can't love them if you torture them. you simply can't be centre but you can be as close to the fence as you feel safe Delighted eyes (talk) 13:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Tally of Votes

Other	Centrism	Centre to Centre-Left	Centre-Left
LauraHale	rewinn	drDAK	TN05
N/A	OrangeMike (center-right to center-left)	N/A	Bill william compton
N/A	N/A	N/A	Noleander

Resolutions

• Center to Center-left - In the end, the United States Democratic Party has taken a centrist turn in the past few decades, as outlined by many scholarly sources. Democrats since the 1990's have been widely supportive of workfare over non-workbased welfare (King and Wickham-Jones 1999) as well as other pro-business causes (Miller and Schofield 2008). It has also become quite clear that the majority of editors are not comfortable with the use of 'center-left' to describe the Democratic Party. However, a significant number are comfortable with 'center-left'. Hence, the only sensible compromise is the descriptor "Centre to Center-left". I move to make this the position in the article. Does anyone second this?--Drdak (talk) 02:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Center-left - First off, comments made in October of 2011 clearly have no bearing in current discussion. That's pretty obvious. Second, we don't run by what we proclaim, we run by sources, and two academic sources RSes describe the DP as 'center-left' and another as 'liberal', a form of center-left ideology. Moving to change is absurd as there are three academic sources defining as center-left. Pushing any other sort of view is simply nothing but POV-pushing, plain and simple. Toa Nidhiki05 02:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Democrat; Drop the 'ic'

Drop the 'ic'. the name is "Democrat" instead of democratic. Probably because the courts say attempting to copyright an actual word in the English language fails. Any way, misspelling a major political party's name looks foolish. I know they misspell the name in the newspapers, magazines, and on t.v. all the time but this is something you can edit to be correct yes?--Spike (talk) 20:21, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't know who's been lying to you, but there is no such entity as the "Democrat Party" in the United States. And your remark about copyright is simply gibberish. We're certainly not going to make all our articles incorrect because of something you were misinformed about somewhere. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:33, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

It's the DemocratIC party, and the members are Democrats. CTJF83 23:00, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I second Orange Mike. I have no idea who's been telling you the party is named that or that there is any sort of legal threat against what it chooses to name itself. The proper name ("Democratic Party") stays.--Drdak (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion

Change political position to "right to far right". The democrat party is a reacionary, bourgioisie party that is in bed with corporations. How is this "left" or "progressive"? Communist93 (talk) 21:23, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

They are left compared to the republican party. CTJF83 22:58, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Social liberalism is center-left on the global scale. Communism is not center-left, it is far left. The center-left is much closer to the 'corporations' and 'bourgouisie' because they are willing to work within capitalism (see social capitalism) and democracy (see social democracy and progressivism). Add to that American politics lack a legitimate socialist party and the Dems are center-left in the American spectrum. Toa Nidhiki05 01:14, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Capitalism is a far right religion that is used to oppress the proletariat. 71.204.179.212 (talk) 04:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Communism is not a reliable source. Toa Nidhiki05 11:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Capitalism is no more reliable. 71.204.179.212 (talk) 16:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a POV soapbox proposal by an editor clearly opposed to capitalism who wants to label the Democratic Party in a clearly negative manner, by saying it is "in bed with corporations". The ideology of liberalism that the Democratic Party supports is historically acknowledged as left-of-centre, though not as left-wing as radical forms of socialism. As can be seen by the bickering in this section, this proposal is all about a politically partisan grudge, not a NPOV proposal backed up by reliable citations.--R-41 (talk) 17:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Mistake in the Jewish American section

The section mistakenly lists Las Vegas as a state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.0.48.209 (talk) 05:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

no it's correct --"in large cities within Presidential Swing States such as Philadelphia, Miami, and Las Vegas." Rjensen (talk) 01:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Attention to the previous comment guys. Las Vegas is listed as a state in part of the article. When will you correct it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.27.138.179 (talk) 05:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Repeating Rjensen's reply, it is correct. Large cities within Presidential Swing States such as Philadelphia, Miami, and Las Vegas. does NOT say that Las Vegas is a state, it says that Las Vegas is a large city which is in turn within a Presidential Swing State. --Khajidha (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to remove historical political positions and historical factions from infobox

Aside from this article and the article on the Republican Party, no other infobox on political parties shows a list of historical positions and historical factions, only the positions that a party currently holds. I propose that this infobox be the same as others. Information on historical positions and factions can be placed in the history section of the Democratic Party in this the article.--R-41 (talk) 17:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. CTJF83 18:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Strong Agree - Historical info of that sort doesn't seem like infobox material; the "History" section should suffice. rewinn (talk) 22:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

After looking again at the article, I'm changing this to strong agree because the historical summary in the infobox is misleadingly simple; it excludes dozens of issues and gives undue weight to paleoconservativism. Proponents for retention should tell us how many historical issues should go into the infobox, and how they would be chosen. rewinn (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

disagree - it's useful compact information. Rjensen (talk) 01:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

May I disagree about that? Currently the "historical positions" are four, and not the most important four, e.g. no mention of slavery. How many positions should be in the infobox, and how to choose among them? rewinn (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

disagree - useful, parallels Republican counterpart -- Jo3sampl (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The obvious solution is to remove it from the Republican counterpart as well, or else add it to all the other parties. rewinn (talk) 05:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree - The modern Democratic Party espouses views radically different from those when it started, or even 100 years ago. The historical section allows the reader to realize, in a practical manner, what the party believes in now and what it used to believe in. Toa Nidhiki05 23:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

That's not an argument for inclusion in the Infobox; that's an argument for having an historical section. The infobox cannot summarize the major positions held by organizations over 150 years old "in a practical manner". If you think otherwise, then make a principled case for the four items there now. rewinn (talk) 01:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I already have. Did you not hear it? Toa Nidhiki05 01:20, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

No, my friend. You made an argument for an historical section and not for the inclusion in an infobox of only four out of dozens of issues, and not necessarily the most important four. Did you not hear your own argument? rewinn (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe you understand that I was referring to the historical section of the infobox. Toa Nidhiki05 03:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree Proper historical perspective needs to be taken into consideration, and an infobox isn't a good means of summarizing that sort of info. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:51, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Reference No. 86 Not Displaying

This reference (86) entry is broken, and appears as big red letters that read:"Cite error: Invalid (ref) tag; no text was provided for refs named CNS; see Help:Cite errors/Cite error references no text." 74.132.249.206 (talk) 02:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.249.206 (talk) 02:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay well I kinda messed that comment up. Not sure how. Anyway, yeah, number 86 displays wrong. 74.132.249.206 (talk) 02:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Found it, fixed it. Thanks! --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 06:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Comparitive College Education?

I noticed there's a section on college education, but it would be interesting to see how that breaks down for minority voters, white voters, ect. vs the equivalent in the Republican party, as its kind of an apples to oranges and very broad strokes perspective. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)