Talk:Demographic history of Macedonia

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Aegean/Greek Macedonia -> 51%

Dear Xelet (who art mirroring my name), you are requesting sources for the fact which is one of the few things that are not in dispute. There is a unanimous acceptance from all sources that Aegean/Greek Macedonia is 51% of the geographical region [1] [2]. Of course, I just know that you are reverting for the sake of wikistalking, and you have being doing this to a number of users, I strongly believe that you will earn you a hard ban from all articles, not just Rajput. I hope this has been clear enough, Mr Singh. --Telex 10:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Macedonian Reunification

Macedonia no longer poses a threat to Europe - Alexander has been dead for over 1000 years! Wake up Europe - look at Germany. The occupiers Bulgaria and Greece need to hand back Macedonian soil so that Macedonia can become complete again. Only then will the country be able to move forward. Until then, Greece and Bulgaria are simply going to have a humanitarian problem on their doorstep that won't go away - and could simply make matters worse (destabilise region).BluePanther (talk) 05:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

95% of Real Macedonia is in Greece

The Real Macedonia:

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/regions1.html

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa3.jpg

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Maps/mapSeq_Map01.html

http://crystalinks.com/mapgreeceancient.gif

The Dardanians, Paeonians, and Illyrians are shown below, and those are the ancient inhabitants of the Fyrom area....NOT ancient Macedonians:

http://www.soros.org.mk/archive/G01/A01/as0106.htm

http://www.unet.com.mk/oldmacedonianmaps/stmapi/mapa4.jpg

69.234.160.42 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)Phil Hellene

No you wrong . Most , certainly, but not 95 % . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 09:16, 26 July 2007

Error- sclavinas

For some reason, this article, and the other macedonian articles wrongly state that the slavic invaders that occupied the macedonian region were 'expelled'. (likely because it is the same author)

This is simply wrong. If the slavs were expelled by the Byszantines, then there would be no Macedonians, Bulgrains and slavophone Greeks today ! Yes, many were expelled, and they were pacifieed, but MOST remained in the area, albeit under Byzantine rule

You cannot just make huge errors like that. It falsifies history

I corrected it Hxseek 09:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

And your unsourced opinions have been reverted. Please take the time while you're blocked to read WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:3RR. Thanks. --Ronz 18:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Medieval history error

I would again like to highlight an error and inconsitenct in the above section.

Pertaining to the slavs " They (the slavs) invaded Macedonia and reached as far south as Thessaly and the Peloponnese, settling in isolated regions that were called by the Byzantines Sclavinias, until they got gradually eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors."

This must be a typing error, becuase it does not make sense. A great number of the sieging slavs were pacified and made to serve in the Byzantine army, but they were certainly not all expelled, as what the above paragraph makes out happened. Not only is this incorrect, but it is self contradictory- as the rest of the paragraph continues to discuss about how the slavs continued to raid with Bulgars, etc

The paragraph should be corrected. Eg the wiki article on history of Macedonia region is more correct:

"In the late 7th century Justinian II organized a massive expeditions against the Sklaviniai of the Greek peninsula, in which he reportedly captured over 110,000 Slavs and transferred them to Cappadocia. By the time of Constans II (who also organized campaigns against the Slavs), the significant number of the Slavs of Macedonia were captured and transferred to central Asia Minor where they were forced to recognize the authority of the Byzantine emperor and serve in its ranks. There are no Byzantine records of "Sklavines" after 836/837 as they were absorbed into the expanding Slavic First Bulgarian Empire. Slavic influence in the region strengthened along with the rise of this state, which incorporated parts of the region to its domain in 837 AD. "

Hxseek 22:43, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Fringe viewpoint?

" During this period it has been claimed by Macedonian scolars that there exist large and oppressed ethnic Macedonian minorities in the region of Macedonia, located in neighboring states. Because of those claims, irredentist proposals are being made calling for the expansion of the borders of the Republic of Macedonia to encompass the territories allegedly populated with ethnic Macedonians. The population of the neighboring regions is presented as "subdued" to the propaganda of the governments of those neighbouring countries, and in need their incorporation into a United Macedonia."

This article should more explicitly state that the above idea represents the view of a FEW, FRINGE macedonian ultra-nationalists. As it is above, it is as if the whole RoM is actively preparing for invasion ! THis smells of Greek scare-mongering as if to justofy their denial of Macedonian self-sovereignity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek (talk • contribs) 01:44, 4 August 2007

Please back your assertions and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK when doing so. Thanks! --Ronz 03:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not have to back a claim which denies rediculous accusations Hxseek 03:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not if you don't mind being ignored and possibly blocked you don't. --Ronz 04:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, block me. Allow such controversial, blanket, unsourced statements like the one above to be presented as matter of fact, yet you claim I am POV and I need to back my objection to it ! ? Do you even understand what you are saying?

This is unjust, this is not academic. This is not what one would expect from 'scholars'. Shameful Hxseek 15:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:CHILLOUT --Ronz 15:49, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes OK. Do not offend me with your own ignorance, do try to be impartial.

I think there is an overkill with the whole irrednetism claim about Macedonians, in all these articles. While certainly worth mentioning from a historical perspective, some keep refering to it as an excuse of why RoM should not be recognised.

This is just an outdated hangover from 1950s communist era, held onto by some because they lack any real arguements. Hxseek 03:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Problematic statement about Slavs in Byzantine armies

I've removed the following sentence from the section about the arrival of the Slavs:

Many were eliminated by the Byzantine Emperors - as many as 200,000 were made to serve in the Byzantine army in Anatolia.

This seems dubious to me - I don't doubt that Slavs were employed in the Byzantine armies; in fact, according to our existing Sclaveni article they were systematically employed as military settlers too. But the sentence insinuates that this employment was a means to exterminate them? This seems odd, without a source. I've replaced the sentence with something more neutral, for the time being. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think up 200, 000 were removed, some of which then served in the army. Hxseek 11:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed re-format

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Slavic.2C_Bulgar_and_Avar_invasions section, hilst certainly very informative, reads a little laboured. I think it tries too cram too much info about too many things, eg Aromanians, AVaras, Tirks, Slavs. I propose that we break it down into sub sections, whilst keeping the essence of what is said intact Hxseek 02:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You are all insane

Sorry but,this article is all but the text for somme encyclopedia.How is possible those shits to be placed in Wikipedia.How you can argue about history and demography of some nation?Did somebody here ask himself about origins or demography of nowadays Greeks or Bulgars.For example Greeeks are totaly artificial nation.In 1821 in Morea(Pelloponesus) 50% of population can't understand modern greek language.About Bulgarian-this term in 19 centurie mean ortodox slavic christian in Balkans.See the census from 1911 in Ottoman empire:in villaet of Kosovo-there is no Serbs but 500.000 Bulgarians.This article is pure shauvinistic propaganda against Macedonian people and I think if wikipedia want to be serious encyclopedia,then articles like this are not needed.This is pure political shauvinistic propaganda against one whole people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.125.185.179 (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is about the Region, NOT the republic of Macedonia. Where are the stats? Kosovo was not the modern Kosovo . Скопие Skopie (Ottoman/Albanian Ushkub) was the provincial capital of Kosovo vilayet. Maqedan (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

MAQEDAN; I am very sorry but you are so mis-informed. Greeks and Greek history is written for 1,000's of years unlike the Skopian propaganda which has only been claimed since after WW2. I am a Greek Macedonian and am proud of my origins and history unlike the Slavs from FYROM who seem to be ashamed of their Slavic origins. YOU ARE NOT MACEDONIAN AND HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE ORIGINAL MACEDONIAN PEOPLE WHO WERE A GREEK TRIBE. This is proven by the fact that in the empires of BACTRIA, PTOLEMY IN EGYPT, SELEUCID, etc there is only the GREEK language and writing, not slavic/cyrillic. As a matter of fact, these languages did not even exist at the time. After this under the Romans, the Byzantines and whatever other occupying power at the time, the language used and the people in this area were Greeks. As a matter of fact, the language which you speak today was written for you by two Greek priest Cyril & Mythodius from Thessaloniki. Yes a Greek city from times of antiquity which was first controlled by Olynthos & then by Macedonian Greeks. YOU CAN NOT CHANGE THIS FACT. I understand it is hard to identify with any other nationality because of your academics propaganda over the last 60 years but please do not insult yourself any further and grow a brain. Read as many books from as many independent writers as possible and make your own call rather than being so closed minded. 95% of the historian and writers could not possibly be wrong and all archeological items can not possibly be fabricated. As a matter of fact, i have spoken to other FYROM people who claim a conspiracy that all your ancient artifacts have been destroyed just to stop your claims. What a joke. Hellasforever (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)HELLASFOREVERHellasforever (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

THE WHOLE WORLD IS INSANE - Germany was reunified after proving it was no longer a threat to Europe. When will the Republic of Macedonia be reunified? Alexander the Great has been dead for over a millenium!!! Macedonia will have been split for 100 years in 2013 - are we still scaring our neighbours?? We no longer pose a threat to Europe, so Greece and Bulgaria hand back what doesn't belong to you.BluePanther (talk) 05:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

"Slav" changed to "Ethnic"

Administrator, I have changed "Slav Macedonian" into "Ethnic Macedonian" since we do not identify as "Slav Macedonian." Mactruth (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrator, I am also changing "Slav Macedonian" into "Ethnic Macedonian" since we do not identify as "Slav Macedonian" and due to the fact that it is very insulting. The modern nation-state is based inclusiveness without regard to tribal sentiments of ethnicity. There is a country called Macedonia and the people who live there are Macedonians. Furthermore, since evey country is a collection of different tribes, should the "Slav Macedonian" slur be restored to this page, then I will petition that all slavic country pages have like changes made, e.g. "Slav Polish" , "Slav German", "Slav Russian", "Jewish Russian", "Slav Ukrainian", "Saxon Pole", etc. If this sounds ridiculous to you, then you should understand why the term "Slav Macedonian" is so ridiculous and insulting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.242.218 (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

i think that in the article there is many times the term "ethnic Macedonian" in some paragraphs.i think that this is in order to convince the users of WP that there IS a ethnic Macedonian group while we want just to inform the users,not to make them believe something that is still under dispute.so,i ask the permission to correct it,or a user to do it.188.4.104.135 (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I am going to readd the European map. The explaination was given is not reliable. Jingby (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Changed it back again. 68.41.129.87 (talk) 03:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The first macedonian nationalists have appeared in the late 19th and early 20th century outside Macedonia. The early adherents of the macedonism were people inconsistent in his ideas. At different points in his life, most of them expressed conflicting statements about the ethnicity of the Slavs living in Macedonia, including his own nationality. They formed their pro-Macedonian conceptions after contacts with some panslavic circles in Serbia and Russia. The lack of diverse ethnic motivations seems to be confirmed by the fact that, in their works they often used the designations as Bulgaro-Macedonians, Macedonian Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs in order to name their compatriots. Jingby (talk) 06:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

German ethnic map of Central Europe from 1932

This map can't be of 1933 since it shows Greek population in Asia Minor which expeled in 1923.

1917 Rizoff Atlas

I see that at least six of the maps appearing on this page are identical to, and possibly taken from, an atlas published in Berlin in 1917, with a preface by Rizoff. Indeed, this atlas is cited as the article's reference 5.

I have recently scanned the atlas, and made it available on the web at http://www.maproom.org/00/48/index.php. The ethnographical maps, copied from various sources, plates numbers 15-30, are of particular relevance to this article.

If anyone would like to add a link to that page, please do so. I cannot do so myself because it would break Wikipedia's guidelines. Maproom (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, if anyone wants an image of any of the plates in that atlas, I can upload it at a resolution suitable for Wikipedia. Maproom (talk) 10:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Stanford's 1878 Ethnological map

I've seen you removed the Stanford's 1878 Ethnic composition map of the Balkans from the article. This map is of historical significance since upon that map the Congress of Berlin created Bulgaria as a state in 1878 and shaped her borders. I also noticed that you also removed it from any other article of wikipedia including the very article of the Berlin's Congress by saying that it is wrong. Wikipedia is not judging an historical document as it is a 1878 map as right or wrong, especially a map upon a treaty was determined. WP works with references, documents and facts, leaving the reader to judge for himself what is right and what is wrong. So if you have censuses that denying what the map is picturing in 1878, you have to put them into the articles, with the necessary references. Regards, --Factuarius (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Factuarius. I don't doubt that the map is "wrong", all such maps are imperfect and many are biassed. But the Stanford map, in particular, is important for the influence it has had. It should be kept in the article; and if there is evidence that it is seriously inaccurate, this also should have a place in the article. Maproom (talk) 08:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Jingiby

Jingiby claims "Macedonian ethnos as distinct naionality was recognized for first time by the Comintern in 1934." Oh Really?

1. The Freemanm 1921

1. Newspaper sources

1. New York legislative documents, 1921

Jingiby, it seems like all these sources are before 1934, don't you agree? And wouldn't you agree that you will ignore any evidence I show you because your views from day 1 of Wikipedia is "Macedonians are Bulgarians, communism converted them." Mactruth (talk) 07:15, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, most sources don't state "Macedonian Slav" do they? Mactruth (talk) 07:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

We need a document as official act of recognition by international political organization or independent state, and reliable secondary source, but not a cuttings from newspapers. Народот кој што од Новиот Завет па до К.П. Мисирков не може да наведе еден институционален процес за својот континуитет; народот кој што од Османлиската Империја никогаш не побарал да му даде посебен Македонски милет; (Власите последни во 1905 година бараат од султанот Влашки милет и тоа им е дадено); народот кој што првпат некаква институција (Коминтерната) го има признаено во 1934 година; народот кој што својата прва книга поезија на сопствен македонски јазик ја има издадено 1938 година, а својот прв роман 1951 година, одеднаш претендира да биде најстар. Затоа, молам за малку скромност!

Also, do not forgive that according to Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 Edition Macedonians constituted the majority of the population in the whole region of Macedonia, then part of the Ottoman Empire, but Macedonians (Bulgarians)!

Look also here: [3]; [4]; [5] Jingby (talk)

Well, you have the look at the situation at the time. Bulgarians were claiming Macedonians, Greeks were claiming Macedonians, Serbs were claiming Macedonians. The point I am trying to make is it was very difficult for international bodies to comprehend what the true situation was because all claimed Macedonians, and hence a part of Macedonia. Different sources supported all claims, hence the frustration with Wikipedia (political selection of sources to fit the current boarders).

The point I am trying to make is there were people in Macedonia claiming to be simply Macedonian at the time when Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs were claiming them. There is a wealth of newspapers, books, and articles separating Bulgarians and Macedonians as distinct, many showing direct statements from the Macedonians at the time.Simply because Macedonians were sympathetic towards Bulgaria for their help does not make them Bulgarian.

An example would be the Polish-Lithuania empire, or the Hungarian-Austrian empire. Poles do not claim Lithuania as theirs simply because they worked together in the past, same goes with the Hungarians.

Do I deny there were Bulgarians in Macedonia? Of course not! Do I agree that Macedonians and Bulgarians worked as a team before ww2? Of course! But, do I agree that Macedonians = Bulgarians? No. Religion played a big part in why many Macedonians declared themselves Bulgarian. "If you are in the Greek Orthodox Church, you were Greek" was the mentality caused by the Ottoman Empire. Same goes with the other churches, and at the time the most-fulfilling church was the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, since Macedonian and Bulgarian were both Slavic. Mactruth (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

for example: Conquest how societies overwhelm others page 41 Mactruth (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice. But still the article deals mostly with the time when there was no ethnic Macedonian consciousness. The term Macedonian Slavs (meaning Slavs from Macedonia, by the way) is used to denote the population from the Slav ethno-linguistic group, inhabiting the geographical region. Any nationalistic sentiments are therefore omitted by using the NPOV term Macedonian Slavs (meaning Slavs from the region of Macedonia). They are not called Bulgarians or Serbs, but not ethnic Macedonians since they did not self-identify as such. Any further disruptive behaviour might as well look nationalistic, as much as you don't like it. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 20:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Slav of Macedonia = Macedonian, a separate identity. I believe the documentation of ethnic Macedonian consciousness can cover a lot of the article that is currently stated as "Macedonian Slavs." Ethnic Macedonian consciousness has been documented since at least the 17th century, which covers a lot of the emergence of nationalism in Ottoman Empire:

Read the articles

Books on Macedonian Migration 1905 to 1918

1793 Daniil of Moschopolis' lexicon

1751 D. Ludovici Martini Kahlii

1851 Visit to Belgrade

Australian articles 1884

1822 Geographical dictionary

1846 Georgi Makedonski

1820 Travels

1824 Brittanica

1823 European Magazine

1876 Revista

1876 Macedonia and Macedonians

1700s Russian documents

1630 Fimiliar Letters

As you can see from a few of these articles, Macedonians are ALWAYS distinguished from the Greeks and Bulgarians. Also, the authors do not call the Macedonians "Slav Macedonians", but simply "Macedonians". This WP article needs to change how it names people for them Mactruth (talk) 00:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Kitsof (talk) 15:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)These links do not prove anything.As you can clearly see from the wikipedia link of a page of Daniel Moscopolite's book the term βουλγάρικα,bulgarian,is used and not μακεδονικά,macedonian.The author of languages of the world translated the word βουλγάρικα,bulgarian as macedonian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitsof (talk • contribs) 15:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I will wait for a reply considering I am "under review" from Sthenel, before editing the page. Mactruth (talk) 00:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You mean before continuing with the disruptive behaviour. The article as it is is informative. Changing it according to your POV serves your POV only. There is a difference between Slavs in Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians, whether you like it or not. Plus, don't bombard us with nationalistic sites, we're not interested in them. Oh, an, please, spare us the ethnic (tatar) slurs. I believe you've been blocked for such behaviour before. --Laveol ^T 00:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Jingiby, if you want to differentiate between the Slavs of Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians, then all you have to do is use the correct wording. We do not call ourselves Slav Macedonians, in fact we see that as an ethnic slur. It is quite entertaining that you warn me of such things, then continue to do the same. I guess the sources are all POV correct? Because they don't show Macedonians = Bulgarians, is that it? Mactruth (talk) 03:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

As to the ethnic slur Macedonian Slavs [sic]?!? read the section in this article, which you, I am shure, ever read: Development of the name Macedonian Slavs. I offer you, to read also another section from the same article, which you, never read, too: The missing national consciousness. Please, provide a reliable, third-party published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy about the official recognition of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity from international organization or independent state before 1934. Thank you. Jingby (talk) 07:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Misleading map

Wrong map of Pirin Macedonia

Pirin Macedonia

The shown on the right map of Pirin Macedonia presently used in the article is misleading, and I am removing it.

The errors in that region's borders that should be fixed are explained in detail in the talk page File talk:Pirin macedonia map.png. Apcbg (talk) 17:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

    Instead of removing the map, it would be better to correct it. Or, if you do not have the tools to correct it, I can create a corrected version in accordance with your description. I have no knowledge or opinions of Pirin, but I can do what you say. Maproom (talk) 21:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

        It would be nice if you could fix the map, just remove the three northernmost districts, and add the adjacent northeastern one; see also the map of Pirin Macedonia on the left. Best, Apcbg (talk) 19:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have made the changes you requested. For reasons I don't understand, it takes some time for an edit to an image to propagate back to wikipedia pages and become effective. I am a bit hesitant about making this particular edit, it seems harmless enough, but you will be aware from some of the discussions above that maps of the Balkans can arouse strong feelings, and I don't want to offend anyone when I know nothing about the significance of the changes I am making. By the way - to indent a piece of talk like this, colons ":" work well. Maproom (talk) 21:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Maproom! The corrected map is now back in the article; as for the colons, I've been using them for years now :-) but they seem not to work next to an image. Apcbg (talk) 04:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

refimprove tag

I happened to notice the removal of the {{Refimprove|date=January 2010}} tag. This one actually makes sense because there are a several consecutive sections in this article that have either no or very few references. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I was the one that removed it. I undid all edits from that anon since he was just spamming tags all over a ton of articles. You're welcome to add it again. --Laveol ^T 12:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Article is too long

I think you should split this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.107.130.111 (talk) 14:02, 25 November 2011 (UTC)