Talk:Diethylstilbestrol

DES needs to be identified as a teratogen and a cross-link made to that term.

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Identified DES as teratogen and linked to Wikipedia article on term.BuckRose 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Disambig

Please see Talk:DES for a discussion related to this article. Peyna 16:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The cases mentioned of 3rd generation damage (cerebral palsy en 'a rare form of cancer' 'being linked to des exposure' are completely spurious; if millions of people have been exposed many rare to very rare things will happen in many offspring without any causal link. I move to strike these examples or at least include a modifier such as 'some people have seen this as linked to' and not make statements about such cases unless there is credible evidence that it is not coincidental - with a reference to the relevant scientific article evanherk

→There have been studies linking DES to transgenderism in kids born from mothers that had DES prescribed. I'm surprised nothing has been mentioned on the subject. If I can find the actual studies (I just read about them in "The Riddle of Gender" by Deborah Rudacille), I'll add to the page and link them. Of course, if anyone beats me to it, I won't cry about stealing my thunder.Jediryan22 20:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

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The studies you're looking for are:

• "The Biology of Human Psychosexual Differentiation" by L. Gooren (Hormones and Behavior 50 (2006) 589-601), and
• "The Endocrinology of Transsexualism : a review and commentary" by L. Gooren (Psychoneuroendocrinology 15(1), 3-14)

The relevant quotes from the former: "In male fetuses prenatal exposure to progestins and/or estrogens may have suppressed their endogenous testosterone production by the powerful negative feedback action on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (Gooren, 1990)." and "Several follow up studies of prenatal exposure to DES and/or progestin in Men have indeed found them to display a degree of nonconformity in stereotyped gender behavior, but a clear-cut effect on sexual orientation or gender identity has not been established (Gooren, 1990.)"

So Gooren mentions a link between DES and non-stereotypical gender behavior, but stops short of linking DES exposure and transsexualism.

However, a letter in the journal Nature (378, 68 - 70 (02 November 1995); doi:10.1038/378068a0) from Zhou, et al. states, "Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones."

And one of the authors of that letter published a paper entitled "Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation" in Gynecological Endocrinology (19 301–312; doi:10.1080/09513590400018231) indicating, "Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural differences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation."

Some might criticize a statement of the form "DES exposure causes male to female transsexualism," but the literature seems to support a statement like "though further studies are called for, research suggests a relation." The argument that Endocrine Disruptors (EDs) cause transsexualism is a sensitive subject for members of the transgender community, so we may even want to call attention to the debate. Meadhbh.siobhan 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Image of molecular structure

Why is there the unusual abreviation "Me" for methyl in the structure? In my opinion, deleting the word "Me" from the picture would make it less confusing. Icek 19:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

• With apologizes to Shakespeare: To "Me" or not to "Me"? That is the question. ;-) "Me" or "CH₃" is a standard and widely used organic abbreviation for a methyl group. Some organic chemists prefer brevity and would leave it out while others (like myself) prefer to include it for completeness (to remove any possible confusion that the end of the stick might represent a hydrogen atom). For an encyclopedic entry, including "Me" in structure diagrams in my opinion is very appropriate. Boghog2 15:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Although Me is common, I think CH3 or a simple continuation of the line would be preferable. I don't think there is any question that an unlabeled 'end of the stick' means CH3 and not H. You see this all over, including on 90% of structural images on wikipedia. A bigger issue I have is that the Me's and OH's appear oversized and with letters overlapping each other for me in both Firefox 3.0 and Internet Explorer 8.0. Is this just me and how can it be fixed? 24.240.34.174 (talk) 05:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The .svg image does not display properly for me either, so I have replaced it (with one without the "Me") which should address both concerns. -- Ed (Edgar181) 13:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

"Much more expensive"

I've just removed two instances where the replacement of DES with another drug contained the phrase "much more expensive". Not only is this not supported via reliable sources (and prices likely differed from country to country, so there's a big bias problem there - the US is not the world), it could also lead readers to assume that the only reason the drug was replaced was so that the manufacturers could make more money. This even though both replacements caused fewer side effects and were far more effective. I will assume good faith and not assume the addition was part of a WP:FRINGE anti-science scare tactics campaign, but without actual sourcing as to the specific cost of DES and tamoxifen at the time tamoxifen was introduced casual readers might assume that as well, which would not put Wikipedia in a good light. --NellieBly (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

"DES Sons"

Going to be adding some additional research on DES sons. Since the initial text under the "Des Son" section focused almost exclusively on trans-gender issues, an issue that seems to be negligible in (secondary) research, I have reduced the text accordingly. For example, des exposure in males is much more associated with reduced visual/spatial cognition and depression. Witch Hazzel (talk) 16:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that rather than "reduce the text accordingly" you consider what other items should be added. As the principal researcher on the full range of issues affecting DES sons (for over 15 years) I believe this issue of gender variance in DES-exposed males is a huge issue, not one that needs to be reduced.

Scott Kerlin, DES Sons International Network

(SK) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docscott123 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

That amounts to original research and violates wikipedia's editorial rules, see link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

You're going to have to use secondary sources or a meta study Witch Hazzel (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Have amended the article's first sentence

Diethylstilbestrol is not, and by accounts has never been, spelt "diethylstilboestrol" in British English. The current BAN (British Approved Name) is diethylstilbestrol to match the rINN, and the former BAN is stilboestrol (ie, without the diethyl prefix). Source: http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulate/Medicines/Namingofmedicines/ChangestomedicinesnamesBANstorINNs/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.204.9 (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)