Talk:Dolma

Comments

malfoof should be under here

malfoof is under 'cabbage roll' but it's also prepared through using grape leaves in Jordanian and Lebanese cuizine and possibly other Arabic speaking middle eastern countries. Mabye malfoof should also be mentioned in this article or mabye given its own article in itself? American-Jordanian and American-Lebanese peoples have used cabbage more often when in the United States, most likeley due inability to access grape leaves.

Cyprus

In Cyprus this food is called Koupepin, Κουπέπιν, which comes from Arabic kubeba and NOT Dolma or Ντολμάς. Could this be an arabic dish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhiteMagick (talk • contribs) 20:20, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment

I dont know how to use arabic text, so will someone do me the favor of adding waraq dawali as the arabic name of the food, and state that it is popular in Levantine Arab countries. Thank you -Niz

I can also attest to this name being used in the Palestinian territories as well as within the Arab community in Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.123.4.230 (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

---

Sorry but this Armenian etymology addition is hilarious, who on Earth added somthing so unbelievable. Dolma is clealy a Turkic etymology meaning Dolma = To Fill, Dol = Fill, when ma is added it becomes "To Fill", from my holiday trips to Turkey picking up the little of the language I know it is a commonly used word.

Also Dolma is not generally stuffed with meat, its a vegetarian dish, some versions may have a little mincemeat but that's all.

User:Johnstevens5

In Greece, at least, with-meat and without-meat versions of dolma are both common, with preference depending largely on the time of year (vegetarian is more common in the summertime; meat in the wintertime). --Delirium 21:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Greek?

The greek says "dolmadakia", but a transliteration of the greek text says "dolmadhes" ("ntolmades"). Could someone "in the know" please correct it? As yet there isn't even a greek article for reference... Tomer^talk 23:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

They're both correct; the "-akia" version is a diminutive plural ending, while the "-adhes" version is a "normal" plural ending. They have slightly different connotations, but are mostly interchangeable. --Delirium 21:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

definition

In English usage as far as I'm aware, and certainly in Greek usage, "dolma" refers specifically to the stuffed grape leaves, and does not include stuffed tomatoes, stuffed peppers, or other such dishes that go by different names, such as "yemista". The article currently says they all go under the general term "dolma"; is this a usage common in English? --Delirium 21:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to Food's article on dolma is primarily about stuffed vegetables, though it also mentions the rolled grape leaves (sarma). I am not sure what other generic name we could use for the Ottoman stuffed vegetables, which are found from the Balkans to Arabia. --Macrakis 23:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have changed this article so that the variance of usage between British English and American English does not mislead. The same vegetable is commonly given different names in Britain and in the USA. The vegetable that in Turkish is called 'kabak' is called commonly 'zucchini' by the Americans taking its origin from Italian but generally called 'courgette' by the British taking its origin from French. Similarly, the same vegetable that is called 'patlican' in Turkish is called commonly by the Americans 'eggplant' and called generally by the British 'aubergine' which is originally French. The article before my correction gave the impression that 'zucchini' and 'courgette' were different vegetables; similarly 'eggplant' and 'aubergine'. --User:noyder 00:35, 16 March 2007

In church (a Greek church), I am used to hearing 'dolmadhes' or 'ntolmadakiagialantsi' ("dolmadakia-yaladzi") used interchangeably. I am also told that their origin is Turkish, as is that of all Greek words containing 'nts' for "dz". Class4System (talk) 05:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Etymology

Perhaps we should go a step further and cut out all the grammatical details for the verb dolmak. I still think that it is an active verbal noun because dolmak is an intransitive verb so it can't have a passive form. None of this, however, is important to this article so perhaps we could rewrite that sentence as: "Dolma is derived from the Turkish verb dolmak which means "to become stuffed" and thus roughly means "stuffed thing"." Xemxi 17:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty happy with the current wording, which incorporates your correction (that it is a verbal noun and not a participle), but doesn't specify whether it is active or passive. As GL Lewis points out in Turkish Grammar (p 171), in English, too, verbal nouns can be used both passively and actively, e.g. "the singing of the choir" and "the singing of the song". I think it is good to note that it is a regularly formed verbal noun, just like ezme, yazma, bekleme, etc. --Macrakis 17:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be a reflexive verbal noun. If the verb would have been "doldurma" it would be an active verbal noun, or else if it would have been "doldurulma" it would be a passive one. But the verb "dolmak" seems like a reflexive one.

--Chapultepec 17:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that makes sense (leaving the sentence as is). But just for the record, dolmak ("to be full") can never be made passive because the verb can never have an object! The possibile derivatives include doldurmak (transitive: "to fill") and doldurulmak (intransitive: "to be filled"). It's counter-intuitive thinking about it in English terms because there is no English equivalent to dolmak. I don't think it is reflexive because that would imply the subject and object are the same. Anyhow, none of this belongs on a food page, so I'll leave it at that! Xemxi 17:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Thanks. --Macrakis 20:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record: Turkish intransitive verbs can be passivized in what is called 'impersonal passive' constructions, i.e: 'Burada yuzulmez'. Likewise transitive sentences can be 'double passivized'.

Which variety of grape?

Which variety of grape plant is used for the leaves, typically? Concord, chardonnay, pinot, etc? Badagnani (talk) 10:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Whatever grapes you have. In Europe, they will of course be Vitis vinifera. I would guess Concord grape leaves would work, but I don't know. --Macrakis (talk) 13:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

that's what i use.. white/green grapes, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.191.11.163 (talk) 22:51, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

dawali

Hey, what about the translation, dawali - that's the one I'm familiar with, both don;t see it represented here. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 08:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What is the language? Badagnani (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Palestinians call it dawali. --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Nutritional information

I could see that it is missing it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevecam (talk • contribs) 00:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge "Sarma (Food)" article with this one.

In most cases people don't make a distinction between the two. Dolma can be (and is often) used for both Dolma and Sarma dishes, but Sarma is sometimes used to dishes that are "wrapped" (i.e. leaf/cabbage dishes). Sarma(Food) need only be a section the Dolma article, not an entire one on its own. Both Dolma and Sarma dishes usually share the same filling and similar preparations etc, and are derived fromt he same concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alperyasar (talk • contribs) 03:05, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

It wouldnt make sense, Dolma is general term (From huge Lamb to tiny pepper dolmas) This article needs to be refined. And Sarma (wrapping) should be imporved to include other ones. Sarma is not Dolma, it is both literally and logically wrong. While Sarma is apperative, dolma is main dish(I assume balkanian cussine has similar rituals like anatolian)

I am against this proposal. Dolmades are a specific food, and the term is widely used and recognized. Merger would cause confusion and a loss of accuracy. 24.4.206.167 (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)arbales

Latin-alphabet spelling of kουπέπια

I'm changing the spelling of

Categories beginning to get unwieldy

If we shove in a category for every nation that has this, things will get unwieldy. Can people suggest some cath all s (suh as Balkan cuisine) that will cover everywhere relevant?--Peter cohen (talk) 10:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

sauce

"Meat dolma are generally served warm, often with sauce" - which sauce(s) would that be? 77.8.103.5 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:12, 23 June 2010 (UTC).

Totamto leaf Dolma ?

Tomato leaves are poisonous 98.118.62.140 (talk) 22:00, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. It looks like soemone copied to the previous entry and forgot to remove the mention of leaf. Thansk for pointing this out. If in the future you see something similar, you're welcome to fix it yourself--Peter cohen (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Gemista - merged into Dolma

I oppose on this suggestion. Gemista is a unique & remarkable Hellenic food in Greece and of course, must have its own article.--46.177.179.219 (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Rubbish. "Gemista" simply means "stuffed". Reliable sources like the Oxford Companion to Food make this clear. --Macrakis (talk) 03:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)