Talk:Double whole note

Length

Its length is equal four beats in 4/2 time and similarly a whole bar in time signatures where the top number is greater than the bottom (but not more than twice as great).

I don't think I understand the second part of the sentence (from "and similarly"). A note lasting as long as a bar of 12/8, for example, would not be written as a breve, but as a dotted semibreve. 7/4 would be a double-dotted breve. Or am I misunderstanding something? --Camembert

Please rewrite this so it makes sense to you. It's a long time since my music theory lessons and I was having trouble covering the different scenarios. Warofdreams 19:15, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Righto. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. --Camembert

alla breve

should an alla breve article redirect here? and if yes, shouldn't be at least mentioned once the term 'alla breve' (which refers to the tempo) see http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texta/AllaBreve.html for example Nkour 15:49, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• I can't see why it should. Either an expanded mention in time signature and a redirect there, or a full article on the alla breve would seem more appropriate. Warofdreams 15:09, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I added a mention, because at least it might cause confusion, and its derivation is related to the breve. However, I agree that the page shouldn't redirect here, since I haven't discussed its modern use (and shouldn't, as far as I can see, because that isn't directly related to the breve). Rigadoun 04:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Two-adjacent whole notes

Can someone give a citation or post an example of this usage? I'm not sure if I've ever seen it, and I work a lot on the history of musical notation. Usually this notation means that two independent voices are both singing/playing a whole note on the same pitch. Thanks! -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 16:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:44, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Double whole note → Breve (note) — Much simpler, and the current title can be confused with dotted whole note. Georgia guy (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with the move. But I don't know that it's actually simpler, having a disambiguation term in the title itself. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I rather doubt that "double whole note" will be confused with "dotted whole note", but more importantly, changing Double whole note → Breve (note) would put this article at odds with the whole note, half note, etc. articles. --Atemperman (talk) 02:32, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose for the sake of consistency. I call it a breve, myself, but that is not the terminology adopted on Wikipedia for article names of musical notes. StAnselm (talk) 07:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

To be fair on consistency -- American usage includes both Breve and Double Whole Note as terms. but I agree that it's unlikely to be confused with Dotted whole note. So remain neutral -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 10:32, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discuss this sentence

Because it lasts longer than a bar in most modern time signatures, the breve is now rarely encountered. In time signatures where the top number is exactly twice that of the bottom, however, it lasts a whole bar and so may still be found (the most common time signature of this kind is 4/2).

Is 4/2 that common in today's music?? I would like for some discussion on whether it is worth mentioning both 4/2 and 8/4 in this paragraph as valid time signatures for this note. Georgia guy (talk) 14:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't have any statistics to cite off the top of my head, but I would think that 4/2 is much more common than 8/4 (neither of them being common though) in common practice music. In Renaissance music, 4/2 (C) and 6/2 (O) are probably equally common -- with 6/2 being much more common in early 15th c. music, but 4/2 increasing in importance going towards and into the 16th century. It's worth mentioning, I'd think, because otherwise people might not be able to come up with a time signature that needs the breve. 9/4 almost never takes the breve (usually a dotted-whole tied to dotted-half) so the next most common (explicitly notated) time signatures after 4/2 I'd think would be 5/2 (common in Crumb among others), 8/4 and 11/4. These are just guesses from having looked at a lot of unusual music over the years. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 21:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Now, why is a dotted-whole tied to a dotted-half preferred over a breve tied to a quarter note in 9/4?? Georgia guy (talk) 22:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Dotted breve

Has a dotted breve ever been in use?? We would need a time signature of 6/2 in order to have one. Georgia guy (talk) 23:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 03:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The sections headed "Breve rest" and "Alla breve" display no citations at all. It might be nice to have something to confirm the accuracy of these claims, though they do not appear particularly controversial to me. The rest of the article appears to be well-sourced.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:13, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Breve for a beat

How are time signatures with the breve as the beat notated?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The expression "time signature" is sometimes used, but the technical term is "mensuration sign", and the use of a breve beat is indicated by drawing a vertical line through that sign. There are four basic signs: (1) a plain circle (tempus perfectum), (2) a circle with a dot at the center, (3) a broken circle (similar to the letter C, for tempus imperfectum), and (4) a broken circle with a dot at the center. The central dot in (2) and (4) indicates major prolation, and is for obvious reasons incompatible with the vertical line. So, for practical purposes, prolatio minor is the only form of beat subdivision natural to alla breve time. We are of course speaking here of a notational practice belonging to the 14th to 16th centuries. Although the expression "alla breve" continues to be used down to the present it has become a misnomer, since by the 18th century it came to refer to music with a minim (half-note) beat. Perhaps this needs to be explained in the article?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)