Talk:Duke University

Affiliation

Dear User:Bluedog423, I noticed that you removed referenced information regarding the affiliation of Duke University with The United Methodist Church. I would like to provide you with some references from the university, Church, and secondary sources that discuss the topic:

The website of Duke University has an article titled "Duke University's Relation to the Methodist Church: the basics," which states:

Duke University has historical, formal, on-going, and symbolic ties with Methodism, but is an independent and non-sectarian institution.

In an article titled Duke University's Relation to the Methodist Church, which is taken from the university website, it states:

The relationship between the institution now known as Duke University and the United Methodist Church has evolved over more than a century and a half. In governance, the Charter of Duke University notes that the Trustees "shall be a body politic and corporate under the name and style of `Duke University,' and shall have perpetual existence.." The purposes for which the body is organized are, among others, "to acquire, own, operate, provide, maintain and perpetuate an institution of higher learning.." Membership of the Trustees shall be, in addition to the President of the University, "thirty-six elected Trustees, twelve elected by the North Carolina Conference of the United Methodist Church; twelve by the Western North Carolina Conference of the said church; and twelve by the graduates of said University; provided, however, that no person shall be elected a Trustee till he has first been recommended by a majority of the Trustees present at a regular meeting.."

The website for the International Association of Methodist-related Schools, Colleges, and Universities states that the denomination Duke University is affiliated with is United Methodist. Moreover, an article titled "United Methodist schools score high in rankings" from The United Methodist Church also lists Duke University there. In addition, the website for the College Board also states that Duke University is affiliated with the United Methodist Church. Per WP:RS, the sentence in the article should not be removed as it is properly buttressed by these, as well as other references. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

• Hi Anupam - thanks for you comments and contributions to the article. Here are my thoughts on the matter. The only authoritative source on if Duke University is affiliated with the United Methodist Church is Duke itself. Thus, if Duke has a differing position on the matter than other sources, Duke's statement is what we need to take as fact. Methodist sources obviously have incentive to play up their significance on as many quality institutions of higher learning as possible, which is fine, but they clearly are a bit biased in suggesting that perhaps any loose connection is an official "affiliation." Having said that, you've linked and quoted the direct source of Duke's position on the matter, which I appreciate. They attempt to directly clear up any confusion and the source states, "Duke University has historical, formal, on-going, and symbolic ties with Methodism, but is an independent and non-sectarian institution." That, to me, directly states that Duke is NOT directly affiliated with the Methodist Church - otherwise, it wouldn't be an "independent and non-sectarian institution." It would be instead "affiliated with the Methodist Church."

To have it in the infobox that the religious affiliation is the "United Methodist Church" is misleading in my mind to readers as it pits Duke in the same light as BYU or Notre Dame, for example, wherein the Church actually has an active role as to current decisions that shape the university unlike at Duke. Thus, I modified the infobox to be clear to readers and stated what Duke suggested above and wrote "historical and symbolic ties to the Methodist Church, but independent in its governance." On another note, as you seem to be more well-versed in Methodism than I am, is there any difference between the "United Methodist Church" and simply the "Methodist Church."? It seems that in all Duke literature, the latter is used and not the former (except when mentioning the Divinity school, which the church has a more active influence on). Perhaps the United Methodist Church is a more recent offshoot of the generic Methodist movement - thus, stating "United" in and of itself seems misleading in my mind as Duke never uses that word (unless the United Methodist Church and Methodist Church can be used interchangeably).

By the way, I am not trying to downplay or eliminate any mention of the Methodist Church in the Duke article, as certainly over history it has played a role in shaping the university. In fact, the second sentence of the article states "Founded by Methodists" and the influence of the Methodist Church is mentioned heavily in the history section of the article, both of which I personally added to the article. In addition, the statement that "The university has 'historic and symbolic ties to the Methodist Church but it always has been independent in its governance'" is in the Academic Profile section (which I wrote there), which you placed a variation of in the lead.

I did not remove any information or references that you added except that I feel mentioning the above statement in the Academic Profile section is sufficient enough and saying it in the lead is repetitive and not necessary as its not one of the key summary points of the article per WP:LEAD. The only things I eliminated were the paragraphs of quotes in the Notes section from each reference, which are unnecessary as the reader can easily click the link if they want the quote in full and made the section more gangly than it already is. I kept the single quote from the Duke source you mentioned above, which is shorter, clearer and states Duke's position on the matter for clarity. The Duke Chapel, built from 1925 to 1930, was even constructed as an interdenominational facility - that would seem odd for an institution if it was clearly affiliated with the Methodist Church.

In my opinion, I believe the founding aspects of the university and its ties to Methodism and the influence of the Church throughout history should be clearly detailed in the article. And they are. These facts are mentioned in the lead "founded by Methodists", the history section, the more detailed history article, as well as the Academic profile section (which I largely contributed to). I think there should be no mention of a religious affiliation in the infobox at all as this seems to be misleading to readers when Duke itself states its a "non-sectarian" institution. Duke states is it not directly actively affiliated with the Church. But if you absolutely insist that it must be in the infobox, stating the full information per Duke's source is more appropriate to give the reader a full view on the situation. I am attempting to give readers a full accurate description of the relationship. And, again, I don't see this "historical and symbolic" relationship significant enough to warrant mentioning three times in the article and it seems more appropriately placed in the history and academic profile section than the lead.

One last note - here is the quote I was using as I realize there are two similar ones from the Duke sources: "historic and symbolic ties to the Methodist Church but it always has been independent in its governance." Full article

Cheers, -Bluedog423^Talk 17:21, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

"formal" and "ongoing" clearly indicate affiliation with the Church. The infobox should display: "Methodist, sectarian" with a footnote containing an explanation. We have to accurately describe the relationship, even if it appears to us to be contradictory. Comparisions to BYU & ND are WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. – Lionel ^(talk) 00:25, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Lionel. Did you mean to write the infobox should display "Methodist, non-sectarian"? That would be fine with me and I think makes it clearer. Also, I guess it depends how you define "affiliated" - I'm not sure I've seen a clear definition and I haven't seen any Duke literature that explicitly states the university is affiliated with the Church - that's all I was saying. If Duke is officially "affiliated" with the Church, I'd think there'd be some Duke source using that terminology. Again, previously the infobox had written: "historic and symbolic ties to the Methodist Church but independent in its governance," so it's not as if it excluded it completely there anyways. But perhaps that's too verbose for an infobox. -Bluedog423^Talk 18:58, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Getting back to the definition of "affiliated." Duke refers to itself as a "nonsectarian institution." Merriam Webster defines nonsectarian as such: "not having a sectarian character : not affiliated with or restricted to a particular religious group." Definition Thus, based on the definition of the word and the fact that Duke explicitly states its "nonsectarian" suggests to me that it's not an "affiliation" but rather a relationship that should be detailed in the text of the article (which it already is). Otherwise, you'd have to argue that either Duke is using "nonsectarian" incorrectly or that Merriam Webster has an incorrect definition. Unless I'm misunderstanding something. Or I suppose one could argue that its simply nonsectarian because the institution isn't "restricted to a particular religious group." Let me know your thoughts. Regards, -Bluedog423^Talk 16:24, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear User:Bluedog423, Happy Thanksgiving! I noticed your changes to the article and am fine with them. I have clarified "Methodism" to "The United Methodist Church" as there are several Methodist denominations in the United States, such as the Free Methodist Church and African Methodist Episcopal Church. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:28, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks! -Bluedog423^Talk 18:10, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Dear User:Bluedog, I think it is best to keep the information in the lead. This is because the affiliation of a university is considered a key feature. Websites such as The Princeton Review usually present this information in their introduction to the university as well. Thanks for your understanding. I hope this helps and that you are looking forward to this coming Christmas. With regards, Anupam^Talk 21:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Image deletion discussion

Relevant deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2011_December_28#File:Duke.gif.--GrapedApe (talk) 17:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

reverted vandalism by . 152.23.230.246

This page was recently vandalized. Please monitor unsigned edits for future problems --ProfPolySci45 (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

File:JamesDukeStatueAndChapel1.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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