Talk:Dyke (slang)

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Dyke reclaimed

I think that this article needs a little more info on the status of the word within the LGBT community (including adding that info to the intro). I think that a prime example of the misunderstanding of the word was the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's denial of the "Dykes on Bikes" trademark, which was recently reversed (see [1], [2], and [3]). What would be great is to find a good photo of the Dykes on Bikes at the head of a Gay Pride parade. I tried a quick Google Image search, but didn't see anything that I thought would work. Here's a link to the San Francisco Woman's Motocycle Contigent/Dykes on Bikes website: [4].

There are now Dyke Marches around the world (see [5], which is another example of the reclaimation of the word within the LGBT community. 4.232.105.117 10:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The tone of the article seems to suggest that "dyke" is used by the majority of gay women. Is this really the case? None of the several gay female friends I have use the word, and some of them have expressed a distaste for the word when asked about it. If there is no external evidence that a majority of gay women use "dyke" or support its use, I suggest modifying the article changing things like "most" and "often" to "many" and "sometimes." --Babcockd 11:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Origin

I'm deleting this, which seems frankly ridiculous: "The word may have originated from the Celtic language (the name, Boudicca, was that of a powerful queen). The use of the term bulldyke would seem to support this theory." I guess the idea is that "bulldyke" is somehow similar-sounding to "Boudicca", but there is no evidence that it's Celtic (it combines two English words) or that it's at all ancient, since it's first attested in the 1920s. Unless there is a source to be found for this, surely it's not appropriate here. Paul B 01:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

For the record, this etymology was suggested by Judy Grahn in her book Another Mother Tongue. I agree that it's very unlikely but it may be worth including as a popular association, even if just to debunk it. Another folk etymology was just added where the term derives from a Dutch story of someone plugging a hole in a dam wall (dyke) with their finger. Also highly unlikely (I reverted it for now). As far as I can tell though, no-one really knows where the word comes from. ntennis 01:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Another folk etymology was added to the article by an anonymous editor. I removed it here for now, as a google for aglodike and dyke revealed only this wikipedia article. I doubt there is anything to it:

Interestingly, the famous female greek physician Aglodike (Late 4th century BC) was known to dress in men's clothes, being that it was unacceptable for women to practice medicine. Aglodike was saved from execution by the women of her town, who loved her "caring touch" as a physician. Historians speculate that the word dyke may have originated from Aglodike.

Any of the three etymologies suggested above should go in a section called "folk etymology", if at all. While we're at it, I also found this on the internet:

"Another possibility is that the term derives from *dike* meaning "to overdress", "to wear fancy clothes", *diked out* has been used in the same way as *decked out* in the United States since the 1840's. Arguing both these theories is the fact that word appears first in the long term forms *bulldike* and *bulldyking*, both used in the 1920's by American blacks. No african antecedents have been found for the term, however which leads to the possibility that this is basically just another backcountry, barnyard word, perhaps a combination of *bull* and *dick*." ntennis 03:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There is much debate as to the etymology of "dyke." All etymologies should be listed as speculative, and one is no more ridiculous than another. Boudicca, the Greek mythological figure Dike, bull dick, bulldog and hermaphro-dyke are all plausible. One thing that sticks in my craw about the article is the "use of a French word, dike," for cross-dressing. I have a lot of experience with Romance philology, and I find no such word. Plus, the letter "k" found in "dike" is very very un-French. Any light to be shed on this would be appreciated. Iamvered 18:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Check this out: [6]Iamvered 18:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Is there no room for the consideration that dyke means ditch, for instance G.A. Henty's "By Pyke and Dyke", and that ditch sounds like bitch? I know its pejorative, but, slang words often have ominous origins. I mean, I could see a male calling a butch women a dyke, then her being like "What?", and him replying "I called you a ditch.", while slurring the d. Being called a ditch anyway wouldn't be nice. I know this seems like original research, but I thought that the etymology of a word should be based on its roots, so I don't see how the word dyke could not have to do with a ditch. Michael, 16:10 , 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the Anne Bonny story is implausible; no academic discussion I can find supports this origin. Moved here in case someone can clarify and source it:

The word dike appeared in 1710 in British newspaper stories about cross-dressing pirates Anne Bonny and Mary Read. One editorial euphemistically referred to their cross dressing with a French word, dike, which refers to men's clothing.

—Celithemis 23:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel like if the Aglodike reference isn't completely made up (as the only information I can find about her seems to be a repetition of the same story paraphrased) then there might be some meaning that actually extends to a time before Aglodike, since the name Eurydike (or Eurudike) appears before the fourth century in reference to somebody, apparently meaning "she whose justice extends widely" (according to the Wikipedia article on Orpheus, section called Death of Eurydice), and I'm quite sure that a woman whose "justice extends widely" would be compared to a lesbian more often than not. Anyway, just felt like inserting my 0.015 Euros. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.86.254 (talk) 07:03, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

possible material for etymology section

With regard “dyke,” the word itself has never been exclusively negative either, and there are two theories in particular that explain how it has evolved into a term for aggressive or masculine women. The first has to do with a “Celtic queen who organized a revolt against the Roman Empire in early Britain in 67 A.D.” (Halberstam, “Declaration”). Her name was Queen Boudicca, pronounced “buadyke” in some dialects, and her stand against the Romans is sometimes claimed as a model for early versions of female power and toughness in women (Grahn, “Declaration”). Although I do enjoy this version, with regard to the trademark case I prefer the second theory, which claims that the word “dyke” comes from the Greek goddess Dike. According to one source, although “She may have started her career on Earth, [she] quickly moved up to sitting on the Right (Dike means Right) of Zeus as his number one counselor. She was the Goddess of Justice” (Athena). With regard to this role, another source explains that, “she watched the deeds of man, and approached the throne of Zeus with lamentations whenever a judge violated justice. … She was the enemy of all falsehood, and the protectress of a wise administration of justice” (Atsma).[7]

Halberstam, Judith. “Declaration of Judith Halberstam Under 37 C.F.R. § 2.20.” Exhibit 15. Declarations in Support of Request for Reconsideration. Brooke Oliver Law Group, P.C. 18 March 2005 <http://www.artemama.com/>.

Grahn, Judy. “Declaration of Judy Grahn Under 37 C.F.R. § 2.20.” Exhibit 15. Declarations in Support of Request for Reconsideration. Brooke Oliver Law Group, P.C. 18 March 2005 <http://www.artemama.com/>.

Athena, Ailia. “The Greek Goddesses.” Women in Greek Myths. 15 July 2006 <http://www.paleothea.com/Goddesses.html>.

Atsma, Aaron. “Dike.” Theoi Project Guide to Greek Mythology. 15 July 2006 < http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/HoraDike.html>.

I'm working on Dykes on Bikes and thought this might be of use. Benjiboi 22:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Stealth Dyke?

Can anyone confirm that this is in modern usage? NYC dyke here and have never heard this.

69.112.164.135 (talk) 11:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

all manner of qualifiers, fitness dyke, corporate dyke, country dyke, etc., are in use so I see no reason to doubt that stealth dyke is in use presently. For the article's purposes we would need a source. Banjeboi 04:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Addition to Increasing Acceptance

I would just like to add on to the given information about the growing acceptance of the term in society.

While it still holds a relatively negative connotation, there are in fact a large number of homosexual women who prefer this term. In fact, in Barbara Raab's article "Sticks & Stones and Dykes," she mentions Joan Nestle, editor and activist in the LGBT community for almost 50 years. Nestle says, "...in the late '70's younger women proudly reclaimed the word 'dyke.' ...Young women full of strength and home... emptied the word of its bigotry and fear, replacing it with community and self-affirmation."

Here is the URL to the full article : http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2703/sticks_stones_and_dykes/

Also, Alison Bechdel writes a weekly comic strip named "Dykes to Watch Out For," using linguistic activism to spread the term "Dyke" around her community.

All of this is not to say that the term could not be used offensively. Of course, there is still a great population of homosexual women who would be greatly insulted when called a dyke, but in general the word is slowly becoming more accepted in today's society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annierw (talk • contribs) 23:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary usage :- US Rap Artist Kanye West uses the term 'blonde dyke' in his single 'Stronger'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.115.18.147 (talk) 08:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

But what assurances have we that this is intended to be understood in the positive, enlightened usage as against the old-fashioned, offensive one?

Nuttyskin (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I think he was just looking for something to rhyme with Klondike. –xeno^talk 14:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

It may have gone the other way that he needed something to rhyme with blond dyke. -- Banjeboi 20:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The increasing visibility of the use as a positive descriptor by lesbians themselves would seem compelling. Two examples I'm aware is Dykes on Bikes which is used internationally and often leads pride parades and the Pat Bond Memorial Old Dyke Award since 1992. -- Banjeboi 20:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Inappropriate for an encyclopedia

One sentence reads:

"In Another Mother Tongue, Judy Grahn proposed that the word bulldyke might have arisen from the name of the Celtic queen Boadicea, but this theory is implausible."

Two references are given, but that is irrelevant to my point. To use the word "implausible" as though something either is, or is not, implausible, is not a factual description, and so it is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. This is a matter of opinion -- no matter how widely the opinion may be shared by experts.

What is appropriate to say -- if true -- is that, e.g., ". . . but several experts in etymology have stated that this theory is implausible.[refs. go here]"Daqu (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2010 (UTC)