Talk:Ethnic cleansing

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WWII origins of the term

Also, I've come-up with some interesting information: in WWII Yugoslavia, the Chetnik movement was already referring to terror operations intended to remove populations from regions they considered Serbian, as "cleansing actions", which possibly constitutes the origins of the term. (To be sure, ethnic cleansing was committed by most sides of the WWII civil war in Yugoslavia.) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I think that I also "come-up with some interesting information". Serbs obviously called their intentions "to remove populations from regions they considered Serbian" as "cleansing" actions much earlier. Look at the following explanation of Gorski Vijenac: „da čistimo zemlju od nekrsti“. Maybe we should seek the origins of the term "ethnic cleansing" in Gorski Vijenac (The mountain wreath) instead in "terror operations" of the Chetnik movement. I really find it very interesting. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Well I would find it difficult to associate the Gorski Vijenac with ethnic cleansing, and indeed, to call for war against the Ottoman Empire by saying "lets cleanse the land of the infidel" is a far cry from doing any actual ethnic cleansing.

On the other hand operations referred to by the Chetnik movement as "cleansing actions" were done with the purpose of expelling Bosnian Muslims, and succeeded in cleansing around 10,000 people by their own estimate (Tomasevich, pp.256-261). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:10, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

When you look for the origin of the term, you have to look on written documents, not movements or operations. It is not movement or operation which is origin of the term, but the written word. Though, The mountain wreath is not only a poem. It describes actual events in Montenegro, on the Christmas eve at the beginning of 18th century, when thousands Muslims were killed because Orthodox Serbs had intention to clean their land from infidels („da čistimo zemlju od nekrsti“). That means that it was not only the written word, but testimony of what really happened.

Btw, do you know about similar testimony about events which happened at the end of 17th century when all muslims living in Slavonija, Lika, Dalmacija... suddenly disappeared together with all of their mosques, medressas, teqes, caravanserais...?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

• If you can find sources which describe these events as "ethnic cleansing", and if the Vijenac uses that same term ("cleansing"), you would still have a problem with your proposal as the Vijenac calls for religious, not ethnic, prosecution.
• The Chetniks themselves referred to ethnic cleansing operations in 1943 as "cleansing actions", that may be worth mentioning in the article as this long pre-dates its modern use. The exact document, I assume, can be found in the primary sources listed by Tomasevich in his treatise of Chetnik terror, pp.256-261.

Chetnik units which had been mobilized in December 1942 in Montenegro and readied for the planned, but delayed, "March on Bosnia" were ordered early in January and again early in February to undertake what were known as "cleansing actions" against the Moslems, first in the county of Bijelo Polje in Sandžak and in February in the county of Čajniče and part of the county of Foča in southeastern Bosnia, and in part of the county of Pljevlja in Sandžak. Chetnik losses were nominal; Moslem losses were estimated at about 10,000 persons.
Tomasevich, pp.256-261

• I am unsure about the 17th century events, but one certainly expects that Turkish mosques would be demolished by the Habsburg Monarchy in the territories liberated from Ottoman rule after the Great Turkish War. If you can show that the events are known as ethnic cleansing (as opposed to religious prosecution), feel free to include them.

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Acadian deportation edit. (Edit protected)

Just a minor edit that I feel should be included. It isn't involved in the ongoing dispute, which I seem to see revolves around 1200's expulsion of jews from england. If I am wrong, and this edit is part of the section that is disputed, please disregard this post and leave me a message on my talk page. Acebulf (talk) 23:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

This part : * The forced expulsion of the Acadians in 1755, from settlements in Nova Scotia, and the subsequent deaths of over 50% of the deported population, has been described by many scholars as being an act of ethnic cleansing following the French and Indian Wars. <ref>http://www.cstudies.ubc.ca/liberalstudies/abstracts/documents/Abstract_Stevenson_Apr09.pdf-The 1755 Ethnic Cleansing of Acadia; Who Was Responsible?</ref>

Should be replaced by a linked version : * The [[Expulsion of the Acadians|forced expulsion of the Acadians]] in [[1755]], from settlements in [[Nova Scotia]], and the subsequent deaths of over 50% of the deported population, has been described by many scholars as being an act of ethnic cleansing following the [[French and Indian War]]s. <ref>http://www.cstudies.ubc.ca/liberalstudies/abstracts/documents/Abstract_Stevenson_Apr09.pdf-The 1755 Ethnic Cleansing of Acadia; Who Was Responsible?</ref>

Just adding inter-wiki links. Acebulf (talk) 23:38, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Done (though I didn't add the year, per WP:OVERLINK). Ucucha (talk) 03:32, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Armenians and Azerbaijanis

During the 20th century, hundreds of thousands of Armenians were pushed out of Azerbaijan - from Baku, Sumgait, Shahumyan and Nakhichevan. Likewise hundreds of thousands of Azerbaijanis were pushed out of Karabakh and Armenia. We all know this and the article should reflect it. However, there are five mentions of the Azeri issue. Two in the 1990s alone. For the most part the texts refer to very broad numbers and periods of times that do not fit the periods spoken of, nor do the references necessary match the period or the broadness even. It's repetitive, and a poor attempt to make Armenians look like they alone have deported millions of Azeris alone. If you want to document the deportations, be my guest, but do it honestly, and let the information in each decade match the time period. I rewrote texts in the Karintak article and added references based on your comments - even though my information was quite solid and fitting in place. This text is sloppy and transparent propaganda and cannot stay as is. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:49, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Nobody says "Armenias alone" deported anyone. If you think it is what it is, add the text and it will be reviewed but to completely remove sourced sections is not warranted. You do that one more time, you will be reported. Tuscumbia (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I did not say anyone said that. And I have made my arguments for the reason the texts specifically do not speak to the sections under which they are listed, and do not belong to them. You can ignore that and report me rather than address the problem. --RaffiKojian (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Its is not the first time you have been edit warring on controversial issues. Nor is it the first time that I have asked you to stop and you have neglected to do so. The fact of the matter is the deportations are from different times and are considered different events. Your removal of well sourced information is ill-advised. Neftchi (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You removed my text additions at will and without any discussion, even as I addressed issues you raised which I did not find very valid. Meanwhile you are defending repetitive and ill-placed texts and complaining that I am removing them. I'd rather work together on WP, but I can't work together by myself. --RaffiKojian (talk) 03:34, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

20th century is a very broad term, it pretty much covers all the ethnic cleasings in this articles, therefore there would be no need for seperate timelines. However there are seperate timelines and since early 20th century, and WW2 and Karabakh deportations are all seperate cases they should all be seperately pointed out. In my latest edit I restored the 1947-1950 deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia SSR. And I also restored proper information with sources on the number of displaced people and refugees in Karabakh. Neftchi (talk) 10:54, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with information belonging to a specific decade being presented there. I do have a problem with the numbers for the entire century being placed under multiple decades, or even twice in a decade. The text is now much improved. --RaffiKojian (talk) 18:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Highland Clearances

Were the Highland Clearances ethnic cleansing? AndrewJFulker (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Was just going to raise this. Yes they were. They should be referenced, and mentioned in this article.

Event as below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_clearances — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.235.65 (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Earlier draft

I got curious about this topic after seeing a similar topic mentioned in one of the signposts.

If you say "earlier draft", then earlier than what? What is the commission that created the draft? All of this is in the lead. Nothing has been said that would tell us who or what is going on.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 17:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

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