Talk:Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)

Rudolph Rummel uses obsolete data

Rudolph Rummel quotes sources published before 1991, in fact he quotes the same German post-war propaganda rewritten by people, who didn't do any research. Rudolph Rummel has published several anti-Polish texts, proving his ignorance regarding European history.Xx236 (talk) 11:26, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunaly in the English speaking world Rummel and De Zayas are the only sources in most libraries. The Polish editors need to include a writeup of Jankowiak, Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej w polityce władz polskich w latach 1945-1970 by IPN. My Polish is only basic otherwise I would do it. Kotinski can you get this book? We need you to present the Polish POV here--Woogie10w (talk) 11:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

What's wrong with de Zayas? The reason he's the "only source in most librarires" is that he's one of the few who have tackled the issue (see the wikipedia artile on de Zayas himself for corroborationAlfred_de_Zayas).TheKurgan (talk) 18:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that it is possible to do very good, solid academic work that is still colored by a biased POV. de Zayas is an example of this. There are two extremes to the POV spectrum: one asserts that the forced population transfer of ethnic Germans was an injustice, even an atrocity reaching to the level of a crime against humanity. As I understand it, this is basically the de Zayas perspective and he is to be praised for bringing the horrors of that aspect of the era to public attention after it had been suppressed and ignored for decades. However, there is another perspective that argues that there was lots of suffering in Europe at the time, the beneficiaries of the Nazi occupation of Poland and Eastern Europe were also the just recipients of retribution by the Poles and Eastern Europeans, many people of all nations were displaced and suffered horribly, much relocation of Germans was due to voluntary evacuation in flight from the advancing Soviet army, etc.

How you count the number displaced and killed depends on your methodology and that is colored very much by your perspective on the phenomenon. de Zayas is an important source for presenting the "atrocity reaching to the level of crime against humanity" POV. However, one has to remember that there are opposing POVs and de Zayas should not be presented by Wikipedia as the owner of the "gospel truth". Leave it to the reader to decide for him/herself where the truth lies. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't like any Polish POV either. I want facts, apparently manipulated by the majority of Germans, supported by South Amercan hobby historians. Where and when did Poles kill German civilians? How many? One can organise archeological investigations to find the bodies. Xx236 (talk) 12:33, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

BTW Rummel is an American from Ohio, he is not German. Rummel never uses German sources, he uses only English language sources that POV push Schieder and the 1958 Bonn figures. West German propaganda dominated the agument during the cold war. To present the Polish critism of the the 1958 Bonn figures could get you labled as a communist. Today the writings of Overmans and Harr recieve little or no mention in the English speaking academic world except for some very brief snippits. The editors here at English Wikipedia need to present the details of the scholary discourse and steer clear of the food fight between Erika Steinbach-BvD and the Polish tabloid media --Woogie10w (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

A group of historians, including several German ones, opposed the recent Bundestag declaration. The new Visible Sign committee is allegedly very academic. Xx236 (talk) 13:51, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

How does Visible Sign relate to R. J. Rummel? The guy is retired in Hawaii--Woogie10w (talk) 14:19, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I hope that the Visible Sign will publish serious data, to replace the Hawaian fantasies.Xx236 (talk) 09:28, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Condition of the expellees after arriving in post-war Germany-lacks some info

Mainly the political leadership of the "expellees" and their political demands-for instance restoration of Munich Treaty achieved by Adolf Hitler.I believe we should fix this omission--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 02:54, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this what you are referring to. My Polish is just so-so. [1] --Woogie10w (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Single ethnic population

I removed that sentence as it was incorrect. Some German Jews, Silesians, Kashubians were also expelled.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 02:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC) Czechs were also expelled.Xx236 (talk) 09:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

de:Wilfried Krallert

Wilfried Krallert deserves to be mentioned in this article, doesn't he?Xx236 (talk) 11:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Also in general,the article misses important data about political aspects. We certainly need to add Nazi connections of expellee organizations and role Nazis played in them.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

RE "we certainly need to add Nazi connections of expellee organizations and role Nazis played in them"... why? Because there is a legitimate connection (there isn't) or as an ad hominem attack against expellee organizations and the legitimate basis for their positions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.100.169 (talk) 20:17, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Krallert wrote up the 1958 figures for Yugoslavia, his figure of Volksdeutsche includes 10,026 Jews, 3,220 Russian orthodox, 115 Greek Catholics and 36 Moslems--Woogie10w (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Discourse

There is a precise timetable of the discourse - first the German propaganda and later the critic, opposed by a German politician, not a historian. Xx236 (talk) 13:03, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

What timetable? please explain? In any case Overmans maintains that Steinbach and Bergner are amateurs who exploit the issue for political reasons. Overmans also makes it clear that the question of the figures for the losses are uncertain and still need to be clarified by professional researchers.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

To back up my comments

This is where Overmans calls Steinbach and Bergner amateurs "als Laien" [2]

Overmans is qualified to speak on the subject, here is his resume. [3]

--Woogie10w (talk) 15:55, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean that the section should be ordered according to the timetable of the events. I mean that "Critic" is Ingo Haar's opinion, "opposed by a German politician". When I saw the section, there was no sequence of the events.Xx236 (talk) 13:36, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

This discourse occurred in Nov 2006, Haar published an article in a German newspaper and Bergner, Haar and Overmans were interviewed on German radio shortly thereafter. Then Frau Steinbach, the BvD and the Polish tabloid media got involved in a food fight over the numbers. lets avoid a food fight here on Wikipedia --Woogie10w (talk) 14:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

BTW the figure of 2 million is the view of the German government, not just one politician C. Bergner. please read BULLETIN DER BUNDESREGIERUNG page 2 [4] Zwei Millionen von ihnen, meist Alte, Kinder und Frauen, überlebten den Marsch nach Westen nicht--Woogie10w (talk) 14:57, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

"Marsch nach Westen", means apparently "including the Flucht". And obviously not "nach Westen", because quite many travelled to Siberia (East) or from Souther Europe, ie. to the North. Xx236 (talk) 09:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The Geraman president was clear, he does not blame the Polish people or nation, his theme was reconciliation not revenge!--Woogie10w (talk) 10:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Rudi Rummel subparagraph informs about 1998 but comes after 2006.Xx236 (talk) 10:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Rummel's book was published in 1998, I have a hard copy. It was posted to the internet in 2006 along with an answer to his Polish critics. Rummel is lost, he can't read German or Polish and is unaware of the discourse of Overmans-Haar-German Gov over the Church Service-1974 Archives-1958 figures. You can't blame him he does not read German!--Woogie10w (talk) 10:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The sequence of informations is wrong, Rummel belongs before Overmans-Haar-German Gov.

I can blame him he publishes his POV about Poland instead to learn.Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The German media STERN, SPIEGEL and ZDF are looking for eye witnesses.--85.181.48.121 (talk) 19:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Eye witnesses after 66 years, after watching tens of movies and documentaries and reading hundreds of accounts?Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Centre Against Expulsions

The Centre isn't planned any more, it has been replaced by the Visible Sign. But facts aren't interesting for BdV fans.Xx236 (talk) 12:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Die Vertreibung im deutschen Erinnern. Legenden, Mythos, Geschichte by Hahn and Hahn

http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/3506770446/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=471061493&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=3894582707&pf_rd_m=A3JWKAKR8XB7XF&pf_rd_r=14KF6H7Y4CYNZJEV47ZZ

The book describes common German ideas about the "Expulsion" rather than facts.Xx236 (talk) 12:54, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The NY Public Library does not have this book yet, It is new(published in 2010). The book is expensive and over 800 pages. I just read this interview with the author [5]. He seems me to be a critical observer who understands not only the history but also the current debates in Germany. He points out that not all BvD members are neo-Nazis and that there is still some valuable information in the Schieder reports even though they are from the cold war era. However he wants to move ahead and develop a modern understanding of the history of these events. He wants to move toward reconciliation not the confrontational politics of Steinbach and the BvD. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:39, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Hahn does not say "not all of them are neo-Nazis", a subtile way to say some (most?) of them are. He says, it's utter nonsense ("Quatsch") to portray them wholesale as revanchists or even "Nazis in disguise". HerkusMonte (talk) 15:15, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

True, he says only a small part. Most people in the old generation despised the Nazs, they realized they had to pay the price for Hitler's war--Woogie10w (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Weder Legende noch Mythos. Der norwegische Attentäter Breivik benützt die Vertreibung der Deutschen und insbesondere die Benesdekrete als Begründung für seine Forderung nach Ausweisung von Muslimen aus Europa. Wer sich allerdings in der deutschen Wikipedia als Einheimischer oder Ausländer aus aktuellem Anlaß informieren will, landet auf einer extrem linken oder tschechisch-nationalistischen Propagandaseite.--85.181.150.2 (talk) 10:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Neither legend nor mythos. The Norwegian killer Andres Breiwik takes the expulsion of the Germans as a role model for the expulsion of Muslims from Europe. above all the Benes Decrees. The information in Wikipedia, however, is biased. There are either Czech nationalists, like Mrs Hahn or the extreme Left. Many articles in Wiki sound like propaganda pamphlets and not like neutral information.--85.181.150.2 (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The NY Public Library now has this book, I will check it out soon. stay tuned- [6] --Woogie10w (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The NY Public Library has finally received the book. The Hahn’s have written an important book that covers a difficult topic, I have read the section on casualties. The authors conclude that the figure of 2 million dead is a historical myth of the cold war that lacks foundation, this myth is still accepted by the German government and the German public. They maintain that the figure of 473,000 dead in the expulsions is reasonable given the lack of information available. They point out ultimate reason for the mass flight and expulsion was the policy of the Nazis in Eastern Europe. I hope to put these points in the article.--Woogie10w (talk) 03:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Wrong title

The title is about the "Expulsion" and the lead about "Flight and expulsion". This is a Wikipedia, not a propaganda site, we should be precise.Xx236 (talk) 07:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the relevance of "propaganda", but for precision, certainly, as I keep saying, the title of this article needs to be changed to match its scope (it's not just Expulsion, and it's not just After). The last proposal I remember was Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950). The precise years are negotiable, but is it generally agreed that a title in that form would be an improvement?--Kotniski (talk) 10:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Your proposal is plausible, as article covers flight of German civilians before Red Army attacks. --Yopie (talk) 12:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I maintain that that title needs to be changed to the Flight and Expulsion of the Germans (1944-1950). Here are the main points regarding this topic that need to be addressed .

1-In Germany these events are referred to as the Flight and Expulsion. However historiography in the English speaking world tends to treat these events as occurring only after the war. De Zayas and R.J. Rummel have helped to reinforce this misconception.

2- The article needs to make it clear that it covers not only the expulsion after the war but also the flight during the war and the deportation to the USSR for forced labor. We really need to point out that the forced labor was considered reparations for the enormous destruction caused by Hitler Germany. This was the case in Poland also were German labor was employed to clear the rubble in Warsaw.

3- The article needs to make it clear regarding the time frame,cause and number of the deaths is uncertain and disputed. The flight, deportation, forced labor, internment after the war and plight in Germany after the expulsion are all integral parts of the topic being discussed.

4-The perpetrators of the violence against the civilians were the Soviet forces and their allies (ie. Polish and Czech militia, Yugoslav partisans) , not the Polish, Czech and Yugoslav people as a whole.

5-A major point that needs to be cleared up is the definition of who was a German. German official sources claim as “Germans” those bi-lingual citizens of Eastern European countries. Many supported Germany during the war. German sources puff up the death toll by manipulating the numbers of Germans alive before the war and underestimating the numbers of those assimilated by 1950. For example in Poland there were 1.0 million Cat A & B Volksdeutsche while the Polish census of 1931 indicates the number of ethnic Germans at about 741,000. Some persons signed the Volksliste for opportunistic reasons, many however were Nazi supporters and convicted as traitors by Polish courts after the war. To refer to these people as Slavic, Masurians, Silesians or Kasubians misinforms readers of English Wikipedia. This needs to cleared up. They were in fact Poles who spoke local dialects as well as German. The terms Masurian, Silesian and Kasubian are used by the Nazi census of 1939, they do not appear in the Polish census of 1931.

--Woogie10w (talk) 12:34, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Some sources claim that the evacuation of the Black Sea Germans started in 1943, some others that in 1944.Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Good catch, this is mentioned in the Schieder report, Reichling gives a figure of 370,000 Soviet Germans who were resettled during the war(1941-44) by Germany, including 300,000 sent to Poland. 280,000 were sent back to the USSR in 1945 and 90,000 became refugees in Germany after the war.

This article would be improved if only the editors would take the time to read the the Schieder report.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

But any reader of the Documentation shout remeber the political goals of the Schieder commission.Xx236 (talk) 13:45, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to remind that the move was suggested by User:Skäpperöd in March 2009 (Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive 15), the result was "no consensus". Maybe meanwhile this has changed. HerkusMonte (talk) 15:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Clear consensus to move. Approved. MacMed^talk_stalk 19:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC) MacMed^talk_stalk 19:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

---

Expulsion of Germans after World War II → Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) — As discussed in the thread above this one. Basically the present title fails to match the content of the article, which (a) is not restricted to expulsions (as opposed to flight), and (b) is not restricted to the period "after" WWII. --Kotniski (talk) 07:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree: Let's change title.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree per nominator.--Yopie (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree--Jacurek (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Agree Xx236 (talk) 08:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The proposed title may leave many readers wonder from where? 216.8.175.39 (talk) 18:31, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

No more so than the current title. Anyway, they can read the article to find out - in principle, any notable expulsions of (or fleeing by) Germans anywhere during this period would be within the scope of the article (and that seems to be how it's been treated), so I don't see a need to make a long title even longer by adding the geographical specifics.--Kotniski (talk) 07:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Many Germans were expelled from Western Europe, eg. from Alsace. Western Europe prefers to accuse bad Poles. An example of a text about Alsace-Lorraine "an exodus of Germans and influx of Frenchmen 1944 and after".Xx236 (talk) 08:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Support.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reasons and justifications for the expulsions

A general reason given by many authors, especially in connection with the expulstion and internment of the Yugoslav Swabians, is to use their emptie property. I will try to elaborate this with references and details. The emptied villages in Yugoslavia were given to war heroes of the Partisans and hill people who were not familiar with the land or farming. To some extent this also allowed the communists to implement their vision of collective farms adn land redistribution. Any help to fix this would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Imersion (talk • contribs) 21:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Germans were expelled /repatriated from Austria

http://www.cas.umn.edu/assets/pdf/WP935.PDF Xx236 (talk) 10:29, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The West German researcher Dr. Gerhard Reichling published in 1986 a study of German expellees based on his own calculations. Dr. Kurt Horstmann of the Federal Statistical Office of Germany wrote the forward to the study endorsing the work of Dr. Reichling. Reichling was an employee of the Federal Statistical Office who was involved in the study of German expulsion statistics since 1953. According to Reichling West German Law § 2 BVFG classified Germans expelled from western Europe and Germans resettled in Poland during the war as “heimatvertribenen”. Reichling’s estimates for this group are as follows: Austria- 80,000; Other Europe 135,000; Overseas 20,000 and wartime re-settlers from Poland 525,000.

Source of figures: Dr. Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen, Teil 1, Bonn 1986 (revised edition 1995). Page 59

Bear in mind- German citizens were still allowed to reside in Austria after the war, not all were expelled like in eastern Europe and 430,000 expellees also lived in postwar Austria.

BTW included with the wartime Resettlers from Poland was little Erika Steinbach

I hopes this helps us understand the issue of expellees from Austria.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC) So the article should inform about "Austria- 80,000; Other Europe 135,000; Overseas 20,000". BTW not all Germans were expelled from Poland, too. Some women married Polish men, many Germans declared to be Polish (autochton). See also [7].Xx236 (talk) 10:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

the largest movement or transfer of any population

Second Sino-Japanese War says: the war created 95 million refugees (no source of the exact number). 95 is more than 14. Xx236 (talk) 10:49, 20 September 2011 (UTC) [8] some 30 million in 1937.Xx236 (talk) 10:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC) Two quoted sources say "in Europe" or "European".Xx236 (talk) 12:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

It's well-sourced, no reason not to mention it in the lead. HerkusMonte (talk) 14:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe that HerkusMonte was correct to restore edit--Woogie10w (talk) 14:04, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

He didn't restore, but changed the former statement. I'm not sure if Modern history link is correct in recent context.Xx236 (talk) 08:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Rudolph Joseph Rummel summarised

The statement should be removed, because RJ Rummel summarizes 1950 propaganda. We are in 2011.Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

We should not censor Wikipedia, that is not our job as editors. RJ Rummel summarizes the sources that are available in the English language. 1950 propaganda of Rummel is what readers in the English speaking world now have as the source for the figures on the expulsions. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:04, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Even English speaking people understand the difference between war and post-war and between evacuation by own government and deportation by the enemy government. Rummel's method is to collect books and to compute Arithmetic mean. It's not exactly academic methodology. Arithmetic mean of data coming from Schieder's commisssion isn't academy. Xx236 (talk) 13:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

You wrote Even English speaking people understand the difference between war and post-war and between evacuation by own government and deportation by the enemy government Please cite a source for that statement. We should not censor Wikipedia to agree with just our own POV, that is not our job as editors--Woogie10w (talk) 13:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Also I must point out that the current position of the German government is that that death toll was 2 million. You may not agree with that figure, but there are still many persons who consider it to be correct. The purpose of the section on discourse is to contrast the different POV's on the topic--Woogie10w (talk) 13:57, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

And the same German government keeps Erika Steinbach away of the Flight and expulsion museum. Politics isn't about truth.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe the article should reflect the different POV’s on the question of the number of deaths, because there is a definite dispute on this topic. As editors we must maintain a NPOV and inform readers on the positions of the conflicting sources. We cannot decide what is right and wrong based on our own POV. Here is a summary of these sources:

• In the 1950’s the West German government estimated losses at 2 million.

• English language sources continue to use the figure of 2 million deaths based on this West German government estimate.

• In 1994 Dr. Rudiger Overmans questioned the validity of the figure of 2 million deaths, he disclosed the figure of 500-600,000 estimated deaths based on previously secret West German studies, Overmans maintained that the figure of 500-600,000 estimated deaths was not the definitive answer to question. Overmans maintained that further research is necessary to determine the actual number of deaths. Overmans suggested joint Polish-German research on this topic.

• In 2000 Dr. Rudiger Overmans published a study of German WW2 military casualties, the study did not research German civilian deaths. Overmans did point out that recent disclosures have questioned the validity of the figure of 2 million civilian deaths and that only 500,000 deaths have been confirmed. Overmans maintained that civilian expulsion deaths should be subject to a “critical revision”.

• In 2006 Ingo Haar published an article in which he questioned the validity of the figure of 2 million deaths, he maintained that during the cold war political pressure was used to inflate the figure of deaths. Haar maintained that the figure of 500-600,000 estimated deaths was the definitive answer to question. Haar also suggested joint Polish-German research on this topic. In 2007 and 2009 Haar published two additional articles on the issue in which he outlined the historiography of the issue in post war West Germany. These articles were translated into Polish and published in Poland.

• In 2006 the German government continued to maintain the figure of 2 million deaths as being correct.

• In 2006 Dr. Rudiger Overmans in an interview on German TV maintained that the issue needs to be clarified by further research by experts and taken out of the hands of amateurs. By amateurs one may assume that Overmans was referring to politicians in the German government and Erika Steinbach.

We need to inform readers of the above different conflicting POV's. The readers of Wikipedia can then draw their own conclusions--Woogie10w (talk) 14:46, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Goals of the Schieder comission

Schieder commission describes bias of the comission. "German politicians expected that a peace treaty would offer the chance for a revision of Germany's new eastern border." Does this article inform about Schieder commission's goals?Xx236 (talk) 12:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

In any case, the article does in fact point out to readers that Ingo Haar has found the Schieder commission to be biased. That is the opinion of Ingo Haar, however the German government endorsed a reprint of Schieder in 2004.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Xx236 you have made a good point about Schieder. The reason I say this is that the Schieder commission and the figures in the 1958 West German demographic study still dominate the accounts in the English speaking world. The best example is DeZayas who is nothing but a slick trial lawyer. The critism published in Poland during the cold war was dismissed as communist propaganda. The recent critism by Overmans and Haar is unknown in the English speaking world except for Wikipedia.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

IMO Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)# Historiography needs to outline the recent writings of Haar describing the political bias re expulsion issue in post war West Germany.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:25, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm reading articles by Hahn and Hahn who define "The Myth of Expulsion", which includes both fantastic idea of "German East" (without death and concentration camps) and inflated numbers of victims. Xx236 (talk) 13:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

My Polish is limited, I ask that editors who read Polish contribute to the article using Stanisław Jankowiak, Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej w polityce władz polskich w latach 1945-1970, p.91, Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, Warszawa 2005, ISBN 83-89078-80-5. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:35, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Hahn and Hahn has not yet arrived at the New York Public Library, when it does I will read.--Woogie10w (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I mean several articles printed in Poland in Prof. Hahn's volume. I don't have the Hahn and Hahn book either.Xx236 (talk) 06:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• [9]
• [10]
• [11]Xx236 (talk) 06:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
• Bibliography by Hans HahnXx236 (talk) 07:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Misquotation

I have ony recently realized that a quote from a book describing textbooks misinformed so I have removed it. I understand that "the biggest transfer" was the transfer of all people (after the war ?), not Germans only .Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Exchange of population between Poland and Germany after WWI

It was an exchange, Germans moved to Germany and Poles to Poland. Sources are needed.Xx236 (talk) 12:43, 29 September 2011 (UTC) [12] About 400 000 Polish workers emigrated from Germany after WWI to Poland and other countries. Xx236 (talk) 12:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Czech emigrants from Lower Silesia

There existed two places with Czech population till 1945 - de:Böhmischer Winkel and Gęsiniec. Thousands Czechs were deported to Germany, some of them went from Germany to Czechoslovakia. Does any German statistics mention the Czech people?Xx236 (talk) 11:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

neutrality tag

The article has a neutrality tag since March. I looked through the discussion from that time but could not find much that was relevant. Have these issues been resolved yet, and can the tag be removed ? --Lysy^talk 11:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Keep tag, we need to include the more recent studies by Hahn and Hahn as well as the Polish study by the IPN. That is a hint for the Polish editors. Get a copy of the IPN study. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Which one ? I may have it at hand. --Lysy^talk 16:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Stanisław Jankowiak, Wysiedlenie i emigracja ludności niemieckiej w polityce władz polskich w latach 1945-1970, p.91, Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, Warszawa 2005, ISBN 83-89078-80-5. My Poilsh is poor, I really have trouble without a dictionary, and even then I am slow----Woogie10w (talk) 17:45, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The real problem with this article is that editors rely on the internet for sources, Google books and self published web pages. Another issue is the POV in English language sources that accept the West German post war POV as gospel truth. What has been published in Poland and the Czech Rep since 1990 needs to be incorporated in the article. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:52, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

We really need to hear from the other side on this issue in order to give the article a NPOV. For example Polish sources I have seen put the number of Germans in Poland in mid 1945 at 4.5 million Na obszarach przejętych przez Polskę w 1945 r. znajdowało się w tym czasie 4,5–4,6 mln osób [13] see page 452. Lets do some math, Schieder says there were 5.650 million Germans east of Oder Neisse in mid 1945 he also says 650,000 were expelled, leaving 5.0 million Germans in early 1946. In Feb 1946 Poland counted 3,738,000 Germans and there were 150,000 in Soviet East Prussia. That leaves us with 1.1 million dead or missing Germans in a six month time frame, that means 6,000 expelee dead per day from mid 1945 to Feb 1946 if one uses the German figures! 6,000 civilian dead per day for 6 months is simply not credible. Why we must rely only on the academic sources that regurgitate Schieder's figures? Maybe LUDNOŚĆ POLSKI W XX WIEKU will help to offer a balanced POV here.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:51, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know any Polish book directly opposing Schieder. Nitschke quotes Schieder. We have one Polish-German book available in German - Our land has become foreign. It doesn't use the word "Vertreibung" and it explains why.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

According to Pitor Eberhardt in POLITICAL MIGRATIONS IN POLAND 1939-1948 on page 54 The issue here considered was not presented in Polish literature in a very reliable manner, neither. The losses of the German civilian population were neglected and treated, even if implicitly, as the justified compensation for the wrongs suffered by the Poles, displaced here and there over the entire period of the World War II. Currently, efforts are made to achieve a higher degree of objectivity. Evidence to the point is constituted by the report published recently in Torun (B. Nitschke 2000). [14]--Woogie10w (talk) 12:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know Nitschke's work (published sevral times) she quotes de Zayas and I doubt she has done anything since 2000. "AS higher degree" of quoting Schieder's vision.Xx236 (talk) 17:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

External links

Do we need two links showing two pictures? The pictures may be available in Commoms area.Xx236 (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC) I have added two Commons definitions pointing to hundreds or thousands of pictures.Xx236 (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. I have removed superfluous external links to individual photos. --Lysy^talk 16:30, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia

According to German Wikipedia "drei Millionen Deutsche und kollaborante Tschechen" have been expelled. An interesting comment to "expulsion of Germans".Xx236 (talk) 12:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

How do German statistics detail the Czechoslovak population in 1939? I have a copy of the 1958 West German demographic analysis and the Schieder Commission reports and have internet access to the 1941-1942 Statistisches jahrbuch für das Deutsche reich which details the results of the Nazi 1939 census. The entire basis for the computation in 1958 of estimated German expulsion losses for Czechoslovakia was the the 1939 Nazi census in Sudetenland and a 1941 Nazi estimate of the population in Bohemia-Moravia based on ration cards issued. I also have a photocopy of this Nazi document re Bohemia-Moravia. The 1958 West German report did not take into account the 1930 Czechoslovak census which is detailed by Pitor Eberhardt in Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe: History, Data, Analysis. I also own a copy of the Eberhardt book. Academic sources cited cited in this Wikipedia article tell us that in 1939 there were 3.5 million Germans in Czechoslovakia, 272,000 were killed in the expulsions and that 3.0 million were listed as expellees in 1950. These academic sources do not tell their readers the statistical basis of the 1958 German demographic analysis and the Schieder Commission report. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Czech-German comittee gives the number of dead about 10 times lower than 272,000 .Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

http://dspace.knihovna.utb.cz/bitstream/handle/10563/12885/gr%C3%A1c_2010_bp.pdf?sequence=1 Xx236 (talk) 08:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting link however the author uses the figures from the 1939 Nazi census for the German population. If you use the allocation of the 1930 census by Pitor Eberhardt in Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe one derives a figure of 160,000 fewer Germans in 1939.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it's a German language essay, not a historiographical work.Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Death marches (Holocaust)

This article does not inform, that Death marches (Holocaust) were parallel to the Flight. German victims of the marches might have been added to "Expulsion" ones.Xx236 (talk) 14:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

that makes no sense at all when one uses a population balance to determine losses. If one counts actual deaths and the missing it could be true. Overmans has pointed out that that the Church Service count of the dead and missing includes non Germans; He also said the Church Service count on the other hand may have missed actual deaths because there were no surviving witnesses to report the deaths. In any case Overmans believes that these losses need to subject to "serious revision" that is done by experts not by amatuers.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

"Zeitschrift fur Geschichtswissenschaft", nr 1, 2010, Kurt Nelhiebel opposes Manfred Kittel, the president of "Fluch, Vertreibbung, Versoenung" foundation. The Polish translation is available in the net.Xx236 (talk) 18:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Tomasz Kamusella

Should we still use this Tomasz Kamusella as a source? He claims 7.7 million Germans were expelled from Poland and that millions died in the process. He cites no sources for the figures, IMO he lacks credibility. See page 29 of the Pauser paper [15]--Woogie10w (talk) 00:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC) I have already criticised the story by Kamusella. He apparently means all Germans (?) who left to-day Poland, so Flight and Expulsion.Kamusella is a radical Silesian, he in't interested in history of the whole Po1land.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

a radical Silesian I far as I know they speak a dialect of substandard Polish. Many Poles here in Brooklyn speak various uneducated dialects, I was warned not to imitate them--Woogie10w (talk) 11:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not the problem of language but of "we Upper Silesians are victims of Poles" after WWII, Auschwitz, Silesians in Nazi administration in occupied Poland. Silesians were imprisoned eg. in Central Labour Camp Jaworzno together with Ukrainians and Poles. History of Upper Silesia is very complicated.Xx236 (talk) 12:27, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

PAS numbers

German POWs and miners worked in the SU at 1950, many of them from "Poland".Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The Soviets Captured 60,277 Polish nationals in the German uniform, 57,149 were returned and 3,128 died in captivity. Source[16]

In 2009 IPN reported 250,000 polish citizens were conscripted into the German forces Source Wojciech Materski and Tomasz Szarota. Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami.Institute of National Remembrance(IPN) Warszawa 2009 ISBN 978-83-7629-067-6

Overmans reported 29,000 POW still held by USSR in 1950. German Red Cross reported in 1964 that in 1950 7,500 German POW were held in Soviet camps after being convicted of war crimes

The Russian scholar Pavel Polian in 2001 published an account of the deportations of German civilians for reperations labor during the Soviet era, Against Their Will, Polian's study detailed the Soviet statistics on the employment of German civilian labor during the Stalin era. Polian's data points out Soviet records state that they repatriated 21,061 Polish citizens from labor camps which indicates that not all of the internees were ethnic Germans and some could have been ethnic Poles

The 1958 German demopraphic study estimated 108,000 Poilsh nationals died in the German Armed forces during the war.

The bottom line is that some of these people were like the grandfather of Donald Tusk and considered themselves Poles, others on the other hand others were former POW that I knew in Germany 40 years who were still pro-Nazi. Just because a person can speak Polish does not make them a Pole--Woogie10w (talk) 11:17, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I mean all area in post-war Poland, so mainly etnic Germans.Xx236 (talk) 12:15, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

According to German prisoners of war in the Soviet Union the 29,000 is valid in the second half of 1950. "the ultimate fate of 1,300,000 German POW's in Allied custody is still unknown".Xx236 (talk) 12:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Adenauer had succeeded in concluding negotiations for the release to Germany, by the end of that year, of 15,000 German civilians and prisoners of war." - year 1955.Xx236 (talk) 13:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Post-war Lithuania and Ukraine expelled

Soviet Union did, Lithuania and Ukraine performed what they were told to do.Xx236 (talk) 09:50, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This is off topic IMO--Woogie10w (talk) 10:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC) There were no Lithuania or Ukraine, so they weren't able to expell. But yes - let Lithuanians and Ukrainains decide themselves, they know better. Xx236 (talk) 12:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources in the lead

The lead quotes however three sources and demands one.Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, what's the problem ? --Lysy^talk 14:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

See the second line of the source text of the article, it contains the phrase which used to be the title of this thread. Either we respect the suggestion or we remove the line from the source text.Xx236 (talk) 06:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Do we remove the comment or the references?Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

German Nazi prisoners outside Germany

Is there any statistics of German prisoners, like Erich Koch? He may be regarded as a victim of expulsion, born in Eastern Prussia, hasn't arrived to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

1941 Soviet plans

...schon 1941 von ... einer territorialen Entschädigung Polens durch die deutschen Gebiete östlich der Oder die Rede war.

http://www.sehepunkte.de/2010/02/17357.html Xx236 (talk) 09:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Martin Brozat

I agree with the change made by User:HerkusMonte Based on this article in Die Zeit [17] it appears that Martin Brozat was not an active member of the Nazi party in his adult life. A party card in his name was issued in 1944 while he was a student. Die Zeit points out that the Nazis pressured people to join the party in mass numbers during the war. Brozat has no recollection of his induction into the NSDAP as a teenager, and in any case did not play an active role in the party. It would be misleading to characterize Brozat as a Nazi, in fact his writings as an adult strongly condemn their policies. Brozat cannot be classed with others who had a direct role in Nazi policy, like Schieder, de:Wilfried Krallert and de:Fritz Valjavec Woogie10w (talk) 19:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

some German civilians were killed in the fighting and others were subjected to revenge

How many were killed in the fighting (by tanks, bombs, artillery) and how many were subjected to revenge?

• Wrocław, Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II - 18,000 people froze to death in icy snowstorms and −20 °C (−4 °F) weather. By the end of the Siege of Breslau, ... An estimated 40,000 civilians lay dead in the ruins - no sources
  • http://www.rogermoorhouse.com/article3.html Moorhouse "the initial evacuation claimed a total of 18,000 lives, mainly of the very young and the infirm. In all, some 90,000 Breslauers were to perish trying to leave the city.", "Civilian deaths totalled 30,000 with over 3,000 suicides." - during the siege. It makes 120 000 civilian casualties in Breslau, more than 10%.Xx236 (talk) 09:52, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, but the self published web page provides no sources for the figures--Woogie10w (talk) 10:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC) Lecture delivered to the History Faculty, Oxford University, October, 2001 isn't exactly "a self-published". Roger Moorhouse is a co-author of the "Microcosm", which describes the siege of Breslau and probably quotes the sources.Xx236 (talk) 10:45, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• Evacuation of East Prussia- about 300,000 were killed during the Soviet offensiveXx236 (talk) 11:36, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Allegedly "Andreas Kossert, Damals in Ostpreussen, p. 168, München 2008 "Xx236 (talk) 12:59, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Kossert does not make such a claim and we do not use Kossert as a source for that claim, sorry. HerkusMonte (talk) 11:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting who manipulates Evacuation of East Prussia ?Xx236 (talk) 11:16, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Please provide sources for those figures, --Woogie10w (talk) 12:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC) The sources are probably in the quoted articles. If not, let's remove them.Xx236 (talk) 12:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I will check at the New York Public Library to verify those figures. Stay tuned

In any case per the Polish figures the Germans remaning in mid 1945 4.5-4.6 million; 3.155 million transported out to Germany ie. expelled and 1.2 million remained in 1950. Do the math, at least 200,000 died in internment camps or were killed after the war!--Woogie10w (talk) 13:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Many of the Germans were transported to Soviet Union or imprisoned in Soviet camps in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 09:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC) Germans were transported to Soviet Union or imprisoned in Soviet camps in Poland- Before May 1945--Woogie10w (talk) 10:04, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

And your source is? Camp Toszek de:NKWD-Lager Toszek was organized in May. Łabędy camp de:Internierungslager Laband existed probably till 1946. Big areas of Poland were occupied by the Red Army till 1990, so we don't know what was going on there. Hundreds of Poles were murdered after the war during the Augustów roundup, why not the Germans ?Xx236 (talk) 10:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

And my sources are

In mid 1945 4.5 to 4.6 million Germans were on Polish territory.

Stran 452 Na obszarach przejętych przez Polskę w 1945 r. znajdowało się w tym czasie 4,5–4,6 mln osób. W

Ludność Polski w XX wieku / Andrzej Gawryszewski. Warszawa : Instytut Geografii i Przestrzennego Zagospodarowania im. Stanisława Leszczyckiego PAN, 2005. Page 312 and Pages 452 to 466

155,262 German civilians deported from Poland to the USSR in early 1945

Pavel Polian-Against Their Will: The History and Geography of Forced Migrations in the USSR Central European University Press 2003 ISBN 963-9241-68-7 Pages 286-293

--Woogie10w (talk) 10:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

As I have quoted at least two Soviet camps worked in Poland after the war and people were dying in the camps or after "liberation". Xx236 (talk) 10:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

200 000 in post-war Poland is a detail. The first estimate was executed in 1946 and first census in 1950. pl:Spis sumaryczny w 1946 Any 1945 demographic data are unreliable. Xx236 (talk) 10:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Na obszarach przejętych przez Polskę w 1945 r. znajdowało się w tym czasie 4,5–4,6 mln osób. perfectly but the next sentence says that only 3.5 million of them were German and 1 million Polish (both real Poles and "autochtoni"). Xx236 (talk) 11:00, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

only 3.5 million of them were German, and 3,155,000 were deported to Germany and 170,000 were still in Poland in 1950 That leaves 175,000 unaccounted for--Woogie10w (talk) 11:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You cannot do elementary school arithmetics using approximate numbers, it's statistics. I don't know if any source gives serious estimates of errors of the demographic numbers. Xx236 (talk) 11:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC) Demography - "More generally, while the basic demographic equation holds true by definition, in practice the recording and counting of events (births, deaths, immigration, emigration) and the enumeration of the total population size are subject to error. So allowance needs to be made for error in the underlying statistics when any accounting of population size or change is made." - it's about peace time, not about the war in the East.Xx236 (talk) 11:38, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Based on our discussion, I think we are in agreement. The figures are by no means certain and new research by experts is necessary to determine the actual losses. At this point sources written in the English and German languages use the 1950's figures of Schieder and the 1958 Bonn study. West Germany in the 1950's was part of the "free world" engaged in the struggle against communism. The analysis published in Poland was dismissed as communist propaganda. From the POV of Wikipedia Bonn's figures are reliable because they are cited by scholars and published by academic presses. We have Overy, Beevor, Rummel and Pauser going to the reference bookshelf looking up Bonn's 1950's figures and then regurgitating them for readers. Yet Overy, Beevor, Rummel and Pauser do not seem to be aware that Overmans and Haar have recently critized the 1950's figures of Schieder and the 1958 Bonn study. Please tell us, what has Institute of National Remembrance written regarding the actual losses?--Woogie10w (talk) 12:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Gdańsk

http://www.zdsk.republika.pl/opracowania/wysiedlenie_niemcow.html Xx236 (talk) 12:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Help me, my Polish is limited. Please summarize the main points that would be of use in this article--Woogie10w (talk) 12:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• June the 30, 1945 - 123 900 Germans
• July the 31, 1945 - 107 200
• Organized deportations - July 1945.
  • One train - forced deportation
  • One train, July the 27 - the majority volunteered

Summarizing - till November the 1 - 61 451 deported, 16 000 emigrated individually. The table shows ethnic division of Gdańsk population.

• 1946 - 22 934 deported
• 1947 - more than 1100 deported
• end of 1948 - 15 205 autochtons lived in Gdańsk.

Up to 5% Germans died during the transport, the reasons were bad conditions and ilnesses.

The last phrase comes from "God's playground" - my simplified translation: "For the first time common Germans were treated like all other East and Central Europe citizens had been" (during the war).Xx236 (talk) 13:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I have the book, on waht page does tis appear?--Woogie10w (talk) 10:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

N. Davies, Boże igrzysko. Historia Polski, t. II, Kraków 1991, s. 700 - page 700, vol. 2 in 1991 Polish edition Xx236 (talk) 11:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC) This Polish translation is also at NYPL, I need to check this because I cannot find the 5% figure in the original English version--Woogie10w (talk) 12:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The last phrase of the article is quoted after the ":" sign. I have added the 5% phrase only today, the article doesn't give the source of the number.Xx236 (talk) 12:48, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Which article? Davies does not have a 5% phrase, --Woogie10w (talk) 12:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes I see it now

Zmasowany charakter przesiedlenia i jego gwałtowne tempo powodowały negatywne następstwa. Do najbardziej tragicznych należała wysoka śmiertelność wśród przewożonych Niemców. Dochodziła ona do 5%. Przyczyną były warunki transportowania ludzi oraz niski stan zdrowotności ludności niemieckiej

My translation "Resettlement was on on a large scale and resulted in negative consequences. Tragic was the high death rate of the Germans. Rate reached 5%. Reasons were conditions in transit and poor health of the Germans." These are the words of a Polish source, not BvD propaganda or Steinbach.

I have found the Polish source and quoted the 5%.Xx236 (talk) 14:06, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

5% of the 4.5 million in mid 1945 is about 200,000; add 100,000 during the war Jan-May 1945 and 50,000 in Soviet forced labor and 50,000 in Kalingrad and we get about 400,000, the figure cited by Haar for Oder-Neisse that is far more reasonable than the 2 million figure of Schieder.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Also most of the losses occured in 1945, Per the Polish census of Feb 1946 there were 2.288 million Germans, from 1946-50 2.336 million were deported. It seems that most of the losses occur in 1945 when Europe was in a state of chaos.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:31, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

"Up to 5%" means less than 5% and is an estimate for Gdańsk, situated several days of railway transport to Oder at that time. It's probably much lower for Germans living near the Oder-Neisse line, some of whom moved inside pre-war cities only. The notorious camps existed in 1945 and a number of pogroms took place also in 1945. But I still don't know who counted living and dead Germans in Gdańsk in 1945 after the Soviet massacers.Xx236 (talk) 07:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

No way Jose, railway transport to the Oder from Danzig is less than a day, I know since I have traveled the railways in Poland--Woogie10w (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

In 1945? The trains had low priority, lower than Soviet or Polish army and lower than standard trains.Xx236 (talk) 10:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The trains had low priority Starving German civilians, mostly women and children, were packed into freight cars and left standing on the rail lines. The Nazis did the same thing during the war to millions of other people in Europe. --Woogie10w (talk) 11:11, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Sure, bad Poles travelled in Orient Express class cars but packed women and children into freight cars (it's irony). Poles travelled from the Soviet Union and died in comparable conditions. The same trains transporting Germans to Germany transported liberated prisoners or forced workers from Germany to Poland. Inside Poland many people travelled outside cars. There is also an elementary difference between being transported to a gas chamber or a concentration camp and to Western Germany. Zieliński brothers escaped to Sweden under a track in 1985. Xx236 (talk) 11:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

So I was told- Back then(in the 1980's) some Poles went to the Archives to see if their family was on the Volksliste so they could emigrate to Germany--Woogie10w (talk) 12:52, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The same period described by Germans living in Poland in Polish [18] and German [19].Xx236 (talk) 11:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Per the article in Polish główną jej przyczyną jest niedożywienie oraz katastrofalne warunki sanitarne w jakich ta ludność przebywała High death rate due to maluntrition and unsanitary conditions. This a Polish source, not BvD propaganda--Woogie10w (talk) 12:20, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Would you please remeber the context - lack of educated Poles to organize local administration (educated Poles had been murdered or emigrated), Communist persecutions of conservative Poles especially pre-war activists and clercks, destruction of Polish police by the Germans and Soviets and post-war persecutions, new police accepting "socially progresive" criminals, lack of resources as the result of the war, German occupation and Soviet robbery. If Poles were discriminated during 5 years one needed UNO forces to defend the Germans and Red Cross deliveries to feed them 1945, but there was no UNO and little Red Cross. The life in Western Germany wasn't also an eden at that time, even if the USA had almost unlimited resources and no Soviet army to feed and deliver watches. Weak Poles starved during the war, weak Germans survived but lost their priviledges in 1945 and died. Germans refused also to live the way they made Slavs to live and thousands committed suicide.Xx236 (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

A good analysis, IMO we need to incorporate those points in the article using reliable sources. The war is over with, today most Poles and Germans want reconciliation. We need to include what are Poish sources telling us about these events--Woogie10w (talk) 14:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

_____________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I plan to check the book cited below soon at the New York Public Library I would hope the editors from Poland can also contribute using this book

Wysiedlenia, wypędzenia i ucieczki 1939-1959 : atlas ziem Polski : Polacy, Żydzi, Niemcy, Ukraińcy / redakcja atlasu, Witold Sienkiewicz, Grzegorz Hryciuk ; autory tekstów, Grzegorz Hryciuk ... [et al.]. Imprint Warszawa : Demart, 2008

--Woogie10w (talk) 02:48, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Polish books generally describe situation under Polish rules, so they don't discuss the Flight and Soviet-German fights. Xx236 (talk) 07:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I will find out soon what the book has to offer, lets hope we can use it here on Wikipedia. I may need Poilsh help with the text--Woogie10w (talk) 10:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

IPN about crimes against Germans and Poles persecuted as Germans [20].Xx236 (talk) 12:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Unsere Heimat

Volume IV/1 is available as .pdf file, see the article. The other volumes are listed here: https://www.herder-institut.de/no_cache/startseite/verlagsprogramm/schriftenreihen/shop/kategorieansicht/kategorie/quellen-zur-geschichte-und-landeskunde-ostmitteleuropas.html Xx236 (talk) 12:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

2010 book

Migracje polityczne na ziemiach polskich (1939-1950) [21]. My first impression - nothing new. Old Polish numbers, quotes from Nitschke, mentioned Overmans and Haar.Xx236 (talk) 06:48, 22 October 2011 (UTC) [22] - 2006 version.Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Soviet soldiers - "rape and murder"

And robbery, eg. watches. The Soviets raped sometimes even Soviet women.Xx236 (talk) 07:39, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

According to Anthony Beevor Russian and Polish women and girls liberated from concentration camps were also violated. [23] --Woogie10w (talk) 11:29, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Nazi officials sent to administrate occupied territories and removed after 1945 counted as expelled?

According to Adenauer's Germany and the Nazi Past: The Politics of Amnesty and Integration by Norbert Frei page 44, Nazi officials who were removed from the East were counted by West Germany as expelled. They also received pensions as compensation it seems.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:59, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Administrative officials and resettlers are considered expellees under German law, including Erika Steinbach and her family. However in the often cited 1958 West German population balance they are not included in the balance of 11.9 million expelled and 2.225 million missing and presumed dead. Gerhard Reichling in 1985 made an estimate of 560,000 Reich Germans and 370,000 Administrative officials being present in Poland in early 1945, his estimate of 2 million dead includes these Administrative officials and Reich Germans.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you give source that the 1958 count made by former Nazis doesn't include Nazi administration and officials in numbers? --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Also in any case we need to mention this and the compensation issue for occupation staff. An aftermath section is also needed to cover the activity of the expelled organisations and their influence on post-1945 politics and territorial demands against Eastern and Central Europe, as well as inclusion of former Nazis in political system using their political channels.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

You wrote Can you give source that the 1958 count made by former Nazis doesn't include Nazi administration and officials in numbers? Yes, the 1958 report( which I have) includes only the estimated 1939 population and natural increase in the population from 1939-1950. Administrative officials and Reich resettlers are definitely not in the balance of 11.9 million expelled and 2.225 million missing and presumed dead. Heinz Nawratil for example arrives at his figure of 2.8 million dead by adding an additional 250,000 Administrative officials and Reich resettlers and 350,000 Soviet Germans to the 1958 figure of 2.2 million dead.--Woogie10w (talk) 12:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Molobo has raised important point. The whole issue of who is an expellee in the eyes of German law needs to be clarified in the article. I will provide an update breaking out the different categories of expellees.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:49, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have added details on the categories of "expellees" in the context of German law and a brief summary comparing the various death toll estimates. Thank you Molobo for raising the point of the German resettlers who got expelled from Poland. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

academic discourse

"There is still a academic discourse regarding the validity of the methods and their results" - what does the source in regard to this exactly?VolunteerMarek 18:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed, Overmans covers the differnt methods and their results in his 1994 presentation at Warsaw--Woogie10w (talk) 18:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I know, but does he say that there is still on going academic discourse on the validity of methods and results. If so, I'm fine with that, but I want to know what it is he says exactly.VolunteerMarek 18:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The discourse continues, the recent (2010) book by the Hahn's does a solid critical analysis. I only covered the their remarks in a cursory manner. --Woogie10w (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but does the source say the discourse continues? VolunteerMarek 21:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes: The German government puts the figure at 2 million, Haar and the Hahns at 500,000. Overmans wants new research. There is no consensus on a figure. In fact Overmans finds fault with both the higher and the lower numbers. The bottom line is that the issue is disputed.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

But the German government isn't an "academic". And the difference between Overmans and Haar and the Hahns is rather more specific then the difference between the population balance methods and the newer methods - which what the article is referring to. And again does Overmans explicitly state that the estimates are subject of an academic dispute?VolunteerMarek 21:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

the population balance method of 1958 comes up with a figure of 2.225 million, the body count of 1964 comes up with a figure of 473,000 dead and 1,906,000 missing . There is no newer method or figures to consider. They are 1964 Red Cross figures, not the recent work of Haars or the Hahn's.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

The estimates are subject of an academic dispute, there is no question about this point. English language academic sources like Stefan Pauser and Richard Overy regurgitate the figure of 2 million, it is a reality that can’t be denied. Only in German academic sources is the figure of 500,000 mentioned. We need to put that figure of 2 million on the page and subject it to the critical analysis of Overmans, Harr and the Hahn’s. --Woogie10w (talk) 22:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

English language sources dealing with the expulsions put the death toll at about 2 million based on the 1958 German government statistical analysis.

These are the sources that the folks in the English language section of the library will be consulting. The few who read German will be checking out Ingo Haar, Overmans and the Hahn's.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Mark Solonin

http://www.solonin.org/en/article_the-spring-of-victory Xx236 (talk) 09:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC) As far as I understand (there is a recent interview in "Rezczpospolita") - Stalin implemented the crime using the Red Army and NKVD. Polish Communist army and police organized "wild expulsions" but no author proved they participated in Soviet rapes and murders.

German sources mix up all casualties - standard war casualties, planned Soviet crimes, weather (winter) casualties, suicides, individual crimes moving the responsibility from Soviet leaders. Xx236 (talk) 09:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

IMO Solonin is not a reliable source for the simple reason he is a proponent of the discredited thesis of Icebreaker (Suvorov). To use this article by Solonin as a source will only bolster the arguments of the folks that seek to highlight the Soviet atrocities in 1945. BTW Solonin uses as his sources for Soviet atrocities the eye witnesses accounts from Schieder and the German Archives. Reading Solonin's rant reminded me of what Heinz Nawratil has written on the expulsions.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

"discredted thesis" - by whom? Which thesis exactly? That Stalin had the biggest offensive army of the world on the German border? He had such an army. Solonin has written his book twice as big as The Icebreaker so the book should be discussed separately.

The Soviets did terrible things. The problem with Germans is that they prefer to pretend that Poles and Czechs "expelled them", rather to point the Soviets. There is a monument of a Soviet soldier with a German girl in Treptow, there are Stalin's inscriptions there. Someone should finally say, as Solonin does, that Soviet soldiers raped German girls and Stalin was a criminal.Xx236 (talk) 16:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

"discredted thesis" - by whom? David Glantz. Case closed.--Woogie10w (talk) 17:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I doubt if Solonin advances exactly the same theory as Suvorov. Also, Glantz's study Stumbling Colossus mostly concentrates on perceived shortcomings of the Red Army, that according to him made a Soviet assault unthinkable. Well, Wehrmacht's deficiencies did not prevent Hitler from launching the Operation Barbarossa which ended with Soviet tanks reaching Berlin. As for Suvorov, his key points were that Stalin had been planning an offensive war, Hitler realized this and launched as a reaction a pre-emptive strike. This theory is indeed shared by hardly any serious scholar these days, but there are many authors (Meltyukhov comes to my mind), who - based on the documents declassified in 1990s in Russian archives - have reached the conclusion, that Stalin indeed had been planning an offensive, though Hitler's Operation Barbarossa did not result from Hitler's fear of such an offensive, but was planned independently of the Soviet preparations. There's some information on this in respective articles in Russian wiki [24], [25] and here. Estlandia (dialogue) 11:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Soviet war plans in 1941 is off topic on this page but I can’t resist the opportunity to comment. In 1941 Soviet armored forces were in a process of reorganization into the new Corps structure and were unable to conduct offensive operations. The war games in Moscow in early 1941 brought to light the shortcomings in the Soviet armed forces at that time. Also when the Germans attacked Soviet dispositions were in a peacetime mode; armor, infantry and artillery were in separate barracks undergoing regular training rather than deployed as unified combat units. In fact 2/3 of the 24,000 Soviet tanks were not ready for combat. Air force units were caught on the ground by the Luftwaffe.

Stalin miscalculated he felt that he had until 1942 to bring the Red Army up to a level to fight an anticipated war with Germany. Bear in mind that Soviet strategy always considered only offensive operations, never the defensive. The deep operations of Mikhail Tukhachevsky was boilerplate Soviet strategy in 1941. Soviet contingency plans led to the forward deployment of their forces that were poised to go over to offensive operations. That led to the disaster in 1941 when so many Soviet units were caught by surprise in the frontier military districts. In July-September 1941 outnumbered Soviet forces were always ordered to attack and engage the enemy, never to go over to the defensive.

--Woogie10w (talk) 12:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Please let me repeat, Soviet war plans in 1941 is off topic on this page. Lets drop this thread and enjoy the music.

[26]--Woogie10w (talk) 12:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Quote 267

"By 1943, for example, Polish and Czech politicians across the political spectrum were convinced of the desirability of the postwar expulsion of Germans." - Polish politicians demanded mostly mixed population lands and they believed that many German citizens wanted to be Polish, so the number of expected expellees was much below real numbers. Stalin gave Poland also purely ethnic German lands including big cities Stettin and Breslau. Xx236 (talk) 10:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)