Talk:Final Solution

Deletion of History of the Jewish Question?

Why was this deleted from the page? I translated it from the German wikipedia page on the subject, and it's all sourced and approved there, so why can't we have this in English too? If there's a good reason, please do make it clear. Thank you.

What about the Hitler's WMDs?

I didn't find the definition of the WMDs which were built by the Nazi regime in order to implement the Final Solution. Wouldn't be interesting to have some words about that topic for completing that article?Grizouk (talk) 10:56, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

WP successful at complete genocide

The Holocaust really needed the invention of another name, Porajmos: apparently, this article commits the most complete genocide of even the Roma that managed to survive the Endlösung. Further reading e.g. Sabo
​▲ SomeHuman 2011-07-31 06:43 (UTC)

Final_Solution

Moved from User tak:Antique Rose

In real live it is normal that people motivate there actions when they destroy work of others, further more your correction is way out outside the scope of the lemma. Because you are on Wikipedia it must be possible that you can read. It is original data I provide. Authentic text from original source. Pure facts. Real data. The way it really was. The how it all got to happen. Maybe Herzl needs to have a paragraph of its own as the inventor of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question. Because that is what he really was. Than you can put the data on an other place and add it with something extra. The text was carefully placed in between the lines. Not prominent placed so everybody can read for itself. Wikipedia is a lie now.

The Final Solution begins with Theodore Herzl. He starts talking about it in public. It his his idea. There was no problem with Jews. The Zionists created problems for the Jews. If you read his diaries you can see that he thinks great of his invention. He is really fund of himself. Can supply you with Quotes from Herzl copy/past from his original Dairies on my desk to become convinced that Wikipedia now is less than half the truth.

Zionist leader Theodore Herzl, the soul of Zionism, is also in favor of antisemitism, against democracy, against free speech and thankful for slavery. Herzl wrote it all down by himself in his Dairies. And article in the Jewish Chronicle and papers. It also is all written down in the original protocols of the First Zionist Congress at Basel. The Wannsee conference was nothing more than the Zionist program in progress. All hard coded historical facts. The way it all really happened

So pleas re do your unmotivated editing on Final_Solution. Wikipedia looks like a propaganda machine now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roetschild (talk • contribs) 17:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Herzl, an anti-Semite? No. Was he the inventor of the Final Solution? No. The Wannsee Conference, a Zionist conference? No. I'm afraid you've got it all wrong. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 00:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your repley. You give me the impression you have not read the article good enough. It is the first publication about the Final Solution published and in his dairies Herzl states that he is the inventor. So it is relevant. Please be more like a scientist on this than just reproducing the lies that everybody is beiing told. Here you have some mind blowing quotes from his dairies:

Blz 83: It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property.

Blz 84: The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.

Blz 110: For I have the solution of the Jewish Question.

Blz 118: I believe I have found the solution to the Jewish Question. Not a solution, but the solution, the only one.

Blz 132: The only possible, final, and successful solutions of the Jewish Question requires a billion francs.

Blz 132: We shall solve the Jewish Question by either safeguarding or liquidating the fortune of the wealthy Jews. If we cannot do it with the help of the wealthy Jews, we shall do it in spite of them.

Blz 143: I have already told you that we want to let respectable anti-Semites participate in our project, respecting their independence which is valuable to us – as a sort of people’s control authority.

Blz 170: But wherever opposition may appear, we shall break it down. Everywhere we shall try it with friendly persuasion, but if need be we shall push it through by brute force.

Blz 169: I am against democracy …

Blz 170: We shall impose extensive but firm limits on public opinion

It is going on and on. Five books full of this kind of crap from Herzl, The man who invented the Final Solution. And you have seen nothing yet, it is even worse.

I think you're way off. Please, stop this nonsense! Antique Rose — Drop me a line 22:59, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I think Wikipedia is a fraud now on this subject. These are real quotes from the real dairies from the real Theodore Herzl. Investigate before you tell me that I am way off. You have really no idea what really happened. How can Wikipedia ever be a good source of information if you delet the facts as they wore in real live. Herzl wanted to have antisemitism in Europe to further the Zionist cause of colonization of Palestine. It is all written down in his dairies, the books nobody read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roetschild (talk • contribs) 08:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Usage in German

I've heard German-speaking people use the term without the final "of the Jewish Question" in reference to other things (meaning the phrase "Final Solution" doesn't necessarily refer to the Holocaust); can a native speaker clarify this? Historian932 (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not native German. It is not needed to answer your question because the relevant publications are in English. Furthermore the discussion about this solution was international and not local in Germany. The phrase "Final” in 'Final Solution of the Jewish Question' comes directly from Zionist leader Theodore Herzl who invented "the Solution to the Jewish Question" and stated in his dairies that it was “the final" solution. This is Herzls article from 1896 about the Solution of the Jewish Question:

In his dairies he wrote: Blz 110: For I have the solution of the Jewish Question. Blz 118: I believe I have found the solution to the Jewish Question. Not a solution, but the solution, the only one. Blz 132: The only possible, final, and successful solutions of the Jewish Question requires a billion francs.

His dairies are all about this final solution. He for instance wrote: "we want to let respectable anti-Semites participate in our project, respecting their independence which is valuable to us – as a sort of people’s control authority."

And: "It would be an excellent idea to call in respectable, accredited anti-Semites as liquidators of property."

According to Herzl it was “to remove ... surplus Jews”. He uses these words “remove surplus Jews”. He also wanted Jews to shoot at each other and he (who is the founder of Israel) called Israel a “world getto”.

It is going on and on like this in the work of Herzl. The Final Solution of the Jewish Question can not be understood without reading the work of Zionist leader Herzl because he is the inventor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roetschild (talk • contribs) 19:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow! So Hitler, the Nazis and the German people really had nothing to do with the Final Solution, it was all the fault of the Jews after all! It's amazing, though, that Hitler would learn all this from Herzl, a Jew: are there any reliable secondary sources that make this claim? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You are jumping in to conclusions. WOII and the Final Solution was done by a consortium of people. Hitler was one of them. The above information is from the original (first hand) source. It is reliable because it directly supports the information as it is presented. A secondary source would be all the other reliable information (sources) that is available. There are an overwelming lot more original sources that prove the fact that Zionists, Americans and the Nazi's were partners in the same crime. There is the book Hitler's Secret Bankers with evidence that Hitler got his money (twenty ore thirty million ore so) in 1929 from the FED (Federal Reserve Banks - OMG), Rockefeller and other US based entrepreneurs and organizations. There is the medallion with on one side the Swastika and the other side the Moĝendovid. The Transfer Agreement. There is the statements of Herzl about the Rothschilds that they are financially in control of the five powers and that they are an international menace. The fact that Hitler came out of the 'umfeld' of Rothschild. The fact that Eichmann joined Zionist conventions. They had the same agenda. There is so much more to tell about the final solution and the people who were key role players. The symbiotic relation between SS and IG-Farben for example. Zionism was supported by the German SS and Gestapo. The Zionists declaration of war against Germany in 1933 before Hitler implemented his anti-Jewish regulations. So yes, Hitler got his inspiration and more from the Zionists. Zionist reliance on Anti-Semitism to further their goals continues to this day. Think about the linguistic similarity between Askenazi and Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roetschild (talk • contribs) 21:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I will ask one last time; are there any reliable secondary sources that make this claim? None of the sources you've brought qualify as a reliable source, and that's all we want here, reliable sources, not your personal theories. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:53, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you are not reliable and you are presenting a personal opinion. How reliable is reliable when the original quotes of the Zionist leaders are given where they state that the Zionists have to be allies with the anti-Semites? Read the Protocols of the Zionist Conventions. The Zionists rejected the human rights as the non chosen representatives of all Jews on earth. They were against Democracy. Thankful for slavery. There own words. There own theories. There own opinions. Zionists stated themselves before the war that is was there war to ruin Germany. Herzl writes himself that he is warned for his plan that he would cause the Jews harm with it. Five thousand pages of anti-semitism and preludes to wo2 in the dairies of Herzl. You can not understand Mein Kampf ore the Final Solution if you have not read the dairies of Zionist leader Herzl. Bet you never read those books of Herzl. Bet you never heard of it either. Before the war the Zionists were threatening everybody with war who were not with them. What I give above are all true historical facts. You can verify every bit of them by yourself. Even the Jews are telling these facts. Jews from Iraq were violently forced to immigrate to Israel by Zionists. Nobody told you that before on school. Did they? The general known history about the final solution is a blatant fraud. The book about Hitlers Bankers is authentic. The facts in it are true reliable facts. I myself have discussed it with forensic experts, it is true. And you must know that the Bush family also worked for the Nazi's. And everybody knows about IG-Farben, don't you? The deportation of the Jews by train is also part of the Zionist plan of Herzl. Read his dairies and you know that it was the Zionists who intentionally caused anti-semtism in Europa for the sake of the Holy Zionist Cause. Furthermore: it is very non-Jewish to have a Jewish State. According to the Jewish tradition Jews should live in the diaspora, because that is the will of G-d. I really think you know nothing about Jews, Zionism ore investigating facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roetschild (talk • contribs) 08:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

While it is true that Herzl used the term “final solution” (to the best of my knowledge, he used the term “final solution to the Jewish question” only once: in a letter to Tsar Nicolas II in 1899) he was referring to the creation of a Jewish state to which Jews could freely go to escape anti-semitism. It is grotesque to link this to the idea of a “final solution to the Jewish question” which set out in the beginning to forcibly remove all Jews from the Third Reich, in the first instance. Joel Mc (talk) 17:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do people keep on repeating what they have learned wrong? Nobody thinks for themselves. The idea of removing the Jews from Europe is from the Zionists in the first place. It was there idea. The method was to induce/provoke anti-semitism. Herzl explains everything in his work. Please study on what Jews are really like and read the work of Herzl. It is a grotesque chutzpah to link the idea of the “final solution to the Jewish" only to Hitler because it is linked to Herzl. And Herzl did not mention the term “final solution to the Jewish question” only once: in a letter to Tsar Nicolas II in 1899 (!). He also mentioned it in his dairies and he is very fund of his invention. He thinks highly about himself because of it. Everybody is fooled about the facts. Why do people make it a big issue when Hitler talks about the final solution and why do people not make any rumor about the fact that the Zionists were the one who came up with the idea in the first place? They also funded Hitler and declared war against Germany in 1933 to ruin Germany. It can all be traced back to the Zionists. Anti-semitism got lesser and lesser over time in Europa after the France Revolution and Rousseau. That was a problem for the project of Herzl to colonize Palestrina. Satisfied Jews could not “yield” the Zionists “fresh immigrants”.

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.” Herzl wanted the problems for the Jews to happen. Herzl stated in his diary:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”.

Is there more prove needed for the corruption of Zionism? Please be aware of the fact that Zionism en Judaism are not the same thing. Zionists do not represent Jews. It is a big mistake to think of Zionists as Jews. Judaism is a religion. Zionism is a political ideology of infidels. Judaism forbid Jews to want to have a Jewish State. Zionists collaborate with Nazi's and induce anti-semitisme to get a world ghetto for Jews. Do you get it? Herzl called Israel a world ghetto and he was against everybody who did not support the Holly Cause of Zionism. Please do your home work. There is so much more to know than the blatant lies that are being told in history class. --Roetschild (talk) 19:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Roetschild, please review WP:NOTAFORUM. Wikipedia is not interested in your conspiracy theories. If you have any reliable sources, please present them. Otherwise, do not post here. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I have reviewd WP:NOTAFORUM. You wanted reliable sources. I give you reliable sources. You apparently do not want to know the reliable sources: hard coded data from the reliable sources. Wikipedia is a lie now. We do not want our Wikipedia to be a lie. Do we? I want to discuss how to improve articles on the final solution and you do not even want to get in to the data. You give your own personal opinion that you prefer over the reliable sources. You even think that you add something to Wikipedia by calling the reliable sources a 'conspiracy theory'. That is very much against what Wikipedia stands for. Comes in to handy does it, to call the things that does not recognize the reliable sources you think you know a conspiracy? Easy way of getting ride of the truth these days with all those conspiracies. Santa Claus also does not exist. Hope you are aware of that fact of live. Go ahead with propaganda, be as stubborn as you can be.--Roetschild (talk) 19:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It is easy to improve the article final solution without chancing everything and without people thinking that Wikipedia is in to conspiracies. It is a fact that Herzl made important contributions to the discussion about the final solution. He can be quoted from his dairies, his letter and article in the Jewish Chronicle as the first who came up with the idea. He himself writres in his daries that he invented the final solution of the Jewish Question so Wikipedia can respect him for that. --Roetschild (talk) 19:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

As explained already, Herzl's diaries are a primary source. What you are proposing is original research. For the last time, you must provide secondary sources that meet Wikipedia's reliable source requirements. Only that. If you instead post your personal views here again, you will be blocked. That's very simple. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Terrorable Bias

The discussion of this final solution out of its context is to repeat the conditions that made it happen. The general context is that because so many people died in the process, that a great amount of evil was involved, and collective guilt should be dealt out and with. This was much of the rationale of what happened after the war (which is nowhere addressed here).

Such things have been happening for a long while. The trans-atlantic slave trade, for example, was fuelled by persons displaced by assorted ethnic clearing in the west of africa.

In essence, one might suppose that some sort of problem or blame is to be laid out on some kind of people. (In the Jew's case, the root cause is that they killed Jesus). For that reason, one then supposes that these people are then 'sub-human', and ought be treated as such, for example, disconnecting them of their place in society, taking their possessions and places, and treating them as stateless beings. Then comes the filtering out of these people from society, and transporting them elsewhere. Of course, once one dumps people elsewhere, they become some-one elses problem.

The germans, having no elsewhere to dump them, had little other choice than to kill them.

One might note that the relative racial purity of countries like poland and the czech republic is exactly as examples of this, even down to the use of the 'final solution' metaphor. In these cases, the final act was trains of displaced people leaving places like prague and stettin, headded for other countries, where they might be unloaded much as one unloads coal. Poland, for example, managed to unload the entire portion of its Jewery, inherited in part from Czarist russia etc, by exporting them.

It is as every part to say, that the removal of minorities from these countries, from Russia, and other places, is every bit a 'final solution' as being presented here. In many cases, these were supported by the allies, and for this reason, one does not see any reference to 'guilty parties' etc in the 'expulsion of the germans from east europe', although there were indeed such.

While one sees the details of the various death factories ran in poland, one does not see any sort of refence to say, katlyn, where the bodies of 'displaced victims' are piled twelve deep.

In terms of the evil involved. Once one decides these victims become sub-human, the treatment of these victims become not much different to other livestock movements, be it the trans-atlantic slave trade, or russian prisioners heading for siberia, or british convicts on their way to australia, or jews heading for poland, or minorities expelled from eastern europe.

In short, the processing is not much different to the bulk killing of animals in abbitiors, or the sort of justification that one can wander around in Castle Wolfenstein killing what might come.

More over, the presentation seems to imply that the work is result of germans only, rather than many other nationalities who also had similar hatreds against the jews, but not the necessary will to undertake this.

I am no apologist for this event. Yet, to ensure that it does not happen again, we must not treat it as an isolated event. The means and methods existed for many people to do this, and even to this day, there are various events of this scale (cambodia, armenia-in-turkey, the kurds in iran, etc), where this activity goes without glance, because we are focused on this event in isolation.

And it is very much because this event is examined in isolation, that the allies let equally terrible events to happen.

Wendy.krieger (talk) 07:36, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Consider this from [Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia_during_and_after_World_War_II|Czechs] In the months following the end of the war "wild" expulsions happened from May till August 1945. Czechoslovak President Beneš on October 28, 1945 called for the "final solution of the German question" (Czech: konečné řešení německé otázky) which would have to be "solved" by deportation of the ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia.

It includes 'final solution', without necessarily considering it that the population be killed. 'Final solution' here as elsewhere means removal of the offending population. We do not, for example, see a parade of guilty people for this, and the common excuse given of 'collective guilt' is exactly what anti-semeticism is based on. That is, that the expulsion of people by the allies, say, by abandoning people at the railway stations at Munich and Hamburg, is pretty much identical a crime as those of the Nazis, yet it serves no good for allied historians to render their soldiers and polititians in the same light as the germans.

What is happening here is that the final solution of the Jews is being looked at in isolation. The idea that the 'final solution' ought mean death etc, and even by the history of the Jewish question, the question never really meant death until they ran out of places to deport. None of this is given prominance. Nor, say is the willingness of peoples of other countries to cooperate with the Germans.

Part of the problem in first, capitalising "final solution" here, and secondly supposing that it means something different to every other occurance of "final solution", is precisely the sort of stuff that goes on to make this sort of thing happen, in the past and in the future.

And, for repeating this structure in isolation, one is making exactly the same conditions that caused the problem in the first place: terrible crime + collective guilt = need for a final solution.

So what I am saying, is that this should be treated as any other event in the second world war: either there should be listed "Guilty parties" in the other events, or more likely, that the notion of "guilty parties" be removed from here. It is really more akin to what happens when progroms happen on an industrial scale. Wendy.krieger (talk) 07:41, 9 January 2012 (UTC)