Talk:First Indochina War

Soviet war in Afghanistan

funny yet not surprising to point out the USA are mentioned in the combattant list in the Soviet war in Afghanistan with a custom "supported by". supported by? what did the US and chinese in indochina if not supporting their respective allies?! they even came into field action at dien bien phu. i still suggest to add the us and chinese as supporters, to keep not doing so per censorship (actually by shame) is ridiculous. strangely the us were on the "victor" side in afghanistan, surprised er? Paris By Night 17:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Well not really suprising, Soviet Withdrawal was the aim of the US when they gave weapons to the guerillas. It depends on your definition of "being involved". The Mozambican War of Independence for example doesn't list the Soviet Union as a combatant because troops did not officially take part (although there may have been advisors, and there were certainly weapons) however China was very muc involved in the First Indochina War in terms of supplying weapons and/or training staff, and the USA did the same to the French, but on a lesser scale. The Americans were reluctant to get involved in comparison to their early 1960s involvement, even being reluctant to provide aircrews for Dien Bien Phu at many stages ofthe siege, and advisors were always assessing the reliability of the French position there. However, I have never read anything that said they took part in fighting in IndoChina officially, rather than advisors being caught in firefights when they aren't supposed to. Why not open it to a vote below? SGGH ^speak! 17:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Operation Camargue‎

I have written the above article about one of the largest operations of the conflict to drive Reg. 95 out of RC1. I am hoping to FAC it sometime soon, and would appreciate comments at its peer review and/or helpful edits to the article! Thanks SGGH ^speak! 17:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed uncited statement until cite is found

I have removed the following from the "war crimes" section:

Viet Minh artillery assaults on sanitory aerial convoys and medical centers at Dien Bien Phu.

I'm not quite sure what a sanitory aerial convoy is... if it is a reference to planes that, while landing at Dien Bien Phu with red crosses marked on them, were shelled by the surrounding Viet-Minh artillery, then I don't think we can have that uncited in a war crimes section unless:

• It is cited to a acceptable, reliable source that specifically speaks of it as a war crime, or refers to the popular belief that it was a war crime.
• Mention is made of the delivery of arms and soliders that were, on occasions, either made in these red cross aircraft or at least believed to be by the Viet-Minh (ref: Martin Windrow, The Last Valley, or any other reliable source)

If the statement refers to the attack on the medical sections of convoys (and notable the destruction of GM 100 or GM 42, where, according to Bernard Fall, the doctor was taken to a camp along with the wounded but not allowed to operate on them, which meant they died) then this needs to be explained more fully, and also needs to be cited. I believe care is to be taken to ensure that these uncited events that are under a section called "war crimes" are there because RSs have said they were so, rather than a passionate-about-the-topic wiki-user saying they were so. SGGH ^speak! 17:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's organs

Someone put this "Stalin's organs were successfully used against the outpost. Together with China, the Soviet Union sent 2,000 military advisors to train the Viet Minh guerrilla and turn it into a fully organized army". Here, "Stalin's organs" refers to Katuysha rockets and linked to the page about the rocket. I understand that a lot of people don't like Stalin but this kind of wording is just unacceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.58.85 (talk) 04:11, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It is a commonly used nickname, so I don't think there is any POV to it, however I agree that they proper term ought to be used for the sake of professionalism. SGGH ^speak! 11:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Dirty War

Could somebody source this please? I have heard it refered to in French as 'sale guerre', but that actually means bloody war (in the BE expletative sense), or stupid/annoying war, not dirty. For Dirty War, it would have to be Guerre Sale. Hrcolyer (talk) 12:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

sounds more like a reference to the Algerian one SGGH ^speak! 12:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The "dirty war" expression was indeed used by opponents to the war (mainly French communists and assorted sympathizers, although the term was originally used in a Le Monde editorial). It was actually "la sale guerre", as adjectives can be sometimes put in that order in French, depending on the context (the expression "guerre sale" exists in French, but here it was "sale guerre"; both expressions can be used to mean either "ugly/bloody/annoying war", or "dirty war"). The expression was used for both conflicts. Take note, however, that the Indochina war never raised the same level of opposition in France as the Algerian war did, as there were far fewer French civilians involved. JJ Georges (talk) 09:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Operation Camargue

The above contains my old transplated section on the background of the First Indochina War, which any user may feel free to borrow from if they find anything that might go well in the background section of this article, which needs a little bit of work. I'd hate to walk all over someone else's efforts, so I'll leave it for others to pick at. In fact, here it is below:

French Indochina had been absorbed into the French Empire in stages from the mid to late 18th century. Vietnamese anti-colonial resistance surfaced shortly after, and grew notably in 1905 under the leadership of Phan Boi Chau. Chau was deported several times, and placed under house arrest until his death in 1940, at which time Japan launched the invasion of French Indochina. Vichy French forces defended the colony in the French-Thai War from late 1940 until May 1941, which ended with territorial concessions to Thailand. Resistance to the Japanese occupation increased with growing popularity of the Viet Minh, who had provided food during the famine of 1945. At this time, Japan launched the Second French Indochina Campaign, ousted the Vichy government, and installed Bảo Đại as the leader of the Empire of Vietnam. The empire only survived until the August Revolution of August 16 1945 when the Viet Minh rose against Bảo Đại, abandoned by the Japanese since surrendering Vietnam, and ousted him in favor of a government centered in Hanoi, which later declared independence. After a brief interlude where a joint French-British task force was stationed in Saigon, the French General Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque arrived in Vietnam to reassert French governance over the Viet Minh. The First Indochina War had raged, as guerrilla warfare, since December 19, 1946. From 1949, it evolved into conventional warfare, due largely to the victory of the communists in the Chinese Civil War. The Viet Minh soon established close ties with the PRC, who provided much needed matériel and strategical planning support. Benefitting from the difficult terrain, and the flow of arms across the nearby border with the People's Republic of China ("PRC"), the Viet Minh succeeded in turning a "clandestine guerrilla movement into a powerful conventional army" able, for the first time, to confront a western army. Following a PRC-developed dual strategy, the Viet Minh operated guerrilla cells in the French-controlled areas and fielded conventional divisional-sized units in the "liberated zones" to the north. Throughout, the Viet Minh were assisted by PRC military advisers, seconded at battalion, regiment and divisional level. Against this, a French strategy of dispersing "forces in thousands of posts and garrisons scattered on all fronts to cope with [Viet Minh] guerrilla activity", particularly along the Vietnamese-Chinese border, proved ineffective. The French Expeditionary Corps was composed not only of French soldiers, but also of African forces (particularly from Morocco) and many pro-French Vietnamese, who freed up regular French forces from jungle garrison duty. Hand-in-hand with their troop build-up, the French sought aid from the United States to offset the increasingly crippling costs of the war. In March 1950, US president, Harry S. Truman, released US$15 million in aid. From then on, US aid (provided under the Mutual Defense Assistance Act) rapidly increased, amounting to US$2.7 billion by the conclusion of hostilities in 1954. Of this, about half (US$1.3 billion) was allocated to military equipment, sent in twice-weekly shipments to Saigon, with US$773 million expended in the four fiscal years of 1950–1953. Additionally, a further US$1.29 billion was provided by the US Direct Forces Support Program, and spent on purchasing arms and equipment within France for shipment to Indochina. By June 1953, "the United States had sent: 1,224 tanks and combat vehicles; 120,792 rifles and machineguns; more than 200 million rifle and machinegun cartridges; more than five million artillery projectiles; 302 boats and 304 aircraft". Since 1951, British and American advisory units in Saigon had recommended a move away from the dispersed forces strategy but the French high command was reluctant to change. In an escalation of hostilities during 1952, Viet Minh attacks that had originally remained around the Red River Delta moved into the Thai Highlands. It was only in December 1952, after victory at the battle of Na San, that the French high command become convinced that a new strategy – of strong ground bases, a versatile French Air Force and a model based on the British Burma campaign – would defeat the Viet Minh insurgents. The Viet Minh, however, remained unbeatable in the highland regions of Vietnam, and the French "could not offset the fundamental disadvantages of a road bound army facing a hill and forest army in a country, which had few roads but a great many hills and forests". In May 1953, with full US support, General Henri Navarre arrived to take command of the French forces, replacing General Raoul Salan. Navarre spoke of a new offensive spirit in Indochina, based on very strong, fast-moving mobile forces, and the media quickly took Operation Camargue to be a "practical realization" of that. At about the same time, reinforcements from "France, West Germany, North Africa and Korea were rushed to the Indochina front".

Hope someone could use. SGGH ^ping! 17:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Waffen SS involvement

I have heard of Waffen-SS troops fighting in the French Foreign Leion against the Communists. Is there any validity to this? And if so, could something be added? 76.250.191.28 (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

There were indeed former German soldiers fighting in the foreign legion. It is often (or was often) thought that Dien Bien Phu was a German battle as the majority of troops were German foreign legion (though this is not in fact the case). I suspect there were former SS troopers among them, though I suspect such information would belong in the article on the Foreign Legion rather than on this article in order to avoid adding undue weight to the fact that SS troops fought alongside the French so soon after WWII. SGGH ^ping! 14:10, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

this is either communist propaganda to discredit the french effort or a remote us perspective, first there were other units than foreign legion at dien bien phu (a simple check at the french union order of battle will prove this: airforce, naval aviation), airborne, cavalry, artillery, services) and there was the vietnamese national army too (TDND5 aka 5e BPVN/bawaouan airborne and 301st infantry battalion). also don't forget there were vichy french who fought as SS on the russian front, they would likely join the legion after wwii under a fake identity (that's the rule) to evade court. there were also other europeans in the legion like poles. besides the legion there were troops from senegal, algeria, morroco and indochina locals (including 2 Thai battalions) and laotian allies. plus the metropolitan french ("colonials" included )! seeing dbp as a ss-vietminh battle is pure fantasy. Cliché Online (talk) 22:05, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The German article claims 35000 Germans, not just ex SS but also ex Wehrmacht, to have fought in Vietnam. If this is credible it should at least be mentioned in the article since this number, while not being a majority of the troops, is still pretty massive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.53.210.99 (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Quote from p. 450 of Hell in Very Small Place:

Lastly there is the myth of Dien Bien Phu as a "German Battle," in which the Germans were said to have "indeed made up nearly half the French forces [Fall cites this quote as coming from Edgar O'Ballance's book The Indo-China War 1945-1954, Faber & Faber (1964) on p 237]."The statistical appendix will lay this to rest for good. On March 12, 1954 - the day before the battle began in earnest - there were a total of 2,969 Foreign Legionnaires in the fortress, out of a garrison of 10,814. Of the almost 4,300 parachuted reinforcements, a total of 962 belonged to the Foreign Legion. Even if one wrongly assumes (there were important Spanish and Eastern European elements among the Legionnaires at Dien Bien Phu) that 50 percent of the Legionnaires were German, then only 1900 men out of more than 15,000 who participated in the battle could have been of German origin. But old myths, particularly when reinforced by prejudice, die hard.

Quote from p. 453:

Ten years later, Col. Bigeard still believed that with the same number of troops that were available at Dien Bien Phu, but of first-class quality, the French could have survived the battle. "If you had given me 10,000 SS troopers," said Bigeard to this writer ten years after the battle, "we'd have held out." Mztourist (talk) 13:16, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Operations

I've continued my work on writing articles for the operations and battles of the conflict. Here's a quick update.

• Operation Camargue
• Operation Mouette
• Operation Brochet
• Operation Hirondelle
• Battle of Muong Khoua
• Operation Atlante
• Battle of Cao Bang
• Operation Adolphe
• Battle for Hanoi

There is a transplanted background section on the talk page of Camargue which may be useful when working on the background section of this article, feel free to use anything that is useful. SGGH ^ping! 14:07, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Operation D (aka Operation Condor these intelligence service guys are tricky). Cliché Online (talk) 22:07, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Only four redlinks left. SGGH ^ping! 13:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

SKZ

The article mentioned a Chinese artillery battalion sent to Vietnam which operated SKZ recoilless rifles. It also said China supported the Viet Minh with SKZs and ammo. This is highly improbable since SKZ was invented and produced by the Viet Minh themselves. In fact it was invented by Dr. Tran Dai Nghia, a Vietnamese scientist. The name of the weapon itself came from "Sung Khong Zat" which is the exact Vietnamese phrase for "recoilless rifle". I followed the citation mark and found another piece of crap: it says the information comes from "Chinese General Hoang Minh Thao and Colonel Hoang Minh Phuong quoted by Pierre Journoud". I laughed, because Hoang Minh Thao and Hoang Minh Phuong were both Viet Minh officers. Now if no one objects to this I will delete all references of China supporting SKZ to the Viet Minh.Hawkie (talk) 13:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

the chinese operated stalin organs (aka katyusha) at dien bien phu in the last days of the siege (may 1954), will you claim the viet minh invented the katyusha as well ? maybe the viet minh also have invented the hundreds soviet-built GAZ trucks which were used by them to bring the heavy artillery uphill? communist propaganda said they used bicycles, bicycles?! they were pretty heavy four-wheel motorized bicycles then. Cliché Online (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

false list about french union

i've corrected the infobox's false combatant list: INDEPENDENT cambodia and laos fight with france and state of vietnam against communists from 1953 to 1954, and state of vietnam (said independent associated state with the french union) is created in 1949. but cambodia and laos are not colonies, protectorates or else, they are independent countries since 1953. from 1953 its no more colonization war but cold war (hence us support and chinese). Cliché Online (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

secret us-french war (1954-1956)

the SDECE and CIA fought a secret war between the geneva cease fire in 1954 and the actual departure of the french expeditionary corps in 1956. GCMA commandos are involved as well as corsican mafia and opium. the saigon battle of 1955 is a result of this secret war. Cliché Online (talk) 22:11, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

GCMA did probably scrap it out in the jungle until they were slaughtered, following the departure of the French forces. In fact it is almost certain seeing as radio transmissions were picked up from them. However, as for CIA theories, you might want to find a source. SGGH ^ping! 13:51, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The British War

A little known historical fact regarding Vietnam is that there were actually THREE Vietnam Wars (excluding the sinoVietnamese War of 1979). The first was the British War which lasted from 1945-1946. This was followed by the French Indochina war (1945-1954 and ultimately the US Vietnam War. What is fascinating about the FIRST Vietnam War is that the Japanese troops fought alongside the British, and ultimately under British Command, against the fledging Communist guerilla movement headed up by Ho Chi Minh. In fact, in March 1945, the Japanese (who had coexisted with the Vichy French army in Vietnam throughout the course of WWII) eventually disarmed and interred the French and awaited the arrival of the British Army. After the Viet Minh were silenced, the Japanese soldiers were repatriated to Japan.

To save their own colonies of "English Indo-China" of Malays and Burma, the Brits helped the French de reconquer Indochina and the Dutch to recover the Dutch East Indies.

In fact the First Indochina started in 1945 in the South with the Leclerc detachment in the luggage (impedimenta) of geral Gracey Indian Division. In 1945-1949, the French fought in Indochina with the british military and diplomatic help. The military hardware came from Singapore http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/oliversarmychap5.htm

Takima (talk) 22:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Casualties and losses --

Under Casualties and losses, the article cites “French Union: 75,581 dead.” As I have written in my recent book, Crucible Vietnam: “During the more than seven years that the French had been fighting in Vietnam, French Union Forces (made up of Frenchmen, French Foreign Legionnaires, and French Colonial troops from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Senegal, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia) suffered more than 74,000 deaths, of which 20,685 were Frenchmen.” Source: A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, p. 16. [Footnoted source: Micheal Clodfelter, Vietnam in Military Statistics: A History of the Indochina Wars, 1772 – 1991. (Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company, 1995), p. 33.]. I have seen reputable sources citing figures of French Union Forces totaling between 74,000 and 76,000, so it appears there may be some dispute, however Micheal Clodfelter is the only source I have found who has cited the number of Frenchmen who died (20,685), which does not include Foreign Legion deaths. Consequently Frenchmen comprised more than 25% of total French Union Forces deaths. I feel the article would be more informative if Wikipedia, in citing French Union deaths, additionally note that this includes 20,685 Frenchmen, in order that readers will have a broader understanding of deaths incurred among French Union Forces. A. T. Lawrence72.197.84.216 (talk) 18:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

NPOV removed

I've removed the NPOV template, please use {{POV-statement}} for sentences, then detail issues here. This will help address them in a timely manner. - RoyBoy 01:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Confusion with numbers

In the information box, it seems that the number of casualties for both sides is greater than the number of combatants. How is this possible (with civilian deaths mentioned separately), or is this because the number of combatants given that of the number at some given time? Will someone please explain or correct this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whipster (talk • contribs) 00:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)