Talk:Flag of China

Why is this a dab page?

Is this ambiguous?

No, while there are two states that claim to represent China, only one is commonly referred to by the shorthand name "China"

If it were ambiguous, would there be a primary topic?

Yes, the PRC is referred to by "China" exclusively and overwhelmingly by reliable sources. "When there is a well-known primary topic for an ambiguous term, name or phrase, much more used than any other topic covered in Wikipedia to which the same word(s) may also refer, then that term or phrase should either be used for the title of the article on that topic or redirect to that article."

Can this issue be handled by dab hatnotes instead of a dedicated dab page?

Yes, the Flag of the People's Republic of China article already has a dab hatnote, which is the usual way of handling dab issues when there are only two topics. "If only a primary topic and one other topic require disambiguation, then disambiguation links are sufficient, and a disambiguation page is unnecessary."

SchmuckyTheCat (talk) 20:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a disambig page because that's what we do when things are ambiguous. Your opinion may be rational, your opinion may be well thought out, but it is just that-your opinion. 23 million inhabitants of the Republic of China (which has its own article here, under that name, what a surprise!) may have a different opinion. So in that sense it is not used exclusively. You've had your way in hundreds of articles, at this point do you really want to have a wheel war over a little disambig? Do something better with your time. We could call in the 3O boys, but wouldn't it be more grownup to call this one a wash and move on? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The 23 million inhabitants of the ROC never call their own country China. The state is simply not officially nor commonly called by that name, so if that's your only argument I see no reason to keep this article as a disambiguation page. Laurent (talk) 12:25, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

You will need a cite for your spurious claim. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 11:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

What spurious claim - that Taiwanese don't call their own country China or their own flag "flag of China"? I don't think that needs a source and it's beside the point anyway. The flag of the PRC is commonly called "flag of China" and that wouldn't be hard to source. Check UN documents, the CIA Factbook or the BBC. Now, if you want to add the flag of the ROC, the burden of evidence lies with you to demonstrate that it's also commonly called "flag of China". Laurent (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Disambig page?

This page has several purposes and is not just a pro or anti ROC page. There are flags of China before 1949. These are not flags of the PRC. These flags have a link on this page. There has to be a logical way to present it! Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The flag of Germany article shows the Nazi flag and other flags. Of course, the Nazi government is unrelated to the current government. So there is logic to have a Qing Dynasty flag in this article. A disambig page is another possibility. The touchy part is what to do after 1949? One possibility is a disambig page. To mix PRC and ROC flags after 1949 in the same article is liable to make some people angry. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

That's why we made this one a disambig. Please feel free to add other links to the disambig, and don't be discouraged by the user above. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:13, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the article you are looking for is List of Chinese flags, which is now in the hatnote of Flag of the People's Republic of China. Laurent (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion? I see there's a 3O open for this, though I'm not sure why, as it seems the issue has been resolved. For what it's worth, I agree with this page being a disambiguation article. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 17:42, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed?

I performed a cleanup of this page in compliance with WP:MOSDAB. There's a {{Citation needed}} tag that keeps being replaced.

WP:DAB: "Do not include references in disambiguation pages; disambiguation pages are not articles."

If an item's placement in this Dab page is deemed unnecessary or inappropriate, then it should be removed by talk page consensus. Since there are only two items in this list, I'm presuming that this is not the case, and that the addition of a {{Citation needed}} tag on one entry is by the POINTy insistence of a disgruntled editor.

This isn't the place for petty bickering. If it isn't removed shortly, I'll bring it up on WT:DAB. Nightw 06:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Correct; dab pages don't use citations. If one of the uses isn't ambiguous, with consensus this page should become a redirect to the only remaining target. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:12, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Flag of the People's Republic of China is clearly a primary usage from a global perspective. The CN tag stated that it is necessary to show that "Flag of China" as a meaning for the KMT flag in Taiwan is a non-fringe view. It has been KMT supporters who insist they be represented here, as a dab target. The way this should have been handled would have been a redirect to Flag of the People's Republic of China + a hatnote on both of the current dab targets. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I'm pretty sure the issue falls under WP:NC-TW, where two polities claim, officially, that their flag is the "flag of China". And they're each supported by a portion of the international community. Nightw 09:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, WP:NC-TW says nothing about the flag of China, and it seems that the users who insist in having a disambiguation page cannot find a single source where the flag of the ROC is referred to as a "flag of China". If there's no such source, we shouldn't claim that "the flag of China refers to the flag of the ROC". Laurent (talk) 10:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:NC-TW is about the use of the name "China", as in "flag of China". I'm fairly certain that this falls under those NCs, not to mention WP:NPOV. Nightw 15:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:NC-TW is in direct conflict with WP:NPOV because it conflates a fringe view to parity with actual usage in academic, diplomatic, journalistic, and mainstream usage. It has not been a useful guideline for several years. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I'm well aware of your discontention with the NCs. It doesn't change the fact that they're there out of consensus. If you want to see them changed, bring it up with the community there. Nightw 11:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Why? The community there is overwhelmed by KMT. The practice, on Wikipedia as a whole, is to ignore that guideline. Most editors don't even know it exists. Guidelines and policies describe practice, not prescription, and if a guideline is out of line with practice because it is dominated by a small fringe group it gets ignored. There is no relevant evidence that the view "China might mean RoC" is anything but an extreme minority view of Pan-blue politics on the island of Taiwan and various ex-pats. NPOV does not mean Equal validity to every POV. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Wikipedia isn't merely about current events. It isn't a newspaper or a magazine. There are articles about history. Before 1949 the flag of China is the flag of the Republic of China. 12:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.198.25.154 (talk)

Virtually every country on earth has had different flags at different times. The flag of France used to be the German flag during the war, and Poland had three flags for more than a hundred years, yet Flag of France and Flag of Poland are obviously not disambiguation pages. Moreover, there's already a List of Chinese flags which already includes all the historical flags so, if you really mean what you wrote, the flag of China article is essentially redundant. Laurent (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

(I did not remove this sockpuppet edit, I'm responding.)

The goal of a dab page is a navigational aid to quickly get users to the topic they want. In that role, historical uses take a backseat to a primary topic. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

The Republic of China is not yet history. It is a matter of neutral point of view not to say China in place of the People's Republic of China nor the Republic of China. 07:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It does not matter if they are not history. Referring to them as "China" is a fringe political view. The only determination that needs to be made is the primary topic for this article, and noone from a global general audience is seeking the RoC as a generic term for China. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

An alternative is to redirect to List of Chinese flags. Would that be an acceptable compromise? Nightw 15:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Do readers (who we write for) expect to be taken to a list of Chinese flags when they type this into the search box? No.

Do editors who are unaware of Chinese politics expect to wikilink Flag of China to a list? No.

Does any other country link to a list instead of the main article? No.

Such a compromise is for editors, but I do not see how it complies with users expectations, our policies, or a consistent experience across the project. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

It would comply with WP:NC-TW. I know you don't like them, but "ignore that guideline" isn't an option in my opinion. If you have an issue with a guideline, get it changed. It's not okay to ignore it in my books. Nightw 20:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Nothing about redirecting this to the PRC flag doesn't comply with that either. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)