Talk:Galli

Destruction of the temples of Cybele

All of her temples were destroyed, with orders that they should never be built upon (in contrast to the usual practice of converting non-Christian religious sites)

It would be nice to get a source for this. Theodosian decree or something? Bacchiad 01:07, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Etymology

There seems still to be no great agreement on the likely etymology of the word Galloi.

One suggestion that seems interesting would relate it to Sumeric gallu = "in a woman's voice", proposed by Hirschmann (2005) [1]. -- Jheald (talk) 11:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of the Cybele-related material on Wikipedia suggests that the name derives from the Galatians, which would fit very nicely indeed. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 00:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Masculine form is offensive

I'm not sure how to handle this. 72.83.167.138 (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand why the masculine form would be offensive in contemporary usage, but when you're talking about the ancient Galli, that's what they were called, and it's a masculine form; the feminine plural would be Gallae, the neuter would be Galla. Catullus's long Attis poem (I think that's number 63) deals with Attis's self-castration and shifting gender identities by alternating between forms that are grammatically feminine and masculine in regard to the ritual transformation. I'm not sure how clear the ancient sources are as a whole about the self-identification of the Galli in terms of gender; I'm not sure that we know whether they identified as men who deliberately removed themselves from the procreative cycle for spiritual reasons, or as self-made women, or as a gender category that we don't fully understand today because our theological knowledge is so limited. I'm only saying we should be careful not to impose our own gender concepts or issues. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I have always seen them referred to as Gallae, feminine. They lived as women, wearing women's clothes and taking female names. we should be careful not to impose our own gender concepts or issues. But that's what you're doing by using the masculine and referring to them as "priests", when they saw themselves as priestesses! XinaNicole (talk) 02:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any ancient texts written by either priests or priestesses of Cybele, so I don't know how you can assert that you know how they referred to themselves. An exception might be inscriptions; my recollection of this is vague, as it's been a few years since I've looked at the evidence, but I believe there are dedicatory inscriptions referring to priests of Cybele that may be assumed to reflect their self-perception. If these give a feminine form (but see below), it would be good to know before asserting a view. So far I've uncovered no inscriptions that use the feminine.

In the meantime, the Oxford Latin Dictionary gives several examples of Gallus in the sense of the Great Mother's priest, but only one instance in the feminine — and that is in Catullus's poem, as I mentioned above, where he shifts gender back and forth from masculine to feminine to mark Attis's liminal status in these terms. This is a self-consciously literary device in a sophisticated, even unique poem; as evidence for the cult of Cybele, it must be used with caution. For the entry on this priesthood in a standard (though dated) encyclopedia in the field of classical studies, please visit this site.

In the early 50s BC, the high priesthood of Cybele in Pessinus, the center of her worship, became embroiled in political controversy at Rome; you can find some information here. The Galatian kings seem to have reserved the high priesthood of this major religion (just as in Rome a politician might also hold a priesthood or high priesthood within a particular god's cultus); there is no evidence that the Galatian king was a eunuch, so this complicates our understanding of this religion. The article notes that the title changed from battakes to archigallus under Claudius; see also here.

The word eunuchus in Latin (and eunuchos in Greek) is a masculine word; adjectives and pronouns referring to a eunuch are in the masculine form. Both Latin and Greek have three genders; if they had wanted to make the noun feminine or even neuter, they could've. If I'm not mistaken, all the ancient written evidence for the Galli is preserved in Latin or Greek; I don't think that the Galatians left any inscriptions relevant to this religion in the form of Celtic they spoke. (Unfortunately Philip Freeman's book on the Galatian language offers no online preview.) The Galatians were sometimes referred to as "Gallogreeks" (Gallograeci); although Celtic in origin, and although St. Jerome says they still spoke a form of Celtic in his day, they had become bilingual while invading Asia Minor and Greece, and after settling in Anatolia are known to have used Greek regularly as well. Even in Gaul, the literate classes (i.e., the druids and those educated by them) sometimes used Greek letters for writing Gaulish before the Roman conquest. Therefore Greek forms can be taken as an accurate reflection of Galatian usage. The Galatians, however, took over administration of the cult of Cybele from the Phrygians, who also spoke an Indo-European language that is even less attested.

On the name of Cybele's priests, see Eugene N. Lane, "The Name of Cybele's Priests the 'Galloi'," in Cybele, Attis, and Related Cults: Essays in Memory of M.J. Vermaseren (Brill, 1996), pp. 117ff. online. Here one sees that in Greek also, the term is Γάλλος (Gallos, plural Galloi, the Greek masculine form equivalent to Latin Gallus). Some pages are missing in the Google preview, but all the Greek passages are translated, including one by the Emperor Julian, who attempted to restore the just-Christianized empire to the traditional religions and who wrote a treatise On the Mother of the Gods (that is, Cybele). Throughout the entire collection of essays to which I've linked, the feminine form Gallae is used only in connection with Catullus's poem. The book Mother of the gods: from Cybele to the Virgin Mary doesn't contain any reference to Gallae; the masculine is used throughout. So too Attis, between Myth and History: King, Priest, and God.

The things you've read may have been based on either wishful thinking or a misunderstanding of the uniqueness of Catullus as a source. For instance, I've found an interesting book called Transgender Warriors that asserts: "transexual women priestesses known as gallae were found in such large numbers … " etc. A Google Books search turns up several books pertaining to transgendered identity that use the term gallae. Certainly issues of gender identification in antiquity are of interest in the history of sexuality, and of course we find many aspects of sexuality in antiquity quite different from our own. But the simple fact is that Gallae is used only by Catullus to make a point, and was not the regular term for Cybele's priests. At least three volumes of Corpus cultus Cybelae Attidisque are online (Asia Minor; Egypt, Africa, and Western Europe; and Germany, Macedonia, Thrace etc.), and none turns up a reference to Gallae. Since this is a multi-volume collection of all known inscriptions pertaining to the religion of Cybele, it's hard to know where else to look for your Gallae. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Reworking

I have reworked the article. Much of the stuff in it looked bogus -- all of it was unreferenced, or not to a reliable source. I've looked up the section in Vermaseren and added what material I can. We need a wider range of sources, tho. I have tried to reference everything. Roger Pearse (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for these significant improvements. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, and I am glad to help. You reference some interesting sounding sources in your previous comment -- if I had access, I'd see what we could get from them. Do you have access to them at the moment?

In addition

In Bulgaria, there are many recorded legends of "Gallats". In them, it is said/sung that water from the wounded little Gallat is very dirty and poisonous. In some of the songs, it is said they went on battles. It is possible this to be linked with Janissaries. Nothing strange the Ottomans to have tolerated pagan cults too, to whom their military mainstay - the Janissaries, appertained. In Bulgaria, temples of Cybele/Artemis are found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enarei (talk • contribs) 15:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

This is interesting - thank you. But ... I'm not sure that it's the same subject, "gallat" and "galli". I don't think the cult of Cybele extended any further than the 5th century. The Ottomans don't arrive until the 15th century. Do we have a reliable source (WP:RS) that links gallat and galli?

I'd like to hear more about Bulgarian temples of Cybele, tho! Roger Pearse (talk) 17:40, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is a link about Cybele in Bulgaria(Balchik): http://visit.guide-bulgaria.com/NE/Dobrich/Balchik/Balchik/_id=272 The folk tale of the gallats has it widespread. At places, it is replaced with "Tartars", "soldiers" and others. The little Gallat, in some variants, is called King George. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enarei (talk • contribs) 18:47, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

This is really interesting and surprising. There's another report here. It seems to be Hellenistic, founded in the 3rd century BC, but in use up to the 4th century AD. Latin coins and inscriptions were found. Roger Pearse (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone know where the inscriptions can be viewed? They're in Latin? The earliness of a temple to Cybele in that area is indeed surprising, since Cybele didn't come to Rome until the very end of the 3rd century BC. Since Latin inscriptions would postdate that, I'm wondering how we know the temple as founded ca. 300 BC was for Cybele. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems Christianity really fought with perverted cults. Talking about the churches of Apostle Paul, not of the Coptic churches. Centuries on end, these cults were suppressed, but the Ottoman domination decided to take advantage and to weaken this suppression. In the beginning of the 19th century, the berries of frenzy started to become bitter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enarei (talk • contribs) 07:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Cynwolfe, I couldn't find much on this find. But remember that Cybele is an ancient cult in Asia Minor, well before it came to Rome. Balchik is near Varna, on the Black Sea, and not particularly far away. In the period immediately after Alexander there was a lot of activity in that region. I presume the early date must be from pottery, although nothing said so. The Latin coins must be from the imperial period. Interesting that they are Latin, rather than Greek! But the report was not scholarly, so it may all be some journalist's misunderstanding. I wonder if there is anything in JSTOR...

Nothing in JSTOR. Only discovered in 2008. Here's more. Inscription to the emperor Licinius (early 4th century). And more (best yet). But this says there are 27 inscriptions, the earliest from the 3rd century AD and the last from the early 4th century. Pottery suggests founded 280-260 BC, apparently. Temple destroyed by fire in 378 and not rebuilt.

Enarei (by the way, you can sign your notes by entering four tilde's at the end), the cult of Cybele continued to be a problem into the 5th century. They adapted their myth to compete, and even had invented scriptures of their own by the 5th century (record in Marinus, Life of Proclus). Roger Pearse (talk) 19:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Further to this, I find a page of coins from Balchik (ancient Dionysopolis) here: http://www.wildwinds.com/moushmov/dionysopolis.html. These include a coin of Cybele from the 3rd century BC. The town was a Greek colony on the Black Sea, it seems. Roger Pearse (talk) 20:21, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware of Cybele's history (well, glancingly) in Asia Minor, but the Latin inscriptions produced my question. Cybele's cult was at times complementary to Greek mystery religions, including the Dionysiac. Not sure I could clarify what I mean by that 'complementary' — the impression I get is of theological compatibility, with physical overlapping or sharing of cult space in a sanctuary. So her importation might be consonant with conjectures about Thracian mysteries. Still, even if the Latin inscriptions are definitive, I'm wondering why they think it was always a temple to Cybele; Hierapolis, for instance, is a good case of how deities elbowed each other around within a sacred precinct. So if all the Cybele evidence is Latin, it could be that Cybele seemed like an ecumenical bridge between the local mysteries and Imperially sanctioned cult. It's interesting, as you say. The coin doesn't seem like very strong evidence for assigning a temple, but then again, even zoomed I can't see it very well. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

In Bulgaria, there are many sanctuaries and monuments, dedicated to "Mother Goddess". Maybe the lack of concrete writing reports did not let the researchers connect them with Cybele and the Barbarian cults. The Old-Testament prophets bravely defeated Astaroth and Baal and we can freely put St. Peter and St. Paul next to them as followers of their deed. Enarei (talk) 18:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)