Talk:Geneva Conference (1954)

signing

Added the line that only France and the DRV signed the document. The online Encyclopedia Brit. states that the agreement was between .... But the Pentagon Papers, which includes the text of the Accords show only Brigadier-General DELTEII of France and TA-QUANG BUU Vice-Minister of National Defence of the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam signing the document.

LN Hello my name is emily jane malaulau

What the hell is this? Diem was not clamping down on "supporters of the Geneva agreement," he was clamping down on armed militants who wanted Vietnam reunited under the Hanoi regime at all costs. I'm sure they would've loved an election since Uncle Ho would've won, but that doesn't diminish the Viet Cong's dedication to "revolutionary violence." Ruy's revisionist babble was rightly changed, and hopefully will be so again. J. Parker Stone 11:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

So like Eisenhower, you admit that "I'm sure they [the opponents of Diem's government] would've loved an election since Uncle Ho would've won". So we support elections only when we're pretty sure "our" side will win? What kind of commitment to democracy is that? To justify cancelling the election mandated by the Geneva Accords because the likely victors were dedicated to "revolutionary violence" is akin to supporting the British at the Battles of Lexington and Concord because the Brits were just trying to disarm violent revolutionaries.

Of course, the analogy isn't perfect - unlike the Americans in Vietnam, the British had built up, subsidized and defended the American colonies for generations and thus had a legitimate stake in them; and popular support for independence from the British Empire was nowhere near as solid at the time as was popular support in Vietnam for Ho Chi Minh in 1954-56; I doubt Hancock, or Adams, or anyone else in the Continental Congress would have won a colonies-wide popular election on the platform of independence in 1775 (whether or not slaves, women and unpropertied men were enfranchised). --Davecampbell 18:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"So we support elections only when we're pretty sure "our" side will win? What kind of commitment to democracy is that?" YES!!!! What is so difficult about this policy, other than the temptation it offers to minds of a confused morality? By the time of the signing of the Geneva Convention it was quite obvious that Communist "independence" movements had an interest in elections only to the extent that they conferred a patina of (international) legitimacy on governments that intended to be - as they in fact became - totalitarian. If it is anti-democratic to deny elections on the grounds that to hold them would result in the end of democracy, it is also anti-democratic to allow elections that would surely result in the end of democracy. But in a world of actual alternatives, none of which are ideal, what do you do? If, under these circumstances, you do not support the Diem of actual history, then you are simply unfit to make these decisions. The refusal on the pro-Vietminh/anti-anti-Communist side to acknowledge the actual character of the regime and its conduct, preposterously asserting that they were mere classical liberal democratic movements of national independence, is at this point enough to absent them from the debate. We who have eyes and ears are no longer as ignorant as those in the 1960s, you fools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.252 (talk) 17:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

America not only failed to mandate elections by not signing the accords, and stopped them altogether by backing Diem, but in thus scorning the NLF, which was at that time a movement that held democratic ideals high, it left them access to only the Hanoi government, and both, only access to the CCCP, similar to the way that spurning Fidel Castro's diplomatic overtures led him to seek ties with the CCCP.

From "The United States in Vietnam - An Analysis in Depth of America's Involvement in Vietnam", by George McTurnin Kahin and John W. Lewis, Delta Books, 1967. Appendix 6-B, Page 390:
The first two of four sub-points of the Second of Ten Points of the "Ten-Point Program of the National Liberation Front", 1960:
"II. To Bring Into Being a Broad and Progressive Democracy
1. To abolish the current constitution of the Ngo Dinh Diem dictatorial administration-lackey of the U.S. To elect a new National Assembly through universal suffrage.
2. To promulgate all democratic freedoms: freedom of expression, of the press, of assembly, of association, of trade unions, of movement...To guarantee freedom of belief; no discrimination against any religion on the part of the State. To grant freedom of action to the patriotic political parties and mass organizations, regardless of political tendencies." Anarchangel (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Need for consistency -- At present the article states in the intro that the Accord was "not accepted by the delegates of either South Vietnam [an anachronism as the geographic division was created by the Accord] or the United States." The body states in the section The Geneva Accords that both "the State of Vietnam" (Diem's body) and "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam" (the Viet Minh body) signed, along with many others, excluding only the United States. The body then states in Post Declaration Events that "Diem refused to hold the national elections, noting that the State of Vietnam never signed the Geneva Accords." So which is it? Did the State of Vietnam sign or not? On a different matter, it is not quite clear if the Accords are the same as "the Geneva Agreements" mentioned in a section containing that name. Chris Lowe (talk) 02:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Migration

Saying that "some move[ing] north and some move[ing] south" is not showing the whole picture. Most migrants moved south to escape the repressive communist regime. DHN 17:56, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

If we want the whole picture, we should also take account that the Vietnamese Catholics who moved south were largely seen as collaborators with the French colonial occupation (analogous to "Tories" during the American Revolution, with the above caveats), and were mainly urban middle-class and therefore mobile; while the bulk of the Viet Minh's support were farmers whose entire livelihood was tied up in the bit of land they farmed, and urban workers and poor. --Davecampbell 18:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It is true that farmers would be disinclined to leave their crops, but Hanoi also issued statements urging southerners to remain in the south, so that they could vote in the anticipated elections. The numbers of Vietnamese moving north were mostly soldiers; the Geneva Convention mandated that they move north of the line. In retrospect, Diem's propaganda urging Catholics to move south should have been seen as an indication that he never intended to hold elections, or perhaps, was a poor strategist.Anarchangel (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Background

The article currently states:

This was significant because it was also the first time that a western nation was defeated by a South-Eastern Communist country.

First, North Vietnam was not a "Communist" country - or any other kind of country, for that matter - at the time of Dien Bien Phu. It didn't exist until after, and as a result of, the battle - as a temporary partition accepted by treaty, conditioned upon the holding of a reunifying election in 1956 (scuttled by the U.S. and the RVN).

The Dien Bien Phu page (as of this date) puts it more correctly, "

Dien Bien Phu was "the first time that a non-European colonial independence movement had evolved through all the stages from guerrilla bands to a conventionally organized and equipped army able to defeat a modern Western occupier in pitched battle."

Secondly, I think you mean "Southeast Asian" rather than "South-Eastern".

--Davecampbell 18:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

no this stuff has nothing to do. the idea before this line was with "it was the first time" was to point out that the algerian war started in 1954 because of the issue of the indochinese war. it was preceded by uprising in morocco as well. that was the idea (i think).

Second, there was no need for "holding of a reunifying election" since Vietnam was already unified per the State of Vietnam in 1954, it was because of ho chi minh that the country was divided once again, north COMMUNIST and south FREE (I guess). Paris By Night 01:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"A referendum on his leadership netted him 98% of the vote, with 133% in Saigon." Is this an error? No one can get more than 100% of a vote. angela26 06:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

No it's not an error. The referendum was rigged. See 1955 State of Vietnam referendum. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

(even though it was the French)

i removed that part. 207.29.128.130 19:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

what was that supposed to mean? :) Paris By Night 01:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

not neutral

such phrases like:

• "Communist and freedom fighter were synonymous in the minds of many Vietnamese" ever been in many vietnamese minds?

It was lazy of me not to give a citation previously, but no more lazy than the wording of your comment, which at face value seeks no more than to ridicule a supposed mindreading feat, when in fact, "synonymous in the minds of" is a quite common phrase meaning no such thing. You are free to raise objections about the wording, but it is a neutral appraisal with a basis in recorded fact. In the defense of Vietnam against not only the French, but Japan in WW2, and China following WW2, the Communist Party played a major and conspicuous role. In "The United States in Vietnam - An Analysis in Depth of America's Involvement in Vietnam", by George McTurnin Kahin and John W. Lewis, Delta Books, 1967, the authors repeatedly point to the links, both real and perceived, between Vietnamese nationalism and Communism, and between the defense of Vietnam against the invasions by Japan, China, and France, and the Communists who achieved that defense.
Chapter 1, page 16: "The Indochinese Communist Party became the focal point for nationalist resistance against the Japanese occupation"Anarchangel (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• "Diem continued to make poor decisions" ho, I guess only ho chi minh made GREAT decisions. that's why all political parties were forbidden in vietnam.

Paris By Night 01:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Not all. Personally I would prefer a State Party that is at least honest about allowing only certain candidates to run for office, rather than an Electoral College with ties to non- and supra-governmental groups that can steal both candidacy and office away from the Popular Vote whenever it chooses.Anarchangel (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

• 1) yes, at that time, majority of Vietnamese think so, at least it is what my grandma told me (born 1930 so she waas 15 in 1945, old enough I guess)

2)Would you be happy with "Diem continued to make poorer decisions than Mr Ho"? Mgz 09:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That is what your grandma told you!? This is a reasonable standard, you think? You have just disqualified your own opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.197.252 (talk) 17:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Shame on you, Ngz, for not knowing that the standard for Wiki is that verification > veracity, and eyewitness testimony is worth less than speculation in this week's Blog.Anarchangel (talk) 13:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Not the first time

I think you can argue that Haiti, Ethiopia, and the United States were earlier examples of a local force defeating a colonial power.

Roadrunner 16:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Referendum

The Conference Final Declaration provides for "General elections to be held in July 1956, under supervision of an international commission composed of representatives of the Member States of the International Supervisory Commission."[1] There is nothing in the accords about a referendum. The 1955 referendum allowed Diem to oust Bao Dai and proclaim a republic, i.e. it was about a set of issues not related to this article. To state that the cancelled election led to the Vietcong and thus to the Vietnam war is hardly NPOV. The Vietcong was an instrument of the Cold War, directed by Hanoi and Moscow. If you were a Vietnamese frustrated by South Vietnam's imperfect elections, what would be the logic in joining a movement that does not believe in competitive elections of any kind? Kauffner (talk) 16:03, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Dates

I'm a bit confused, on the page for April 26th http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_26 It cites that day as the beginning of the conference. MBVECO (talk) 23:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)MBVECO

MBVECO, the article start date has now been fixed to reflect the proper start of the conference. Before the article didn't address the part of the conference that dealt with the Korean question. That was the cause for the gap in start-dates. 211.228.53.158 (talk) 12:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The Korean Question

The article didn't talk about the first half of the conference, which addressed the Korean question. I've tried correct the omission, but more work may have to be done on it. 211.228.53.158 (talk) 12:04, 29 April 2010 (UTC)