Talk:Geordie

Newcastle is not Geordie

Newcastle is not Geordie The accent isn't even similar. Go to shields and find out for yourself.

I was born in North Shields and was always told that the (genuine) Geordie accent extended from the north shore of the River Tyne (the Fish Quay and docks)to one mile inland, but I will accept that it may spread rather further than that to the North and West, to include Newcastle....but North Shields is the true Geordie accent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crusader963 (talk • contribs) 19:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The Newcastle accent is Geordie. Everyone uses the usage of Newcastle being Geordie. Shields accent is similar, but certainly different. Newcastle = Geordie, (South) Shields = Sand dancers. Grinner 09:18, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

The accent comes from the dockyard workers. These are in shields. Particularly given that this is a cheaper area, i.e. somewhere where dockyard workers can afford to live, unlike newcastle.

Note how strong the accent is in shields, particularly towards the north east of the town, an area where it in parts becomes indecipherable. If the accent was from newcastle, then simple liguistic rules imply that the strongest accents should be found there, which is not the case at all, indeed the newcastle accent is significantly refined, and the use of dialectual words is rare, indicating that it is not the seat of the said dialect.

Shields has a disctinctive accent, I agree. But the fact is that Geordie is used primarily to refer to a person from Newcastle specifically, and Tyneside more generally. You can't escape that fact. If anything I would tend to regard Shields as being "borderland" between Geordie and Mackem - it certainly isn't the heartland of Geordieland.

Anyway, the west end of Newcastle has plenty of people who use a very broad accent, don't judge the Toon by Jesmond.Grinner 14:26, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I removed this, as was unclear what the author means: '... both due to their wanting to seem unique and the fact that many of them are supporters of the rival football club Sunderland'

People who fulfil the criteria for being a true Geordie, but support Sunderland FC must be a very small minority, right? AndrewMcQ 21:01, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I'm Tyneside born and bred but have always followed Sunderland as have my whole family for generations. The Geordie = can only be a NUFC fan claim is very recent and provably false.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The correct definition of geordie historically is not someone from Newcastle but someone from the coal mining areas around the city with Geordie being derived from the George Stevenson lamp. True in modern times geordie has took on a new meaning of centering in Newcastle but this is not the correct definition. On SAFC- Most Sunderland fans are geordies. Sunderland is traditionally part of Co.Durham (where the geordies come from) and so more geordie then Newcastle even. 'Mackem' is just a subset of geordie. Football confuses all of these definitions of course with geordie taking on this meaning of being a Newcastle supporter however this is deeply unfair. --Josquius 18:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I added South Shields to this becasue I have have found, as a native of that lovely towm, that I have often been accuses of sounding 'more Geordie than the Geordies'! I fully acept the comments about those from the North-East of the town though. my grans refers to themn as 'SkYet Enders', can anyone elaborate? I believe this come from the Tyne Pilotage situated at the Habroub Lights, where the hereditary pilots famously could not navigate on dyr land beyond the GPO!

Every one of the descriptions under Vocabulary applies to the accent I grew up speaking, but I grew up in south west Durham while my parents (who undoubtedly influenced my accent) are from Blyth, neither of which are remotely Tyneside, or north Durham pit villages, though both are old mining areas. You could make the argument the accent in both is Pitmatic, but it's not a label I grew up hearing. The Geordie article needs to serve as both a description of Geordie as specifically meant by people in the North East and as the core article about North Eastern accents in general, because that's the name people from outside the area will search for. The discussion under Geographical coverage should really be expanded to link to the Pitmatic and Northumbrian entries so that all of the named North Eastern accents are referenced.

This is complete shit, geordie is most strong in the BIKER area of newcastle people in shields havnt even got half an accent, my girlfriend is from there and all her friends :| they dont come close to geordie.

You mean "Byker"? Mikesc86 01:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The Torm Geordie Applies Te Anyone Who Wants Te Belong Te The Geordie Community ... Whether it's cos they once lived in an area weor they were proud te be caal'd Geordies ... or whether they want te belong te that community ... It is not aboot whether yee are a posh Geordie Frem "Biker" or a Docker in Sooth Shields " It's aboot Community Man" adopted Geordies who divent have the accent are still welcum te be caal'd Geordies "Haway the lads"

There isn't an actual border marking the North East: "For many Northerners, Doncaster on the old A1 in South Yorkshire is the southern limit of the North; but for ‘Geordies’ the southern limit is Darlington on the Durham-Yorkshire border near the river Tees, if not actually Durham on the river Wear. For the Scots, however, the South begins at Newcastle on the river Tyne, if not actually at Berwick on the river Tweed" (Katie Wales, 2002: 51). and there is no actual border that decides who is "Geordie" and who is not. The general consensus among dialectologists is that "Geordie" is the regional dialect of the area around the River Tyne, from Newcastle, through Gateshead and Jarrow, to North and South Shields.

You may like to read this article: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-169869519.html

Dr. Michael Pearce's research has revealed South Shields to be a bit of a grey area between the Geordie and Mackem accents, but the people of South Shields, in general, speak Geordie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.66.70 (talk) 00:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I grew up in Northumberland (not a Geordie then), but I always thought one definition (not the only one I'm sure) of a Geordie was someone born within the sound of the hooter of the Vickers works at Scotswood. Anybody confirm or deny that? 95.147.84.156 (talk) 20:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

County Durham

I was born and raised in County Durham. I do not speak 'Geordie'. The people of County Durham and Darlington speak in a sufficiently different manner that they be excluded from the generalisation, "Geordie refers to a person originating from Tyneside and the former coal mining areas of northern County Durham". 80.229.14.246 12:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How would you describe your accent? Or the accent generally used in your area? Is there a common term, or would you just say County Durham accent? Pitmatic? Let us know, it might help us to get the definition right... AndrewMcQ 18:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the definition here has been made difficult by the creation of Tyne & Wear County, because (obviously) the south side of the Tyne was County Durham prior to 1974, and the redistricting then did not create a new accent border, so bits of Durham outside Tyne and Wear are still culturally Geordie areas. However, we might want to say "adjacent/reighbouring/nearby former coalmining areas" to make it clearer that proximity to the Tyne is what counts. ProhibitOnions 10:47, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

But if you want to divide accents based on perceptible differences then where do you stop? There's a recognisable difference in accent between someone from (for example) Bishop Auckland and someone from West Auckland, but one runs into the other. Yes, there is a perceptible difference between Geordie as spoken by someone from Newcastle and someone from County Durham, but to anyone born outside of Durham and Northumberland both accents are 'Geordie' because they can't tell the difference. The article needs to cater for both sets of readers. You can call Newcastle Geordie the core of the accent, but most of the rest of Durham and Northumberland speaks a recognisable variation.

No, the County Durham accent is very different. I moved to the south of the country and nobody has confused my South West Durham accent with that of a Geordie. Also, please sign your talk contributions. Mikesc86 19:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Derwentside and people always confuse my accent with geordie. There are a few weird islands in County Durham where people speak 'posh' and in the south of the county its more akin to yorkshire but these days most of it is one. Sure Durham is technically called Pitmatic but hardly anyone has heard of that word, its all said to be geordie. The issue is confused due to football however- Newcastle fans exagerate being geordie whilst Sunderland fans will tend to make up reasons why Durham isn't geordie. I am a sunderland fan but...In the grand scheme yes Durham is another kind of geordie--Josquius 20:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Jarrow (well it was in Co Durham when I was born!) and can tell some subtle differences between the local accent and those from Newcastle and South Shields. I'd be hard pressed to list them, though, and I wouldn't say they were anywhere near enough to differentiate it as a distinct accent in its own right. Anyway, if the accent (or people) from Jarrow aren't Geordie, I'd be curious to know what they are described as (well, in terms suitable for polite company, at least!)

-- Chris (blather • contribs) 21:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• My mam and her siblings were all Co. Durham raised. They always talked about themselves as speaking Geordie. I never once heard them talk about speaking 'Pitmatic', although my mam did tell me that that was their local dialect. My granddad scalded me for my Kiwi accent once in visiting and told me to 'speak Geordie' so that he could understand me. A Geordie might be from the Shields or Newcastle or wherever, but c'mon, the north east speaks Geordie, the language, albeit with regional variants. Enzedbrit 23:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Towns in the North of Couty Durham such as Chester-le-Street have a very similar dialect to Newcastle, and share many dialect words that are rarely used in Northumberland (fog=first for example). But drop a few miles South to Durham City and you'll hearing people talking about "raydin' bowks" (reading books) with the transition to a more Yorkshire accent becoming apparent. If I had to draw a border around Geordieland it would probably start at Chester-le Street in the South, extend North to Longbenton and encompass the towns along the Tyne to the coast. Even within this though you've got pockets of very strong dialect (Birtley, Byker, North Shields) so I'm sure others will disagree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skipsey (talk • contribs) 16:33, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Yackerty yack

I have never heard the expression "farm yacker" before but "pit yacker" is a very common term for the inhabitants of South-East Northumberland especially the former mining communities around Ashington. More recently I've heard the term used (once) to describe someone from the Durham mining communities. Now I've never heard that before and have no back-up on how common that is however there was a large migration from Durham pits to Northumberland pits not long back and you can see this in the similarities in accent (e.g. wesh me clays for wash my clothes) and the number of Sunderland supporters from that area so its possible the name travelled and is equally applicable

As for "farm yacker" even though I haven't heard the impression the two terms give of farms and pits and nothing else has the ring of truth about it.

Feel free to slap me down.

To the best of my knowledge 'farm yakker' i.e. farm worker refers to people from the North Riding of Yorkshire which is not part of the North East but does border it.GordyB 13:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Uniqueness

I noticed a contradiction in the article. For example "The accent and pronunciation, like in Lowland Scots, reflect old Anglo-Saxon pronunciations, accents and usages." which is correct but then "Geordie also has a large amount of vocabulary not seen in other English dialects. Words still in common use today include "canny" for "pleasant", "gadgie" for "man", "hyem" for "home", "divn't" for "don't", "bairn" and "grandbairn" for "child" and "grandchild", "tab" for "cigarette" (c.f. tobacco), "hacky" for "dirty", and "gannin" for "going". " The second quoted section is incorrect about these words not being found elsewhere (reason being the first quoted section :) ) so for example Scottish English and Scots, which like Northern English also developed from the Northumbrian variety of Anglo Saxon, have "canny", "hame (for hyem)" "bairn" and "gang (for gannin)". --Nantonos 19:55, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps this could changed to something along the lines of 'not heard elsewhere in England', rather than 'in other English dialects', which can also refer to Scots dialects? AndrewMcQ 12:08, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I have attempted to separate some of the words which are not derived from Old English: gadgie is Roma, hyem is from Old Norse (compare modern Swedish hjem) and "tab" is derived from Ogden's Tabs, a long disappeared brand of cigarettes. Rugxulo 22:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Could we have some way to indicate which words are exclusively Geordie (or are there none?) 78.32.74.38 (talk) 12:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

List of "Geordies"

What about Jonny Kennedy, the fellow who had dystrophic epidermolysis bullosa? A review I read of "The Boy Whose Skin Fell Off," a documentary shown on Channel 4 in England and the TLC cable network in the USA, says he's a Geordie, which probably explains why he sounded like a Scot to my (untrained) ear. --MitchS 23:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Sting is from County Durham. Ridley Scott is from South Shields. Catherine Cookson is from South Tyneside (now known to the local tourist board as "Catherine Cookson Country"). Therefore, none are Geordies under the criteria applied in the article. I have not removed the names pending discussion. If the list is to include those commonly described as Geordies but not actually from Newcastle upon Tyne/North Tyneside, then many other names could be added including Paul Gascoigne (Gateshead), Ross Noble (Cramlington), and Rowan Atkinson (Northumberland). Maybe this would be for the best as it is a bit feeble looking at the moment. Terwilliger 22:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Sting is from Wallsend, well known fact. He used to live in Station Road, Wallsend near to where the metro station is now in place.--Geordiejon 11:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article defines the term as "Geordie refers to a person originating from Tyneside and the former coal mining areas of northern County Durham or the dialect spoken by such people." This embraces all the people on the list so far. Note: Tyneside and Durham, not just Newcastle.

Sting is from Wallsend; read his autobiography, he is very much a Geordie. Catherine Cookson was a Geordie as well, as she was from South Shields, which is Geordie territory even if they usually pronounce their O's differently; likewise the Scotts.

I started the list with the hope that others would add to it, and began only with people who I could recall speaking in a Geordie accent (Brian Johnson, Sting in Stormy Moday), though obviously we could make a set of criteria for inclusion if we wanted to.

Part of the problem, as you mention is the definition of Geordie, which has been made slightly more difficult in recent years by the coining of the term Mackem, for which no documented use exists before 1991, and the increasing use (or coining or reintroduction; no one seems to be clear about this) of the term Sanddancer. While Mackems generally consider themselves separate from Geordies (though some parts, notably Washington, are a bit divided), Sanddancers are Geordies. Note, for example, the recent BT ads about how many "Geordie households have returned to BT"; these can be seen throughought North and South Tyneside. (Full disclosure: I'm half-Washington, half-South Shields, and grew up in Newcastle.) ProhibitOnions 10:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

It is surprising that there is no documented use of the word Mackem before 1991. I remember a friend of mine from Wearside using it quite a lot in 1989, and it was definitely a widely used term then. Does anyone from that area remember using the word before 1991? (Gp100mk 13:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC))

Look at the article Mackem, the OED has recently come across an earlier example, from 1988, although in a context that suggests the term was, indeed, relatively new. ProhibitOnions 15:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Sunderland fans at the old Fulwell End used to chant Mackems/Geordies depending on which area of the N-E you came from from at least the early 1980's.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Have to say this is a tricky one, which is why I've stuck to just overseeing the similar list of "people from Newcastle Upon Tyne". At least that's geographically defined! As an example, Steve Cram is a Gateshead lad, so therefore a Geordie... only he supports the mackems, so he's renounced his Geordiehood in my book. If you asked him yourself, I don't think he'd class himself as a Geordie due to the aforementioned Geordie/mackem divide. (FYI - mother Scots, dad Welsh (but brought up in Glasgow), me born in Gateshead and now resident in Bradford!) IainP (talk) 12:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Why would supporting Sunderland mean you are no longer a Geordie? TI'm a Tyneside lad, but have always supported SAFC. I am not a Mackem, thats a Wearsider. What about NUFC fans who are from Sunderland (they do exist) are they Geordies or Mackems? Personally, football has nothing to do with it for me.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 06:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at, say, Boston accent, where there's a section called "Well Known Speakers of Boston Accent" — perhaps this would be a better idea, focusing on those with obvious Geordie accents (and possibly pointing out some of the subvariants). The intro to the article should be rewritten to emphasize that Geordie is an accent, not just a kind of person; not all Geordies speak in Geordie, or at least not all the time. That would help users who are trying to identify Geordie speech, while your list of famous Novocastrians would focus on regional origin. (You might want to make lists of other parts of Tyneside as well, or add them to the Newcastle list under a subheading.) ProhibitOnions 13:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I think this idea suggested by Onions is better than what is currently there. On the one hand the article admits that the term "geordie" is not well defined, yet on the other we then produce a list that has clear definitions premised upon it. "Well know speakers" will allow for obvious examples to be flagged, but prevent a backdoor definition that would otherwise occur if disputable "geordies" arise. Logoistic 19:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts right...

At the end of the article there is a line mentioning the fair that takes place on the town moor in Newcastle, for a start its name is the 'hoppings' not 'hoppin's' also, and more importantly, this fair, and all other fairs around the country have nothing to do what so ever with gypsies, the term you are looking for is showmen or show people, refering to them as gypsies in their presence will land you in bother, although some show families are of Romany descent, they are most certainly not classed as gypsies and these people tend to get very annoyed (and rightly so) when they are refered to as gypsies. This is all down to the public's perception of people owning a caravan they are automatically gypsies and seen more or less as scum for want of a better word. I suggest this article is altered, maybe the author could do some research into the subject of the English fairground before going ahead and assuming things, this way he/she wont be having bother from people like the showmens guild of Great Britain and the the fairground society of Great Britain etc.

By all means if you find the wording inappropriate or offensive - change it! The joy of Wiki. I would tend to agree with your points above, though you've picked the correct path by using discussion first. I also think the "Hoppins" name doesn't quite sound right. I'm assuming the original author either mis-typed it, or is trying to emphasise the pronunciation, in which case there should be an apostrophe. Anyway, I'll go ahead and alter it as you've mentioned. IainP (talk) 12:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation

As someone has just added to the page, Geordie is also a 70's rock band for which a (stub) article exists. Is a disambiguation page called for? IainP (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Geordie in the media

I've got some mp3s I "aquired" via the BBC Listen Again facility a couple of months ago. They're of a 2-part look at Geordie comedy and comedians (the name of the program escapes me right now). I'll have a re-listen when I get the time and see if there's anything else from there that can be put in the article. IainP (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear

Thought I'd mention this - there's a category, Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear, and so far I'm the only one in it. This can't be right (I live in Berlin as it is), so Geordies and Mackems, please add yourself to it. ProhibitOnions 23:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Also look at Category:Geordie Wikipedians too.--Williamsayers79 11:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Just so you know there is now a disambiguation page, although its pretty basic. Jive Monk 09:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

American Accent ??

Here is the magic question. What British accent most resembles General American accent? By General American accent it is meant the kind used by most newscasters in America. It is sometimes called "accentless" or "midwestern" because it is neither southern or extreme northern. I could not find the answer to this question. Someone told me that Geordie is the closest accent to general American...but I have my doubts. Any ideas? Thanks.

No British accent very closely resembles an American one, they are almsot entirely different. If pushed I'd say that people from Northern Ireland are the closest and people from the East of England have some similarities e.g. my mother pronounces 'garage' the same way as Americans do. A lot of the earlier settlers of America were from Essex and East Anglia or from Ireland (particularly Ulster). Geordie does not remotely sound like American, an American would have no chance whatsoever of understanding a broad Geordie accent.GordyB 13:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

True enough; I'd say that a fair number of Brits would also have trouble with a broad Geordie accent. But if the main difference between standard AmE and standard BE is that the former is a rhotic accent (ie, the letter R is pronounced at the end of words and elsewhere) and the latter is not, it should be pointed out that there are plenty of rhotic accents in Britain, particularly from southwestern England (listen to someone from Bristol speak) while there are also non-rhotic ones in North America (parts of Massachussetts and New England; eastern Canada, bits of the South). Geordie is pretty much non-rhotic (i.e., more "British"-sounding) although its pronunciation is obviously quite different, and its terminal vowels ("fatha") involve more than just dropping the r.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 09:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Canny

I've reverted an edit which (amongst other things) suggested that canny was also used in the "sly" or "knowing" sense. I thought I'd better check here since I haven't lived in the area for a while, but I don't recall ever hearing it used in that context; though I do recall some people being unhappy that its appearance in TV programmes etc invariably followed the Scottish meaning rather than the local one. Additionally, I don't think canny (cannae?) as "cannot" is used frequently enough in the region to get a mention, but someone more adept at dialects may wish to have the final say here.
-- Chris (blather • contribs) 07:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are completely right. Anjouli 08:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but you're wrong. A couple of points: a) "canny" is used all the time in the region b) It has several meanings/uses. I was born and bred in sunderland and I can tell you that, at least in Sunderland,canny was and is a wonderful word with several meanings. It can mean "nice;good;pretty" as in ' the baby's dead canny'and "it was a canny good film": it can mean 'a long way' as in "it's canny far". and it can mean 'sly or clever' as in " watch him, he's a bit canny". Khasab (talk) 23:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right that "canny" for "cannot" is not a feature of Geordie, far more Scots. As for the sly sense I've certainly heard it used in this way, imagine someone having a complex plan explained to them, and as they understand it they nod their head and say "Riiiight". Imagine a drawn out 'canny' in its place and I think you have what you were referring to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skipsey (talk • contribs) 16:49, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Howay!

How is howay pronounced? Hoe-way? Haw-way? Does it rhyme with today or with high? JIP | Talk 18:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It kind of rhymes with today--Williamsayers79 11:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's Ha (as in "had") Way (as in "way"). It doesn't rhyme with 'today'. Anjouli 08:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It does rhyme with today! and its only Ha (as in "had") Way (as in "way") if its spelt haway which is more like a Makem accent! --Williamsayers79 21:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

As a geordie I usually pronounce it how way but blended in. The W is to pronounced for it to rhyme with today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.152.36 (talk) 10:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Smoggy?

I thought "smoggy", as in "smog monster", was considered an insult. Have people from Teesside "reclaimed" this term and started using it with pride? 217.34.39.123 10:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Definition of "Geordie"

I always thought "Geordie" referred to anyone born in Newcastle, i.e. NORTH of the Tyne. I didn't think it applied to Gateshead. Surely this followed the County Durham/Northumberland distinction that has historically existed, but been blurred by confusion following the 1974 Local Government changes. Hence why a large number of people in my grandad's generation who lived in Gateshead followed Sunderland rather than Newcastle at football - because it was County Durham. Whatever, this article really needs some references, or at least needs to admit that definition of the term varies. Logoistic 19:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to come up with anything but ar arbitrary definition of a dialect term that varies so considerably in usage! It has been said that a Geordie is anyone born within the smell of the Tyne, but I guess that depends on the wind-direction and the Tyne has not smelled for years. I would say a Geordie is anyone who speaks with a Geordie accent (honorary Geordies excepted).Anjouli 08:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"I would say a Geordie is anyone who speaks with a Geordie accent": hmmmm, but again, one person's Geordie-speak is not another persons. Yet at the same time, we all accept it centres around Newcastle. Logoistic 00:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Considering one of the most popular origins for the term is with the miners it would be a bit daft to have Geordie just be spoken in Newcastle- no mines in the city, they were all in the areas around it mainly Co.Durham.--Josquius 11:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC) Duh, apart from the mines in Wallsend (Rising Sun) North Shields. Newburn,Seaton Deleval etc etc, the previous writers error might be because the mines around newcastle were generally older, and worked out earlier than some of those South of the Tyne but saying all minrs were based in co Durham is plain wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.14.179 (talk) 14:28, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Geordie in the Media

It seems strange that there has been no mention or either Purely Belter of Billy Elliot, both films that show Geordies.

For Billy Elliot: since when was County Durham Geordie??? I have no qualms with Purely Belter though, as its about Geordies, even if the actors are not. Logoistic 00:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Cannae

Of course geordies say cannae. Just imagine a bit of typical speach- "I can't do that". If cannae is not said by geordies this would be: "Ah can't dee that man" which...just doesn't sound right. There's no flow. "Ah cannae dee that man" however sounds much more natural and far more geordie. It sounds nothing like 'canny' also.--Josquius 12:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, to be honest, I've never heard "cannae" used like that, but then I'm not a Geordie, and am mostly used to County Durham speak (having lived there all my life...). Somebody else also suggested that "cannae" isn't used for "cannot" either. ""Ah can't dee that man" sounds ok to me. Even if the "can't" isn't pronounced then it might be: "Ah cannet dee that man" sounds better. Whatever, I think we should get more opinions on this. Certainly "cannae" is definantly not used where I'm from... Logoistic 23:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It's said by geordies, pronounced without the 'T' Michaeltyne 18:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thats just can...If we said that then people wouldn't be able to tell if we could or couldn't do something. Its cannae thats said. Or occasionally cannit (though thats more of a Durham thing).--Josquius 21:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

We actually use 'Cannet' in Wearside, fairly sure it's the same up your bit anarl. "Eee man ya cannet dee that". Gazh 09:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I find "cannit" is used when the word is emphasised. "Ya cannae dee that man." vs. "Ya cannit!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.107.53.36 (talk) 10:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Article Intro, Geordie offensive to some Wearsiders

Anonymous IP 82.39.195.204 who keeps reverting my edit, would you like to discuss why you are reverting what i write? Gazh 07:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Gazh, the origin of where Geordie comes from is not known

26th July 2007

Hello Gazh, Gazh, you said “Outside this region, the term Geordie is the popular choice in referring to anyone from the North East, although this may be offensive to some people from Sunderland and some County Durham regions as the origin of the term 'Geordie' is said to derive from Newcastle's support of George II during the Jacobite rebellion, which neighbouring areas opposed, this would prove that indeed the people of Sunderland and County Durham are not Geordies.”

Gazh, The origin of the term Geordie is not proven, we can claim it comes from an old north eastern prouncement of the name George, we can claim it comes from villages in County Durham and it spread to the Tweed, Tyne, Wear and Tees, we can claim it comes from the south side of the Tyne and spread again. But these are just claims.

The one thing we can say is that Geordie has been used to describe the north east of England for about 180years, by using documents, where people from north and south of the region have been called Geordies and call themselves Geordies. And there are many various sources of documents from TV footage, to newspapers, to books.

Gazh, you are also using this one event coming from the Jacobite rebellion. I think you should be more real, and understand how the people would have lived and been like sociologically.

The people who fought in this rebellion, would have been bribed with food and water and the chance to feed their family, over certain death, and if they could have escaped and went to the other side they would have fought for the other side by being bribed with water, food and the chance to feed their family over death. Their bias was to their clan, their bias was towards survival.

The breadline people who fought in this rebellion had no time or thought to loyalty to any nationality, they had no time or thought to loyalty to Newcastle or Sunderland. And lets say if the people of Sunderland in a collective perceived Newcastle, Durham, Berwick, Middlesbrough had the wealth -which is very doubtful there was a collective like that at this time in the north east of England- then if they did so they would have just moved from their basic dwellings to perceived better basic dwellings and migrated instead of fighting them.

Simply their loyalty was to their immediate clan they happened to belong to at that moment in time and those clans their clans connected with in a radius of no more than a couple of miles, and that is the only thing that makes sociological sense.

These people were illiterate for gods sake. These people had no media to give them symbols of who is bad, so they took in hearsay from neighbors to neighbors. These people would have behaved similarly to tribes in Africa that are illiterate and don’t have media programming their brains. And when the battle was over they would have been relieved that they could live in peace and be free to move.

Also when this rebellion was over, the rebellion was forgotten by humans over generations, who were getting on by trading and socialising and not being influenced to take sides by forces from the north and south of the region. It is only when it was read about 400year later in 2007 by literate drama students, that some keyboard warrior has made a drama out of it.

Cheers,

All the best.

List of famous geordies

For god sake South shields, Northumbria and county Durham are not geordie places! So I removed anyone from these places from the list, make exceptions for people from Newcastle upon Tyne, Gateshead, North shields, and Wallsend nowhere else though. Because adding non-geordies onto that damn list is very disrespectful. The sunder king 14:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed the list of famous geordies until it can be verifyed. The sunder king 14:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you will find that there are many documents over many, many years that state that you are a geordie if you come from anywhere in the north east.

Please stop your vandalism.

--77.97.69.42 18:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, geordie is a term refering to of newcastle. Mackem is sunderland, pitmatic is durham, smoggie is teeside. The sunder king 10:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There is document after document from old TV footage, to newspapers to books, saying you are a geordie if you come from the north east. Please stop your vandalism.

Thank you.

--77.97.69.42 22:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi I have removed the section which has found its way back into the article, simply because people who aren't geordies are keep being placed in as "geordies" such as Steve Cram and Eric Idle who are big supporters of sunderland. Blueanode (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This list wasn't like any other list gone before, those lists didn't have citations and that was the reason it was took down.

On this new list I think there were over 70 notable Geordies and everyone had was cited which is fair game, which is what wiki asks. By the way 'Eric Idle' wasn't on the list. But I'll research him.

I can understand you taking people in the list down if there was no citations. But what was up was adding to the article.--Gregs the baker (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well that is wrong, see Mackem, it is not by any way vandalism. The sunder king 11:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sunder King here. The article clearly states that the geogreaphical area that "Geordies" come from is ambiguous, and can mean all sorts to different people. We can't therefore have this extensive list because to have such a list is making such a geographical definition. Clearly in some cases nobody has a problem - namely those born and raised in Newcastle itself. However, any further afield and then the list starts to make definitions about geographical area, contradicting what is written above it about the ambiguity of it. I think they should only be added if there are strong sources that show that a person is considered a geordie. Logoistic 21:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

As a Geordie myself, I have to back Sunder King. Please stop accusing him of vandalism.

Thank you.

Procrustean (talk) 02:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

6th October 2007, Reference Point For Those Concerned With Geordie Dialect and Vocabulary : Look at 'Dorfy’ articles

‘Dorfy’ articles, South Shields Gazette.

--Kirkpatrick9 18:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed section about Sunderland

The part was riddled with 'Citation Needed' tags, and Sunderland is quite irrelevant to 'Geordie'. Gazh 19:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

New List Of Notable Geordies, Accidently Taken Down When The Page Was Frozen

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&oldid=184287131

Blueanode,

1. This list wasn't like any other list gone before, those lists didn't have citations and that was the reason they were took down.

2. Citations, on this new list I think there were over 70 notable Geordies and everyone had was cited which is fair game, which is what wiki asks.

3. I can understand people removing people in the list, if there is no citations to back up a claim.

4. What was up was adding to the article. There was 132 citations

Lets keep the list referenced as a rule, like everyone on wiki wants.

--Gregs the baker (talk) 19:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Blueanode, on the list there is only two Sunderland fans I can see. Your statement on the history page on the 20:17, 14 January 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Geordie&action=history has no factual consistency. Also does two people mean removing a list of 70 people?--Gregs the baker (talk) 20:12, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope, because many of those people aren't even from newcastle, the list is annoying and WP:POV pushing, because it appears to be built around the term everyone from the northeast is a geordie, and it doesn't work. Gateshead, North Tyneside, and Newcastle are the only acceptable geordie places, DURHAM, is pitmatic, and northumbria has its own dialect too. Blueanode (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It has 132 citations, which is all you can ask.--Gregs the baker (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

those citations are usless and can't help, if you aren't from newcastle you aren't a geordie. Blueanode (talk) 20:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

steve cram

is a mackem [1]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

phil collingwood, is a mackem [2]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Heather mills is a mackem. [3]. 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

They have citations on them that say Geordie, and you clearly haven't read the citations.

those above are citations to prove they aren't geordies!!! 86.153.34.190 (talk) 20:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

From NUFC

I've removed the following from the NUFC article as it belongs here, and is probably duplicated here.

---

It is not known for sure where exactly the term Geordie comes from. However it has also been claimed that in 1745, George II recruited many troops from around the Newcastle area. They were known as "George's men", which became "Geordies men" in the local dialect, hence Geordies. However it seems to originate from the North East coal mining industry with miners being called Geordies (As referenced in Camden Hotten, John (1869). The Slang Dictionary, Or Vulgar Words, Street Phrases And Fast Expressions of High and Low Society. John Camden Hotten. pp. 142. "“Geordie, general term in Northumberland and Durham for a pitman, or coal-miner. Origin not known; the term has been in use more than a century."" . Which compliments the fact that North Eastern miners used Geordie lamps, which were miner's lamps developed by George Stephenson in 1815; that George was the most popular eldest boys name in the North East of England.

---

MickMacNee (talk) 19:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Disputed editing

Let's put this right.

1) Gregs the baker makes the claims that a number of people from the region of North East England are geordies, with references, however what he fails to understand is that these "references" are not valid or accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers and there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is from northeast england "which is wrong".

2) Many of these people claimed as "notable geordies" are from the wearside region, which is covered by a dialect and term named "mackem" and hence they have found their way into this article because of a mis-understanding. The mackem dialect is not always reconised, hence forth people mistake them for "geordies", hence sources like this and what has happened here.

3) since a mackem is a completely different thing and has been mistook on this article, the Ip wishes to remove these "mackems" or "wearsiders" because it is causing confusion. Yet Gregs the baker refuses to listen.

thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zogonthetyne (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Your definitions of a geordie and a mackem are WP:POV. The sources stand, unless you provide an official definition of a geordie (there isn't one, that is the whole point, these are not just 'mistakes, it is normal evolution of language), or a source from the person themselves disclaiming their geordieness. Other than that, I don't understand why you needed 3 bullet points to say the same thing. MickMacNee (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

-Heh, heh, heh, there is no official documentation as to what a Geordie is, and PS read Jack Commons quote. Also read all the references in the document.

Heh, heh, heh. --Gregs the baker (talk) 19:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a pathetic response, since there is no definition of a geordie, you can't accuse people of being them. You've just proved the references are invalid. Zogonthetyne (talk) 19:05, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• ? It's not an accusation, it's reporting a source. As I say, feel free to add sources disclaiming it, otherwise you are just POV pushing. MickMacNee (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

My edits are not POV, I am stating basic facts. I think we should come to the concensus that geordie is a misunderstood term, hence why the sources are invalid. Due to this point and due to being no actually definition we can't really point out who is a geordie and who isn't, etc we might not know these people, and hence they might just not speak the dialect, they might speak standard english, it can't be decided unless we met them, not with rubbish news sources which just take anyone from North East England as a geordie, I say to get rid of the section to prevent confusion, the same on Mackem. Zogonthetyne (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions and comments from a confused bystander

• This section starts with Zogonthetyne putting up three numbered paragraphs. In the first I read these "references" are not valid or accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers. I have a number of problems with that.
  • Why are they "references"? (As distinct from references.) Independent of its quality, reliability, source, or anything else for that matter, a reference is a reference.
  • I do not understand how a reference can not be valid. It might be irrelevant. It might reference false information. But a reference is a reference. I suppose it could be "not valid" if it referenced something that did not exist, but that is not the case here. So how can a reference be "not valid"?

Newspapers aren't sources, they're publishers - a source is an origin. Newspapers regurgitate, especially tabloids, so if you cite a newspaper as your source it should only be a newspaper that has itself stated its source, otherwise you're simply saying "It was published, that's good enough for me". You have to take into account the context, which is that the northeast of England is largely unknown and misunderstood in London. You should also be aware - and beware - that a lot of biographical data printed in newspapers is not verified by them, nor is it often obtained from the horse's mouth either. Heather Mills is a case in point: it was disputed whether she was born in the northeast, or in Aldershot. Newspapers were happy to print one or the other without bothering to check or verify. It can't be both. So, let's be clear: just because a newspaper thinks that 'Geordie' applies to everyone from the northeast does not make it so; it's possible to be misinformed, and to be misinformed is not to participate in 'evolution of the language', it is to be mistaken. So, check your facts before you cite and gloat over your dubious citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.77.130 (talk) 04:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

• • "not accurate". OK, a reference can be not accurate. But I read not ... accurate because they are from tabloid newspapers, and that doesn't follow at all! Yes, there is a lot of rubbish in tabloids, but not everything in tabloids is "not accurate"; such a statement is an inaccurate and unreliable generalisation.
  • Then we have the statement there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is from northeast england "which is wrong". If a geordie doesn't come from northeast england, which quadrant of england do they come from? I assume Zogonthetyne means something like: there has been a mis-understanding by the creators who presume a geordie is anyone who comes from any part of northeast england "which is wrong"? In any case, the statement is not backed up with any supporting argument or supporting evidence, so as it is, its simply a statement of POV.
• In the second numbered paragraph, again we have a statement of POV.
• Similarly the third numbered paragraph.
• These are followed by a bullet from MickMacNee saying (in my POV) "Your statements are POV. You need to provide supporting evidence".
• This is followed by a non-helpful statement from Gregs the baker.
• Zogonthetyne responds That is a pathetic response. Although I'm inclined to agree, obviously both the response and my inclination are POV, and neither are helpful. Then follows the statement You've just proved the references are invalid. Well, I've already stated my opinion on whether references can be invalid, and, as-far-as-I-can-tell, nobody has proven anything yet.
• This is followed by a bullet from MickMacNee repeating his earlier bullet. i.e. "Your statements are POV. You need to provide supporting evidence".
• Zogonthetyne responds "My edits are not POV, I am stating basic facts."

Well Zogonthetyne, I don't know about your edits and hence can't comment on your edits, (all I've noticed is that you are reverting other people's edits), but your statements sound very much like POV to me.
Could I impose upon you to clarify for me which are the basic facts that you are stating, and why they are facts and not opinion? I'm afraid I'm a bit confused by your line of reasoning, and would appreciate you clarifying it for me. Thank you in anticipation, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, sorry to say this after that large summary, but ZogontheTyne is banned indefinitely [4] so you might have a wait on your hands. MickMacNee (talk) 15:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This whole mackem/geordie thing is quite annoying, as always I blaim football. A lot of people try to make it so geordie is a Newcastle fan which of course those of us of sound mind (joke, joke!....or is it...:p) aren't. To me though the whole of the north east is geordie. I suppose what we'd really need is a seperate term for Newcastle folk or a entirely new term for north east people in general. Such OR wouldn't be for here though of course.--Him and a dog 12:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Who or what is Dobson Tyne?

I removed this sentence from the geordies of note section:

“Plus Geordieland means Northumberland and Durham” Dobson Tyne 1973

Has anyone got any idea what it refers to? MickMacNee (talk) 14:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to put a response in here MickMacNee, I've found a reference, and put it in Derivation of the term, though being lazy I havent put much context with it and linked it with say example the Hotton bit etc. Is that were you were planning on putting it if you had a reference for it?

I probably should have put it here to see what you had planned with it.

Anyway there is a reference there if you need it...--Gregs the baker (talk) 17:28, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Split the page?

I would suggest that this page should be split into 2 if not more pages, at the very least:

1: A page for the Geordie dialect. Clearly as the most distinctive dialect in England it is deserving of its own page.
2: A page about the actual 'Geordie people'. Of course this wouldn't involve going down the silly route of Cornish people. It'd just be more this current page without the language stuff- the origin of the term and that sort of thing.
Support/oppose? Why?--Him and a dog 12:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

A good idea. The fact is that some articles in other wikipedias are about the dialect only and some are just about local people. Don't you mind splitting the article? Arxatiri (talk) 09:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Offensive to Sunderlanders and Teessiders? / Smoggies?

"The label of Geordie has sometimes been claimed as offensive to some people from the Sunderland region. This is also the case with anyone from the Teesside area."

If I'm reading this right, it means that *some* people from Sunderland *may* be offended if they are referred to as Geordies, and *all* people from Teesside *will* be... Is this a fact - or a myth? I was born in M'bro, and yes I've been wrongly called a Geordie, but I wouldn't say I was offended. It's just a common mistake that Cockneys tend to make, bless them.

The term "Smoggies" (which I have never heard before, but then I don't live in Teesside any more) sounds to me like something dreamed up in a pub for people who actually aren't really called anything, sad though that might be. (Except for... well, let's not mention the monkey...) Anyway, when I was growing up, after the arrival of ICI and British Steel half the men in my street at least were Jocks, like me Dad, Jock, who'd come for the work. People like me who grew up in Redcar were sometimes referred to as "Scalybacks", because of the fishing and based on the much older term "Woollybacks" for people from the villages all around the Brotton area (the synonym "Sheep-shaggers" is surely more recent!) Teesside is a place full of rich and expressive language of many different kinds. But few outside the area really know or care. And it is quite sad to be defined, more or less, only as "people who are not, and don't like being called Geordies". But the streets of M'bro will probably not swarm with anthropologists and linguists any time soon researching into this, not if they are convinced that all they can expect is a punch in the gob for saying the wrong thing!

One last thing. I've taken out a reference to "Scouse" / "Merseyside" - I'm sure we can all agree that that's not in the North East.

I subscribe to the view the the terms "Smoggie" and also "Mackem" are modern inventions. Their use seems to have spread during the 1990's via the grapevine of football based fanzines, forums and radio phone ins. The earliest reference by the OED for "Mackem" (1988) feels about right to me. I am a native of Durham, went to school in Durham till 1985 and worked in Durham till 1990. I have followed Sunderland since 1976. However I first came across the term "Mackem" in about 1989, it was used as a mild derogatory term by a Newcastle United supporter I knew. I'd known this person for some time but never heard him use the term "Mackem" before. I needed to have it explained to me, I remember. In 1990 I started working in Newcastle where the term was by that time in common use. Although I lived in Durham I was known by many colleagues (male and female) as "the Mackem". It seemed to become used nationally as a term for people from Sunderland only after Sky TVs Saturday morning "Football AM" programme somehow seized upon the term, and started throwing it around for fun. Soon after everyone was using this word and then (most bizarrely) some people from Sunderland even started using it to describe themselves! I'd argue with anyone who says the term was in common use anywhere before the mid-1980s

I've only heard the term "Smoggie" used during baiting sessions on north east radio football phone-ins (such as "The three Legends" on Century) to describe Boro supporters. It relates to the pollution that used to be spewed out across Teesside for many years by the ICI works. It may well be permeating its way into everyday language, but I'm pretty confident that is where it started

Shaun from Durham —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.214.163.45 (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

81.107.23.174 (talk) 12:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Netty

What my sources show (and my knowledge of etymology...though I cannot use that as it would be original research) is that "netty"/"neddy"/"nettie" is not proven to be derived from a slang term used by Romans on the wall (who mostly spoke other 'first' languages other than latin, being mostly Iberian, Germans, Gauls, North Africans and various Eastern Europeans) but could come from a number of sources, the oldest suggestion I have found being that it's from the English 'need' nothing more and nothing less, with later suggestions (in tabloids mainly) stating it is from the Latin word and others from the Italian.

This is not proving that it isn't from the Roman soldiers (however unlikely it actually is), but that it is not currently certain what the words origins are. We cannot state it is from a Roman slang word (and there is, by the way, no evidence found for a slang word of this description; netti? netto? used by soldiers on the wall, not curved on a wall...etc...only speculation) when other (including far older sources) disagree. In other words (pun intended), it is unsettled as to were the root of the word lies.

P.S. I realise an article (written not by an etymologist, but by a journalist in a newspaper) claimed that it *IS* from a Roman slang word, wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopaedia (it isn't, but it should at least try to be encyclopaedic) and should not make such brash and bold claims. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 17:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

• Lets keep this simple and tell me if your premises are wrong my eyes are tired

Right your premise number 1 netty is not completely proven by slang term written on the wall.

This is not a bad premise Sig

Give me a fairly notable source that says netty is not proven by a slang term written on the wall.

If you can't find one, we will word the premise loosely without a citation so someone can question it and validate it at a later date.

Premise number 2 Netty comes from numerous sources

Right we can say using chronicological order of language, saying we have noted that latin uses it, that netty comes from latin and has worked its way into other descending languages; which we already have sources for. That means if it is in each of these and latin is the parent...

But I think, and I may be wrong, your real premise is the geordie term netty coould come from else where?

I can't see anywhere else from the romans saying we are not a romance language. Maybe there is a slight chance it is old english, but find a source and a source that uses the term netty.

Please find a notable source that says netty comes from people. Note the people you have mentioned speak a descending romance language from latin...

Your third premise is, there is no evidence of netty found on the wall

Personally I've seen it on a school trip, however there are sources that say it comes from the wall, saying it was written on a toilet.

Your fourth premise is it is not roman slang, there is no proof of it

Well the romans did use the word netty, and decsending languages use a form of it.

Please find a quality source that shows the romans did not use it that completely turns on the head the evidence of the wall.

Please look at the premises and show me sources.

Also you used a trotter or brocket source that had the word netty in it, but puzzingly that did not describe a toilet. Thus it was not validated. I'm sure there are numerous versions of this book, can you show me the page you seen the validated premise about the toilet netty in that book?

--77.97.69.24 (talk) 18:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not a bad premise Sig

Give me a fairly notable source that says netty is not proven by a slang term written on the wall.

If you can't find one, we will word the premise loosely without a citation so someone can question it and validate it at a later date.

As you well know, I have given three sources that say as much, none of which even claim that it is from a Roman slang word. So far you have only given sources (both based on the same ultimate source) from newspaper articles that say it is derived from a Roman slang word. Hardly definitive sources.

Personally I've seen it on a school trip, however there are sources that say it comes from the wall, saying it was written on a toilet.

Then please find a source that says as much! I myself live a stones throw away from the wall...which fort was it? You have no source that says the slang was found carved on the wall (though we do have fair bit of vandalism left over), only that Roman soldiers used this "slang word".

Well the romans did use the word netty, and decsending languages use a form of it.

Where is the evidence they used "netty"? English, including Northumbrian by the way is not a descending language...and as for descending languages, they themselves do not have words descending from "netty", but they do obviously have words related to "Gabinetto".

Actually gabinetto is dim. of the Italian gabbia ("cage" or "basket") from Middle Latin cavea, from Latin cauea[5] (meaning "hollow cavity", "enclosure", "eye sockets"...etc... this is also the root of the Modern English cave[6]). Are you saying that Roman soldiers, used a slang form of a word that did not even exist until hundreds of years after the Roman Period?

The Latin for "toilet" are words like lavatorium "place for washing" or latrina (the general word for toilet...hence the room in the Roman baths [7]), contraction of lavatrina "washbasin, washroom"[8],

Please find a quality source that shows the romans did not use it that completely turns on the head the evidence of the wall.

Please look at the premises and show me sources.

The linguistic evidence shows this, however I am not saying that we shouldn't mention the theory that it is from a Roman slang word, however to be neutral (as per Wikipedia's rules) we should also mention the other theories that you have been trying to censor. The fact still stands that the origin of the word is still uncertain, and not everyone agrees with one theory. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 11:27, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sig I have respected your sources but used them to mean bread = bread, not bread = spanners in a fallacy which I put on your talk regarding Netty

Your talk http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sigurd_Dragon_Slayer&oldid=235821950 Concerning your edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Geordie&diff=235786758&oldid=235772092

What I said on your talk,

Also someone (I think called Fran) removed one of your citations I respected, on nationmaster.

Also regarding TROTTER, I've used your source, the exact page was put into the template too and all he says on your source is it is a toilet, it says nothing about an old english meaning.

You can't cite something in a wiki to mean bread = spanners, it has to be bread = bread.

The Griffiths cite was worded right by me too.

Edit: Regarding your trotter cite source, which is here

Trotter Brockett, John (1829). A glossary of north country words, in use. From an original manuscript, with additions. With their etymology &c.. Oxford University. pp. 214. http://books.google.co.uk/books/pdf/A_glossary_of_north_country_words__in_us.pdf?id=m-8IAAAAQAAJ&output=pdf&sig=ACfU3U246jcCHcRmESGyTIkP9603yOaDZg. "NEDDY, NETTY, a certain place that will not bear a written explanation; but which is depleted to the very life in a tail-piece in the first edition of Bewick’s Land Birds, p. 285. In the second edition a bar is placed against the offending part of this broad display of native humour. Etymon needy, a place of need or necessity." 

Where does it say anything about an old english root meaning????

All it says is a netty is a 'native' place of necessity a 19th century euphenism for toilet.

BTW I'm not arguing, but I get the impression you are arguing for the sake of arguing, when there is no argument.

Edit again: Also there is nothing earlier found for netty than the roman wall. The romance period comes after the roman period.

Edit again (I'm the Ip and my adress might have changed again): You accused me of using opinions, which I could take offense to, but I think you have jumped the gun accidently. If you look at all my edits where I have put all your sources in quality templates, my edits using your sources is bread = bread. And I do not give any opinion either way. But regarding opinions, if you make a cite mean bread = spanners then that to me means you are giving commentry and abusing logical fallacy and cheating wiki.

Extra bit edited in on this discussion page that was not added to your talk:

No argument here: I've put in your sources you originally put in vague so you could cite your commentry, and I put them into quality templates with the precise wording you left out, I then matched them to premises that meant bread = bread, not bread = spanner...

You edited. And you cited bread = spanner, again, with these sources that are now more accurate through the templates I put in. It seems to me like you are perverting citations and giving commentry, using fallacy; you have twisted using strawman.

If you revert edit again I will make a symbolic edit, leaving it as you left it, but I will leave a link for other readers to see your perversion of logic. I'll also leave a comment on the history page.

--77.97.70.58 (talk) 14:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)--77.97.70.58 (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You have constantly removed or misinterpreted valuable sources, you have have a bias towards one theory where as I am referencing a few of them. The origin of "netty" is uncertain as my sources show

Firstly, you have not respected my sources, you have constantly removed them and to use, a similar anology, you have called bread an elephant.

Secondly you are subtly misquoting the John Trotter Brockett source right now, what he actually says is "Etymon. needy, a place of need or neccesity.", you have left out the emphasis on needy, which does not however (as you may or may not have thought) change the context of the source. The fact remains, that he connects the word netty (or neddy) not with some Roman slang, but with needy.

I know that Etymology is not your strong point, so I shall post the definition of "Etymon" [9].

• et·y·mon Pronunciation (t-mn)
• n. pl. et·y·mons or et·y·ma (-m)
• 1. An earlier form of a word in the same language or in an ancestor language. For example, Indo-European *duwo and Old English tw are etymons of Modern English two.
• 2. A word or morpheme from which compounds and derivatives are formed.
• 3. A foreign word from which a particular loan word is derived. For example, Latin duo, "two," is an etymon of English duodecimal.

So, he states that the etymon of netty is needy, and it does not take an etymologist to see that root source of needy is need [10] it is thus logical that the root word is the Old English níd (nied or ned depending on the Old English dialect)[11].

As for souce by Griffith, it says "MS locates a possible early ex. "Robert Hovyngham sall make... at the other end of his house a knyttyng" York 1419, in which case the root could be OE níd 'neccesary'" and thus despite your claims to the contrary both sources (the latter directly and the former indirectly) do claim that the word does ultimately derive from the Old English níd.

As for the nettoyer source, I shall admit that I should not have used that source, it was an error on my part, however I would like to point out that the source in question claimed that the source of netty was nettoyer, and when the source was removed (or tagged as uncited as it actually was) it was in some part due to your claiming that the Latin source of the Italian gabinetto was also the source of nettoyer (which the nationmaster source does not claim).

And why do you keep saying that the Romance period is after the Roman Period when that is exactly what I have been saying, hence I posted the Latin root of gabinetto (a Romance word, from Modern Italian) and showed you that the Latin word does not look much like netty or even gabinetto but was cavea, the -netto was a later Italian addition thus making it the dim. form of gabbia. As the Latin word was cavea then how is it the definite source of netty. Cavea>Netty not that likely when you look at the evidence and thus I would not myself, suggest including that it could come from a Latin slang word, 'however as at least one source (as unreliable as it is) states that it does, then we should indeed include the fact that it *COULD* (not *DOES*) come from a Latin slang word

As for this word being found as graffiti on the wall, please find a source that says so, the current source only says "the Geordie word "netty" for lavatory derives from Roman word slang on Hadrian's Wall which became "gabinetto" in Italian." and thus do not mention any graffiti only that this Roman could be found on Hadrian's Wall.(what was that about calling bread a spanner, again?). And this source [12] *DOES NOT* even say what you claim. It only mentions the Westoe Netty, not the origin of the word, and certainly has nothing about Roman slang found on Hadrian's Wall. You only have one source that claims it is derived from a Roman slang word, from another newspaper article. As I have said before, one mention from a newspaper is not definitive proof. Newspapers do not have quality controls like encyclopaedias or university books on Etymology are supposed to have!

And back to your claim '"...there is nothing earlier found for netty than the roman wall. The romance period comes after the roman period." but we have no evidence that netty was found on the Roman Wall, the earliest possible (not proven, but possible) source for the word was found in York in the 1400s (as one of my sources shows), the 1400s is a long time after the Roman period, by the way.

And please don't say you went on a school trip and saw the word netty carved on the wall, and expect it to be taken as evidence, by the same token, I can claim that I am Northumbrian and have been many times to the Wall, however I would not do this as it would be original research anyway (and thus against Wikipedia's policy).

I on one hand wish to state the fact that there is not universal agreement on the origins of the word netty, it could be from this, or this, or even that. If it was definately from a Latin slang word then how come the only etymologists stated do not mention this and instead connect it to other sources (possibly the modern Italian gabinatto the Modern English Needy or Old English Níd).

You added your own opinion in stating that there was not enough Italian immigration into Northern England for the source to be Italian. It must be stated that there was not that much Italian immigration to Northern England, compared to Souther England but there was some as a quick google would show. ([13], [14]). You then tried to source this opinion to articles that didn't even mention Italian migration at all! Another one of your opinions is that needy is "an embarrassing 19th Centuary euphemism for going to the loo" (you also stated that the source claimed netty as an equivalent to needy when the source clearly stated that needy is it's etymon, though I have covered that earlier)!

I am not afraid of your 'symbolic revert' as I think the sources speak for themselves and everyone who reads this post can see my reasoning. It will only show your agenda. I am trying to make this article as accurate to the truth as I can, whereas you only take one source at face value, claim it to be fact and then misinterpret all sources to the contrary. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 19:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sigurd I've left a message on your talk--77.97.69.16 (talk) 12:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC) removed typos! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 14:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I have nothing more to say on the matter. I have made the section as neutral as possibly, I have given reasons for my actions. Admitted my mistakes (the nettoyer reference, which I have myself removed) and I think now we can get on with wor lives.

P.S. Please can you not swear on my talk page, it is not very becoming and fairly abusive. I do not mind the f-word being used in it's proper context (either to reference the act of love making or it's older usages) however I do not like it being used out of context and in an abusive manner. I will let it go this time, however please bear in mind that it is against Wiki's rules. Thank you. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 15:19, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

As a new contributor I was surprised at the rather short list of geordie vocabulary that you have collected. I have attempted to add these words in the past but they have always been 'bounced' for lack of attribution. These are dialect words used in common speech NOT used in written language. How do we get round this issue? Words that are missing include: Lonnen (a lane) Gallases (a pair of braces) Gansey (a seaman's jumper) Tappy lappy (to go quickly) As in:- if you cannut say 'Wor lass is gannin tappy-lappy doon the lonnen' and kna what yer just said yer not a geordie.Pangbourne (talk) 09:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello-is anyone out there? How do I add commonly used but (possibly) unattributed Geordie words, the most obvious being 'stott' to bounce and 'fair stotten doon' meaning it is pouring with rain?Pangbourne (talk) 21:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Howay/haway

The article says its due to different aggression....I've not heard this.

I thought it was just down to different dialects. IIRC Sunderland and much of Co.Durham tends towards haway whilst Newcastle and regions north of the tyne use howay.--Him and a dog 14:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It's to do with how the two sides pronounced the initial "a". Geordies lean towards pronouncing the letter similar to the sound as represented by Scandinavian 'å' (which is said like "aw" in "saw"). Whereas mackems lean towards pronouncing the letter like 'æ' (said like "a" in "cat"). I'm from Washington and here we tend to shift between pronunciations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.107.53.36 (talk) 10:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I spent most of my life living in northern Co.Duraham (men jag bor på sverige ;) ) and there its mostly said ha'way- though another word 'Howa' (no ending y) tends to be used too.--Him and a dog 21:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

As I recall - the Newcastle newspapers, i.e. the Journal and Evening Chronicle spell it Howay, while the Sunderland Echo spells it Ha'way. This is presumably verifiable. It's not always as clear cut as that if you go purely by accent. Dominic Cronin (talk) 21:43, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Geordie's Lost His Liggie (done)

bit off topic, but can anybody here translate part of the lyrics of Geordie's lost his liggie from the band Geordie? talking about "liggie", "netty", "poss stick". thanks! --Sharecheck (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

according to this article netty means toilet. --Sharecheck (talk) 23:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

and liggy = marble --Sharecheck (talk) 18:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

thx --Sharecheck (talk) 18:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC) :P

I feel that this article...

• Is missing something very key - the phonology of Geordie. I am certain that earlier on, there was a description of Geordie's sounds, which I think is more key than a very long list of words. As the article is very long already, I do think that it would benefit from a split between Geordie as a demonym and Geordie as a dialect. As a previous editor suggested, one of the more distinctive dialects of the UK could do with this.

All the best,

User:It's-is-not-a-genitive

• i should say, coming to this page, it seems to speak geordie, all i have to do is learn a bunch of words. is there no specific phonology? quite curious for there to be none in the article. like you said, it's kind of a key thing to have. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.104.9.227 (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

it's not scram man, its scran

scram is what y'dee to an nooclear reactor man. get it reet like.

90.240.32.189 (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC) A common Geordie word I was surprised not to see in this excellent article was ‘clarts’, meaning dirt or clay. "The Isrealeets came doon the moontain side, hurlin’ firey balls, clemmys* and clarts."

• Clemmy was a pit prop.

Its derivative, ‘clarty’, means trivial, worthless, etc. My Mother used to sing a song: "Where ye gannin, Bill?" "Sellin’ matches." "Whee for, Bill?" "Me Uncle Harry." "What’d ye get, Bill?" "A clarty ha’penny!" "Deen’t gan Bill, nee mair!" I was also surprised to find James Bolam missing from the list: what about "The Likely Lads" and "When the Boat Comes In"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.202.197.115 (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC) Get it right lad , Clarty means dirty, sticky mud which we have lots of in the north east, look up boulder clay if you want to know why, the ha'penny in your song was dirty, not worthless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.14.179 (talk) 14:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC) Is a dirty joke really covered in dirt then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.202.193.237 (talk) 11:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Myths about Geordie

I've removed several sentences claiming that Geordie is closer to Old English than other English dialects and hasn't been affected as much by French and other languages. This is completely untrue - Geordie is no closer to Old English than any other English dialect and has as many loans from other languages as other English dialects. See 'Some Myths about Geordie' for further details. Jharris48 (talk) 16:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Police

Growing up in West Denton in the 1950s the police were always referred to as the pollis, not the pollit. "Watch oot the Pollis is ganna ge' ye". Dad had a full career in the Pollis at Westgate Road and later Byker, so I should know. So I'm not sure what is meant in the article by pollis being a recent shift in pronunciation . --MichaelGG (talk) 12:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Vocabulary vs. pronunciation

The vocabulary list contains a lot of words that have the same meaning in English, but are simply pronounced differently, like book/buk; surely these aren't good examples of Geordie vocabulary. I'll refrain from editing the article, as I'm neither a native English speaker nor a linguist, but it seems logical to me to remove these words from the list, or move them to a seperate list. 78.23.228.141 (talk) 02:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I came here having just seen two episodes of Geordie Shore(!). Yes things like neet aren't unique words but are just renderings of the accent (pronunciation of "night"). Makes the article seem a bit jokey. I mean, there are dozens of dialects and accents of English but they don't all have these funny lists attempting to render the accent like that. Also, where's "tash", "pot"? Format (talk) 22:02, 1 October 2011 (UTC)