Talk:Gibraltar

Sources

• Primary sources
• Secondary sources

Olympic Committee

The article contained references to an Olympic Ctte for Gibratltar without providing any sources. I have deleted the reference until apt. sources can be included (I previously flagged citation was needed). WP:Verification etc. 84.203.74.43 (talk) 19:00, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Special Member State territory of the United Kingdom.

Is Gibraltar a a Special Member State territory of the United Kingdom? Is there any source for this? What I mean is this: Does EU law recognise Gibraltar as a United Kingdom territory?....I am really looking for a specific answer based on references to EU legal sources; my understanding from the EU Treaties is that the EU deliberately takes no position on sovereignty as regards Gibraltar. Any takers for this query? 84.203.74.43 (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Given that Spain recognises British sovereignty over Gibraltar, it would be quite surprising if the EU didn't. Pfainuk talk 20:14, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Joe Bossano accused Britain of repeatedly overlooking Gibraltar in its negotiations with the European Union, citing, as an example, the Union's companies directive. "To avoid doubts, it defines what a company is in each member state. Well, the Gibraltar Companies Ordinance {Act} is not there...We've got a nightmare situation in our constitutional relationship,...It is a case of criminal negligence on the part of the UK. They are responsible for us as a colony, and they took us into the EC in 1973." Ref: JOHN HOOPER IN GIBRALTAR. The Guardian (pre-1997 Fulltext) [Manchester (UK)] 22 Nov 1993 Proquest (User talk:MacStep) 21:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC) Log on with

Re User Pfainuk...I don't really understand your comment; Spain does not recognise British sovereignty there I think.

Re Joe Bossano...The comment tended to back up what I thought...that the EU does not recognise British sovereignty..but I was looking for something more definitive (for or against). So any help would be appreciated. 84.203.74.43 (talk) 19:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a common misconception. Spain disputes only the extent of British sovereignty in Gibraltar, not the fact of it. References are in the article.

Re Joe Bossano, the point is that it is Britain who takes responsibility here. Note also that Gibraltar became part of the EU in 1973, not 1986, as is clear from the 1972 Treaty of Accession and from the article Special Member State territories and the European Union. Pfainuk talk 19:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Is Gibraltar a Member State? No. Did it get a special mention in the Treaty on European Union? No. How come it is in the European Union? Because, prior to British entry, the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) made provision to include the United Kingdom, together with (for certain purposes) the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar ^Ref MacStep (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Pfainuk - No one asked whether the UK takes responsibility for Gibraltar (obviously it does). You seem to be suggesting that the 1972 Treaty of Accession is evidence that the EU has taken the position that Gibraltar is a UK territory. But that Treaty does not mention Gibraltar at all - [1]; cross-referring generally into a Wikipedia article (obviously I've read it but it doesn't answer my question) doesn't get us anywhere either. My question really isn't that complicated to understand; it's not a question about UK laws or the UK's position - it is the question I set out above; I've put the question in bold.

MacStep - No one asked if Gibraltar was a Member State; You are right that it did not get a special mention in the Treaty - A logical question that flows from that is WHY is it not mentinoed? It is dealt with indirectly by "Article 355(3) (ex Article 299(4))"which applies the treaty to "the European territories for whose external relations a Member State is responsible", a provision which in practice only applies to Gibraltar. Why this peculiar provision? Why is Gibraltar not listed like any of the other territories (e.g. Isle of Man and others)? You quoted Joe Bossano pointing to the difficulty relating to Company Law for Gibraltar because of discrepancies; why do these discrepancies arise - its a related question. Again, is this because the EU takes no position on the question of sovereignty over Gibraltar? No one has gone near dealing directly with my question yet. I'm 100% open to informed views based on references to EU law; I'm not interested in POV, just a proper answer 84.203.74.43 (talk) 17:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

The point I made is included in the article I gave you and the reference is in the article I pointed you at. If you think that article doesn't answer your question then I suggest you reread it. What you have there is not the full treaty, as is made obvious from Article 1, Section 2 of the document. The points made by Special Member State territories and the European Union are both accurate and accurately referenced.

And in any case, you're ignoring the fact that Spain recognises British sovereignty over Gibraltar. As referenced in this article. You're effectively saying, with no evidence beyond speculation, that the EU takes a position that is very significantly more pro-Spanish than even the Spanish government argues for. This is not a logical argument. Pfainuk talk 18:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Pfainuk - I could not make head nor tail of what you said in your first para above.

Re me ignoring that Spain recognises British sovereignty - the Wikipedia article says it disputes it so I can't make much sense of that either - I am still no further on in finding an answer to my question. 84.203.74.43 (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

If a Wikipedia article says that Spain disputes the existence of British sovereignty in Gibraltar then that Wikipedia article is wrong. This one doesn't. Spain's position is that Gibraltar is under British sovereignty, but with limited extent. Spain also argues that Britain should give sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain. This is all referenced in this article, and the reference is the official position as expressed by the Spanish Foreign Ministry. I find it highly unlikely that the EU takes a more pro-Spanish line here than the Spanish government does.

The treaty you cited said this:

“

The conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties establishing the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community necessitated thereby are set out in the Act annexed to this Treaty. The provisions of that Act concerning the European Economic Community and the European Atomic Energy Community shall form an integral part of this Treaty.

”

In other words, what you cited is not the full treaty. This should be obvious anyway - the idea that you could add three new members to such a complex organisation based on nothing but a four-page treaty (including title page) is absurd. The Acts that this refers to do make reference to Gibraltar, as cited by the article Special Member State territories and the European Union. Pfainuk talk 20:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

You are right that the Act makes reference to Gibraltar; that is useful to know - the question as to why the Treaties don't is outstanding and why the peculiar language in Art 299(4); Was that language an attempt to fudge on sovereignty over Gibraltar?

About the Spanish position, there is an entire article (very poorly written) on the dispute here on Wikipedia; it's so badly written that its hard to ascertain much from reading it. What you said above does not exactly clarify matters either. What on Earth does accepting some one's "Sovereignty" but with "limited extent" mean?!

Here are a few quotations from the Spanish Government's website (various docs; just google Gibraltar within the domain gob.es):

• "The British colony of Gibraltar is an anomaly in today‟s Europe. It poses security problems for Spain and Europe in several domains, which require effective solutions."[Spanish Security Strategy document] - Calling Gibraltar a "colony" does not suggest respect for British sovereignty there;
• 51-2009. COMMUNIQUÉ OF THE MINISTERIAL MEETING OF THE FORUM OF DIALOGUE ON GIBRALTAR - Last para reads "We look forward to being able to reach agreements within this framework for the next Ministerial meeting of the Forum in 2010. We have reaffirmed that, as was the case with the Cordoba Statements, any agreements in these areas would have no implications whatsoever regarding sovereignty and jurisdiction." Why are they mentioning sovereignty etc here? What position are they reserving on; clearly there is some dispute on sovereignty here - otherwise it would not be mentioned.
• "There are four aspects to the approach, which we’ve adopted in these discussion; Preserving Gibraltar’s unique way of life, greater self-government and internal self-government for Gibraltar; practical benefit through cooperation and putting this long-running dispute about sovereignty to rest." - Jack Straw in 2002, quoted on the website; why is he referring to a dispute about sovereignty if there is none?
• "There are four aspects to the approach, which we’ve adopted in these discussion; Preserving Gibraltar’s unique way of life, greater self-government and internal self-government for Gibraltar; practical benefit through cooperation and putting this long-running dispute about sovereignty to rest." - Another statement from the Website; why are the UN General Assembly urging talks etc; if sovereignty is settled, what is there to talk about?

On the whole, I think it is clear there is a sovereignty dispute in play here. The Wikipedia article on the whole issue of such low quality, it's nigh impossible to make out anything much from it; but even those quotes above show there is a sovereignty dispute. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 10:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Moreover, the Wiki article, Disputed status of Gibraltar, (as I say really badly written and sourced though it is) says:

• "The United Kingdom joined the European Union (EU) on 1st Jaunuary 1973 at the same time as Gibraltar which was included as a Special Member State territory under the UK's Treaty of Accession in 1972." Where in the Accession Treaty does it say Gibraltar is a "Special Member State territory"?
• "The claim was reactivated during the 1950s and especially during the 1960s by the Spanish dictator Francisco Franco, as a means of cohesion of public opinion and obtaining support for the dictatorship." This sentence doesn't specify what the claim is exactly but sounds like they are referring to a claim to Gibraltar here!
• "in July 2009, Miguel Ángel Moratinos to Gibraltar to discuss a range of mutual issues. This was the first official Spanish visit since Gibraltar was ceded. During the press conference, he said that the claim to sovereignty could not be given up by Spain." How can it then be said that Spain does not dispute UK sovereignty?

I don't want to turn this into a discussion on the sovereignty question as such; I would rather it focussed on the EU position (my original question). However, I have had to get into the "sovereignty question" to deal with what has been said. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 10:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the article Disputed status of Gibraltar is very badly written and does not adequately describe the situation. If a Wikipedia article says that Spain disputes British sovereignty over Gibraltar in general, then that article is wrong, though this is a common misconception. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get agreement on any significant change to Gibraltar-related articles.

Spain's position in detail is:

• Spain recognises the fact of British sovereignty over Gibraltar.
• Spain does not recognise British sovereignty over the isthmus between La Línea de la Concepción and the Rock of Gibraltar (which is controlled by Gibraltar).
• Spain does not recognise any right to airspace, territorial waters etc. arising from British sovereignty over Gibraltar.
• Spain argues that Britain should relinquish its sovereignty over Gibraltar to Spain.

You can reference this to the Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs as per this article.

You are ultimately welcome to speculate as to what exactly the EU means when it refers to "a European territory for whose external relations a Member State is responsible", provided that you do not do so in Wikipedia articles. For my part, I personally take it as doing little more than allow for the possibility that a similar situation may arise in the future - for example, with respect to British bases in Cyprus, the Crown Dependencies or the Faroe Islands. But I won't be putting that in a Wikipedia article either. Pfainuk talk 10:52, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the above; I will read the La Línea de la Concepción you suggest; hopefully it will have sources backing up what you are saying. I am not into speculating at all, here or anywhere - simply interested in determining the true position as to whether the EU has taken a position on UK sovereignty over Gibraltar; a question you have not answered save referring to a reference to "Gibraltar" in the Act appended to the Treaty of Accesssion. My question remains. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I've just had a look at the article - it doesn't say anything about sovereignty at all. What article are you even referring to! Once again, if you are not talking about the La Línea de la Concepción article, I can't make head nor tail of what you are saying (again). I've listed various things above pointing to a sovereignty dispute with UK and Spain; none of these have been addressed by the La Linea article. Finally, why don't you fix the Gibraltar article if you know it is frankly rubbish and if you are knowledgable about the topic? Please do; I would certainly support you in trying to re-write it based on apt. references all the way through. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 14:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

The quetions above need answers...but I suppose I should add this too "Is it speculation to say that the EU considers Gibraltar a "Special Member State territory of the United Kingdom" if no one advances a source for this? Is that OR? Things are not in good order here. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 14:56, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

For good measure, when you say:

"Spain's position in detail is:

• Spain recognises the fact of British sovereignty over Gibraltar.
• Spain does not recognise British sovereignty over the isthmus between La Línea de la Concepción and the Rock of Gibraltar (which is controlled by Gibraltar).
• Spain does not recognise any right to airspace, territorial waters etc. arising from British sovereignty over Gibraltar.
• Spain argues that Britain should relinquish its sovereignty over Gibraltar to Spain."

That's all very neat and tidy...but you haven't sourced anything and no wiki article says any of this...What are you asking me to do? How can I know if any of what you are saying is true. Where is the back up? You seem to be saying go off and find out the answers on the Dept. of Foregin Affairs website in Spain....Surely the answers should be put in the Wiki articles. If you know the sources for all of this...add them in...and or at least provide them. It seems you just want me to take your word for all this..........This is all a bit crazy. You could be right about all of this but how can I know........You could be entirely wrong and the things I quoted (i.e. referenced) above suggested that there certainly is a sovereignty dispute (complete, not just part of the territory). 84.203.40.1 (talk) 15:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I have pointed out several times now that this is referenced in this article. I can't force you to read the article or the references, but if you're not prepared to do so I suggest you don't complain that things aren't referenced.

Nothing I said in my previous comment either stated or implied that there were likely to be references for this point in the article on La Linea. As it happens, I linked it only because I thought it might be useful for you to understand La Linea's geographical location, and where the area of dispute actually is.

If there is no proposal for change here, I suggest that this conversation end per WP:NOTFORUM. Pfainuk talk 15:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

We are going around in circles; you admit that the article is pretty useless and it doesnt say the things you say but you keep referring me to it. You should able to reference your claims above but you choose not to. That's your choice. You can choose to stop participating in the conversation if you wish.

My question remains unanswered and is now not just one question but at least two (1) Does Spain claim sovereignty over Gibraltar? and (2) Does EU law recognise Gibraltar as a United Kingdom territory? Again, any takers? Thanks. 84.203.40.1 (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the first question: Pfainuk is right about Spain recognizing but not agreeing with British sovereignty over Gibraltar (except for a few square km where it neither recognizes nor agrees). I understand your doubts when you look at the WP articles. There was some discussion regarding the convenience (or not) of including 3 para about the dispute. We almost reached consensus once, but in the end we started a different discussion and everybody stepped back from their concessions. The result is that there is a very unsatisfying vacuum around the dispute in the article.

During the discussion we gathered a very interesting amount of sources. You can find them here:

• Primary sources
• Secondary sources

Regarding your question, I especially recommend that you follow the link of Spain's Ministry of Foreign Affairs in order to understand its position (although it is in Spanish).

The proposed text (which neither completely satisfied nor was unacceptable for any side -which means that it was quite good), was:

“

While recognising British sovereignty over Gibraltar, Spain disputes its extent, claiming the Southern part of the isthmus connecting the Rock to the mainland and the territorial waters and airspace around Gibraltar. Spain requests the return of Gibraltar citing the principle of territorial integrity.[2]

”

“

The UK, although open to negotiate this request, cites the principle of self-determination, and will never enter into sovereignty arrangements against the wishes of Gibraltarians. The UK also accepts a provision in the Treaty of Utrecht that states that upon a British withdrawal, the territory must first be offered to the Spanish crown. Gibraltar does not accept that this limits its right to self-determination.

”

“

Gibraltar remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories. The UK and Gibraltar argue that under the criteria specified by UN Resolution 1541 Gibraltar has been decolonised, meriting removal. Spain supports its retention arguing that Gibraltar has not been decolonised as required by UN Resolution 1514.

”

Cheers. -- Imalbornoz (talk) 14:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello. Just to respond to the second question (granted a bit late!) what I can say is that Gibraltarians vote for their MEPs through the UK. Some would consider this de facto recognition of UK sovereignty over Gibraltar, but obviously this is controversial. If you are looking for some sort of formal EU declaraton that the UK has sovereignty over Gibraltar, you are unlikely to find it - there is no legal basis for such a declaration under the Treaties (everything the EU does must have a legal basis) - of course, it is also a political issue. There is an Annex to the Treaties (#55) from Spain and the UK jointly on the application of the Treaties to Gibraltar. (Connolly15 (talk) 15:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC))

National anthem

'The Gibraltar anthem' is the local anthem, or unofficial national anthem. The official national anthem is 'God Save the Queen', in common with every other British overseas territory. See CIA World factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gi.html

National anthem:

name: "Gibraltar Anthem" lyrics/music: Peter EMBERLEY note: adopted 1994; serves as a local anthem; as a territory of the United Kingdom, "God Save the Queen" remains official (see United Kingdom)

This got reverted when I changed it. Why was this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.119.242 (talk) 10:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

To answer your question: as the reverter's edit summary implies, it probably got reverted because you did not explain the change in an edit summary and did not provide a source.

Substantively, I agree with you. Some Commonwealth countries that are sovereign states and are responsible for their own foreign affairs but have Queen Elizabeth II as their head of state (like Australia and Canada) have their own official national anthem but also use God Save the Queen as the royal anthem when the Queen or her representative is present. But Britain retains sovereignty of Gibraltar, and God Save the Queen remains the official anthem. The Gibraltar Anthem is sometimes referred to as the "national song", "local anthem", or "unofficial national anthem".--Boson (talk) 12:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Demography pic

The first picture in the Gibraltar#Demography section is rotated wrongly to left. The floor of the church is to right and the roof is to left, while they should be down & up. I could fix it, but can't upload it. 82.141.119.188 (talk) 07:34, 5 October 2011 (UTC)