Talk:Great Pyramid of Giza

Removal of 14-20yr construction period

The article says that "It is believed the pyramid was built as a tomb for fourth dynasty Egyptian pharaoh Khufu and constructed over a 14 to 20-year period". This is not accurate as general consensus among egyptologists accept Herodotus's 20yr period while the 14yr time frame is offered by only one egptologist: John Rohmer. Until Rohmer's opinion has enough weight to change scholarly consensus so that the textbooks are rewritten then the accepted time of construction should remain at 20yrs. If Rohmer's opinion is to be included it is to be as a stated opinion. Also, the 20yr period does not require a reference as it is common knowledge and general consensus.Thanos5150 (talk) 21:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

20 years is not definite and I've changed the lead to make that clear. I've replaced Romer's suggestion of 14 years attributing it to him. Dougweller (talk) 07:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Of course the 20 year period should be referenced and explained somewhere it's been questioned and discussed here often enough to need that, see the archives. And have you forgotten how keen you were to have a section discussing a very minor fringe claim about 27 years? I hope you won't remove Romer's shorter time suggestion, that's only a sentence whereas you wanted (working from memory here, don't lambaste me if I'm wrong) a section for the 27 years claim. @Dougweller (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Then why did you make that edit in the first place? The 14-20 yrs and the Romer source comes from you. The problem Doug is that you purposefully misused one source; one opinion, to make the statement it took 14-20 years to construct in the leads of two different sections as if this were the accepted consensus of egyptologists at large which you know it is not. You did this because personally you favor a lesser construction time as well and want to weasel that in there somehow. Conventional wisdom holds to 20yrs which is what we observe for general statements of fact and the opinion of one person does not qualify to expand that statement. If it is to be included it needs to be duly noted as that person's opinion in the relevant section. You know this isn't appropriate better than anyone Doug, yet still you do it. You did a similar thing using Romer as a source for the time of the Red Pyramid's construction completely ignoring 20yrs of study by Stadelman, the lead archeologist, who unlike Romer is an actual egyptologist not to mention one of the greats in the field.

Regardless of the source, did I use the Booker quote of 27yrs in the lead to say "it is believed it took 20-27yrs to construct the Great Pyramid"? Of course not. I wouldn't have done that even if Petrie had said it because the overwhelming popular consensus says otherwise. And yes, you are wrong so you can lambaste yourself on your own time. The Booker 27yrs was one paragraph out of several topics in the Alternative Section, and no, I was not "keen" to have a whole section devoted to it and was totally appropriate it be there in that context. And again, at risk of beating a dead horse, Booker's is not a "fringe claim"-he was the Technical Director of the Indiana Limestone Institute, the problem is that it came from a fringe book.

Alternative times for construction should be discussed elsewhere and though I would not remove the Romer quote entirely it should be moved to an appropriate section where other opinions are offered as well. Romer is a self proclaimed historian, artist, and a TV host and not even an actual egyptologist, and if his opinions were more unorthodox he wouldn't even be allowed as a source, so please refrain from giving his opinions undue weight.Thanos5150 (talk) 22:49, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't care if it took 14 or 20 years, I simply read Romer and thought it was interesting. As for Romer, you left out that in 1977-1979, he originated and organised an excavation of the tomb of Ramesses XI for the Brooklyn Museum, that he is referred to in The Routledge dictionary of Egyptian gods and goddesses by George Hart and other reliable sources as an Egyptologist. As far as 'self-proclaimed', that's just nonsense, you've described how he made his living - he really is those things, that's just a slur. Dougweller (talk) 06:03, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, right. At this point I'd be worry more about your own integrity than John Romer's.

Does Romer have a degree in history? Archeology? Egyptology? No. Romer is obviously a qualified individual, but many other sources are disqualified by the same standards, regardless of their experience, even though unlike Romer most often have higher degrees in other fields. There is a hypocrisy of convenience here that is all too common on Wiki. I can ignore those things to discredit Romer or include it to give him credibility. Funny how that works, huh? And it's not a slur to say Romer is not an accredited Egyptologist because he is not . I am done with this matter.Thanos5150 (talk) 18:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Good, because you are becoming boring. No one has mentioned him being or even not being accredited, what would be a slur would be to say he's not an Egyptologist. Dougweller (talk) 18:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, very boring I agree. See topic above: Someone Forgot to do some math here IMO.... "With all due respect , John Romer has an Arts degree , and is glorified eighties television presenter. A good one as it may be. He isn't a historian , nor a mathematician , nor a current day construction foreman , nor mason . I would like to put the reliability of this source in question". No one except for that guy I guess.Thanos5150 (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm supposed to take seriously an IP whose only edits were at this talk page? This isn't a forum, we depend upon what the sources say. Fortunately. And you said you were done. Dougweller (talk) 05:04, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

During Petrie's research on the pyramid, I have been reading of the measurements he made of the inclination angle of the sides, as well as the angles of the shafts and chambers. The average deviation of angle of just the casing stones is +/- .01 of an inch. I could go on, but his measurements go on to the inner chambers and shafts with deviation of +/- .02 of an inch. The granite inside the King's Chamber has also been measured with optical gauges and is as accurate as an industrial gauge plate, on all blocks except the support blocks for the roof, which are smooth only on 3 sides. Coming from a manufacturing background in fiber optic components, I find it hard to believe ancient pyramid builders had our gauging equipment, as well as personnel that could 'carve by hand' granite rocks by eye with 'copper' tools that are softer than the rocks they are cutting, to that kind of precision, in abundance and efficiently to match the time scale. Modern estimates made by limestone masons from Indiana place a time scale of 27 years +/- 1 year just to query the limestone at all 33 queries under triple capacity (not including transportation of the material). The precision of the structure should be duly noted and the time scale portion should be replaced with modern estimates at the very least (especially considering that we would be using modern hydraulic lifting cranes and silicon carbine cutting wire powered my massive machines, along with thousands of workers). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.206.24.176 (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If you are Thanos editing logged out, we discussed the Merle Booker claim (it's in the archives) and not only did no one present any evidence other than Richard Noone's book that this study ever happened, there's no evidence it's been discussed in sources meeting our criteria at WP:RS. Our articles are based on what reliable sources say about a subject as you should know. Dougweller (talk) 21:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

No, Doug. This was not me, but thanks once again for the snarky unwarranted comments. I do not have a manufacturing background in fiber optics and regardless am always happy to sign my posts. Hopefully this user will sign his posts. Thanos5150 (talk) 22:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think my comment was snarky, it certainly wasn't meant to be, and you have, as I have in the past, edited not logged in and not realising it not signed it. Dougweller (talk) 06:17, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

So why add "as you should know" if not snark? And why would I just go into some long winded OR riff 3 months later about engineering not really even related to the discussion? Someone mentions the Booker stuff and you assume it is me when common sense, and my history, should tell you otherwise. Isn't their some Wiki rule about Good Faith?Thanos5150 (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it does mean that you should accept that my comments weren't meant to be snarky. I was puzzled but made the false assumption that no one else would bring up Noone. And I repeat, you have edited before logged out. That's not a problem, just affected my perception. Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Read 'Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh' 13 & 77. All the measurements are recorded there. Quote - casing stones: 'The eastern joint of the northern casing stones is on the top .020, .002, .045 wide; and on the face .012, .022, and .040 wide. The next joint is on the face .001 and .014 wide. Hence the mean thickness of the joints is .020; and, therefore, the mean variation of the cutting of the stone from a straight line and from a true square, is but .010 on length of 75 inches up the face, an amount of accuracy equal to most modern opticians' straight edges of such length." - William F. Petrie, 1882 'Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh', 13 Even if you discount Booker, what of the precision? Anyone who is in specialized fields involving manufacturing of anything from homes to electronics will say that to maintain a precision level of that magnitude on that large of a scale would take generations without proper modern measuring gauges and machining tools. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.203.102 (talk) 00:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Also, just food for thought, the human eye cannot distinguish a tolerance level of that magnitude. Most modern structures have a .25 inch +/- threshold or accuracy, with a angular give of +/- 1 degree — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.203.102 (talk) 00:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Take it to a forum, this discussion is inappropriate here, this is not a venue for discussing the construction of the pyramid. See the bit at the top saying this isn't a forum. I'll be deleting this later. Dougweller (talk) 05:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The section named "Regarding discussion above and COI contributions in general" should be removed as well. It contains nothing regarding article improvement, only unwarranted personal attacks which has no place in article talk pages. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Regarding discussion above and COI contributions in general

For Doug, If the talk page is for improving an article, I am not quite sure why you wrote (at least twice) that this is not a forum to Thanos when they were discuss how to improve the article. Thanos gave you feedback regarding edits in an effort to improve the article and it seems you did not agree and pushed back by mentioning the forum thing and also saying you shouldn't take and IP seriously when their only edits are on the talk page. I do not see how that is relevant other than being a jab that could be taken as a personal attack.

You are in violation of consensus, personal attack, vandalism, conflict of interest, and gaming the system. Not just this article, but ALL your contributions fall under this category. Please do not take this as a personal attack. Telling the truth is not a personal attack. Given your history on the Internet and usenet which is within the exact same areas of interest as here, you should have all your edits reverted and your account removed on conflict of interest alone. It's like Jim Fetzer being allowed the write JFK's article. Thanos point is well-meaning and relevant to the article, you accept a source when it is convenient to your opinion and POV but you would also find a way to reject the same source if it conflicted with your opinion and POV. Gaming the system. I understand if you object to something that is even borderline fridge and goes against consensus, this is an encyclopedia after all. But your history indicates you will go out of the way to reject edits based on sources which you would otherwise consider credible if they suited your edits. This isn't a forum, I know. But if there is an obstacle to improving this article or any archeology/ancient history article it is your contributions. Maybe Wikipedia is not the right place to have articles about new theories that go against consensus. But when the theory is obvious and not fringe and from a reliable source (expanding Earth theory comes to mind) I see you hawkishly attacking it as if you are getting paid to do just that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.225.11 (talk) 03:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks, man. Couldn't agree with you more. Hopefully you will come back and sign your post so we know who you are.Thanos5150 (talk) 23:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Nope, Dougweller was correct. "Anyone who is in specialized fields involving manufacturing of anything from homes to electronics will say that to maintain a precision level of that magnitude on that large of a scale would take generations without proper modern measuring gauges and machining tools." etc was personal conjecture and discussion not related to article improvement. The IP comment above is also a personal attack on an editor, since it is entirely a rant about how the IP percieves the editing behaviour of another editor rather than a discussion about article improvement.--Saddhiyama (talk) 09:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Pyramid and it's ratio to pi and phi

Pi is vaguely described as "(perfect) circle's circumference to its diameter".

sqrt(16/(lim_(n->infinity) F_(n+1)/F_n)) = sqrt(16/((sqrt(5)+1)/2)) = 4/sqrt(phi) = approx 3.1446055110296931442782343433718357180924882313508929506596 .. It is based on the fundamental Fibonacci sequence (the F there is Fibonacci number).

Why do we nowdays still use the Pi's arithmetic value 3.141... instead of the "natural fibonacci/phi based" Pi value 3.144... even the ancient egyptians used and which does fulfill the description of pi; (perfect) circles circumference to its diameter?

"From here things begin to get really interesting . As can be seen, BC above is equal to one half the length of the pyramid's side. Therefore, the perimeter of the base equals BC x 8, and in relative terms this equals 0.618034 x 8 = 4.9443. The relative height of the pyramid is 0.78615, and, if one uses this length as the radius of a circle, then the circumference (perimeter) of that circle will also be 4.9443. Also, perhaps more important factor, is that the length of side OD (0.78615), when multiplied by 4 yields an amount (3.1446) that is almost exactly equal to Pi (3.1416). This finding means that the 38010' right triangle offers a unique and most interesting point of intersection between the Pi ratio and the golden ratio phenomenon. How this unexpected agreement comes to be is that : As we saw in the 38010' right triangle, 0.618034 ÷ 0.78615 = 0.78615. This means, that 0.618034 = 0.78615 x 0.78615. Therefore, 8 x 0.618034 is the same as 8 x 0.78615 x 0.78615; As we also saw, 4 x 0.78615 is a very close approximation for Pi . Therefore,2*Pi can be said to equal 8 x .78615. For the circumference of the circle using 0.78615 as its radius, we then have C =2*Pi*R = (8 x 0.78615) x 0.78615 .As a result, the Great Pyramid turns out to have the same perimeter length when measured in a horizontal plane, as a square, and in a vertical plane, as a circle. " 1

There are several rumours that even nasa didn't use the ordinary Pi value in some of their lunar missions. Why?

You can solve the maths yourself: 4- 4sin²x = cos x , 0 <=x<= 2 sqrt(16/((sqrt(5)+1)/2)) at wolframalpha.com ..

.. Please add this to the original article with the pictures.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.78.247.168 (talk • contribs)

Please see WP:No Original Research. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

closed

According to the History Channel due to the high level of humidity caused by too many visitors, Zahi Hawas has ordered that the Great Pyramid is to be closed "indefinitely". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.30.46.162 (talk) 17:16, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Must be a repeat, he isn't in a position to do that anymore. Dougweller (talk) 17:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

pasthorizons

I just noticed that the Interior section of the article has a paragraph quoting a website called "pasthorizons", which claims a robot sent up the Northern Queens Shaft by the Djedi Project filmed behind the door in the shaft and found stuff. I never saw this anywhere in the news. The Djedi Project seems to be real, but there is no mention of this discovery. Is this for real? How credible is the pasthorizons publication? Wdford (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I added it, it was widely publicized at the time.

Check out their website:

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/

Bloger (talk) 18:07, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

See [1], [2] and [3]. Dougweller (talk) 08:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I added the references. Wdford (talk) 09:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)