Talk:Harold Shipman

Shipman's birthday

Google turns up hits for both January and June 14 as Shipman's birthday, hence my edit... Evercat 00:38, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Let's move it

I want to move this article to Harold Shipman. I don't think i've heard many media stories that call him by his full name not even on some article tv programmes. Thoughts? iHoshie 05:12, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

do it. Zocky 05:13, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

done. iHoshie 07:26, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Deleting questionable comments

I didn't think that it added anything to spell out the childish things that the Sun printed after Shipman's suicide. I also found no confirmation of the claim that Peter Moore is somehow helping any investigation of the suicide. --Greg Kuperberg 15:53, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Toll of Shipman's victims

Blair P. Houghton has now twice asserted that As of January 2005, investigators had raised the number considered murdered to 284 on the basis of I read it in the actual news. It's the facts. Coincidentally (?), the same month the Shipman Inquiry (referenced in the article) produced its sixth and final report and concluded that the probable toll of his victims was "about 250". Considering that the Inquiry worked for nearly four years at a cost of many millions of pounds to arrive at its conclusions, I prefer to believe its count rather than an uncited assertion from the news. -- Arwel 23:34, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More information is given at http://www.delmartimes.net/#ceren (May not be there long? I checked google cache initially). It seems the consensus is 250 though.--24.119.112.13 00:07, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The Inquiry concluded 250. This article currently states two, contradictory, maximums, of 400 and 500. I am taking them out, since they don't have citations anyway, and linking to the Inquiry. raining girl 23:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Should he be Dr?

Harold Shipman was struck off the medical register in 2002. It is not usual for medics who have been struck off to retain the title, nor for them to be referred to as Dr. Most media outlets refer to him as merely 'Harold Shipman'. Of course he is notorious for committing his crimes as a medical doctor, but that is evident in the article. I'd propose the 'Dr' be dropped.--81.104.194.27 10:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking most doctors (or general practitioners) are only Bachelors Of Medicine, so they are not entitled to 'Dr.' either. But it's a convention, and in fairness to him he was a doctor for the vast majority of his working life, and it is kind of relevant to the article. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 08:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Vera Shipman

Saladin1970 (talk · contribs) inserted (in the intro, no less) that his mother Vera was a Jewish asylum seeker. If this needs to be mentioned at all (and I don't think it does), it should not be in the intro, having no relevance at all to Shipman's claim to fame.

This is the first time I've heard anyone say that he may have been Jewish. It is obvious that he was not a practicing Jew, and have my doubts whether this is not an attempt at guilt by association. JFW | T@lk 09:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Dame Janet Smith

Dame Janet Smith was so referred throughout the Shipman Inquiry. See the front page of all its publications and of its website. Any other reference is incorrect. David | Talk 17:20, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Pension

"Shipman's motive for suicide was not established, although he had reportedly told his probation officer that he was considering suicide so that his widow could receive a National Health Service pension and lump sum, even though he had been stripped of his own pension."

Did his wife get that pension? --SGGH 08:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture needed

"was the most prolific known serial killer in the history of Britain (and possibly the world)"

Methinks this page should REALLY get a picture in it somewhere

Badcock and Harry Potter

What is with the paragraph involving Badcock in the "Trial and imprisonment" section? Is it vandalism, or was someone actually trying to convey information with it? I thought about trying to re-word it to correct the grammar mistakes and non-sequiturs but decided that I couldn't tell what it really said. Anyone know?

Jewish by Jayjg

ArbCom member Jayjg has stated that Shipman was a Jew here. Maybe it needs to be included somewhere in the article. 87.78.186.200 20:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes Shipman was Jewish, but what has that to do with the murders? Professor Boris (talk) 23:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It certainly odd, how this Monster was forgotten... Everything from the quickie trial, to silly motives, to no investigation of his partners, his staff, and so on. Where are the books, and movies? The silence on this guy is deafening. Special justice for special people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.98.132.16 (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You usually state an accomplished person as Jewish if they are, why can't that be done for a legendary mass murder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.92.242 (talk) 21:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that it's helpful to identify people as 'Jewish' where it's not notable. It wasn't related to his killings, nor does he appear to have been especially vocal about his religion. After all, they don't say Peter Sutcliffe was a methodist (or whatever) in his article, so it probably doesn't have a place here. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 08:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has list after list of notable Jewish people. Based on inclusions on those lists and the importance attributed to them, Shipman being a Jew might merit mention. He should, at least, get a mention on one or two of those lists. Or perhaps those lists should be removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.213.116 (talk) 23:13, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Err, no, I didn't say he was a Jew. Read that comment more carefully. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you did say it. [...] has, for many months, been attempting to remove any designation on biographical articles of individuals as "Jewish", particularly famous and respected people like Albert Einstein, though he apparently has no issue with it if the person happens to be Harold Shipman, the U.K.'s worst mass-murderer. That is you at least assuming that Shipman was Jewish. Are you now saying that Shipman wasn't Jewish or that you don't know whether or not he was Jewish? --87.79.41.210 (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Shipman was an agnostic, according to Brian Whittle in his Book Prescription For Murder. (Chris Henniker (talk) 19:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC))

Is Shipman serial killer world record holder?

Just wondering if anybody has beaten Shipman's score of 250? He must be in the top 5 at least? Colin4C 19:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• Whilst there can be little doubt that he is the UK national champ the exact number of his victims will always be open to speculation, as is the definition as to what exactly qualifies one as a serial killer.--Edchilvers 21:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

A title to be proud of. Do we really have to sink to the morbid level of "celebrating" him. Perhaps his wife should be awarded a trophy on his behalf. Fuck off. 89.213.56.44 21:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

• No serial killer has found to have killed more anywhere in the world by any legal system, this is easily varifiable. Elizabeth Bathory is in second place with 150-200 kills according to evidence from her trial. His proven kill count is 215, although it may be higher. Even at 215 it's more than the proven kill count of anyone else. A serial killer is a predator who commits three or more separate acts of murder in a space of a month or more. I think however we should have the article say the most prolific "modern" serial killer --Gothicform 00:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I guess that proves, we're all fucked in the head, not just Shipman...

No Shipman is definitely not the world record serial killer, Thug Behram far exceeded him, Thug Behram killed more than 900 victims. Wooyi^{Talk, Editor review} 01:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

• Though the original question by Colin4C is pretty peurile, I think there is something of academic interest behind it. It might be worth comparing Shipman to another doctor, John Bodkin Adams, who was thought by pathologist Francis Camps to have killed 163 patients between 1946 and 1956. Adams however first aroused suspicions regarding his activities in 1935, which would therefore suggest he could have rivalled Shipman's numbers. (See: Pamela V. Cullen, "A Stranger in Blood: The Case Files on Dr John Bodkin Adams", London, Elliott & Thompson, 2006. Page 636) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malick78 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Bodington Hall

I have removed an unreferenced mention of Bodington Hall added by a single-edit IP. The only google hits I can find are mirrors of WP. WP:RS welcomed. Mr Stephen 21:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Concurrent vs. consecutive

Regarding Ironman's change on November 19: I believe "consecutive" is the correct term in this case rather than "concurrent" (15 consecutive life sentences). No one can literally serve life 15 times, but nonetheless, I believe that is the correct terminology. Just doing a quick online search, I've found references to Shipman's "consecutive life sentences" on NY Times, BBC and Time magazine. Does anyone have more expertise on this terminology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingerwiki (talk • contribs) 00:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Concurrent is used by the BBC, Telegraph, and it's also backed up by a trial transcript. Consecutive doesn't generally make much sense with life sentences, although whole life tariff sentences are quite rare anyway. Concurrent sentences mean they are served at the same time, for example if someone received a twenty year sentence for armed robbery and a five year sentence for possession of cocaine, they would serve their sentences at the same time. If the sentences were consecutive, the prisoner would first serve the twenty year sentence, then serve the five year sentence (or vice versa). Hope that helps, and based on the trial transcript "concurrent" is correct. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 00:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A trial transcript works for me; thank you!Gingerwiki (talk) 02:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Shipman's real total

Most estimates I read think Shipman killed over 500. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Boris (talk • contribs) 23:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reference to 'Jonathan King' song about Shipman

Jonathan King is just someone else who is in denial about his own guilt. He is a convicted sex offender who will do anything to maintain his own distorted public image as a man who has been misaligned. The mention of Jonathan Kings 'song' has no relevance to the article at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.219.22 (talk •) 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Inquest?

"After his trial, a BMA inquest chaired by Dame Janet Smith..." Erm, wasn't it a government inquiry? Where does BMA and 'inquest' come from? Malick78 (talk) 14:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Early life

Come on Wiki .... what the Hell is all this stuff about Shipman liking boats? And a plastic boat being found in the intestines? What's the source for this? She was cremated without an autopsy according to the Shipman Inquiry website. And the reference (5) is to a rather sick and poorly done video on YouTube.

No wonder Wikipedia gets a bad name at times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.119.184 (talk) 11:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Apologies ... forgot to sign the post labelled 'Early life'. It was me whingeing. Stiggoblin (talk) 12:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the same person doing this - I've reverted it 5 or 6 times. I would try to get the IP banned but I don't know how. Malick78 (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Cultural reference section

I have reinstated this - see argument in Talk:Fred_West#Does_pop_culture_trivia_belong_in_a_serious_article_about_a_murderer.3F. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 08:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Number of victims

In the lead of the article its states, in the first paragraph, that "He is the most prolific known serial killer in history with 218 murders being positively ascribed to him" and in the third paragraph it states "Shipman had probably killed about 250 people, of whom 218 could be positively identified." could this be clarified. Assuming he had exactly 250 victims, does that mean that 32 victims could not be identified (32 unidentified/able victims) or could not be positively ascribed to him (shown that he killed them)?

Also the second point I would like to make is that under English Law you are innocent until proven guilty so even though there may be all the evidence in the world to show that he did murder the victims he was only found guilty of murdering 15, so he can only be said to have had 15 victims, the others should be identified as "alleged victims", It's an important distiction to make (I realise that he his dead, but even so the rules are pretty strict on this.). Could the article reflect this distinction between "alleged" and "actual" victims? 124.169.112.178 (talk) 07:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

You might want to reflect on the findings of the Shipman Inquiry: http://www.the-shipman-inquiry.org.uk/ . Also, the "innocent until proven guilty" thing is a rule of law, and one that applies to the living. We don't generally apply it to the dead. After all, it would be stupid to write a biography of many historical figures (eg Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin) from the presumed viewpoint that they are all innocent of any crimes that are alleged against them. Let's just be sensible here. There's been a long inquiry into Shipman, we can refer to its findings, notwithstanding that he is not here to answer the allegations. Hibbertson (talk) 13:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I am reading "the good doctor"

I am reading the book about fred shipman. I found the book to be a great insight into a very disturbed individual. I just wanted to see what there was the net about him and found this. Anyway read the story it is well written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.75.194 (talk) 22:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Superficial charm

I think it is worth mentioning that Shipman (like many psychopaths) oozed superficial charm and consequently many of his patients thought he was a nice, kind and good doctor. --Penbat (talk) 18:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Proportion?

Is it true that "A high proportion of prisoners with whole life tariffs or very long sentences want to die"? It sounds obvious but there's no citation. I would assume they'd be more concerned with being released but I may be wrong. I think the statement needs more proof and precision than naming two other serial killers, especially when you consider that very few of these people confess to their guilt. This is also the case for prisoners on death row in the states; almost all will still be insisting they're innocent whilst they are being strapped up on their last day. Although I'm not sure if that's quite the same as life imprisonment, it shows that they didn't want to die. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.190.238.246 (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Only British doctor found guilty of murdering his patients...Really?

On Wikipedia there is a section on William Palmer, a doctor who was found guilty of murdering people. Are we sure the above is correct, because it is a pretty strong claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A Taxed Mind (talk • contribs) 10:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I think this depends upon the definition of Doctor: if you take Doctor as meaning MD then I suspect that the claim holds. Palmer was an MRCS (sorry don't have ref to hand, but just google William Palmer and MRCS). Now this MRCS ws NOT the modern day MRCS (loosely a postgraduate qualification for Doctors aiming at a career as a consultant) but a junior medical qualification at a Lower level thn an MD. IHowever I suspect that the distinction was never very often observed:for example in Conan Doyle's Hound of the Baskervilles I remember that Dr Mortimer was an MRCS and modestly says that he is not a Doctor "but a humble MRCS", but is always referred to as Doctor. 109.150.13.0 (talk) 09:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)