Talk:Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau

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Someone needs to add the names of the poets who made the two verse translations. --Doric Loon 15:45, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think someone who speaks Welsh should add a "pronunciation" version so boring old English speakers like me who enjoy learning random national anthems can more easily sing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.29.203 (talk) 02:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the point of including 'translations' 1 and 3, they are not translations, but alternative English-language 'versions' set to the same tune. Translation 2 does at least give a 'flavour' of what the song is actually about for curious non-Welsh speakers.

I might have a stab at giving some idea of pronunciation. Even though I speak Welsh (badly) as a second language, I must confess that I still sing 'Moy hen-lad vur-naddoy urn an-oily mee', although I know that this will give people seizures up north :-) OwenD (08Sep2005)

Argh! Bloody hwntws! :) -- Arwel 16:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

LOL...'Glad bayrth-er kantoryon, en-woggyon o-vree'. 'Eye goo-rol ruffle-whirr...... (just squeal when you've had enough :-) Yackie-Daa! OwenD

Gives me blydi seizures too 'ychan, and I'm a hwntw myself ;).GarethRhys 16:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Parodies

Does anyone know the parody "My hen laid an egg and I had it for tea"? That's the only line I know. -Nathan 02:14, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

correct lyrics?

Surely there is a mistake in the 3rd line of the Welsh lyrics? The line should be "Ei gwrol ryfelwyr", not, as printed, "Ein wyrol ..."? Try a Google search if in doubt! Hogyn Lleol 20:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Not really. "ei" refers to Wales (as feminine), so "Ei gwrol rhyfelwyr" is fine. AledJames (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the mistake that Hogyn Lleol noticed almost two years ago has been corrected in the meantime. —Angr 12:40, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake! I misread it as being a suggestion that "ein wrol" should be there. My comprehension skills really are lacking these days. AledJames 20:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Tros / Dros ...?

Whilst I am aware of the grammatical reasons for mutating "tros" to "dros" in the line "Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed", why do so many sources (many more, in fact) quote it as "tros"? What was originally written? How does one determine the "definitive" form? Hogyn Lleol 16:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Having looked at the original manuscript - see(http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/hi/newsid_3160000/newsid_3163400/3163495.stm) he in fact wrote "Dros rhyddid gollasant ..." - i.e "rhyddid" was not mutated (as it should be) and it seems to only have one "d" anyway, and "gollasant" was mutated when it shouldn't be. I know that some rules of mutation have changed over the years, but not these, I believe. May the debate rage on ....

Hogyn Lleol 16:37, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, further to my comment above, "Dros rhydid gollasant eu gwaed" is much clearer in this link - http://digidol.llgc.org.uk/METS/EJA00001/frames?div=82&subdiv=0&locale=en&mode=reference

Hogyn Lleol 16:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I have substituted "Tros" in observance of the Wikipedia convention of employing the most widely used form. While versions with "tros" and "dros" both exist -- and neither is, in that respect, incorrect -- "tros" is much more frequent and is also used in the Welsh Wikipedia, by BBC Cymru, etc. I agree that the oldest extant manuscript has "Dros", but there is no "rule" that says that the orthography of anthems in current use has to adhere in every respect to the spelling, punctuation, etc. first used. -- Picapica 13:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Picapica, whether we NOW say 'tros' or not, that doesn't change the anthem itself. You'll find many national anthems which use old language that changes, but that doesn't mean they stop using it. 'Dros' is what we sing, because it's what was written and adopted as the anthem. Bryn Terfel's version says 'dros' too if you listen to it. -- Dancraggs 15:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I see no point in getting into a reversion war with you, D. -- especially not on Dydd Gwyl Dewi -- but I would just point out that my argument, if you read it again, had nothing at all to do with what "we now say" (my italics); and even if it had I would be reluctant to allow Mr Terfel's particular pronunciation to determine Wikipedia policy! -- Picapica 20:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Point noted; but if you re-read MY argument, I stated that we as the public, and even professional singers (using Bryn Terfel as an example) sing 'dros', and therefore by definition it is the more frequented version. I've only once seen it written 'tros', and many times as 'dros'. Again, your argument for the revert to 'tros' is noted, but in addition we have comments above with people unsure of that reversion, and overall the general feeling seems to be better with 'dros'. (Gawd, all this over a letter. :-P)

I find it somehow reassuring that the author of the National Anthem had as much trouble with mutations as I do! -- Arwel (talk) 18:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to reopen this debate with a few questions/points: 1) Could a Welsh speaker please submit the grammatical reason that 'tros' would be mutated in this sentence? 2) The original manuscript contains errors in the lyrics and should not dictate the current spelling (it does not perfectly match the modern melody either - see the rhythm for 'annwyl i mi'). 3) It is still an issue that the lyrics on this page contradict most reliable sources. Unfortunately, a person asserting that it is sung or normally written one way is not a reliable source. If we need to consult and list authoritative sources then that is what should be done. Danlea (talk) 12:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Translations - literal & loose

I see that there has been debate on this before, some 6 months ago.

The 1st free translation is extremely free, as inevitably are attempts to rhyme a piece in another language. As has been said, it gives a flavour of the anthem, and can be sung to the same tune, but that's where any similarity ends.

The 2nd piece much more resembles the wording of the Welsh anthem, but is still NOT a literal translation, again being constricted somewhat by the need to rhyme.

I feel quite strongly that there IS a place for a LITERAL tranlation (and to be honest, I think that a literal translation should have priority over any loose rhyming translations - what's the point of those anyway? (anyone ever heard one sung?) The point of any translated version is surely to show non-Welsh speakers what the words actually mean. Only a literal translation can do this.

The text of this page still has a literal translation in it, but at some point in the past it has been disabled from appearing on the screen.

May I suggest that it be reinstated, showing clearly what is a literal translation, and what are less-literal rhyming versions (which are nevertheless still interesting in their own right).

Hogyn Lleol 16:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realise that there was a literal translation hidden in HTML comments. Totally agree: we should use that as the first one instead of the rhymes-in-English version you find on tea towels. (On the BBC documentary on St David's Day, they used one of the rhyming translations too, which surprised me.) Telsa (talk) 09:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

First Performance

Under the section on the first performance of the anthem, it previously said Capel Tabor chapel. I have removed the second chapel, which seems pretty much erroneous. Surely a non-Welsh speaker can see that the Welsh word does the job well enough on its own?GarethRhys 16:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The cheating version for Anglophones

Nigel Jenkins' English phonetic comparative lyrics are amusing, but they can be tweaked to make them an even closer approximation to the Welsh words - if you can accept surrealism at the expense of some of the humour, but then the idea is not to smile anyway :

My hen laid a haddock, one hand oil a bee,
Glad bears and centurions are woggling free,
I could roll a bell here, going carpentry-mad,
Don's ruddy Goth lass, a Thai bride.
Glad, Glad, why don't you oil him, Glad?
Two more appear, a beer hops by,
O butter a hen, the bar high.

Cymru am byth! Jess Cully (talk) 16:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC) (25% Welsh)

I am an Englishman who has learnt Welsh as a second language. I think it is worth pointing out (despite the fact that it may diminish the humour) that the English Parody would sound absolutely nothing like the Welsh. It is probably also worth pointing out that the Poet appears to be a Welsh Speaker (from his wiki page), otherwise this comes across as being a rather bitter slight to the Welsh language by a non Welsh speaker. The suggestion that one might try to pull off this parody (whilst suppressing one's mirth) in a crowd of Welsh people during the anthem, should also perhaps come with the Caveat that this would be extremely rude, and would single you out for looks of bemused disgust. Imagine going to a British Legion event and singing:

"Sods paved our spacious green long live our bowling green"

How you'd be loved, what a wag! I don't think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.246.159 (talk) 12:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

To make fun of everything one doesn't understand or that's strange is just the usual English behaviour! No one can deny the English being extremely xenophpobic and of course uneducated! 92.223.57.11 (talk) 10:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Title

The title of the national anthem is Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau not Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau. If you don't believe me, take a look at Wicipedia here, the Welsh Asembly Government's 'Visit Wales' here, or even BBC Cymru Wales here. Yes, I know that sentences need a verb ('Mae'), but song titles don't. I'm reverting all the "Mae's" at the beginning of the titles on the article page (let me know if I miss any, or just go ahead and make the change). Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Concur. FruitMonkey (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)