Talk:Henry VIII of England

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Marriage to Catherine Howard 'null & void'

As was the case with Anne Boleyn, which she died of aid and killed Henry,Catherine Howard could not technically have been guilty of adultery, as the marriage was officially null and void from the beginning. This claim needs to be either explained & developed, or deleted. What point are you making? Costesseyboy (talk) 20:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The point is the following: The marriage was annulled, which is different from a divorce. Annullment means the marriage is declared as never having legally existed (which is what the 'null and void' is about). This in turn means that she can't technically have committed adultery by sleeping with her husband's groom, since said 'husband' was never legally her 'husband' in the first place and can therefore not have been cuckolded by her.--Feuerrabe (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I see no reference to this, other than the sentence in question. Something more is needed to make it clear. At what point was the marriage annulled?Costesseyboy (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it actually was annulled, we dont have a reference for this statement, it seems to be Original research on the implication that it is automatically anulled by the existance of the previous contract, rather then annulled by some action take afterwards...without a reference I find this odd, especially since catherine's own page has a statement that differs, which has 2 references which reads "Catherine herself remained in limbo until Parliament passed a bill of attainder on 7 February 1542.[19] The bill made it treason, and punishable by death, for a queen consort to fail to disclose her sexual history to the king within twenty days of their marriage, or to incite someone to commit adultery with her."Smitty1337 (talk) 08:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Smitty, it seems you are right and that marriage was never annulled. I just searched through David Starkey's book 'Six Wives', which gives a very detailed account of Catherine Howard's fall and execution and nowhere does it mention an annullment. I suggest we take this sentence out of the article.--Feuerrabe (talk) 09:40, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree, only briefly reviewed the reference but it would seem to be a valid point. Perhaps we could place a similar statement as the quote from Howard's article and maybe keep the same references? I'll wait for consensus before taking action on that however I will remove the null/void statement as it seems confusing at best and likely inaccurate or at least misleading.Smitty1337 (talk) 08:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I support that, Smitty. I think the important fact is the bill that was passed afterwards.--Feuerrabe (talk) 12:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The entry Annulment also claims that that Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled, so my correction was right, especially, I have added my sources, Antonia Fraser. Anne Boleyn's marriage was declared invalid 17 May 1536, two days before her execution (19 May 1536), so Henry VIII could not have been a widower of AB. Katherine Howard's marriage to Henry VIII also was annulled, as I added my sources, Antonia Fraser. Catherine Howard was apparently engaged to someone else when she married Henry, or had slept with another name rending their marriage invalid. Therefore Henry VIII could not become a widower of Katherine Howard, too. In the eyes of king Henry only two marriages was valid: Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr and he got a widower only once: after the death of his third wife, Jane Seymour. And please, do not move my editing before adding your sources, because I have NOT seen your evidence, yet.Borgatya (talk) 22:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You are correct that the marriage to Anne Boleyn was anulled of course. However I do own Antonia Fraser's book which you have used as a source for an anullment of Howard's marriage but cannot find any mention of it there and you did not cite a page. If Fraser mentions an anullment, please add the exact page where she does so. Antonia Fraser's book contains some mistakes in other areas, so I am sceptical of her as a source. Starkey in his 'Six Wives' goes into extreme detail on Howard's marriage and execution but never mentions an anullment. There is no mention of an anullment in Henry VIII's biography article in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography either or in the contemporary Letters and Papers of Henry's reign on British History online. Lastly, it seems to me that it was necessary in Henry's eyes to anull the marriage with Anne Boleyn, because he had a child with her and wanted to render her illegitimate. But he had no children with Katherine Howard. Any subsequent marriage after her would have been completely legal without an anullment, simply because she was dead and gone.--Feuerrabe (talk) 09:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The best reference to the annulment of Anne's marriage is Letters & Papers Henry VIII, vol.10 (1887) no. 896, 17 May 1536, which gives the following abstract of the archival source; "Sentence pronounced by the archbishop of Canterbury of the nullity of the marriage between the King and Anne Boleyn, in the presence of Sir Thos. Audeley, chancellor, Charles duke of Suffolk, John earl of Oxford, and others, at Lambeth, 17 May 1536." This calendar can be read on-line at British History Online.Unoquha (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I think we all agree that the marriage to Anne Boleyn was annulled, it's well documented. I am just doubting that there was ever an annullment for Catherine Howard, which the article now claims.--Feuerrabe (talk) 10:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 3 November 2011

I propose this editded version of the infobox be added to the article (in replacement to the current one) as I have added the marrage dates, Nowrapped and added small text to them, I think the dates should be listed in the infobox for biographical purposes.

Henry VIII
King Henry VIII after Hans Holbein the Younger, Walker Art Gallery, Liverpool
King of England (more...)
Reign	21 April 1509 – 28 January 1547
Coronation	24 June 1509
Predecessor	Henry VII
Successor	Edward VI
Spouse	Catherine of Aragon (m. 1509–1533) (annulled) Anne Boleyn (m. 1533–1536) (annulled) Jane Seymour (m. 1536–1537) (her death) Anne of Cleves (m. 1540) (annulled) Katherine Howard (m. 1540–1542) (annulled) Catherine Parr (m. 1543–1547) (his death)
Among others Issue
Mary I of England Henry FitzRoy, 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset Elizabeth I of England Edward VI of England
House	House of Tudor
Father	Henry VII of England
Mother	Elizabeth of York
Born	28 June 1491(1491-06-28) Greenwich Palace, Greenwich
Died	28 January 1547(1547-01-28) (aged 55) Palace of Whitehall, London
Burial	4 February 1547 St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle
Signature
Religion	Christian (Anglican, previously Roman Catholic)

--BV76 (talk) 01:16, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Personally, the alterations make the infobox look a little bit long, but I think that's something that should be discussed here, but the editprotected template should be used after a consensus is formed, but not before. Of course feel free to discuss here, that's what talk pages are for. :) Thanks, Steven Zhang ^{The clock is ticking....} 05:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 11 November 2011

The last sentence under the heading "Mistresses" reads "Biographer Antonia Fraser has claimed that Henry had an affair with Mary Shelton in 1535, in opposition to the traditional belief that Margaret ("Madge") Shelton was Henry's lover." It doesn't make a great deal of sense - ether Ms. Fraser is in agreement with traditional sources or "Madge" is not traditionally believed to be Henry's lover. I'd have fixed it myself, but I don't know what Mary Shelton is traditionally believed to be.

Citation request

A citation is requested for the following claim under Death and Succession: "Concurrently, Henry developed a binge-eating habit, consisting of a diet of mainly fatty red meats and few vegetables."

Also, the next sentence, "It is believed that this habit was used as a coping mechanism for stress"--I don't remember what this sort of sentence is called, but "It is believed..." is not useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spriggig (talk • contribs) 04:31, 28 December 2011 (UTC)