Talk:Hijra (South Asia)

3rd GENDER rather than SEX

Hijra is best considered a third GENDER type, not a third SEX type. Sex is biological and anatomical - i.e. Male or Female - and not subject to cultural interpretation.

Gender is a cultural construct - i.e. man, woman, Hijra. It is my understand that the Hijra are anatomically-born males who are culturally a third gender type.

When I studied this subject in undergrad anthropology I recall a fourth gender type present in India, that of a culturally-male female, which I believe is called something like 'Sādhin"— Preceding unsigned comment added by Milo rules (talk • contribs) 20 April 2006

They are people having Klinefelter's syndrome(many of them they are born that way). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.103.212 (talk) 08:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Hijras and prostitution

Social status and economic circumstances

It is hard to get sources for the phenomenon of hijras exposing themselves to tourists on trains so that they will pay them to go away. If I may offer a bit of original research [!!] exactly this happened to me on a train from Agra to Amritsar in march 2009. My Indian train companions either paid up or protested vigorously. I was flashed but the hijra (I was utterly unfamiliar with the phenomenon at the time) did not get the compensation they expected and was shouted at by a lone middle aged man until they went away. Perhaps someone can find a source that better documents the trend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.160.125.149 (talk • contribs) 12 July 2011

Hjras, Sex and Religion

My two pennorth - according my understanding, the basis of the hjra status is ascetism in the service of the goddess Bukhara Mata. I suggest that they are related to the galli of Ancient Rome (q,v). Their activity as prostitutes is because they need to eat, since they no longer have a spiritual function in this secular age. They may or may not retain their penises. They wouldn't use them for sex (they probably wouldn't work very well) but as 'feminine' people they would be receivers, as in other cultures, quite possibly intercrurally.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Uhm, is what you say actual knowledge, or mere speculation on your part? Because it sure sounds like the latter. [AR]

I cant bring to mind the original study (age telling on me I guess) but there is an account by Serena Nanda in Herdt's Third Sex, Third Gender

Male ascetism in Hindu religion is seen as the opposite to female sexuality. However those who can't or don't want to engage in procreation can become renouncers. Bukhara Mata and Cybele are related to earlier mother goddesses. I don't have personal experience of their sexual activity, but it is a matter of practicality. Plus as women prostitutes, they would be receivers. Also anal intercourse may be taboo.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

However - another question. What is a temple prostitute? My understanding is that a prostitute provides sex for financial (not spiritual) return. User:Chevin 14:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, a good dictionary might help you there.[AR]

Well I did actually look it up in Wiktionary.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia has an article on it, too. So-called temple prostitution or religious prostitution is an age-old custom, spread through large parts of the world, and certianly not a simple subject. AlexR 14:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

It still sounds like a term conjured up by a sex phobic anthropologistChevin

This is an interesting and thought provoking discussion. However, it does not prove that certain rules are not broken. People are people, and as is found in this subculture, there are many different disciplines of life. None of which can be grouped as either of you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.18.234.125 (talk) 06:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Reference to Kama Sutra

The section on history says "The ancient Kama Sutra mentions the performance of oral sex on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras." Citation is needed here, as I did not find this in the Kama sutra when I looked it up. -- Sudarshanhs 16:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I think they are referring to this passage, though temples are not mentined. AxelBoldt 20:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I have read many translations of Kamasutra. Nothing is mentioned of Hijda Prostitution in temples. The only remote reference is of such prostitution in Bath Houses [Ankush] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.3.130 (talk • contribs)

The above anon user deleted several sections. I restored and referenced them, but left out references to temple prostitution (until a reference can be found). ntennis 06:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It is calumny to state that oral sex was performed on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras. There is no reference of sex being performed in Hindu temples, (except for the followers of Vamachar school of thought). The only instance of oral sex being performed on males is in bath houses where effeminate males/eunuchs used to do so while giving a massage. Read Kamasutra and any other text which you wish. You will find my assetions correct.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.3.130 (talk • contribs) December 16, 2006

Prevalence of prostitution

Is it known to what extent hijras works as prostitutes?

2009-08-07 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

I agree, there is no citation to support the claim that "many" hijra are "Male Prostitutes" or "Male Homosexuals". Does not the fact that hijra are castrated mean that using the word "Male" so many times is inaccurate? HeyFK (talk) 22:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

You have made two misunderstandings here. First, It is not known to what extent hijras are actually castrated. Secondly, gender is determined by self-identification and not what genitals the person has. What I wonder is: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-14 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide diffs for the contested edits please, otherwise it is difficult to see what the problem is. Similarly, if you feel that information is wrong, we need to be sure that what is written is accurate and verifiable; so can you provide the sources that will substantiate what you are arguing for/against. A link is the easiest way, where possible; but where you are saying something is (or is not) said in a text, can you provide a quote that details what you are saying, alongside the reference with page number. Otherwise, we are dealing with opinion, and it is not possible to have the text reflect opinion, it needs reliable sources.Mish (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I should correct myself. Different passages make different statements about the prevalence of genital modification among hijras. So I personally don’t know how common it is. The idea of gender being self-identified was adopted by me to solve the problem of transsexualism. Anyway, this is a distraction. I have to repeat my question: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.146.16 (talk) 09:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of, there is some discussion about true hijra and pseudo-hijra further down, and if I understood this right 'true hijra' is a historic religious vocation, while pseudo-hijra are seen (by true hijra) as those who do not have their genitalia removed, can be married to women and have a family, engage in homosexual prostitution for profit, sometimes grooming children in a similar way to how beggars operate in India. These pseudo-hijra act as women, but are not necessarily self-identified as women, while true hijra act as women, live as women, but self-identify as neither man nor woman (i.e. as hijra). Then there are those who would be equivalent to western transsexuals, who have some form of genital surgery or castration, live as women and identify as women - my understanding is that this is less common in India. So, from earlier discussion, it seems important to differentiate between these types of hijra, rather than saying hijra are one thing rather than another. Finding accurate figures to determine the proportion of which exist in Indian society? I'd love to see them, but I don't see how that could happen. I use the term true hijra and pseudo-hijra here because I cannot think of a better one - true hijra use the term fake themselves, I use pseudo not in a derogatory way, but to signify something other than that which is true.Mish (talk) 09:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Lack of Neutrality

The social status and economic circumstances section is not neutral. There are no citations, however the article states that hijras aggressively panhandle and expose themselves to those who do not donate, and appear uninvited to perform at birth ceremonies and will curse the baby if they are not appropriately recompensed. These statements, especially without citations, appear to me to be offensive and biased and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.229.178.141 (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I do not fully understand your complaint.

You may be suggesting that the statements are true, but that they are poorly written and the facts need to be presented in another way.

Or you may be questioning the veracity of the statements, without a complaint to the neutrality of the writing.

Or you may be doing both of these.

I mean this in the nicest way possible but the summary you have written describes the popular perception of hijras and is to me good information. Something which your summary is missing is the concept that people in general want these things to happen. I have no citations for this just now so there is a verification problem but I cannot support your claim of of a violation of WP:NPOV without more explanation from you. Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Arabic root

The article has a number of errors but the one I shall highlight is the term Hijra being linked to Arabic word for immigration Hijr. The person who inserted this is totally mistaken as the letter r in Hijr is not the same r as in Hijra - in Urdu as well as in Hindi there are two different letters to represent the different sounds. The r in Hijra is transliterated in India by the letter 'd' hence Hijda. The sound for the r in Hijra is known as hard r and this also exists in Urdu so there is no room for confusion except for the person who erroneously linked Arabic Hijr with Urdu/Hindi Hijra because the two words have totally separate etymology. This needs urgent correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.221.103.31 (talk) 23:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone seems to have found a reference explaining a connection. You seem to know what you are talking about, but since the statement is sourced, I think it is best to get one more opinion on the matter. I tagged that line as "dubious" and I propose that we wait for a week before making a change to give time to anyone else to comment. If no one comments then I will or anyone else should remove the statement. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)