Talk:Hip hop music

Puerto Rican vs "Latino" American

With all sources provided, claiming African Americans created Hip Hop. I am Nuyorican - mother is black (Brooklyn born), father is Puerto Rican. I am 39, born in Brooklyn. From my experience is paramount, African Americans and Latino Americans mostly (Puerto Ricans) created Hip Hop. Nostalgia - The brothers created the wheels of steel, the scratch, the mix and the stealth of the mic; the Puerto Ricans created the B-boy style, the b-boy dance (beats, rhymes, the party and life of the struggle). You cannot confuse this! Its simple. HipHop was created because people were starving to make ends meet, And to deal with it, we created hiphop to to mzke in life! How Ironic! From the govenment cheese to getting a pair of pumas, with a little bit of flair and frontin in your crew, thats the way it was.

we have advanced, but still struggle as of people. I Believe another culture will emerge and HipHop will reinvent itself out of the struggle as it once did 36 years ago, history will repeat itself.

As we struggle in 2010 with a failed economy, hiphop will transform into the standard of struggle, rename as something else, we will see.

R. Marrero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.126.154 (talk) 06:25, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please watch the user with the IP 87.11.xx.xx, the IP constantly changes the opening from Puerto Rican to "Latin American". The reference specifically reads puerto Rican immigrants had influence on hip hop. It is clearly misleading to suggest all of latin America had influence on USA hip hopSourcechecker419 (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Latin Americans are immigrants since 1940-1960's, in the Bronx there have been many Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Colombians, etc since then. So the merit it's not only for Puerto Ricans. The reference is "LATINOS in Hip Hop to Reggaeton", Reggaeton music born in Panama, it has many latin american influences, but it got officialy famous with puerto ricans "reggaetoneros". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.5.188 (talk) 10:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The main source, Jeff Chang's Can't Stop Won't Stop, doesn't just specify Puerto Ricans, so it should be "Latin Americans" in the article. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:07, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Umm..Actually Reggeton music isnt Hip-Hop per say. Hip-Hop is widley known as an indiginous American artform like Jazz, Country music, R&B, etc. To say Mexicans (or any foriegn latin cultures) had any influence on traditional hip-hip is lightweight outrageous. You could arguablably say puerto ricans played apart but even most of them were of African slave descent (indistingishable from blacks). "Latino" probably should just be taken off altogether an put into the "reggeton" section. I also think Sourcechecker has a point. Saying all of Latin America influened hip-hop is like saying because Emeinem was a big star, all of Europe takes credit for hip-hop. There really is no such thing as "latino culture", latin America composes of several unique culture. It article should really focus on the lineage of the people who created hip-hop, not ambigous cultures. I strongly ask everyone to watch this youtube vid for an objective view on the orgins of hip-hop done by 20/20 in 1981. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WonNbeBwXD468.55.205.186 (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The reference is "Latinos in Hip Hop to reggaeton" so you need to admit that there have been some "Latino" as Jamaican influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.11.32.80 (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

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Reggaeton should not be in this article. Hip Hop is a influence of Reggaeton, and should be linked from the Reggaeton page to here.

This was started by African Americans. The latinos influences came later. This really needs to be edited. This applies to breakdancing as well. Everyone else came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

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Latinos have nothing to do with the creation of Hip hop. It was started by inner city blacks, with Jamaican influences. There contribution to hip hop came later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

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So now you take out African Americans,and black people in the article all together lol, who ever created this page has an obvious agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 06:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Two articles

This article and hip hop need to me merged at some point. Most of this article could be incorporated in the history section of the other, maybe leading to a new History of hip hop article. Zazaban (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Casper's Groovy Ghost Show Record

It was released in 1978, but is it hip-hop? Some sources say it was released in 1980. Are they different versions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.130.146 (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Latinos were not that influential . stop reaching .

'To say Mexicans (or any foriegn latin cultures) had any influence on traditional hip-hip is lightweight outrageous' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.227.101 (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Stylistic origins

Stylistic origins are also Jazz and Blues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.144.39.201 (talk) 09:54, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

If that's the case then find a source for it. I've already removed 'jazz' from the stylistic origins in the infobox about five times. Jazz was obviously an influence on jazz-rap, but that's a fusion genre, it doesn't count as an influence on original hip-hop, surely? Matthew Fennell (talk) 23:56, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Hip-hop breaks come from funk, and funk was heavily influenced by jazz. I'll just assume that this is a result of good-natured ignorance on your part. It would be more constructive to source this than revert it as it is obviously true to someone knowledgeable of the genealogy of american music.216.96.229.49 (talk) 14:50, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

"Was heavily influenced" does not mean "originated from". And original funk music was as far from jazz as it could be. Anyway, it does not matter what you, I or that other guy thinks. What matters is what reliable sources say, and they say rap music originated from funk and reggae. Netrat (talk) 09:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Latino Ameircans

The creation of HIP HOP came from African Americans with Jamaican influence ( Kool Herc Dub music). There was NO latin influence. Even in the article is list the creators of the musical art form. There is no debate here. You can add Latinos to LATER influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 09:30, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I've added about seven times to the opening paragraph that Latino Americans were influential in the birth of hip hop, albeit not as much as African Americans or Jamaican Americans. I have also provided a source for this. However people keep removing it and I have to keep putting it back. Should the opening paragraph mention that Latinos helped birth hip hop, or not? I think it should. Matthew Fennell (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Not really. Whether a few lke it or not, hip-hop music was an Afro-American creation. Yes, so-called "Latinos" (I say so-called "Latinos" because Latino is not a "race" and it's really a European ethnic group that applies to Italians, but that's another topic) made the music, but it's creation, it's founding, was by Afro-Americans and a Jamaican of African descent named DJ Kool Herc. B-Machine (talk) 16:13, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The article has a reliable source cited that specifically says, "First of all, Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". Wikipedia goes off reliable sources, and that's what the reliable source says. The only way you're going to be able to change it is if someone finds a source that says that Latinos haven't been there since the beginning. But even then you'd only be able to say that there is some debate over whether they have or not, you couldn't remove them entirely.

So the Latino bit should 100% stay. Crateescape101 (talk) 20:14, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Latinos never helped create anything.If you look at music what influenced hip hop its all black music ,Jazz , soul , disco , blues , reggae .It was never started by the latino community or helped started by the latino community .Yes the latinos jumped on it early but it was already created by black americans and black jamaicans. Matthew you need to stop trying to edit black culture because you don't like bits of it .Don't ever try to put your false fantasies about what latinos did.Ima edit this page and I dont give a fuck about no white or latino gotta say about that

To the Idiot what said that wikipedia has reliable sources because someone said latinos have been there since day one smh . If you want "sources" look at this article where people clearly explain how rap is a black american artform and culture started by blacks. http://www.daveyd.com/addissablackart.html

To the person above and to Darkman - I personally don't have an interest in whether Latinos did or didn't have anything to do with it... but wikipedia goes by verifiable and reliable sources.

So far there is a reliable source saying Latinos "have been in the hip-hop scene since day one". You're going to have to find a reliable source (that means NOT a youtube video or a rant off a blog) that states what you're saying.

The the burden of responsibility is on you to find the sources so that they can be cited. Someone has already found one that supports Latinos being there for the creation. That means for your opposing view to be included you need to go to the books and reliable magazine articles and academic studies and find quotes that say what you're saying. Crateescape101 (talk) 10:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

There are these studies all over the internet. I mean you basing this wiki article off one book with biased views obviously from latinos who want to take credit in the creation. The sad thing is that even the wiki article shows the truth. The people who started and created the music, the dancing , the scratching, the raping were all black people.

Here is ONE example. From a "credible" source.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/09/afrika-bambaataa-hip-hop-music-business-entertainment-cash-kings-bambaataa.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

We have a credible source saying Latinos were there from day one. It's going to be very hard to remove their inclusion now because of that source. The source you provided does not state that it was only black people and no Latinos.

You'd need to find a credible source that says that ONLY black people created it. And even then, because of the other source already there, we could only logically change it to "some sources argue that only black people created it, while other sources suggest Latinos also contributed to its creation". Crateescape101 (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Thats ridiculous, your own wiki shows the first creators of the artistic style, and there are only black people in his group stated in the article. If thats the case there is no credible source saying only white people invented the computer. Since Black people were "there" around the time the computer was created we can claim we invented the computer....

We can see the obvious racism under wiki. I'm waiting for you all to say white people and latinos invented blues music as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest if latinos are included via source as a secondary influence on Hip Hop , it be worded Nuyoricanor something to that effect instead of Latino, Latino is to expansive in this case, because from reliable sources it is obvious that African Americans and Jamaican Americans were the primary pioneers of Hip-Hop from the Bronx,and the main Latino population there are Nuyoricans at the time that Hip-hop evolved,like i said Latino is very Expansive in reality it includes people of different Ethnic backgrounds racial backgrounds etc etc to just say Latino is giving credit to White Cubans from South Florida credit for Hip-Hop or Native American/Chicanos Mexicans from East LA etc etc--Wikiscribe (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

We have a reliable source (the only source cited on the part in question at the moment) that says: "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". That is very specific and clear.

If there was a reliable source that said white people invented blues music, then it could be cited in wikipedia because on wikipedia "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth"WP:VERIFY. If a reliable source says it, then it is so, that is how wikipedia works. But of course you're going to be hard pressed to find a reliable source that says that white people invented blues, so I don't know why you'd even suggest that, because I don't know anyone who claims that.

With this article, we have a source that has a very clear quote in there - "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one". It doesn't say Nuyorican, it doesn't say that Latinos contributed later... it says "Latinos have been in the hip hop scene since day one".

If you have an opposing view to the reliable source, then the responsibility is on you to find a reliable source that clearly states the opposite. BUT because we already have a reliable source which says Latinos were there from the beginning, then the best you could do is say that there are opposing views on the matter. You can't undo the fact that a reliable source has said Latinos were there from day one. Crateescape101 (talk) 23:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure that is understandable and i do know it is not about truth,but i have found a reliable source that sites New York Ricans more specificaly,[[1]],so with this source in hand,i suggest we add it to say Puerto Rican or Nuyorican rather than the generic Latino, i mean unless you can find sources that suggest for example White Cubans from Miami influenced hip hop or Chicanos from East LA i.e do you have other sources that site any other latino group was instrumental in starting Hip hop music???Because when sources are more specific they say Rican--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Cool, that is a good source... the source that is already there specifically says "Latinos" though, so I don't think we have to narrow it down because we already have a source that says Latinos in general. Crateescape101 (talk) 08:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

A "source" stating that they have been there since " day one" does not mean they had anything to do with the creation of Hip hop. Black people have been in this country since " day one" yet we are not credited for the invention of the computer, and various others. What about this source makes it valid? In the same source you have Latinos stating they came after they say black doing what they are doing. BIg Pun in an interview stated this, Crazy legs in an interview stated this. The latin Kings first B boy group stated this. THESE ARE VALID SOURCES. Even the wiki shows only black people as the people who created the artform. So the inclusion of NONE black people is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Guys, you can't just claim sources have said things, you have to find a specific quote in a book, magazine or other reliable source (NOT a youtube video), and cite it in the article for it to be included in wikipedia.

I just came across a quote from African American scholar Michael Eric Dyson, in a published book where he says Latinos were involved in the creation: "Hip-hop's original makers and producers, African Americans and Latinos". It doesn't get much clearer than that and from a very reliable source who has written numerous books on hip-hop - I have cited it in the article. Please come back with some citations from reliable sources in order to move the discussion forward if you don't agree.

Crateescape101 (talk) 12:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

How is one person used as a "source". There are countless sources written by African American scholars.

The Hip Hop Generation: The Crisis in African American Culture - Bakari Kitwana

Why White Kids Love Hip Hop: Wangstas, Wiggers, Wannabes, and the New Reality of Race in America

-  Bakari Kitwana

African Identities : Race, Nation and Culture in Ethnography, Pan-Africanism and Black Literatures by Kadiatu Kanneh

Afrikan Mothers: Bearers of Culture, Makers of Social Change - Nah Dov

Encyclopedia of rap and hip-hop culture - Yvonne Bynoe

The list could go on, the point is that Latinos have nothing to do with the creation of the artform. Yea they were there and participated like everyone else AFTER it was created.

Using Dyson as a "main source" is ridiculous.

Even wiki clearly state its African American creation, and Jamaican ONLY.

You cant just use , oh this one person said they were "there" so they get credited for being apart of its creation.

And again, the creators of all the "pillars of hip hop" rap, dance, Dj, b boying, etc are all black. Which is even stated in this wiki. The contradictions here are endless.

Kitwana argues that the truth is much more complicated. The hip-hop generation–a cohort he limits to African Americans born between 1965 and 1977, but which could well apply to youths of all colors who came of age with and after the Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force’s “Planet Rock”–has been shaped by globalization and unemployment, incarceration and racial profiling, gender wars and nihilism. Gone forever are the days when “the struggle” was simply about fighting segregation. The hip-hop generation is beset by economic dislocation, environmental racism, AIDS, inadequate schooling, inner-city disinvestment, culture wars, and ya don’t stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, well find a quote from those books you just listed that mentions the original pioneers ONLY being African American - the quote you just listed is about the "hip-hop generation", not about the "original makers and producers" as the Dyson quote is... the hip-hop generation is a term Kitwana uses to describe people who grew up with hip-hop, not who made it.

There are now two sources in the article that back up there being Latinos there at the beginning and no citations for what you are claiming. Crateescape101 (talk) 14:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

(Black Noise: Rap Music and Black Culture in Contemporary America (Music/Culture) -

" rap music is a black cultural expression that prioritizes black voices from the margins of urban America. rap music is a form of rhymed storytelling accompanied by highly rhythmic, electronically based music. It began in the mid 1970s in the South Bronx in New York City as a part of hip hop, an African American, and Afro Caribbean youth culture composed of graffiti, breakdancing, and rap music." (black noise - 2)

Aurthur - Tricia Rose) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 14:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Images

There were absolutely no images in the article after the '80s, so I've added some. Article looks a lot less sparse now. Zazaban (talk) 21:41, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, a few of the sections in the late '80s were excessively small, so I've expanded them. Zazaban (talk) 22:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Innovation Section

Far more influential than any of the artists listed in this section, is the overlooked "new age" hip hop group Definitive Jux which rose to fame in the 2000's featuring the talented Aesop Rock, CEO EL-P, Mr Lif, Vast Aire from Cannibal Ox, etc. Also other producers like RJD2, Blockhead, J Dilla, etc had a major effect on hip hop productions because they incorporate a lot of experimental/soul/jazz/funk sounds that had never been used before.

In short, the innovation section totally disregards some of the major influential figures in hip hop music over the past decade and a half. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.113.143 (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That particular section is only about the last four or five years, and mainly alternative hip hop. Zazaban (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

'hip hop' or 'hip-hop'

Throughout the article, the genre is referred to both as 'hip hop' and 'hip-hop'. For the purpose of consistency, which should it be? Luksuh (talk) 05:12, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not just in this article that those inconsistencies exist. In fact, I found in most instances, hip hop was chosen over hip-hop. However, the most highly recognized authority on music charting, Billboard, uses the term Hip-Hop in the chart name devoted to this style of music. Billboard's R&B/Hip-Hop Chart

I'm not sure if this is where this should go, but I would propose that the word hip hop be changed to hip-hop globally, based on the above reference.--There is nothing civil about Civil War. 18:44, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

"Hip-hop" is probably more appropriate. -Reconsider! 07:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Considering there are millions of sources that use both forms of the word, I don't see how one can be chosen as more correct than the other. — ξ^xplicit 23:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I vote for changing the article name to Hip-Hop music. When referring to "hip hop" as a genre of music, influential publications and charting authorities print it as "Hip-Hop". Like someone said above, Billboard sets this precedent. You'll also see "Hip-Hop" on iTunes, Amazon, and Last.fm. VIBE magazine/network's slogan is "redefining hip-hop." 'Nuff said. bllix (talk) 04:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Encyclopedia Britannica and AllMusic spell it as "hip-hop", not "hip hop". Netrat (talk) 10:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Hyphenated (readable) and uncapitalised (usual), hip-hop seems the intuitive option. Rothorpe (talk) 11:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Opposes - as "real publication" use the "proper word"

• Terence McPhaul (6 May 2005). The Psychology of Hip Hop. iUniverse. ISBN 978-0-595-35152-7. http://books.google.com/books?id=qjK05PVnnOkC&pg=PP1. 
• Sherry Ayazi-Hashjin (January 1999). Rap and hip hop: the voice of a generation. The Rosen Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-8239-1855-3. http://books.google.com/books?id=oLPu5L8Ye6oC&pg=PP1. 
• S. Craig Watkins (15 August 2006). Hip Hop Matters: Politics, Pop Culture, and the Struggle for the Soul of a Movement. Beacon Press. ISBN 978-0-8070-0986-4. http://books.google.com/books?id=SwjMm2CJaIAC&pg=PP1. 
• Nelson George (31 May 2005). Hip hop America. Penguin. ISBN 978-0-14-303515-2. http://books.google.com/books?id=7TRApef2zW4C&pg=PP1. 
• Emmett George Price (15 May 2006). Hip hop culture. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-1-85109-867-5. http://books.google.com/books?id=Q84TiHcqDqcC&pg=PP1. 
• Bakari Kitwana (29 April 2003). The hip hop generation: young blacks and the crisis in African American culture. Basic Civitas Books. ISBN 978-0-465-02979-2. http://books.google.com/books?id=7zaU7F-lRPkC&pg=PP1. 
• Tricia Rose (2 December 2008). The hip hop wars: what we talk about when we talk about hip hop--and why it matters. Basic Civitas Books. ISBN 978-0-465-00897-1. http://books.google.com/books?id=PuxOLsxrs-sC&pg=PP1. 
• M. K. Asante, Jr. (1 September 2009). It's Bigger Than Hip Hop: The Rise of the Post-Hip-Hop Generation. Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-312-59302-5. http://books.google.com/books?id=Ss25HHcDF7cC&pg=PP1. 
• Anthony Kwame Harrison (28 August 2009). Hip hop underground: the integrity and ethics of racial identification. Temple University Press. ISBN 978-1-4399-0061-1. http://books.google.com/books?id=iODfczZhfN4C&pg=PP1. 
• G. Craige Lewis (30 August 2009). The Truth Behind Hip Hop. Xulon Press. ISBN 978-1-60791-916-2. http://books.google.com/books?id=WGhA-SP4My8C&pg=PP1. 
• Mickey Hess (2007). Is hip hop dead?: the past, present, and future of America's most wanted music. Greenwood Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-275-99461-7. http://books.google.com/books?id=AzRFxdOvAw0C&pg=PP1. 
  • Moxy (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

What's that supposed to mean? That there are no examples of "hip-hop"? Rothorpe (talk) 20:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I was unclear - The majority of peer reviewd type publications use Hip hop thus as per WP:COMMONNAME the title is correct from what I can see (I am no expert). Its clear that hip-hop is used by web sties and books as-well, but is simply outnumbers by Hip hop titled publications. Moxy (talk) 22:24, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for detailed reply. Yes, pop music publications are notoriously inconsistent about this kind of thing, and there must be plenty of examples of 'Hip Hop', 'Hip hop', 'hip hop', 'Hip-Hop', 'Hip-hop' and 'hip-hop'. I still think the last is best for Wikipedia. The hyphen makes it one item, and there is no need for capitals. Rothorpe (talk) 23:11, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

criticism

Someone should add a criticism section.--FifthCylon (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

For what reason? Other music genre articles (e.g., Jazz, Rock music) don't have criticism sections. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if a "criticism" section or article fits well in an encyclopedia, but its true that Jazz, Rock, Hip Hop and Rap have all had their highly vocal critics. of course, we now look on most criticism of jazz and rock as narrowminded puritanism, but there absolutely are elements of all these music genres open to criticism: themes, musical simplicity, commercialism, etc. Criticisms can be included in various sections as appropriate. I think people like Bill Cosby[2], bell hooks[3] and Larry DeWitt[4], among hundreds of other notable thinkers, deserve to be heard here. Though its about the culture, not the music, Misogyny in hip hop culture (acknowledging problems with this article) may have appropriate content to add, such as the author Tricia Rose's comments in the aforementioned article, and in other books.[5]Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:19, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Bill Cosby is not a notable thinker, he is an entertainer. A comedian. He does tricks for people, he is not studious. I have a feeling the other people you mentioned aren't notable thinkers either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 22:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Revamp

While the article is relatively comprehensive, I think it needs some re-structuring and copy-editing. Also, the 2000s section should be converted to prose rather than consisting of a list of miscellaneous artists. -Reconsider! 12:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 2 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:

• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=B6sxsa93gi23a
• http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A34rp283c054a

--CactusBot (talk) 19:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC) 730 Rap - Rap Music online and free download — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.134.110 (talk) 23:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Origin of the Term

A. No dates are given in connection with the term 'Hip Hop' origin; origins imply dates. B. Origin of the term is cursory...origin of the genre is vital. C. Rap (music) redirects here...Rap music existed long before common use of the term Hip Hop. D. Rap music, as it existed for a generation in Detroit pre-1980, was NOT Hip Hop. E. Hip Hop grew out of Rap...softer than Rap, incorporating more traditionally melodic section to make a piece more palitable to a general audience. F. As Hip Hop is a child of Rap, Rap and it's history ought appear in a non-redirective article of its own. Good Luck — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.87.230.113 (talk) 12:03, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

++

someone add jump rope rhymes into stylistic origins of hip hop music. supported by:

New York Ricans from the hip hop zone By Raquel Z. Rivera, p.38 (in the bottom)-- 178.123.229.129 (talk) 12:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction states that hip-hop music is distinguishable from rap music and cites a source which says absolutely nothing to that effect. Is anyone checking sources here? I think many people coming to this page might be looking for information on wikipedia as to what distinguishes rap music from hip-hop music. This information is very prominently displayed and completely unsourced.216.96.229.49 (talk) 14:54, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Terminology

So, we have Encyclopedia Britannica, AllMusic and Harvard Dictionary of Music all saying that the genre of music is call "rap", while "hip-hop" refers to subculture as a whole. According to these obviously reliable sources, there's no such genre as "hip hop music" other than "the backing music for rap" and a synonym for "rap music".

If you disagree, you better have some sources that are at least as good as Encyclopedia Britannica, AllMusic and Harvard Dictionary of Music. Netrat (talk) 10:02, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• The hip hop music vs. rap music discussion occurred some time ago, which is why "rap music" now redirects to "hip hop music." I don't recall Allmusic being a reliable source per RELIABLE. As far as other "obviously reliable sources," you're hanging your hat on one of many Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia. But let's assume that EB is correct; they still define hip-hop as "the backing music for rap," as you stated. So, if there's no such genre as "hip hop music" other than "the backing music for rap," it's still a genre. But then, this is still a logical fallacy at best, and a somewhat lazy definition at worst, as the definition concedes that hip hop music as a genre exists outside of "rap." Of course, we realize that there exists clearly primarily instrumental hip hop music that is not suitable as "backing music for rap," including: "Hip Hop, Be Bop (Don’t Stop)" by Man Parrish; "Chinese Arithmetic" by Eric B. & Rakim; "Al-Naafiysh (The Soul)," and "We're Rocking the Planet" by Hashim; "Salsa Smurf" by Special Request; "and "Destination Earth" and other songs by Newcleus. Further, as discussed in the article, the DJ existed and created music within the culture before the MC/rapper, and was initially more prominent than the rapper. For these reasons there are separate articles on "hip hop music" and Rap. -RoBoTam^ice 13:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

• Left out of the above discussion was the Oxford English Dictionary's etymology of "hip hop":
  

Etymology: hip , reduplicated with alteration of vowel as a jingling refrain (see quots. 1979, 19822, 1984), perhaps influenced by hip adj.; compare bebop n., hop n.2... orig. U.S.

a. A youth subculture, originating amongst the black and Hispanic populations of New York City, which comprises elements such as rap music, graffiti art, and break-dancing, as well as distinctive codes of dress.
b. The music associated with this subculture (emphasis added), characterized by freq. politically inspired or motivated raps, delivered above spare, electronic backing, and harsh rhythm tracks. Also attrib. or as adj. Cf. rap n.2 8c.
1982 N.Y. Rocker Jan. 28/4 Hip-hop DJ's can repeat ever-shorter phrases‥with a little nimble-fingered action on the rim or the label.
[1982 N.Y. Times 3 Sept. c4/6 He [sc. D. J. Hollywood] phrased to the beat of a funk record and paced himself with a repeating refrain, usually‥a variation on the nonsense formula ‘hip, hop, hip-hip-de-hop’.]
1983 Time 21 Mar. 72/1 This subculture, nicknamed hip hop, is about assertiveness, display, pride, status and competition, particularly among males. Clothes are not only a part of this offhand cultural statement; they are a kind of uniform for cultural challenge.
1984 S. Hager Hip Hop 109/2 Hip hop—funky music suitable for rapping (emphasis added); a collective term used to describe rap/graffiti/breaking/scratchin'. The term was invented by Starski, who used to chant: ‘To the hip hop, hip hop, don't stop that body rock.’
1985 Buzz Aug. 24/1 If your youth club is full of skinhead and hip-hop fans they're not going to be interested in a heavy metal band!
1987 New Statesman 27 Nov. 28/3 John Ellis' The Social History of the Machine Gun‥traces this accessory of gangsters, terrorists and hip-hop poseurs from its 18th-century birth.
1989 Q Nov. 13/1 Since the demise of disco and the early '80s fad for ‘blue-eyed Soul’, there has been no mainstream dance music style—hip hop always retained too strong a racial identity (emphasis added) to make serious inroads.
-199.173.225.33 (talk) 14:40, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

The hip hop music vs. rap music discussion occurred some time ago, which is why "rap music" now redirects to "hip hop music."

I know. This discussion has not come to any consensus. Wikipedia is a work in progress and it still has many mistakes that need to be fixed. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't recall Allmusic being a reliable source per RELIABLE.

I don't recall Allmusic being an unreliable source. Tons of music articles refer to Allmusic. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as other "obviously reliable sources," you're hanging your hat on one of many Errors in the Encyclop?dia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia

Are you saying that Encyclopedia Britannica should not be considered a generally reliable source? Few would agree. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

they still define hip-hop as "the backing music for rap," as you stated.

So what? This does not automatically mean there's such a genre. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

So, if there's no such genre as "hip hop music" other than "the backing music for rap," it's still a genre.

Original research. No reliable source defines such a genre. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Of course, we realize that there exists clearly primarily instrumental hip hop music that is not suitable as "backing music for rap," including: "Hip Hop, Be Bop (Don’t Stop)" by Man Parrish; "Chinese Arithmetic" by Eric B. & Rakim; "Al-Naafiysh (The Soul)," and "We're Rocking the Planet" by Hashim; "Salsa Smurf" by Special Request; "and "Destination Earth" and other songs by Newcleus.

Anything that "we realize" is a original research. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Further, as discussed in the article, the DJ existed and created music within the culture before the MC/rapper, and was initially more prominent than the rapper.

This does not automatically mean there's such a genre. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Left out of the above discussion was the Oxford English Dictionary's etymology of "hip hop": b. The music associated with this subculture (emphasis added), characterized by freq. politically inspired or motivated raps, delivered above spare, electronic backing, and harsh rhythm tracks. Also attrib. or as adj. Cf. rap n.2 8c.

Well, I assume Oxford English Dictionary is just as reliable as Encyclopedia Britannica. Please provide a link to an online version that would proof your clim. However, it still seems that primary meaning is "subculture", not "music. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

N.Y. Rocker Jan. 28/4 Hip-hop DJ's can repeat ever-shorter phrases..with a little nimble-fingered action on the rim or the label.

1. This is not a definition of a genre. 2. It does not even say the genre is called "hip hop". 3. It uses "hip-hop" spelling. Netrat (talk)

1982 N.Y. Times 3 Sept. c4/6 He [sc. D. J. Hollywood] phrased to the beat of a funk record and paced himself with a repeating refrain, usually..a variation on the nonsense formula ‘hip, hop, hip-hip-de-hop’.

1. This is not a definition of a genre. 2. It does not even say the genre is called "hip hop". 3. It uses "hip-hop" spelling. Netrat (talk)

1983 Time 21 Mar. 72/1 This subculture, nicknamed hip hop, is about assertiveness, display, pride, status and competition, particularly among males. Clothes are not only a part of this offhand cultural statement; they are a kind of uniform for cultural challenge.

1. This is not a definition of a genre. 2. It says hip hop is the name of subculture, not the name of a musical genre. Netrat (talk)

1984 S. Hager Hip Hop 109/2 Hip hop—funky music suitable for rapping (emphasis added); a collective term used to describe rap/graffiti/breaking/scratchin'. The term was invented by Starski, who used to chant: ‘To the hip hop, hip hop, don't stop that body rock.’

1. Can you prove this is a relibale source? Can you proove this source is better than Oxford Dictionary of music and Encyclopedia Britannica? Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

1985 Buzz Aug. 24/1 If your youth club is full of skinhead and hip-hop fans they're not going to be interested in a heavy metal band!

Completly unrelated and does not support your clim. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

1987 New Statesman 27 Nov. 28/3 John Ellis' The Social History of the Machine Gun..traces this accessory of gangsters, terrorists and hip-hop poseurs from its 18th-century birth.

Completly unrelated and does not support your clim. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

1989 Q Nov. 13/1 Since the demise of disco and the early '80s fad for ‘blue-eyed Soul’, there has been no mainstream dance music style—hip hop always retained too strong a racial identity (emphasis added) to make serious inroads.

1. This is not a definition of a genre. 2. Can you prove this is a relibale source? Can you proove this source is better than Oxford Dictionary of music and Encyclopedia Britannica? Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Bottom line: You did not provide a single counter-argument to what I wrote:

1. Oxford Dictionary of Music defines genre as "rap music".

2. Encyclopedia Britannica defines genre as "rap music".

3. If you disagree, be sure to reference a well-established dictionary or encyclopedia that explicitly defince a genre of music as "hip hop" and not "rap".

4. It has to be a defenition, not a single occurence.

5. The only reliable source mentioned by you is Oxford English Dictionary. If you cab post a scan of a page or a link to online version that would support your claim, "hip hop" should be added as of of the names of the genre. Netrat (talk) 08:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Additionaly, some sources like online magazines cited in the introduction sections were questioned. You did not answer why do you belive that they are good enough for encyclopedia - but still removed tags. Netrat (talk) 08:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• • Netrat, I appreciate your point of view. Please let me correct my hasty reply regarding reliable sources; Encyclopædia Britannica and Oxford English Dictionary (and to a lesser extent, AllMusic) are tertiary sources, just as Wikipedia is. This means that they ALL are works in progress, and subject to error--and Encyclopædia Britannica's handling of hip hop music is discussed as as one of the many errors found within it, including the logical fallacy of calling hip hop music "rap," when hip hop music exists that has no (or is not suitable for) rap vocals [6]. That is not original research, that is a verifiable fact. Oxford English Dictionary defines both the genre of music and culture as "hip hop" [7] instead of "rap;" so we have two equal tertiary source that contradict each other. Per Wikipedia:Secondary, secondary sources are more reliable than tertiary sources like Encyclopædia Britannica and Oxford English Dictionary, such as "Hip Hop: Scan the history of Hip Hop music" by the Sun Sentinel, found here [8]. Of course, primary sources are to be avoided when possible, such as opinions of people with a first-hand account. I look forward to working with you; I'd be glad to submit the issue to WP:3O if so we can come to some sort of agreement on this. -RoBoTam^ice 13:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Tertiary sources says: "Policy: Reliably published tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, especially when those sources contradict each other. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. Wikipedia articles may not be used as tertiary sources in other Wikipedia articles, but are sometimes used as primary sources in articles about Wikipedia itself." So I see no problem with using EB, OED or ODoM in this article. Additionaly, no one provided a proper academic secondary source that would give a definition to either "rap music" or "hip-hop music" as a genre. EB and ODoM do provide such definitions. Netrat (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

"Since the genre's first recording in 1979, hip hop music rose from a small cultural movement to a global phenomenon." HIP HOP HISTORY, Sun Sentinel, December 8, 2004. Secondary source. Yes? -199.173.225.33 (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Not verifiable. Post an URL so others could check the article you are refrenceing. I guess you are talking about http://www.sun-sentinel.com/broadband/theedge/sfl-edge-n-hiphop,0,3806040.flash however... Not reliable This is a publication in an online glossy magazine. Can't be a reliable source. Does not give a definition It just uses the term. It does not expain what they mean when they use the term. What we need is an academic paper that would clearly define the term. Both Brittanica and Oxford Dictionary of Music do this. Netrat (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The URL was posted already. Clearly, per WP:Reliable, the Sun Sentinel newspaper is an edited, peer-reviewed secondary source: Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria. Brittanica and Oxford Dictionary of Music have one position, Oxford Dictionary of English and Merriam Webster gives another. [9][10] They are all still tertiary sources. Note that the above-stated requirements and definitions of "reliable" that you list are not quite in sync with Wikipedia's. As for reliable secondary and tertiary sources, "Icons of Hip Hop: an Encyclopedia of the Movement, Music, and Culture, Volume 1," presents yet another view, stating, in part: "Rapper's Delight" also introduced mainstream listeners to the terms rap and hip hop...the meanings of these two terms have been debated...Both terms however are used to describe the music...To distinguish between the two forms, hip hop music is often used to designate between a song that holds true to hip hop's original aesthetic...and the term MC, as opposed to rapper, is often used to designate a hip hop vocalist who holds true to the same aesthetic."[11] Copyright's paradox By Neil Netanel: As the practice caught on, hip hop music, the interplay of rhythmic speech over prerecorded beats, vocal segments and melody lines, grew to become a significant...[12] Rhythms and rhymes of life: Hip Hop music is an eclectic type of music, known for its bricolage of sounds and beats, but also for its bricolage of text fragments. [13] Again, this is the reason that WP has one entry for hip hop music, and another entry for rapping. One can reasonably claim that they are either the same or different, but would be on much more shaky footing contending that hip hop music either doesn't exist as a genre, or is not supported by reliable citation. -199.173.225.33 (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Since when daily newspapers are considered to be peer-reviewed ? Netrat (talk) 12:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

As for your quoatation from "Icons of Hip Hop: an Encyclopedia of the Movement, Music, and Culture", it clearly says: "Both terms, hip hop and rap, however, are used to describe music. To distinguish between the two forms, hip hop music is often used to designate a song that holds true to hip hop's original aesthetic rather than appealing to a pop audience".

Further on the same page it says: "Ideological distinctions aside, however, rap music is an inextricable part of hip hop culture".

Unless you are ready to split the article into two with one describing J Dilla and Madlib and another one describing Run-D.M.C. and Jay-Z, ideological differences should really be put aside. Not to mention the impossibility of sorting "true underground warriors" VS "sell-outs" and everthing in between.

So I beleive that for the purpose of this article term "rap music" and "hip hop music" shpuld be used as synonyms, just as your source suggests. Netrat (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Please know that I take no issue with "rap music" used as a synonym for "hip hop music." My objection was simply to the editing that reflected the stated opinion that "there's no such genre as "hip hop music" other than "the backing music for rap." That is one component of the genre, but not the totality, and not even what the genre began as, as the article's cited material details. I do think that this discussion shows that the "rap music vs. hip hop" conflict deserves greater discussion within the article, either under "Origins of the Term" or under a seperate section. -RoBoTam^ice 11:10, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I've read what Tuf-Kat posted at [14]. This is a textbook example of original research: he posts a quotation from EB and then speculates what IN HIS OPINION is wrong with it. His opinion (or my opinion) has no value for Wikipedia. Unless reliable sources say so, it cannot be in a article. Netrat (talk) 14:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• • Addendum: I just noted that most of your replies above asking "can you prove this is a relibale source/can you prove this source is better than Oxford Dictionary of music and Encyclopedia Britannica" were directed at excerpts of Oxford English Dictionary's etymology of the word "hip hop." All three are tertiary sources. -RoBoTam^ice 13:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Hip hop and Faith

An interesting article for citation on Faith & Hip Hop:

Rapper injects faith into hop-hop By AMIE STEFFEN, amie.steffen@wcfcourier.com

http://wcfcourier.com/entertainment/music/rapper-injects-faith-into-hop-hop/article_fba0103f-503e-5468-9cc4-f3dac2ad76f1.html

Rap Music

I think we should rename the page to Rap music. --Spidey665 | contribs | 02:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No we shouldn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.29.132 (talk) 15:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)