Talk:History of Poland (1945–1989)

Pacification of Wujek

Just started an article. --HanzoHattori (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Creation of an ethnically homogeneous Polish nation (1944-1950s)

While I supposed the first blanking of the section to be an accident by user:Piotrus, the immediate second blanking by user:Tymek cannot be explained that way anymore. What's going on here? Skäpperöd (talk) 18:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

This new section which appeared in my watchlist has several problems. First: fewer references than standard for the FA article. Second: repeats parts of the article found in other sections. Three: seems too detailed for this article. Thank you, hope you get my point now. Tymek (talk) 19:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record: my first blanking was not an accident, I saw the same problems as Tymek did, and I agree with his analysis above. This section has no place in this article (however do note that I've incorporated some of what was added in it in other sections of the article - which does mention border shifts, population changes, and creation of a homogeneous Poland). On the other hand, I'd suggest moving most of your section to relevant sections of historical demography of Poland.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

reply to (1): If you are concerned about the FA-status of the article, you need to be more worried with the section missing if you want the article be a comprehensive, stable and neutral one. Post-war Poland saw large scale expulsions and resettlements of various ethnicities that went on 5+ years, she was central playground of the largest ethnic cleansings in modern European history. So far, I doubt you possibly disagree this issue being included properly (according to its notability) in the detailed subarticle Polish history 1945-1989. For your concerns about the sources: I used two sources to add inlinerefs to possibly disputed facts within the three paragraphs I added. If this really is below standard, the gap cannot be that deep, tell me how many sources per sqm would please you and don't just blank. Additionally, I linked the main articles, of which the section is more or less an abstract. These main articles are not unsourced either.

reply to (2):repeats what parts?

reply to (3):Not at all, rather most details are spared here, the reader can use the linked main articles to get these infos. What details do you think are given an undue weight? Skäpperöd (talk) 19:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: hadn't seen your recent additions while writing the above Skäpperöd (talk) 19:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Re 1&2: the info is not missing, it is presented in due weight. If you disagree, please present here in detail your arguments as to what info is missing and why it should be included. Again: demographic and territorial changes are discussed and at least two paragraphs, in chronological order. And your version had a lot of unreferenced claims. Each sentence should be referenced, if possible.

Re 3: the current article has a chronological structure. We have no sections dedicated to territorial changes, population changes, culture changes and so on - those have their own, separate articles (Territorial changes of Poland after World War II or Culture in People's Republic of Poland, for example). Again, I invite you to expand the historical demography of Poland with detailed info on Poland's demographical changes.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The article (without the section) states: After WWI, the minorities were all but gone, referenced by Zayas, now this reference just slipped behind that sentence because you deleted the sentence that formerly was after this "FA-style information" (?!). Chronological and included? The "wartime devastation" paragraph says nothing except the ridiculous statement mentioned above. The next, "Communist power (1945-1948)" paragraph - nothing.

Within the "Bierut (1948-1956) finally one half paragraph. "Millions of Poles transferred from the Kresy territories east of the Curzon line annexed by the Soviet Union into the new Western and Northern Territories east of the Oder-Neisse line, which the Soviets transferred from Germany to Poland after the Potsdam Agreement. By 1950, 5 million Poles had been settled in what the government called the Regained Territories and the former German population was expelled. When the 1947 Operation Wisła dispersed the remaining Ukrainian minority, and with the former Jewish minority exterminated by Nazi Germany during the Shoa, Poland for the first time became an ethnically homogenous nation state.". No sources at all, wrong section, and really not containing the information one would expect. That is no better "FA quality" then the section I created with sources at the right chronological place from this very half paragraph. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I see nothing ridiculous in the "wartime devastation" paragraph. Can you be more precise?

Perhaps the second para should be moved from Bierut to Communist power, but it seems to contain all the relevant info: it mentions the repatriation of Poles, Ukrainians and Germans, and Poland becoming "an ethnically homogenous nation state". What more would you like to add? You are right, the para was not sufficiently referenced, I've fixed that.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I termed that sentence ridiculous because "all but gone" is a ridiculous way to describe the fate of the minorities after the war, especially since this was the only statement concerning the whole issue except the Bierut era paragraph.

Anyway, I understood you agreed on the information from Bierut era being moved to somewhere closer to 45-50 (which I appreciate, I did that myself before but got reverted:(). Yet, I do not think the paragraph as it is weights the things that happened according to their notability. Poland got involved in the largest ethnic cleansings in post-war Europe. Poland not only expelled her minorities, but also Poles settled a huge "wild west" area, thereby eg assimilating the forcefully displaced "eastern Poles" and Ukrainians, all of that in a process of 5 years for the bulk of it. Where would one expect to find informations about how this came about on wiki if not at this article? But nothing is said and if one does not look closely enough in the wrong section one even misses the few links given to get this picture elsewhere. I think this is pretty sad. A most interesting, most impacting period untold and hidden. So much for now, I do not intend to engage in an edit war with Tymek and you and heck nows whom, I'd rather get you to think if the way the history of your country is presented here is the most honourful. I would like to read here how that Poland actually looked like in the late 40s and 50s. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"Where would one expect to find informations about [this]"? Not more than a brief overview in the general "history of..." article. Details go in subarticles: mentioned historical demographics, expulsion/reptriation of Poles/Germans/Ukrainians and also in the Regained Territories article. Or perhaps we can figure out a name for a dedicated subarticle. But this is not it.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I for now will settle for the minimum compromise that we have achieved here, that is to at least move the paragraph I created the debated section from to its proper chronological place. While I still think the issue is covered not well enough here, I instead of expanding at least got the wikilinks in that link other the articles on this matter, along with some minor rephrasing to get these links in - the visible space consumed is about the same as before yet there is more information accessible now. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Polish war losses

There is a problem with the number of Polish war losses in the article. The article says "over 6 million", while the sources don't say "over".

Furthermore, the 6 million has long been overcome by modern research. As Ingo Haar explains, this is due to questional methods regarding the underlying population balance. Eg Polish victims were inflated at the expense of Jewish victims, Poles who adopted Soviet citizenship were counted as dead, etc pp.

According to Haar, Wl. Bartoszewski already publicly corrected the number of ethnic Polish deaths down to two million. Haar further says with reference to Madajczyk that the current estimate including Polish Jews is at five million with downward tendency.

Haar says the high numbers are inflated for political reasons- they were used to justify the west shift of Poland among other things.

The USHMM gives 1.9 million ethnic Polish victims.

The expert for Poland of Die Welt confirms the political motivation in inflating the Polish war dead, and says that "most historiens" expect the real number be at 4.5 million. A decree of responsible Polish secretary of state Jakub Berman of 1946, directed at the respective scholars, reads: "The number of killed is to be fixed at 6 million." Historian Gniazdowski postulates that this number was chosen to equal ethnic Polish and Jewish deaths.

The "Program straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod okupacją niemiecką" has verified 1.5 million deaths as of June 2009.

I thus expect this edit to be restored: [1], reliable and verifiable sources for all the above were already included in this edit. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)/20:50, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to see this edit as anything but "retaliation". But assuming good faith you might want to note that the sources you provide state "at least", not "at most". I think the number most commonly found in research (no, not communist or anything to do with Berman) is 5.9, including both ethnic Poles and Jews. And yes the ranges for the break down are from 2/4 to 3/3. There's nothing here that is contradictory.radek (talk) 20:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It is sad that you see it as retaliation if you abundantly use a source and I read this source from the beginning and enter more from it.

Furthermore, you are wrong thinking that the breakdown changed and not the total. The very source you used yourself numerous times, Haar, makes it clear that the "new" total is 5 million. The USHMM also says 1.9+3 and not six. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

What's sad is omitting the crucial 'at least' that's found in the source. Last time I checked the US State Dept. and other provided sources were reliable. It's not like the members of the US State Dept. or Piotrowski are ex-Nazis or right wing extremists or something.radek (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Where did I say so. It's not like I deleted the 6 million, I only added from sources you considered reliable elsewhere.

Haar does not say "at least", but says five million with downward tendency with reference to Madajczyk. The USHMM says "at least 1.9", right, but in contrast to what you suggested above, I did not "omit" at least or add "at most", but added " 1.9 to two million ethnic Polish and 3 million Jewish victims".

What exactly do you dispute? Skäpperöd (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's a (German...) and recent (30/08/2009) report on what's a reliable estimate of Polish casualties: "The Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) said its researchers now put the figure at between 5.62 million and 5.82 million rather than the estimated figure 6.028 million used in communist-era Poland." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:08, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Consolidation of Communist power (1945–1948)

Unless anyone can help me find it elsewhere, I think a lot needs to be added here: Much of Poland was in anarchy at this time, plus there was a civil war between the residual AK fighting Communists in the forests, as well as general lawlessness and looting in which around 10,000 Poles died, including the 50 or so Jews killed in the Kielce pogrom. This 'postwar civil unrest' may even merit an article of its own. -Chumchum7 (talk) 22:34, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Misleading redirect

Also, the redirect from Polish Provisional Government should not come here, but should go do a disambiguation page, giving the reader 4 choices: the Provisional Government of the Republic of Poland, or Polish Provisional Government of National Unity, or State National Council or this article. -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:48, 2 April 2010 (UTC)